BS: Pelosi

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:12 PM

GUESTs, you are a collection of nincompoops. The woman hasn't taken office yet, and won't until after the first of the year. The whole bunch of you have no idea of what she plans or what she will or will not do, and yet you're attacking her on the basis of your particular penchant for anger and hatred. For Chissake, you'd all bitch and complain about a free lunch!!

I just heard an interview with Gore Vidal this morning. He was asked about impeaching Bush, and his response was that there is plenty of reason for impeaching him, but we shouldn't really worry all that much about Bush. "He's only the organ-grinder's monkey. If you want to impeach anyone, it should be the organ-grinder himself. And there is plenty of basis. Cheney is the champion of all war profiteers and he's managed to pour immense amounts of money into the coffers of his company, Halliburton, with no-bid contracts related to a war that he had a hand in starting. His holdings, which have increased hugely over the past couple of years, are being held in trust for him until he leaves office. That's blatant conflict of interest and it's illegal. He's guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. That's an impeachable offense."

Various GUESTs would have us concentrate on vengeance to the exclusion of ignoring what really needs to be done.

I don't give a damn about vengeance. Yes, it would be very satisfying on a visceral level to hang all the miscreants by the thumbs. But one likes to maintain the illusion that we are modern and civilized. We no longer assassinate our political opponents as they did in Renaissance Italy. As long as we have them safely stashed out of the way where they can't do any further damage, let's get on with what needs to be done. Cleaning up the mess they've made.

History will consign them to the trash-pile.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:20 PM

Pelosi had lunch with Bush today and Howard Dean has said there will be no impeachment. The Democratic party is the party of individualism and progressiveness, so SHUT UP AND FOLLOW YOUR ORDERS.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:23 PM

Wait and see. I hope you like the flavor of crow.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:27 PM

As much as I would love to see impeachment hearings, it would be foolish. What the asshole behind the curtain fails to acknowledge is that unless she is advocating the overthrow of the democratic process of voting, what you see here is the first stages of the age of the independent voter. The Dems didn't do this because the country woke up one morning and decided to be Democrats. The base for the Dems and the base for the Repub's voted just as they always have. But increasingly in our society, we have a large group in the middle that classes itself as Independent with leanings one way or the other. But they will vote one the issues at the time. Radicalism is not their way, and the quickest way to get them to retreat to their "leanings" is to be seen as too far one way or the other. It has always been thus, but this group that ID's itself as "Independent" is growing. In politics the fact is that it is always a fight for the middle. And a significant group of these "middle" folks now call themselves Independents and vow to vote for the person not the party. A few years back when I was heavily involved in getting US Senator Debbie Stabenow elected to her first term in the US Senate, we knew that we had to have the moderate Republican and Independent women in the Livingston, Washtenaw, Jackson, and Ingham county areas of Michigan to win. That is the same dynamic that is going on now on a national basis. In many ways, the US political system will take on the aspects of a parliamentary system as this group gains. One will have to make coalitions to win and govern.

Pelosi is a very smart politician. She understood from the get go that we should not waste time on retribution. We have a window of about a year to show that we can begin the country on a path back to sanity. We have a very short time to show the world that we are still the country that once was admired. If we get bogged down in the partisan gridlock, in the interest of the intellectual purity of thought bullshit, we will just get beat in 2 years and we will have squandered a great opportunity.

Change will not come like a thunderbolt. It must come by showing that there is a better way, and making steady progress. We owe the Bushies a debt, as they have defined the issues very clearly for us, they have given us clear map to where we have to go. And we must take steady steps up that path.

Unless you are a bitter idiot who knows only failed rhetoric and offers only self righteous pap with no practical solutions.

Unreasonable hatred? Nope, don't even know this person. But I do know what she posts, and I do hate that.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:49 PM

You rationalizers. The mass murderers of 9-11, the creators of wars under false pretenses, can now be held accountable. This isn't about vengeance or payback, it's about justice. But suddenly the whiners in the "opposition" party who said they wanted justice are revealing they REALLY just wanted to be part of the power structure. What whores. Groveling at Massuh's feet when you could effect true change and achieve true justice. You people who criticized Bush's supporters for so long have now become backdoor Bush supporters yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:58 PM

I've got a loaf of bread and tickets to the circus - so why should I care "guest"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:01 PM

Seems to me, thou bitter, bitter Guest, that you don't know the first thing about successful political change. Pelosi does, and she chooses her steps and uses her powers wisely. Your kind of bitterness is too deep to be effective, or to ever find hope. I think we may see some interesting investigations showing up once January comes around. The WRONG thing for Pelosi to do is to appear too dangerous between now and then, provoking a huge backlash before she can accomplish some positive good. You choose to believe that this means such discoveries and their consequent actions will not occur, but I submit that choice is a matter of predisposition on your own part.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:30 PM

I think we need to bring back the Republicrats. This country has been ruled for too long by self-righteous demagogues, who serve only their own ideology and threat those who disagree as vermin. We need to elect representatives who will serve everyone, not just their allies. We need to elect people who can carefully craft compromises that will honestly serve the common good.

-Joe Offer, Radical Moderate-

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:40 PM

GUEST, that stuff you found out on the front lawn? Don't use it.

The Shinola is in the little round can.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:50 PM

LOL! Thanks, Don...

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 07:41 PM

"Pelosi and the Democratic Leadership Council led faction of the US Congress colluded with the Bush administration, and are every bit as guilty of war crimes as the administration. They voted to approve the policies, the budgets, and never did their job of oversight while in opposition.

Anyone who thinks things will be different under the Democratic leadership is sadly deluded. I'm not saying this is a mean spirited, vengeful way, either. I'm really deeply troubled by it."

And so am I. Give our Guest a break, and ask yourselves if you really believe that the career Dems in Washington do not occupy the same pockest as the career Repubs.

Don't get fooled again!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: TIA
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:26 PM

A week or two ago, Sean Hannity said "some things are worth fighting and dying for, and keeping Nancy Pelosi from being Speaker of the House is one of those things." I notice that Pelosi is about to become speaker. He'd better die soon if he's a man of his word.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:39 PM

You know what sticks in Republican's craw about Pelosi.

she is a woman.

Today W stood beside her for an interview and reminded everyone 9 times that she was in fact a woman.

If you did the Daily show stunt of just showing W's references to Pelosi being a woman back to back in quick succesion, it would be hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:39 PM

To be ,Pelosi herself reminded everyone she was the first woman speaker in US history as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:02 PM

Can I get a show of hands on how many folks want Tom Delay back???

Didn't think so...

Give the woman a chance here, okay...

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:27 PM

For internal circulation only:

Use words like "empowerment" and "sexist" where possible when discussing Pelosi. Also use words like "change" and "progress" and variations thereof to allow Pelosi time to get in goose step with us. Don't worry, Abu Grahib will be forgotten. September 11 will be forgotten. The torching of the Constitution will be forgotten by the rabble. And pound on the word "vagina" over the next few days as we toss more of our now-useless gay operatives to the press. We are ramping up to the "inevitable woman president" phase of our plan, so get out there and "empower" Pelosi and her "vagina."

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: bobad
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:33 PM

Yikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:35 PM

Same bitter old shit. All critique, no solution. Go back to your cave at the symphony.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:42 PM

GUEST, GUEST, GUEST...

Come on, my friend...

Now is the time for progressives to demand of the Dems a little payback... They know they copuldn't have pulled this off without the progressives puttin' them over the top in close races...

So, start the letter writing now and be prepared to take to the streets...

First of all, habius corpes must be restored...

Second, warrentless wiertaps needs to be put back in tha hands of FISA...

Get these 2 an' the American people will see the other crap for waht it is...

But we have to ***push*** the Dems to make these two steps and hope that in doing them the Dems will ***get it***...

Chances of happening??? Not good, but it's the only game in town right now...

So I'd emplore every Mudcatter to send a letter to the campaign office" of ther new Dems coming in and the offices of the Dems holdin' their seats and get the Dems to act as an opposition party...

This is what we ***can*** and ***should*** be doing, right now!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST,MN Monster
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:06 PM

Uh Bobert, there's more than one guest posting here, despite Big Ole Mickelf's protests to the contrary.

Frankly, I don't think any of this is nearly as simple and clear cut as people are making it out to be.

It is going to be nigh on impossible to get the Patriot Act overturned. Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, all a huge mess that will take at least a generation to recover from. Our standing in the world is shot, and will remain so as long as Bush/Cheney remain at the helm of the nation's foreign policy, and god only knows how far beyond their term. Don't forget that thing called "the foreign policy establishment" and the fact that just because the Repubs were thrown out of Congress, they haven't been thrown out of the think tanks, lobbyist offices, NGOs, defense contractors, etc. that drive the beast to it's appointments around the world.

And that doesn't even include the domestic agenda. Like if you thought veterans benefits sucked before, just wait until you see how fucking depressing it is now for returning vets. The way the entire tax system of the US has been tossed ass over teakettle, undermined our government services sector, saw our infrastructure crumble, education mandate after mandate go unfunded, the HMO/pharmaceutical monopolies...

Like Bono says--nothing changes on New Years Day. Because the sad, sorry state of affairs the US is in has been long in the making, it will be very long in the healing and mending department.

I'd like to share your optimism and enthusiasm Bobert, but for me, it just isn't there. No joy for me in the election, really, or for most independents like me.

People here do love to paint me as a bombthrower, monster, etc. because I won't play by their true blue party rules, and I speak the truth about the Democrats being knee deep in blood, just like the Republicans. That isn't a radical thing to say in a group of independent, non-affiliated voters. But they are fighting words when spoken to Democrats.

C'est la guerre.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:06 PM

Cave at the symphony. Very good. Subdued allusion to vagina. A musical one at that. Excellent. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: 282RA
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:08 PM

>>For internal circulation only:

Use words like "empowerment" and "sexist" where possible when discussing Pelosi. Also use words like "change" and "progress" and variations thereof to allow Pelosi time to get in goose step with us. Don't worry, Abu Grahib will be forgotten. September 11 will be forgotten. The torching of the Constitution will be forgotten by the rabble. And pound on the word "vagina" over the next few days as we toss more of our now-useless gay operatives to the press. We are ramping up to the "inevitable woman president" phase of our plan, so get out there and "empower" Pelosi and her "vagina."<<

Don't you guys love to see GUEST so pissed off? God, that's been a long time in coming. All the years of that smug gloating and now the petulant whining. Now you know how we've felt for the past 12 years, GUEST. How do you like it? And you know how it feels to be the winner? No, you don't! Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST,MN Monster
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:12 PM

Actually, I've never voted for a winning presidential candidate in my life, so I'm pretty damn accustomed to being on the losing side of the elections.

In fact, the first national candidate I ever voted for who actually got into office was Paul Wellstone. That was in 1992, I think. Started voting in the Nixon era.

I've been a political independent my whole life, and have never had any affiliation with either party, so I'm thinking I'd have a pretty tough time feeling smug and gloating over any election.

There was one thing that cheered me up a bit, and that was the city of Minneapolis approved IRV! Rock on!

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:18 PM

Yep, 282RA, I do. She thinks that because she uses an anonymizer (new toy and I get a kick out of it, but it isn't near as effective as she thinks) that she isn't recognizable.

Just to correct something that this person said, it isn't because she doesn't play by the rules. It's because she doesn't offer anything. A typical smartass who only knows how to criticize.

And yes, I do know there is more than one GUEST.   I also know when you are just using your old multiple identity thing. Don't you ever get tired of it?

Pelosi will make real progress. I hope she does it in a measured way which yield real results. The reason that scares you so is because your stock in trade depends on these folks failing. Not because you have a better way, because you have no ideas. But you would rather be right than see a safer world. And you are disgusting for that.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST,Nameless and loving it
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:34 PM

Good work, fellow Democrats. We won, so now it's okay for U.S. soldiers to rape children during "questioning." That's a cornerstone of the Bush approach, but we can't rock the boat because now we have an oar in the water. So ix-nay on the ape-ray. And all that other...unpleasantness. DON'T talk about the lost Bill of Rights, the unprovoked wars, etc. WE'RE in power now, and we can make lemonade out of those lemons.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST,MM
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:37 PM

Oh Mick, take yer friggin' sock puppets and go play by the freeway.

No one has any idea how to get the fuck out of Iraq. Or how to undo the damage that has been done. All we ever see on this forum is regurgitated crap that somebody saw on tv, read in their paper, heard on talk radio, or whatever.

Perpetually recycled platitudes and cliches aren't new ideas. And that is all you ever offer around here. Same old shit whether you are tilting at guest windmills or the other team.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:40 PM

And let's see..;...... the last time you came up with anything was ...... that's right, ....... never. And nice job posting as two people.

No more arguing with you. It is like arguing with Shambles. You have no relevance.

Go get 'em, Nancy.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST,MM
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:47 PM

Oh Jesus Mick, I'm just crushed you don't like me.

And what, you think the Pelosi comment is supposed to get up my nose or something? Dude, you think much too highly of your ability to impress others.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: mg
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:05 AM

I am sure she means well but she just reminds me of a denture cream commercial. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:06 AM

...a version of the ad hominem fallacy ...."you don't have any valid points because you don't have a name" ...and this usually coming from someone with a handle along the lines of "pifflepuff" or some such ridiculousness...

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:25 AM

Well, fortunately, there weren't many in the country who were as proud as of their record of virtually never backing a winning candidate--MN Monster can revel in this accomplishment.

Most people this time around seem to have decided that 6 years of 1-party Bushite rule wasn't really working out that well---and to do something about it than lob verbal grenades--they actually voted to toss out said Bushites.

And it sure is too bad that co-operation, which is what Nancy et al. seem to have in mind--not point-scoring-----is a foreign concept for the Monster.

Scorched earth is just not a good policy in government--perhaps the Monster should move to Iraq--it seems to be a popular idea over there.

Let us know how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: fumblefingers
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:26 AM

Without wanting to burst any of the bubbles here, The Democrats gained an average number of seats for a 6th year election. That's not a mandate. And, just in case you've forgotten, Nancy Pelosi is a Representative from a single Congressional district in San Fransissyco. George Bush is still the President of the United States and the Democrats do not have enough votes in either the House or the Senate to override a presidential veto.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:31 AM

As I've said before, there are only 2 possibilities--gridlock or co-operation. And it seems Nancy plans to opt for the latter. Good choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:34 AM

And on certain issues, the Democrats will have enough votes to override a veto---minimum wage hike is the obvious candidate--they can peel off enough Republicans to pass it, even if Bush were to veto it---which he likely wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:56 AM

Regarding the reference to Tom Delay above, one of Delay's last actions was to redraw the lines of the congressional district of Ron Paul. Paul is the most conservative member of congress, and this is the third election in which his own Republican party has tried to defeat him. He seemed sure to lose this time, until word got out that the NRA (National Rifle Assoc) was endorsing his Democratic opponent. The NRA rated the contender an A+ and Paul a B. But the Dem is a raving gun-grabber, and Ron Paul has the only perfect voting record in congress on gun rights. He's ALWAYS voted for our constitutional right to own firearms. And yet his own party, and the NRA, tried to defeat him. Things aren't what they seem, people. The Republicans try to defeat their best, and the NRA is in on the plan to disarm America. Fortunately Paul won by a 2 to 1 margin. He's one of the sanest minds in congress and went on record against Bush years ago with his "Neo-conned" speech. It's on the internet. Look it up and read it. And remember a Republican wrote it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 03:00 AM

IMO, it is absolutely necessary that there be congressional inquiries into the Iraq War, 9/11, Halliburton's escapades in Iraq with taxpayers money, Bush's involvement, Cheney's involvement, etc. If those inquiries indicate that impeachment is in order, then impeach the bastards. If there are NO inquiries, then America has gained nothing. It has traded one despicable Congress led by Republicans to another despicable Congress led by Democrats. Pelosi has no damned right at all to say that impeachment is 'not on the table'. Fuck her and that attitude. If there is reason to impeach Bush and Cheney for wrong doing, then they HAVE to be impeached. What kinda shit is it to say 'impeachment is not on the table'? Her political career is so important that she's willing to ignore six years of Washington corruption? Really? What crap. And what a brave new world. The elections will have traded one set of bastards for another set of bastards. Y'all go be back to square one.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 06:15 AM

With you, Peace. If only to learn from the past. But it must not be done vengefully, and inquiries should include all allegations of misdemeanours, irrespective of the parties involved.

This isn't/shouldn't be about revenge or tit-for-tat, otherwise one descends into the centuries-long vendettas of places like the Balkans or the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:50 AM

Well written Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST,MM
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:01 AM

Impeachment ain't gonna happen, though I certainly agree w/Peace that it should.

"This isn't/shouldn't be about revenge or tit-for-tat, otherwise one descends into the centuries-long vendettas of places like the Balkans or the Middle East."

Thnak you.

I've been saying this since 2000 here in this forum, only to be villified by the true blue Dems that I'm a nasty Nader spoiler, and how god damn dare I?

So who are the radicals, really? The rabid Repubs or the rabid Republicrats?

The true blue Dems here keep claiming they are "moderates" and "centrists" but they are no such thing. They are the very people driving this Balkanization of the US along ideological political party lines.

And like all ideologues who believe so strongly in their own propaganda, they believe themselves to be most righteous, and "the enemy"--their political opposition--to be pure evil.

This is the stuff that makes for civil war. Any idiot who doesn't see that isn't just part of the problem, they ARE the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:08 AM

Yo, Brucie... Settle down, my friend...

Pelosi would love to move toward empeachment but empeachment, like a war, needs to be sold... And sold slowly... I think she is playin' smart... Get some feel-good legislation on the books so that the American people start feeling better about the performance of Congress and then slowly let the investigations unravel and as the facts of the corru[ption comes to light and the public better understands fully how corrupt the Bush folks have been (and continue to be) stand back with that surprised look on her face and proclaim...

..."Danged, I didn't realize these folks were this corrupt. Maybe we need to take this a little further down the road..."

But without positive approval ratings for Congress, empeachement is off the table...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:31 AM

Screw the feelgood legislation. Repeal the PATRIOT Act. It created the "crime" of "domestic terrorism." That crime is "breaking a law of the United States or of any state." Then came the other so-called laws based on the new crime of domestic terrorism, and now, you can be disappeared in a heartbeat, tortured to death, and the same thing will happen to any reporter who reports on it. So screw the new legislation and the go-slow attitude. The Democrats either reverse what's been done or they become part of the torturing establishment. And Pelosi has said she's going to "work with" Bush. This is a simple, simple issue. Someone other than Pelosi needs to be in charge of the House Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:56 AM

Ah yes...

If only the pessimistic negative self aggrandization of purely critical thought had been more effective over the last two thousand years... maybe we wouldn't be in the fix we're in today.

Guest... you may have carried this 'be wise as a serpent' thing well past the point of obsurdity.

antidisestablishmentarianism is the (second) longest word... but in the final analysis, it's purely reactionary and disapprovingly nostalgic... kina like slash and burn forest maintenance.

Be smart. Be nice.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:16 AM

And when you launch this vengeful attack, the Repubs play the obstructionists and hold things up until the next election, scare the shit out of the Middle voters and they reinstate the neocons, where will you be? Should we then take up arms to enforce our wills? Let things come in a way that shows them a better path. Do the scorched earth policy, as appealing as it seems, and you will be in no man's land again.

There are some who post here that would like to see that.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:27 AM

Actually, yes, I do think that we need to consider taking up arms against the plutocracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:38 AM

Richard, where do you live? Haven't I heard you speak against private ownership of guns? Correct me if I am wrong.

It's easy to talk about picking up arms. You ready?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:08 PM

With respect, where do YOU live, Mick? Americans HAVE taken up arms. We're bristling with them, and I think we've shown an impressive amount of restraint in not using them against an abusive govt. The Second Amendment guarantees our natural-born right to own arms, and the framers of the Constitution put that Amendment in there so we could protect ourselves against government. Our guns are to be used not for hunting or target shooting, but to keep government honest. That's why the govt tries to disarm us at every opportunity.

The backlash against the Republican/Democrat war & anti-rights agenda was ENORMOUS last Tuesday, but the rigged vote counting trimmed it down to a small power shift. I'm a far-right conservative and I'm FURIOUS with what the Bush family has done to America. And I voted against their agenda down the line. So did MILLIONS OF OTHER REPUBLICANS. So I was pleased to see the changes, but now, the new people are turning out to be the same as the old. We need to CLEAN HOUSE. Not out of a sense of vengeance, but because it has to be done to save our constitutional republic. Being satisfied with a few R's changing to D's won't achieve anything. All of us need to put pressure on the new congress to move ahead with criminal indictments, impeachments & investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:54 PM

Mick is right. Nancy et al. have to prove they are interested in co-operation, not gridlock--or they will be out on their ears in 2008.

Impeachment talk may make you feel good--but it won't happen. To impeach and convict you need quite a bit of Republican co-operation--which won't be there. And even with the recent attack of good sense on the part of the US voting public, the balance in the Senate is only 51-49. Not enough to impeach and convict.

And the US public is not interested in vindictive behavior on the part of newly resurgent Democrats--they'd rather get some problems solved.

However, as I've pointed out elsewhere, in-depth investigations can proceed--as for instance on the question of just how the propaganda campaign that got us into the Iraq war worked. And Cheney, for instance, is in that up to his neck--or above.

Specifically we need an inquiry into the contradictions between what the Bush regime was telling the country and what the intelligence community knew at the time.

This would be very instructive--and entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:02 PM

And by following that reasonable path, you very likely may turn up data that changes the public mind and puts them into the frame of mind for impeachment. But it cannot come off as a witch hunt.

That is the problem with these nut cases. They operate from a place that says only they have the answers, instead of realizing that they have a view and have to convince others to come along. All criticism, no ideas.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM

Let's repeat Don Firth's post.


I just heard an interview with Gore Vidal this morning. He was asked about impeaching Bush, and his response was that there is plenty of reason for impeaching him, but we shouldn't really worry all that much about Bush. "He's only the organ-grinder's monkey. If you want to impeach anyone, it should be the organ-grinder himself. And there is plenty of basis. Cheney is the champion of all war profiteers and he's managed to pour immense amounts of money into the coffers of his company, Halliburton, with no-bid contracts related to a war that he had a hand in starting. His holdings, which have increased hugely over the past couple of years, are being held in trust for him until he leaves office. That's blatant conflict of interest and it's illegal. He's guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. That's an impeachable offense."

Subject: RE: BS: Pelosi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:15 PM

So investigate all those aspects. But don't call it an impeachment campaign. Call it gathering facts. And if those assertions pan out, as Mick says it may emerge that Cheney should be impeached, convicted, and removed. And by then, if you convince the general public of this, as Mick also says, there may be enough pressure to be able to impeach and convict.

But when the Republicans impeached Clinton they did themselves no favor. They realize that now.

If you can't both impeach AND CONVICT, you've wasted your time, taxpayers' money--and alienated the electorate.