Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?

Subject: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:48 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=461252&in_page_id=1770

I have seen a BBC video which also suggests that it was not an accident that the horse drowned .. oddly, it doesn't seem to be available now

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:06 PM

Another ink to the story ....

Horse drowns while being 'swum' at Appleby

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

And another - this has not nice images ...

another link

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:19 PM

Oh dear.

It was announced last night at the EFDSS do that Doc Rowe wasn't there to accept his award because he was at Appleby. No doubt he'll have witnessed this distressing incident.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: concertina ceol
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

Oh dear indeed.

I suppose it proves that tradition for traditions sake is not good. Some traditions have died out for a reason. Aspects of this event such as this should be consigned to history.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM

here is the Link to the BBC video
This takes you to a page with a link to clik on. Rather upsettingly, it siggests that the horse didn't drown accidentally.   The authorities don't seem too concerned but, thus has to be taken in context with the fact that most other reports suggest it was a trgic accident.

Personally, i am gutted, as you can probably tell by the number of posts I am making on this thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:06 PM

Unfortunately it's being treated in the same way, as when a horse dies in the Grand National.
In both cases the horse would not have died if it had not been placed in that situation by its rider.

I wonder what the headlines would have been if it had been the rider that had drowned.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:32 PM

A very unfortunate thing, but not on the same scale as the Grand National where death is regularly inflicted on horses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:33 PM

Not to mention abattoirs, of course.If killing an animal is wrong, then killing millions is worse than killing one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:43 PM

Oh for heavens sake ... drowning an animal is a different matter entirely - or do you not think there should be any animal welfare acts as long as people rear animals for eating?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:44 PM

My comment was directed with respect to your meat eating post - I agree re Grand National ... call me fickle but it's my viewpoint

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: dozy rozy
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:45 PM

I know of no traveller that would deliberately drown their horse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: folk1e
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

If it was NOT accidental, what could possibly be the reason?
Nobody in their right mind would buy a horse to drown it!
It reflects badly on the "travelers"..... publicity they could do without!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:40 PM

Look, a wonderful animal is FOOKING DEAD! Who CARES if it was 'travellers' or NOT??? The horse is DEAD because of disrespect, stupidity, ignorance, 'macho' (if so), and I don't CARE if it was Princess Anne, Her Supreme Majestsy, George Bush, Condie Rice,Joe Blow Public or Dick Francis who was riding/dunking it. The horse is DEAD.

I hope the rider/owner what whoever is caught and proscuted for at least cruelty. As intelligent as horses are, it could as well be murder. Get the courts to believe that if you will. It after all was just an animal.

You know what? In some cases, TRADITION deserves to die.

You suppose they will 'wake' the horse? They should.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:03 PM

There's a reason the Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was founded decades before the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children...

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Typical pikeys.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:16 PM

Well, thank you Brad Pitt.
Such offensive racism will really help.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

You asked what I thought in an earlier thread Blowz, so here's my answer now..sorry for the delay.

I think it should be stopped, unless changes are made.

If the RSPCA cannot man it safely and the people who are attending have no respect for horses, then they deserve to lose their fair and their tradition.

To hell with their 'charter' and to hell with them if they refuse. If they cannot police it themselves...the Travelling Families that is, then they have no right to continue it.

All animals should be treated with respect. They are NOT there for amusement or for idiots to prove how strong and tough they are. The fact that the snivelling little creep 'ran off' speaks volumes I think. If it was an accident he'd have been distraught rather than frightened. Full marks to the people who went in to try and save the horse though/

The real test now though is if they turn in one of their own. That is the true test. If they give him cover or shelter, when he should be brought to task for what he did, then they should lose all respect from others and they should have their Horse Fair taken away.

I have no sympathy with any person who deliberately hurts any animal, or child, or human being. Life is sacred and it matters not if you are a spider, a fly, a horse or the King of Siam..Everything has a value and a reason to be here. Everything has a soul. ?Everything matters.

Tradition is no excuse whatsoever for abuse and murder. Once upon a time it was a 'tradition' of sorts to watch people hang, but thankfullly we've moved on. We can also move on from The Appleby Horse Fair, unless the people concerned 'move on' and start taking responsibility. To start with NO horse should have it's head put under the water...what a disgusting, terrifying thing to do. No horse that is not 100% comfortable in water, should be taken/forced into it...and anyone, ANYONE caught being cruel to any animal gets every book going thrown at them. That's how I'd run it.

But...as I said...it's now up to the travellers themselves to behave with integrity and honour over this, for themselves and their own pride and for the soul of that poor horse too, who died for no reason that I can see, other than an out of control idiot. At least in
death, his/her soul deserves some respect and the man who did that should be accountable and have the guts to be so too.

IF he wants to prove what a 'man' he is, then come forward and face the consequences of his actions. They should throw every law they can at him and make damn sure he's prosecuted.



Blowz... if you look on the links below you will find someone to restore your faith a little....

Her name is Cathy and the first link below is Cathy's Myspace page, which is a tribute to her Mum, Susie Bundrick, who died in April this year. Susie was married to John 'Rabbit' Bundrick. She was deeply loved and greatly missed, as you'll see. Susie's the sister-in-law of Reg Meuross. She was passionate about animals, horses in particular, and she had charities going for them. Cathy is now trying to raise enough money to buy land for the Horse Sanctuary that her mother so dearly hoped to be able to get.

She has a few Myspace pages now for their various charities and we can all help raise funds for them by donating old phones and cartridges, the details are all in the second link below...

I've great respect for what Cathy is trying to do and I'm sure she would have been as distressed as you obviously are Blowz...

Thank you for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Susie Bundrick's Myspace - It takes a short while to load so please be patient

'Last Angel' - Equine Defence



Lizzie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:01 PM

>>>No horse that is not 100% comfortable in water, should be taken/forced into it.<<<

Sorry, I just need to correct that as it came out the wrong way and gives a very different meaning to the one it was supposed to.

What I meant was NO horse should EVER be 'forced' into water...or indeed, 'forced' to do anything that it does not wish to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:56 PM

Oh, gee...good. I was afraid I'd killed the thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: gnomad
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:35 AM

A horrible incident.

It seems probable to me that the offending person will get his come-uppance from the traveler community. As a group they know who he is, and they will heartily disapprove. However, like some other "communities within the community" they are more given to settling such matters internally, than to handing offenders over to more formal authorities.

I suspect that we may not hear of this man's punishment, but I would bet that it will happen, and that it may well be more severe than our system would impose.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:33 AM

We **should** hear about it though.

There's no excuse, in my book, for them to do anything else other than go public about this and reassure everyone that it will *never* happen again. They should go out of their way to let the press and the police know what is going on too.

But most of all they need to re-write the rules and stop holding the heads of horses under water. HOW the RSPCA hasn't stepped in and stopped this I've no idea, but I'll be phoning them later today to try and find out what they think and what they intend to do.

If the travellers don't come forward and do the honourable thing...then they *must* close down Appleby Horse Fair.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM

Lizzie Cornish: quote "they should have their Horse Fair taken away". Don't you think your use of the word "they" and "their" is a little insensitive in this context? It seems to me to imply that because one person, who may or may not have been a Gypsy, did something wrong, that other Gypsies should be collectively punished for it. Is that really how you think the world should be organised?
Or am I misreading your point?
    Also, at the risk of being tediously repetitious, may I point out that not everyone who goes to Appleby is a Gypsy or Traveller. There are plenty of horse traders there, not to mention ordinary rubber-neckers(even some folkies)who belong in neither category.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

Although I in no way agree with what happened .....lets get this into perspective.

This is the first time in the past 10 years that there has been a death at Appleby Fair.

This was the action of one individual ...... should all travellers be blamed or the Fair be banned???

If the police or the RSPCA find this individual he may or may not be prosecuted.

I would suggest that more horses die 3 Day Eventing or Steeplechasing or Fox Hunting yet no one suggests that their owners be prosecuted or that such events are banned.

Come on Folk - get real

This was just an unfortunate accident

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:14 AM

"I would suggest that more horses die 3 Day Eventing or Steeplechasing or Fox Hunting"

yup. They do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:29 AM

I cannot imagine anyone condoning the drowning of a horse.

Lizzie will be pressing for 3 day eventing and steeplechasing to be banned of course, and had she actually heard about them would have done so ages ago.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:31 AM

Maybe "they" will have "their" steeplechasing taken away from "them"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:34 AM

"One rider, who clearly had little ability to control the animal, took a horse in to the water, despite its obvious fear of the situation."

So, we have one idiot here.

"Howls of disgust and pleas to remove it emerged from the crowd...Cries of "Get it out" shattered the deathly silence that had descended on spectators huddled on both riverbanks and across a bridge over the water...Experienced fairgoers looked on in horror, shouting: 'Get him, get him up'...Another man then plunged in to help..."

Does this sound like those attending regarded what was happening as usual practice?


"As a crowd built up around the animal, the rider – who did not own the horse – fled among a group of other young men...Groups of angry horse owners gave chase and police radioed to officers to search the town."

Does this sound like the other fairgoers and horse owners condoned what happened?

"RSPCA officers were on the scene to monitor the washing ritual."

So the RSPCA know all about it, and monitor the practice - they haven't shut it down, which they would have done by now if they felt the risk to the animals normally warranted such action.

And the last word to an "experienced fairgoer" who witnessed the scene:

"It just takes one idiot to spoil things."

That's what it was: one stupid bloke. I hope he's caught and prosecuted. But previous comments about getting some perspective on what happened, and about the far greater risks posed to horses through racing, eventing and hunting, are entirely appropriate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:04 AM

For a little perspective - Animal Aid

No convenient label like "gypsey" or "traveller" or "pikey" to blame there.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:13 AM

Hmmm...30 horses in the past 10 years, as opposed to one in the same time period...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

"No convenient label like "gypsey" or "traveller" or "pikey" to blame there.'

Agreed - interesting how events like this bring the right-wingers out in people. The 'theirs' and 'theys' which pepper some of these posts wouldn't be out of place in a BNP leaflet.

Alienating travelling people in this manner won't help the animals either.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:29 AM

I forgot to mention, wasn't there a Lizzie Cornish who defended "wrecking" as a traditional "cornish" activity when a ship mistakenly landed at Sidmouth?

Was she any relation to the woman who is posting on this thread?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM

Would someone please tell that idiotic, holier than thou, goodytwoshoes twit of a woman, from The Ministry Of Wrecks And We OWN EVERYTHING' that she is in the land of The Wreckers down here!

Doesn't she know that Wrecker's Blood runs through our veins...and it matters not if it's a BMW bike, a box of oranges or 75 years of 'newborn' nappies...A WRECK IS A WRECK and it's cargo belongs to the people of The West Country!!!!!!!!!!

Could the person who wrote this - who clearly believes it is OK for the people of the West country to break the law by stealing - who with a decent historical perspective would know that wrecking killed people - possibly be the same person who wrote:

Tradition is no excuse whatsoever for abuse and murder.

No of course it couldn't be the same person. Could it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:22 PM

To be fair to Lizzie (if indeed it were she who wrote that), I suspect it was said with something of her tongue in her cheek tho ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: FlatbackCaper (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:38 PM

And, of course, Folkiedave, you can give us the exact sources of these "quotes", by that I mean the exact threads from where you cut and pasted the said "quotes

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:49 PM

Yes, I'm sure Folkiedave could. As you could if you searched.
I remember every word of it, and a whole lot more.
Regrettably.
It happened last February, and those who went to the Sidmouth reunion came back with tales of Sidmouth (and further afield) inhabitants indulging in this 'traditional activity'.
What they were actually doing was stealing the personal effects of people in the stressful process of emigration after a container ship made an unscheduled stop in 'Ms Cornish's' backyard.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: FlatbackCaper (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM

I am aware of the story, as I am aware that "wreckers" rights no longer exist contrary to what some people make think. Theft is theft regardless, and those involved should be, if they were not already, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as should the "gentleman" regardless of the type of person, who caused the death of the horse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: FlatbackCaper (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:02 PM

Don't let the racists get ya down, they only do it for the attention

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Exactly the point. They were both wrong. Not the whole of the people of Cornwall or Devon or the West Country, (in fact they came from all over) and not the whole of the traveller population of Appleby during Horse Fair Week. But our correspondent(s) saw them in contradictory terms. I think it is fair to point this out.

Just to help a little, the first post comes from January 25th 2007 and the second one comes from above.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:52 PM

So let me get this right....taking an orange and/or a packet of biscuits off Branscombe beach is equal to drowning a horse through malicious stupidity, or holding the heads of all horses concerned with the Appleby Fair under water because it's 'tradition' is it?

May be in your book, sure as hell ain't in mine though!


Greg...Yes you misunderstood my words.

Blowz..yes, you're right, of course it was said with humour. Sadly the ones who've followed me round for years have no humour. Nowt I can do about that though.

This thread is about the Appleby Horse Fair and whether it is 'A Tradition Too Far'

Once again, until the travellers themselves decide to change what happens, I think it should be stopped. It is one thing to take your horse to be washed each morning in the river, it is quite another to swim it out to deep water and put it's head underwater. That's cruelty pure and simple...and arrogance too, terrible arrogance!

"It is our right, as it is our tradition"

And having read numerous sites on it, the travellers/gypsies are the largest contingent of people there it would seem. They call themselves travellers, I call them that too, as that is what they choose to be called. Nothing 'racist' about that at all. Appleby is the largest gathering of travellers in this country and I'm sure they would thus regard it as 'their' fair, as in belonging to 'them'...

Why DOES English Folk Music go hand in hand with being as pedantic as some people seem to be in Mudcat? Answers on a VERY BIG postcard please. ;0)

Can't you just enjoy the music without nit-picking ALL the time? Can't you just read posts without dissecting every word, deciding that YOU and YOU ALONE know EXACTLY what the author of those words meant, when in actual fact you know sweet F&A about it...

However, I'll leave this thread now to those who think that to hold the head of a horse underwater is OK...That sickens me I'm afraid..and I for one won't ever go near Appleby Horse Fair.

Oh..and if anyone wants the number of the RSPCA, to complain, then it's 0870 5555999, and if you can get through, complain for me too would you, because I spent about 20 minutes trying to get past their crazy phone system, without any luck. I'll try again tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:48 PM

"I for one won't ever go near Appleby Horse Fair."

As I'd be willing to bet you've never visited a traditional or calendar custom in your life, that's hardy earth-shattering news.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM

Anyway, everyone here has agreed that the actions of this one stupid individual were callous and wrong. But some have tried to put what happened into perspective alongside the many deaths of horses at the Grand National alone. If you want a legitimate target, have a go at the racing industry. Not to mention the hunting fraternity.

I'd like some more evidence for the idea that the horses' heads are regularly held under water. Most of the sites I've looked at refer to the horses simply being washed in the river each day using washing-up liquid. This is also how Roud reports it (The English Year, pp 213-14)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:22 PM

I've been to Appleby a few times, Ruth - and have even rigdden in the river - swum, once - it was an amazing experience. It scares me that i had no idea how deep it was - this big shelf that is mentioned. You can bet I won't be doing that again. I've not seen horses being held under - to me, the harshest thing to watch is the really rough riding and the way the young lads thrash the horses (by thrash I don't mean whip - i mean go as fast as is possible) up and down mettalled roads - all day. This can't be good for their joints. It is the equine equivalent of doing wheelspins in a souped up motor - except most of these horses aren't souped up - they're working cobs. I know there are plenty of good dealers there - and it is a spectacle - but the younger generation, now growing up, seems to have a different edge, somehow. Bombing up and down the road might have been fine, 150 years ago when it wasn't tarmacced - but it will bugger the horses nowadays.

I hope that the travellers sort it out - I know it seems to have been an isolated incident by a stupid individual - but it casts a pall over the event. Not only for the poor horse - who had a terrifying ordeal, but it would have been witnessed by possibly thousands of people around the bridge - many children - and it won't be a hapy memory of what should have been a wonderful experience. Watching a horse drown and be dragged out on to the river bank must have been the most dreadful thing.

It is a truly living tradition, and therefore it is going to change, because of changes in the behaviour of those participating in it.
Hope it doesn't go too far down a bad road.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:06 AM

Lizzie I take it you are confessing they are your words.

When it was a west country tradition called wrecking - which let us not mince words involved dragging innocent ships onto rocks, drowning the sailors and stealing the contents of the ship you were all in favour of it. "The wreckers blood runs through our veins" you said...... Are you really from the West Country by the way?

Even when it was stealing BMW motorbikes and the possessions of people who were emigrating and could watch their possessions being looted on TV - you were still in favour of it.

But one stupid individual and you want to close down a tradition which certainly in the last ten years has done little harm to animals. To cap it all you are not prepared to close down steeplechasing where a number of animals can be put to death in one race sometimes.

Now I find that contradictory. Clearly you can live with it.

Now which calendar customs do you normally visit? Because some of them also have chance to do something stupid if you want to.

You better start making a list of the ones to avoid. Can I recommend Steve Roud's book too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:39 AM

Ms Cornish is fond of relating the tale of a drunken teenager who rampaged around Sidmouth with a sword. By a logical extension she might as well announce that people should boycott that seaside town and festival because of what happened there once. Next she'll be telling prospective visitors to Appleby to listen to a Show Of Hands CD first, thus ensuring the safety of horses and the future of civilisation.

Herga Kitty told me in another thread (vaguely about Tyne Of Harrow) to 'keep Harrow out of it' but, here it pops up again. Yes, it's where madlizzie comes from, Pinner to be precise. A North West London suburb, not the West Country.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:49 AM

So the ancient blood of wreckers does not run through her veins after all?

Well you could have fooled me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

Sometimes legality is one thing and morality another.

Wrecking a ship as such is plainly wrong.

But if a ship is sunk accidentally and its cargo washed ashore?

That cargo will (almost invariably) be insured. The insurers will pay out the insureds. Now the insures, by operation of law, own the goods. If the insurers take the goods they will be scrapped. In those circumstances scavenging is almost a morality play in favour of recycling.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:14 AM

"In those circumstances scavenging is almost a morality play in favour of recycling."

Does that include the rifling through and stealing of people's personal belongings?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:28 AM

>>Ms Cornish is fond of relating the tale of a drunken teenager who rampaged around Sidmouth with a sword.<<

A young local lad died two years ago, on the Friday before Folk Week, after being cut down with a Samurai Sword, in Sidmouth High St. at 2am one morning, by a man in his 40's. His family are still in deep grief today.

You may think it appropriate to use something so horrendous to have a sick dig Diane. I do not.

You belittle yourself ever further in my eyes, as do your 'mates' above.

And now, back to the Horse Fair...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Morris-ey
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:28 AM

The law on theft takes no account of what is insured - nor should it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:38 AM

Interesting concept Richard.

I look forward to people using when defending themselves.

"The vehicle - though brand new - was clearly abandoned at the roadside your honour, indeed I saw the owner leave it and go into a shop. Chances are it was insured, so I took it for recycling".

Do you not think it is for the owners of goods to decide whether their goods are stolen, looted, or recycled or not?

Strange concept of morality. Anyone would think you were a lawyer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:48 AM

More thread drift.

D'you know... I'm from the West Country, my family came from a coastal village with a murderous beach - I have 193 years of family records if you want the proof - but I have never found any evidence that the inhabitants ever did anything other than try to help those in trouble at sea. If a ship were ever to founder off that particular part of the coast, it was a goner - it's that dangerous.

There are records that things were 'recovered' from the sea - goods, timber, rope and sails, sailors' chests, passenger's luggage and so on... if it was perishable, it was eaten. If it was useable, it was recycled. If it was personal, at least one parish Clerk made an attempt to restore lost items to the families of the former owners who like as not, got a Christian burial in the churchyard. Wrecking doesn't run in my blood... I'd like to think that compassion does. That parish Clerk was my great, great grandfather.

Back on topic now...

As for the "intentional" drowning of a horse at a festival few non-travelling people understand - my reading of the articles is that someone took a frightened horse into deep water having been told previously not to. The horse, not liking water or having it's head dunked panicked. During that panic it broke a leg and, unable to get it's footing whilst trying to escape the rider, drowned. I can't see anywhere where it suggests the horse was being deliberately held under. If the horse couldn't get its footing, it's likely the man couldn't either and didn't dare let go the horse.

As for "the people who are attending have no respect for horses" - I've never known ANY people (other than upper class little white girls and their ponies) who have more respect for their horses than the Travelling people and their families.

Would there be demands to close down the Horse fair if it were the human who had drowned?

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:01 AM

I'd like some more evidence for the idea that the horses' heads are regularly held under water.

"Its callous owner wanted to observe the tradition of ducking each animal's head in the river." (my emphasis)

Daily Mirror, 14-06-2007

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:06 AM

By the way, I hate horses and I count myself as one of those 'non-travelling people' who don't understand. The difference is, I try not to impose my way of life onto theirs.

I had a Romany friend when I was 5-6. Her family was Benham, from the Piddletrenthide camp in Dorset. I was one of the only children in the school who would speak to her or her sisters and I like to think we were friends. I certainly never teased her or told her she smelled like so many of my classmates did. At Secondary school, I was the only one who'd sit next to Peggy-Sue on the bus - her family moved onto the Piddletrenthide camp with the Benhams for a while, another Romany. Manitas regularly played at sessions with the Queen of the Gypsy Council, shortly before her death a few years ago. Josie's family still keep horses nearby so I am not totally ignorant of the Travelling way of life.

With all the respect the Travellers have for their horses, I'm not surprised people tried to help the horse out. I am surprised that a Traveller took it in. I'm not surprised that it was a male - the machismo of "taming" an obviously "wild" horse would have appealed to more than one person there. I'm pretty sure that with such clear pictures in the media, the Travellers know who it was. If it was another Traveller, the owner of the horse will have his payment by next fair. If it wasn't, then there is a whole network across the country who will point him out to the authorities.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:07 AM

It's ritual cleansing - you don't wash your body and leave your face dirty.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:09 AM

Ducking - I believe they do something similar to humans at some Baptism ceremonies.

As I said before .... get real

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:28 AM

"Its callous owner wanted to observe the tradition of ducking each animal's head in the river."

Daily Mirror, 14-06-2007

Ducking a horse's head under water is not holding a horse's head under water. There's a pretty big difference. Blowzabella, who has attended the fair on numerous occasions, says he has never seen a horse having its head held under water.

When I've washed pet dogs in the past, I've ducked their heads under water in order to wash them. Quick, call the RSPCA.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:31 AM

I first went to Appleby Horse Fair at the age of 6 months apparently. I went every year thereafter for some 30 years (my grandmother was an Appleby lass).

It may be true, LTS, that you've "never known ANY people (other than upper class little white girls and their ponies) who have more respect for their horses than the Travelling people and their families.", but please believe me when I tell you that not at Appleby Fair they don't.

I've witnessed horses being kicked, punched, head-butted, whipped, beaten with sticks, run into the ground.

Indeed, the reason I no longer attend is because of the mindless cruelty inflicted on those poor beasts YEAR AFTER YEAR.

I can also tell you that you won't get many eye-witness accounts from the local residents (many of whom are my relatives) because they stay in their homes with all the windows and doors locked during the fair week.

That's the 'reality' of Appleby Horse Fair.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:33 AM

Grimmy, if this is the case, why does the RSPCA, who maintain a presence throught the fair, not intervene? One would have thought the fair would have been closed down by now if such claims could be substantiated by independent witnesses from an animal protection society.

I'm not being disingenuous: it's a serious question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:49 AM

The RSPCA and the local police are sh*t scared to intervene in case they provoke an 'incident'.

Besides, the travellers are very adept (having been doing it since 1685) at conducting their activities out of sight of the authorities. There is an 'official' fair for the benefit of the visitors and an 'unofficial' one for the serious dealing - and that's the one very few people get to see.

Westmorland Borough Council nade an unsuccessful attempt to close the fair in 1965.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:06 AM

Grimmy .... this is a HORSE FAIR not a spectator sport - the behaviour of the people there is no different to what you would find in any Cattle Market in the country.

It's only in this country that we become sentimental about our horses - remember - on the Continent they eat them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:31 AM

nutty

You might want to tell that to the 20/30,000 spectators who visit Appleby Fair every year.

I oppose cruelty to any living creature wherever and whenever I find it. If that makes me 'sentimental' then so be it. How would you describe yourself?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:35 AM

I have to say, i think Grimmy has the right of the matter - it can often be harsh, rough and is less regulated than auction marts etc (I don't think I've ever seen anyone nutting a horse - or a cow for that matter- but I have seen heads severely yanked, sticks, thumps etc). Rough handling is probably one of those very greay areas that the RSPCA would be necessarily cautious about getting involved with - they have slightly more power nowadays with the new Act - but ....

I'm NOT saying that the event is full of animal cruelty - not by any stretch of the imagination - but there are elements there, for whom bravado and the occasion of the Fair - the spectacle, whatever, causes them to act in very macho ways - treating the horses, as I said, more like a roadster than flesh and blood. Perhaps they hope it will impress the girls? I don't know.

I will agree that part of me loves the tradition and spectacle of the Fair - I see the vardos going up and returning from the fair every year - even spent part of my wedding night with a group of travellers, round their fire (long story) - but, let's not forget that they are real people - often rough - many of them are not strangers to a good punch up - they aren't (or most of them aren't) recreating a tradition - they aren't social workers / teachers who dress up once a year (although there is some sense of occasion - and I know it's a kind of holiday for many). I've been drinking in the pubs with many of the traders / associates - would not want to be on the wrong side of them.

I'm rambling incoherently here but ...

(I'm a a girl Ruth!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:36 AM

Point of order: the 1685 charter was for a fair in April. The mid-June horse fair wasn't constituted till the mid-18c (according to Roud again).

Having never visited the fair, it's very hard to sit in judgement on it. There are conflicting opinions here from people who have attended, and I don't believe it's possible to understand an event like this from looking on a few websites, so I'm not going to offer any further, ill-informed opinions of my own.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:44 AM

As I said .... to my mind this is not a spectator sport.
I can see no reason for 20/30,000 people being there.

It's the onlookers that have created such problems not the Travellers.

I also oppose cruelty but am realistic enough to realise that it happens - occasionally accidentally (as in this case).

I'm sure that having spent money on buying the horse the last thing the owner intended to do was to drown it. Whereas in the case of racehorses etc. the owners accept death as a possibility when they place their animals in such situations.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:56 AM

I believe it should continue.

Yes, Blowzabella, it is a rough and ready event - they are rough and ready people - and it would lose its character somewhat if it were to be 'sanitised'.

I also did not intend to create the impression that there is unremitting animal cruelty (too much for my taste, but perhaps I am over-sensitive).

I just wish the authorities would show a little more backbone and intervene when the odd individual oversteps the mark.

Then, perhaps, I would consider returning (the Eden Valley is one of England's best kept secrets).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:00 AM

This site gives a more balanced look at what the fair is about

Appleby Horse Fair 2007

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:06 AM

Well, so "they" should have "their" Fair taken away from "them" if one of "them" does something stupid(as young men with beer in them often do).
Well, I should like to point out that the Gypsy May Bradley was a fantastic repository for old traditional folksongs preserved in her family(and many other Gypsies did the same job). So, my proposal is that all of "them" should be given an EFDSS gold medal each in acknowledgement of "their" services to English folk music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:49 AM

Well nutty, I've looked at every one of the pretty postcard scenes and I didn't see one dead horse - so I am at a loss to understand how that is "a more balanced look at what the fair is about".

'Balanced' suggests good and bad, the rough with the smooth, both sides of the story, even-handed, doesn't it?

Where are the dog fighting images? The sheep stealing pics? The drunken fighting photos? The cottages with ivy around the door and human excrement on the lawn?

For a proper balanced view, speak to the locals as well as the visitors. Except that they'll still be clearing up the mess for the next two weeks.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

I think the link that nutty provided was to the 'Your Slideshow' section of the BBC Cumbria website - which asks viewers / listeners to send in their pics. It is not meant to present a pictorial review of events - they just put up a selection of what they are sent.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

Quite so Bowzabella.

But what it is manifestly not, as nutty claimed, is a 'balanced' look at Appleby Horse Fair.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM

SO . NONE OF THE MESS IS LEFT BY THE 20/30,000 OUTSIDERS.

As I said before .... if you are looking for blame don't just look at the travellers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:30 AM

Nutty - you said: "I'm sure that having spent money on buying the horse the last thing the owner intended to do was to drown it."

You are probably correct - but if you read the reports, you will see that the horse did not belong to the man who was riding it in the river. He had been told (possibly BY the owner) not to take it in the river, as it wasn't used to it. However, he saw fit to take the horse anyway (twocking a horse???) and swim it. This, I suspect, is why he did a runner when it all went wrong and the horse was drowned. Perhaps he suspected he'd get a 'jolly good telling off' by the owner of the (now) dead horse? Perhaps he has had one. Perhaps he is still legging it???

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:32 AM

If he was stupid enough to drown a traveller's horse then he will not be legging very far I suspect.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:52 AM

"As I said before .... if you are looking for blame don't just look at the travellers."

If you read my posts, you will note that at no point did I blame the travellers, merely that these events occured during, and only during, the fair week.

I am quite sure that outsiders are more than capable of sheep stealing, I will leave it to others to decide who are the most likely culprits.

If you ask any of the local residents, you are likely to get a much less measured response.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:12 AM

A one-off, Blowzabella. Get over it. The police and RSPCA would be better employed tackling dog-fighting than wasting their time at an event as innocuous as the Appleby fair. And why was Greg's point about the meat industry dismissed so lightly? Do all those who would scrap a centuries-old tradition on account of one wretched horse refrain from eating the produce of our meat factories? (FWIW, I do.)

Of course, neither the meat industry nor dog-fighting - nor for that matter the equestrian sports that have been mentioned - are associated primarily with travellers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:20 AM

Grimmy -- I'm sure the locals in Appleby have much in common with those in Glastonbury. Such events do cause disruption but only for a very short time each year.

I live at the seaside and near a racecourse and can assure you that my locality is taken over by drunken holiday makers and racegoers for far longer than that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,FlatBackCaper
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:22 AM

"merely that these events occured during, and only during, the fair week."

Lest this be forgotten. "A North East man has been flown to hospital after he was struck by a horse at the same fair. The elderly man, who was visiting the week-long Appleby Horse Fair in Cumbria on Monday, suffered serious head injuries, police said."

and....."Residents in a Cumbrian town are calling for more to be done to tackle tonnes of rubbish left lying in fields after the Appleby Horse fair. About 60,000 visitors attended the annual show

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:30 AM

"Yes, it's where madlizzie comes from, Pinner to be precise. A North West London suburb, not the West Country."

I don't think where anyone lives has any bearing on this matter at all...and as for this bogus "us vs "them" debate, I think Ms Cornish was referring, rightly or wrongly, to Appleby as a whole and not one single group of people, as certain elements on these boards would have us believe. I always though these boards were for constructive debate...I am, perhaps a little bit naive in my beliefs

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:32 AM

Peter K

I don't understand your comment about 'Get over it'. I was never 'under it' - I opened a subject for conversation, which has proved to be of interest.

I've not pointed fingers or posted in a hysterical way - all I've done is point to information and also share some of my own experiences.

As for Greg's comment about the meat industry - i did respond, if you look back. I agree there's not much the RSPCA could have done - but don't agree that they are wasting their time there. Or that the event is innocuous. Have you been? As I said - I've been several times - have ridden horses there and swum one in the river - so I'm not speaking as a total outsider. I'm by no means against the event - but nor do I view it with rose tinted spectacles. If you read my posts you would have seen that i actually spent my wedding night (well, part of it) at a traveller's camp - on their way back from Appleby, as it happens.

Please don't speak to me as if I've called for it to be banned - or for anything similar - because I haven't. Read before you write, please.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:33 AM

Just a random selection:

• link 1



• link 2



• link 3



• href="http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.604695.0.stampede_at_appleby_horse_fair.php">link 4



• href="http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.604443
  .0.appleby_horse_fair_peaceful_despite_gun_attack.php">link 5



• href="http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.500103.0.incidents_mar_horse_fair_success.php">link 6



• href="http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.497266.0.fire_crews_attacked_at_appleby_fair.php">link 7

I could go on......

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM

Sorry, I screwed up some of the links. However, the web addresses themselves tell a story.

Appleby is no Glastonbury.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:40 AM

GUEST shocked and appalled in Reading: you say
"I don't think where anyone lives has any bearing on this matter at all...and as for this bogus "us vs "them" debate, I think Ms Cornish was referring, rightly or wrongly, to Appleby as a whole and not one single group of people, as certain elements on these boards would have us believe".
   I would like to point out that you are 100% wrong, as well as shocked and appalled. If I may quote Ms Cornish verbatim, she spells it out very clearly herself:
"if they cannot police it themselves...the Travelling Families that is, then they have no right to continue it".
The three little ... in that quote, by the way, are hers in the original, not me leaving saomething out.
Why not identify yourself, GUEST? It is often difficult for us Mudcatters to discuss a topic of mutual interest when you anonymous trolls turn up and muddy the waters, in the RIver Eden and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

I don't think where anyone lives has any bearing on this matter at all...

Well the point was that she was claiming to be something she was not.

" Doesn't she know that Wrecker's Blood runs through our veins...and it matters not if it's a BMW bike, a box of oranges or 75 years of 'newborn' nappies...A WRECK IS A WRECK and it's cargo belongs to the people of The West Country!!!!!!!!!!"

Well it seems she is not from the West Country but from Pinner.

Otherwise you are correct it does not matter where she comes from.

Ms Cornish was referring to something in terms directly contradictory to those she had used earlier this year.

I pointed out the contradiction. I would have thought that was debate.

I agree it is not constructive - neither was Lizzie's spurious argument about closing the fair down because of one individual's idiocy, ignoring far greater mistreatment of animals due to things like National Hunt Racing and 3-day eventing, something she has failed so far to address.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

I would hardly call it a discussion...and as I said, whare someone is from has no bearing on the matter.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:52 AM

Well I'm off to Glastonbury Festival on Wednesday, as is my wont. A fantastic English cultural tradtion, like Appleby, though obviously not so old. I've never seen any horses drowned at Glastonbury, but people have been murdered, and assaulted in other ways. And there just occasionally happens to be a bit of rubbish too. If you cram a lot of people into a small place, things happen. Many wonderful things, and a small number of bad things.
Coincidentally, I have just been reading an account of attempts to ban Burslem Wakes in the Potteries in the 19th century, due to riotous behaviour. The arguments on both sides are reproduced pretty nearly verbatim in this thread more than a century on.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

Grimmy - I wasn't trying to suggesting that Appleby was the same as Glastonbury, merely that from the point of view of the locals such disruption to their normal lives is equally intolerable.

As regards the links ... they show the very worst side of humanity which can also be found , unfortunately, ever weekend in city centres such as Newcastle and Birmingham.

Drunkenness and violence is all part of the booze culture as I am sure any Policeman will tell you.

Apparently what incidents there were during the Horse Fair did not overly concern the local constabulary. (SEE LINK 3)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM

"Shocked and Appalled" thinks where someone lives (actually where they come from) has no bearing.

The poster in question is not a resident of the Eden Valley nor a native of the West Country. These would seem a rather good grounds to remain circumspect about spouting uninformed nonsense concerning customs and culture indigenous to those regions, and to leave observations to those qualified by residence, ethnicity or by academic qualification. This, of course, is precisely what she never does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:00 PM

Greg - that is my point entirely - so many things have been lost and I would hate to lose Appleby - but there is a real danger that it could go, if some loose cannons go rattling round and hitting the headlines. I agree - don't want it to be sanitised - I've probably been closer to the dealers and travellers who go than most, who are participating on this thread. I want it to be real - earthy - I don't care if there's a bit of bare-knuckle fighting goes on back at the campsite - that is up to them. Dog fighting / cockfighting and ruining horses by running them up and down all day until they are of no use to anyone and are just abandonedoutside a pub is another thing. (I thought the riding the horse into the pub quite funny - but could have been nasty if it had panicked).

(I had an aunty who was cruelly scarred when a horse in a field was spooked - it jumped out of its field and landed on the soft top of her car! It proceeded to thrash about and did both itself and her considerable damage - so I'm also pretty familiar with what sharp hooves can do to human flesh in a confined space)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:09 PM

First of all horse fairs are indigenous to one area, in this case Appleby, even London still has one, and look, by gosh...The West Country of England has one too..
For further details please consult
Horse Fairs

ShockedandAppalledbutnotParochialinReading *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM

ooops...that should be "are NOT indigenous"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:24 PM

Shocked & Appalled

The West Country reference was to wreckers, not a horse fair. It would be useful if casual visitors would actually read the thread before leaping in.

The thread title is about an incident at one specific horse fair, not such events in general. Though were madlizzie to kick off against Travellers en masse (and not just at Appleby where, I'm prepared to hazard a guess, she's never been), may she come under equally stringent criticism for socially divisive and inaccurate shit-stirring.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM

Oh I read everything...and I am familiar with the events that took place at Appleby. I say events because as has already been noted a man was injured, quite badly, at this same fair...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

Property in the washed up items passes to insurers upon payment out. Insurers then either abandon them them there, or collect them and put them in landfill. Better to do something useful with them, surely.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

The local council are trying to stop the Brigg Horse Fair from taking place by blocking off possible venues.

Brigg Life

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:21 PM

>>>Though were madlizzie to kick off against Travellers en masse (and not just at Appleby where, I'm prepared to hazard a guess, she's never been), may she come under equally stringent criticism for socially divisive and inaccurate shit-stirring. <<<

I'm from Spanish gypsy stock, so hardly Diane....you'll have to think of something else to try and stick on me, other than the racist slur you and your mates have been angling towards the last few days....

And the only 'shit' I'm interested in is that I don't truly give a 'shit' about you or your mates or you're twisted words any longer.

And as people seem to be talking about The Napoli, for some slightly insane reason, I thought you may like to see her..

The Wreck of The Napoli

It's painted by a local artist. My daughter.

Oh and Ruth..in the 52 years I've had animals, I have never held my dogs heads under water when washing/bathing them. I have always washed their faces and heads gently with a flannel. I'd recommend you try it from now on, instead of possibly causing panic and distress to your dogs.

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:24 PM

Of course it does Richard - once the owners agree to do it. Anything else would result in chaos as I am sure you can understand.

Now can you see the owners (insurers) being allowed to say - come one and all and help yourself, recycle the stuff that is on the beach? Do you think the local authority on behalf of the residents might not have something to say?

Shocked and Appalled

I am delighted you read everything. However that is not sufficient - you need to be able to understand it too. When you wrote your first post - you clearly didn't understand the references which I had made to Lizzie and her abode.

After two days of constant rain and an afternoon of dryness - just as   I am about to depart for a long weekend a thunderstorm breaks out.

Damn........

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:42 PM

The shipwreck of The Napoli just off Sidmouth on the Jurssic (sic) World Heritage Coast of East Devon

Looks wildly out of perspective. Wonder where 'Nonny Isabella' gets that from? And the beach looks remarkably clear. I see the 'recyclers' had already cleaned up.

Spanish 'gypsy' stock? My, how patronisingly, inappropriately yet pseudo-fashionably middle-class boho. Has the former resident of cosy Pinner any idea what it's like to live a persecuted life under a flyover, hemmed in by railway lines and scrapyards?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM

I would say that at this point the thread has drifted so far as to be shipwrecked.

If you can't stay on subject, then start another thread

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:53 PM

Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?

neither, Ms Easby nor Ms Cornish's latest missives have anything to do with the theme..wanna slag one another, do it somewhere else, please

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:04 PM

Patronising? ..Not at all....merely truthful.

However your words are some of the most patronising I've ever read.

Have I ever slept under a flyover?

Nope...but I grew up under the constant threat of having our rented house taken away from us. As I got older I watched my father worry more and more as the remaining rented houses on the estate, were bought up by a greedy Estate Agent, who tried to increase the rents vastly, in order to get everyone out and sell the properties on.

I saw my father's tears as he ran out of money to pay the bills sometimes. His children helped him out. I watched him worry the latter part of his life away, because he lived with the thought that his home would be taken away from him, a home that he loved dearly and where he lived for nearly 30 years. Eventually he moved down to Devon with us and we cared for him for the remainder of his days.

You obviously only know rich and wealthy people in Pinner Diane, as that is the world you probably choose to inhabit, there was a very different part of Pinner too that you and your 'pseudo-fashionably middle-class boho' pals obviously haven't a clue about.

So take your patronising words and shove 'em where the sun don't shine.

Oh and what beach? There is no beach in that picture. It's all sea. Obviously your sight is dimming, along with your mind these days....for Branscombe beach is barely even visible from Sidmouth, where the painting is based.

Have I ever led a persecuted life? Only since unfortunately coming into contact with you and your mates, who take great pleasure in belittling, twisting, spinning, ostracising and quite frankly behaving like some of the very worst kind of abusive racists.

Have a nice evening

And now...back to Appleby Horse Fair...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:05 PM

neither, Ms Easby nor Ms Cornish's latest missives have anything to do with the theme..wanna slag one another, do it somewhere else, please


Quite....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:09 PM

Dave, Greg, Ruth and I have (for the sake of those unable to keep up) been demonstrating that madlizzie hasn't a clue what she's talking about.
This is not exactly hard, but the graphic example of her tenuous grasp of the West Country wrecking 'tradition' (which she claimed as being in her blood before zooming off course into Spain) clinches it.
Now she's branching off into poodle washing.
The OP wanted to discuss one specific incident at Appleby.
It's a custom of legitimate community concern.
Uninformed whingeing at the RSPCA and plugging of strange daubings are not.
What Shocked & Appalled doesn't yet realise is that this is what madlizzie (when not in Cyber-Canada) does ALL THE TIME,
S/he soon will.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:15 PM

And now....back to Appleby Horse Fair

The Appleby Fair Company

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

Dear ShockedandAppalled...that Horse Fairs link above is very interesting...Thanks for that one... :0) x

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:33 PM

I think , Ms Easby, you need to calm down yourself..ranting is a word that come immediately to mind when reading your missives, which I have spent sometime doing. You rant, but you offer no solutions. I do believe you love the sound of your own voice.
And Now Back To The Thread At Hand.
Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?

One must not say that such and such an institution or event should be shut down simply because of the actions of, in this case, one person. Too many times, and we see it time and again, the actions of the few spoil things for the many. This, The Appleby Horse Fair, will continue, though I suspect under pressure from those who would see this tradition ended, much the same, as I noted earlier, as those on the local council would see The Brigg Fair end. Where does it stop?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:39 PM

Methinks our anonymous pest of a Guest allegedly from Berkshire, doth protest too much. It ill becomes someone who has posted so much and so anonymously to decry the posts of someone who at least uses her own name.
G

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 03:21 PM

What did I say earlier about there not being such a fuss if it were a human injured?

So now a human has been injured.. but it's still not making headlines is it.

Told you so.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 03:21 PM

for the past seven (counting this one) posts I've actually been logged in as a member
*LOL* as for the nickname, I apparently am not the only one who uses one..sooooo, on yer bike; and I stand by what I've said...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 03:27 PM

Liz...I only picked up on the fact that a human was injured at Appleby by reading almost the entire article, which was, of course, mainly about the horse...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:31 PM

I think we are now dealing with that Mudcat tradition of a thread where one troll is posting under two separate names. Confusing, or what?I'm off

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

I posted using this name as a guest and then signed upas a member of Mudcat....that should be easy to figure out...shouldn't it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM

and I shall stay a member of Mudcat...there are one or two interesting threads going on here...if the thread topic can be maintained...What the R.S.P.C.A does regarding Appleby will bear watching

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:53 PM

ShockedandAppalledinReading

No offense to you or any of the members intended, but I don't think this is the forum which will maintain an interest in the topic for as long as it would take for the RSPCA to follow up their enquiries. It is a busy place, which is primarily concerned with music - calendar traditions are a sort of secondary topic and incidents at them, whilst a valid topic (as you have seen) are probably of tertiary concern.

Stck around for the music etc - but not if you're looking t see this followed thorugh to a prosecution. I doubt it will happen.

The reason I posted here was because I knew that many of the UK members of the site would know of the event and have an opinion on it. That's all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM

Anonymous pest of a Guest

If it involves ranting to see off a waste-of-space pseudo-West Country troll, I'll do it.
Again and again. Until she stops insulting and damaging my friends and dispensing her customary damaging drivel.
And the same applies to a sloganising, patronising, pompous git from Berkshire.
If different.

One must not say that such and such an institution or event should be shut down

I didn't. Nor did the OP.
madlizzie did, I think.
'Take the fair off them', or some such draconian, uninformed sanction.
I actually come from close to Appleby (not Pinner or Reading), and know this tradition.
And as long as no cruelty is involved it needs be left alone as a mark of respect to the travelling community.
Monitored, yes, by those specifically qualified to do so but is is highly, and offensively, insensitive to label the participants as 'pikeys' and try to tell them what to do.
Just as it is to steal from containers washed ashore while the rightful owners watch aghast on television.
Even if Richard Bridge thinks it's blue-sky thinking on recycling policy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

Er...

>>>>And as long as no cruelty is involved it needs be left alone as a mark of respect to the travelling community.<<<

....but that's what I've been saying. If they stop dunking horses heads under the water and hand the bloke who behaved in such an appalling manner over, then fair enough. If they go out of their way to reassure the public that it will never happen again, then fair enough...but if they don't...well.....they should close it down.

Just to clarify, I never called anyone 'pikey' by the way. And how come YOU are allowed to refer to 'the travelling community' but if I dare to say 'the travellers' then I'm somehow being racist?

Hmmmmm...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:22 PM

Deuce,new balls please.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM

Deuce?
You cannot be serious, Umpire Dick.
I've just seen off the Reading & Sidmouth trolls with a racket in either hand.
Balls to them.
And not new ones.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:02 PM

*LOL* it would appear people are only troll if they fail to agree with Miss Easby and the other horsemen of the apocalypse, inwhich case I am most proud to be a troll *LOL* dear, dear.....anyway

as for the that grand old adage that Ms Cornish and I are the same person, that accusation was old and decrepit when Noah was a kid.

"One must not say that such and such an institution or event should be shut down simply because of the actions of, in this case, one person"

actually that was simply an observation, not aimed at anyone in particular.

As for me going anywhere...as I said, there are one or two interesting threads here, musically, so.......

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 06:20 PM

You are all managing to make a nonsense of what was once a serious thread.

Go and play somewhere else - please

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 05:10 PM

"as for the that grand old adage that Ms Cornish and I are the same person, that accusation was old and decrepit when Noah was a kid."

If "Reading" is not the same person as Lizzie, how come these two posts follow on from each other?

"From: Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:15 PM

And now....back to Appleby Horse Fair

The Appleby Fair Company(html link)"

"From: Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

Dear ShockedandAppalled...that Horse Fairs link above is very interesting...Thanks for that one... :0) x"

Looks like Lizzie forgot to log in as her alternative personality before making the first post. Not the first time she's made up false identities, both here and on other boards, in order to back herself up. Persistently making up new identities is one of the things that got her banned from the BBC messageboard for life.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:51 AM

Dave, Greg, Ruth and I have (for the sake of those unable to keep up) been demonstrating that madlizzie hasn't a clue what she's talking about.

That is quite right.

Lizzie interpret this as an attack on her.

She is wrong - it is what she posts that is the problem.

Hence the fact that I chose to highlight the contradiction between what she posted about tradition when it was her "own" west country tradition of "wrecking" and what she posted about the Appleby Horse Fair.

A point she has deigned not answer yet.

Come on Lizzie - even in Canada it can still be possible to answer this.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:57 AM

I thought she was more West London, than West Country Dave?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:14 AM

"Lizzie interpret this as an attack on her.

She is wrong - it is what she posts that is the problem."

See, this is where the rub is for me. When Lizzie gets going, you have two choices: ignore her or challenge some of the often wildly erroneous assertions she makes.

I realise that the wise and circumspect choice is the former. But when she gets up on her high horse (pun completely intended) about a subject she knows nothing about, should everyone let her have her head just because to do otherwise might be interpreted (by her) as a personal attack? Maybe so. But when having her head includes making ill-informed phone calls to the RSPCA demanding an event be stopped, it's beyond mere loony ranting. It's potentially jeopardizing a centuries-old tradition.

Now, I've never been to Appleby Horse Fair. I'm interested to read the differing views of those who have been, and also keen to keep things in perspective (ie, one horse death in 10 years at the Fair as opposed to 30 in the same period at the Grand National). But before I started campaigning either to have it shut down or to keep it going, I'd want to make damn sure I had my facts straight. I might even - here's a crazy idea - want to go and see the event firsthand to ensure I knew what the hell I was on about and could make informed comment, and didn't instead end up making a complete arse of myself.

But maybe that's just me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:33 AM

Ruth, I don't know the exact figure, but the number of horse deaths is much higher than you quote (though some do occur while travelling to/from the fair):

2006
Meanwhile, the RSPCA is investigating the death of a horse, which collapsed and died outside the Grapes public house in The Sands, Appleby, in the early hours of June 12 morning. It is believed the horse was abandoned after being run up and down Battlebarrow, a number of times, before collapsing after becoming exhausted.

On Tuesday (June 6) a horse, which was being ridden by a traveller, was killed after it ran out in front of a Land Rover Discovery driven by a 19-year-old woman from Ingleton at Devil's Bridge, near Kirkby Lonsdale.

2005
Police also believe that a horse killed by a van on the A65 at Newby, near Ingleton, belonged to a traveller.

The horse had been tied to a fence when it was struck by the van, which was written off following the accident, at 4am on Tuesday.

The RSCPA usually records up to five injured horses a day. However, two horses died at the event, one dying from blood poisoning caused by stress. The owners of both horses failed to come forward.

Source: The Westmorland Gazette

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:58 AM

Grimmy, I was quoting the police officer that was interviewed for the video news story linked near the top of this thread. He was the one who said it was one horse in the past 10 years.

If there have been more, I apologise and stand corrected; but I still suspect that the racing and eventing industries are responsible for a lot more horse deaths. Not to mention hunting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:08 AM

35 horses have died whilst horse racing so far this year. That is in England alone and since the National Hunt meeting at Cheltenham.

The link is here.

It does not count horses injured and killed in training.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:18 AM

I'm not sure you can count horse deaths on the A65 at Newby or in vehicular accidents as being caused by cruelty at Appleby Horse Fair, especially as the A65 doesn't appear to go anywhere near Appleby. The A66 does. But it doesn't go through or particularly near Newby..

Admittedly, the horses would not have been there if there was no fair, but the fault must surely lie with inattentive drivers, especially at 4.00am. Horses are a common hazard on all our country roads and need special attention.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:32 AM

Ruth, Folkiedave,

Yes, I acknowledge that there have been far more deaths in the horse racing/eventing/hunting fraternities and I condemn them.

I just wanted to emphasise that the horse's death this year at Applebly was not an isolated event.

It happened in a very public place, witnessed by young kids and parents armed with digital cameras and, as such, received far more publicity than previous deaths and/or acts of cruelty.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:38 AM

Funny how when a horse breaks a leg over Beechers Brook in the Grand National and has to be put down with thousands there watching it at Aintree, millions more watching it on national TV and in betting shops up and down the country, it doesn't get the same publicity as this incident did.

Could it be because racing is a Royalty-endorsed "sport" and the other involves a minority group?

The words 'storm', 'teacup', 'priorities' and 'equality' are floating through my head.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:39 AM

The horse racing deaths happen in front of thousands too, millions in the case of those on TV at Aintree/Cheltenham which are shown on TV.

There is no record of horses killed in training as far as I can see. Animal Wtch reckon the total of horses killed on courses are approx one third of those who die needlessly in total.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:56 AM

Horses are a common hazard on all our country roads and need special attention.

I quite agree, Liz. The horse in question had been tied to a fence and allowed to graze on the grass verge. Its tether wasn't short enough to prevent it from encroaching onto the road, whereupon it was struck by the van.

One wonders what the owner was doing at the time - sleeping perhaps?

As you say, the A65 is some way from Appleby. Unfortunately this meant that drivers were less likely to be expecting to encounter horses in the middle of the road - especially at 4am.

I have witnessed animal deaths which happen in the name of so-called 'sport'. I condemn every one of them.

However, I have never seen a horse drown due the pathetic macho posturing of some irresponsible dickhead.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:45 AM

"However, I have never seen a horse drown due the pathetic macho posturing of some irresponsible dickhead."

...possibly because it was an isolated incident?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:25 AM

The cause of death - yes, mercifully.

The incidence of death - no, regretably.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

LTS said:
Could it be because racing is a Royalty-endorsed "sport" and the other involves a minority group?

The words 'storm', 'teacup', 'priorities' and 'equality' are floating through my head.

I'm sorry Liz but I think that is somewhat insulting.
You have to have been to Appleby Fair to appreciate the difference. Yes, it involves a minority group but it is probably because of the fact that it involves this group that it is such a treasured event - peopel appreciate that is something pretty special and want to share. If it was just several thousand random families who turned up, set up camp in a large field, completely took over a town, drank lots, and charged up and down the streets (making crossing the road a risky business), it would have been stopped long ago.

Appleby when the Fair is on is more like Tombstone, when The Cowboys rode into town. Lots of youths with a fair bit of dosh, going after the girls, whopping and shouting on horses up and down the streets. Its unique - it's amazing - it can be a bit dangerous.

But some of the young lads, in particular, are very hard on their animals. It is a macho thing. Ruining an animals health, through poor handling and trying to show how hard you are is a different thing to an accident on the racecourse - I am not pro-racing either, partly for this reason - but they are different scenarios.

I don't think any of the people who have commented on here have made comments which warranted your comments about Royalty vs minority and veiled suggestions of racism. It is making the same kind of assumptions that you are suggesting others are making.

For info, I spent part of Sunday evening, drinking with a group of travellers who had their vardos parked on the verge outside my local. They suggested the incident was being bealt with.

(My OH and I spent our wedding night with a group - all horse drawn vehicles, on grass near the same local. We jumped through their campfire and had our photograph taken cutting a sausage sarni and drinking bottles of Old Peculiar. We live on the route which many of the vans take, who are heading in a southerly direction. They generally come and camp in the same places every year and, for several weeks around here, the roads are full of vardoes and coloured ponies. I know several of the families personally and have done for years. So please don't suggest that my concerns are because they are a minority group, rather than, say, point to pointers. Believe me, I'd be far more critical of the point to pointers, if I saw them treating horses in the way I've seen horses (and dogs) treated at Appleby . But I also think that some of the youngsters, in particular, need to learn how to treat animals and not to use the culture difference as an excuse for overly rough handling, which results in damaged animals.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM

Sorry - garbled writing there cos I'm at work and shouldn't be here. First sentence of last para should say with a group of friends - all with horse drawn vehicles ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:43 AM

I suspect that the incident at Appleby was not isolated, as someone has pointed out, the number of witnesses with modern devices such has digital cameras, mobile phones with cameras etc...makes this particular incident high profile, and while it should be investigated by the RSPCA, among others, nothing will come of it (at the risk of sounding cynical)The fair will not be cancelled, indeed it should not be because I'm sure it brings in, amongst other things, much need capital to the area. I have not attended this event myself and have had to, like many others, rely on media coverage, how balanced this coverage was in open to debate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

"I suspect that the incident at Appleby was not isolated, as someone has pointed out, the number of witnesses with modern devices such has digital cameras, mobile phones with cameras etc...makes this particular incident high profile"

...and the 20 - 30,000 visitors (as estimated elsewhere on this thread) who visit the fair each year would no doubt have similarly recorded any other instances of an animal being drowned in the past. If you have evidence to contradict the notion that this particular incident was a one-off, do please produce it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:21 PM

Here you go, Ruth:

Another Appleby horse drowning.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

"as someone has pointed out, the number of witnesses with modern devices such has digital cameras, mobile phones with cameras etc...makes this particular incident high profile"

the number of people with cameras etc made this particular incident high profile. It's unfortunate that there is no evidence either way, as to whether this was an isolated incident or whether it wasn't, and it's unlikely there ever will be conclusive evidence. As to who committed the offence,it doesn't matter cruelty is cruelty regardless, name calling and finger pointing is pointless.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 01:02 PM

"Here you go, Ruth:

Another Appleby horse drowning."


Damn and I read, or at least I thought I'd read, that letter

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM

Blowzabella, when I said "get over it" I was responding to this comment from you: "Personally, i am gutted, as you can probably tell by the number of posts I am making on this thread." And I didn't say you had ignored Greg's point about the meat industry, I said it had been dismissed lightly. I was not aiming that at you specifically, but your own response ("Oh for heavens sake ... drowning an animal is a different matter entirely") fits the description quite well.

You may not want the event banned, but that is the question you raised in the thread title, so I was entitled to express a view about that.

To answer your other question, yes, I've been to the fair, but not for many years. I used to be in the area regularly at one time. I have friends in Appleby, and relatives farmed on Shap Fell until recently.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 02:14 PM

Hearsay is not evidence. Is there any independent report which confirms that story of another drowned horse? Media? Corraborative reports from other witnesses?

I've been told someone was killed at Hallaton Bottle Kicking some years ago. But as I have not seen any evidence for this, I don't assume it's fact.

I'm not trying to be obstinate, honest. I just think that judgements should be based on evidence rather than gossip.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM

CLICK HERE

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:20 PM

Oh nutty ... please don't take me on at the 'I can find more cruelty sites than you can' game because I warn you, I will win hands down!

This for example Greyhound Action Website

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:23 PM

Edit to add: What exactly is your point? Cruelty happens elsewhere therefore it is ok??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:41 PM

I think it's more about keeping things in perspective; about the level of cruelty which allegedly takes place at Appleby versus that which happens in many "legitimised" industries to do with animals, food and farming; and interrogating whether an event like Appleby deserves the kind of scrutiny this thread has produced compared to the institutionalised cruelty of something like the racing industry. And asking whether people with an interest in animal welfare wouldn't be better off directing their energies towards industries which seem to produce large-scale cruelty as a by-product, rather than an annual event which has received disproportionate attention because of one sensationalised and unfortunate incident.

That's all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:24 PM

I know what you are saying, Ruth and, you are right to a huuuge degree. I'm not going to carry on ad nauseum about this - as you say, it is an annual event and will be over soon, until next year.   And I DO NOT want to see it disappear as an event. But, I would like to comment, that, although this was the highest profile example of animal mishandling / cruelty that happened - please don't think it was the only one. Yes - there are institutionalised cases of cruelty - Greyhound Racing being one. Appleby is not an icing sugared tradition. It is a living one - with probably more burrs on its edge than most. In its own way, it, too is an institution.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:35 PM

Blowz - think what you like... the words 'stick', 'end', 'wrong' and 'of' are now passing through my head.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:50 PM

I'm sorry - i have just spent 48 hours caring for an injured kestrel, who has had to be pts, due to a broken wing, at the end of the day. Nothing to do with cruelty - just sad, cos he had a mate and young to feed.

I am too tired to discuss this any more for the time being. If you wish to continue discussion, please do so without me, cos I need some sleep. I've got work in the morning as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:39 AM

Ruth, I keep producing the evidence you demand - and you keep ignoring it. THREE documented horse deaths in the last two years and you still go on about an 'isolated incident'.

If there's one good thing to come out of all this, it's that the drowning story has gone around the world - and hopefully will shame the authorities into acting to prevent such an horrific act from re-occuring. They have stood on the sidelines for far too long.

If anyone really really wants cast-iron proof of horse cruelty (including deaths) at Appleby over a long period of time, then I will obtain it. It will take a while - I have people and organisations to contact (the only reason why more incidents haven't been revealed now is that the Westmorland Gazette has not digitised its past issues).

But, for those in denial, I promise you, I promise you that I will produce evidence that horses have been killed at Appleby Horse Fair year after year after year.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM

Grimmy, as Liz pointed out, at least two of those deaths were road traffic accidents that did not actually take place at Appleby. And they WERE accidents - not willful abuse, such as the incident that happened this year. The "drowning" incident you most recently linked to is uncorroborated, and therefore no more than gossip and hearsay.

If regular animal abuse is going on, there should clearly be a stop put to it. If you can produce that evidence, brilliant.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:36 AM

2006
Meanwhile, the RSPCA is investigating the death of a horse, which collapsed and died outside the Grapes public house in The Sands, Appleby, in the early hours of June 12 morning. It is believed the horse was abandoned after being run up and down Battlebarrow, a number of times, before collapsing after becoming exhausted.

2005
The RSCPA usually records up to five injured horses a day. However, two horses died at the event, one dying from blood poisoning caused by stress. The owners of both horses failed to come forward.

Ruth, how many deaths do you want me to uncover before you are satisfied?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:22 AM

So if these are documented cases, and they have been investigated by the RSPCA, why has the RSPCA not instigated any large-scale reform?

I'm not talking about individuals on the ground, during the fair, who you say feel intimidated about interfering. I'm talking about reform at a higher level.

And if all of this is well known and documented, why did the police officer on the news report earlier in the thread refer to "one death in the past 10 years"?

With the greatest of respect, it doesn't seem to add up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:30 AM

In any case, I don't think we're going to achieve any resolution here with the "yes it is, no it isn't" dialogue. but before I bow out of this disacussion, I'd like to reiterate what i said yesterday: it does seem like there's an awful lot worse going on when it comes to animal abuse than what's going on at Appleby. The damage being done to animals and the environment in the racing and farming industries alone make Appleby a bit of a tempest in a teacup.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:38 AM

I quite agree.

You may well ask about the reaction of the RSPCA and police.

They've been brushing these incidents under the carpet for years.

It stinks.

Maybe this time, now that the whole world knows, something will be done.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:48 AM

And I would respectfully suggest that the other reason might be that by taking action against anything that happens at Appleby they would set a precedent for taking action against steeplechasing, greyhound racing etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 08:46 AM

I hope they take action whenever and wherever animal cruelty takes place.

At least this time they daren't do a cover-up, though don't expect an arrest anytime soon.

If you think I'm making all this up, here's a recent headline from the local paper quoting 'police sources':

Appleby Horse Fair: Peaceful - despite gun attack

Quite.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:07 AM

This may have already been said, but there seem to be alot of people on this thread wanting to ban this and ban that. However it is a fact that more horses are killed on the roads each year by assholes in cars.

Didnt notice anyone advocating the banning of cars??

Just a point to remember for those who say we shouldnt be on the road in the first place. Whilst we try really hard not to put our horses in danger we have no alternative but to use the public highway on occasions, to get from bridle path to bridle path.

Horses were on the roads long before cars and in many instances we still have right of way.

Whilst I do not condone what happened Appleby, it happens more often and nearer to home than you think, but does not get on the TV or in the papers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:21 AM

The PA,

Any horse death is to be regretted and I do not condone the negligence and/or ignorance of car drivers, but the incidents you describe come, rightly or wrongly, under the category of 'accident'.

I am talking about deliberate or reckless behaviour resulting in the death of a horse.

As an obvious horse lover, how do you react to this:

Horse death reflects worst aspects of fair
Saturday, 17 June 2006
THE RSPCA is appealing for information after the death of a horse at Appleby New Fair.

Police alerted the society to the horse which had collapsed outside The Grapes public house in The Sands, Appleby, in the early hours of Sunday. Despite the best efforts of RSPCA inspectors and two vets, the horse died.

It seems the animal was abandoned after being run up and down Battlebarrow, Appleby, a number of times. It is believed the horse then became exhausted and collapsed.

RSPCA chief inspector Brian Jeffries said: "This appalling incident reflects the worst of the animal welfare concerns at the Appleby fair. Despite efforts made by all those involved, incidents like this raise serious questions about how certain individuals conduct themselves whilst at the fair."

The RSPCA is seeking to identify the occupants of a blue Ford Transit flatbed lorry which was seen leaving the scene. Anybody with any information regarding this incident can call the RSPCA in confidence on its 24-hour cruelty hotline [phone].


(There were no arrests, BTW).

Some people on this thread have attempted to compare deaths at Appleby with, say, the racing industry. However, Appleby Fair only takes place during one week of the year, so the comparisons are meaningless. So far I have discovered 7 deaths since 2000 (there was no fair in 2001). That equates to seven weeks' worth of racing. I wonder how the figures stack up now?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM

They tried to stop Padstow because of gun incidents. Luckily, they failed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

I would question the ability of the Police or any animal welfare organisation to properly 'police' events such as Appleby.

No one really knows the origins/health/age of most of these horses and ponies. After a certain age older equines can be passed off as being much younger. To run a horse up and down a number of times for a prospective buyer (to check for lameness) can completely finish off an older horse. Therefore these animals are open to all sorts of abuse/crualty.

The difference with organised events such as eventing, racing and the like is that these sports have governing bodies and there are strict rules to adhere to. There are vets and farriers present. Even at our local show, there are strict rules as to how many classes any horse can enter on the day (only 3 for jumping classes - perhaps 2 minutes in the ring that equates to around 6 minutes work in one day) there are also rules covering the ages of horses and riders. There are also rules concerning the conduct of riders and their treatment of their horses, which can result in these people not only being sent from the ring but banned from the show. Believe me your name will soon become known if you are sent home.

None of these safe guards are in place at Appleby and I think that is the difference.

All I have to say about the RSPCA, is wellmeaning but through no fault of their own useless.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

. However, Appleby Fair only takes place during one week of the year, so the comparisons are meaningless. So far I have discovered 7 deaths since 2000 (there was no fair in 2001). That equates to seven weeks' worth of racing. I wonder how the figures stack up now?

You haven't a prayer on that one Grimmy.

In 2006 eleven horses died at the Cheltenham Festival meeting. Four day meeting.

March 7th 2007 four horses in one day at Stratford and Plumpton.

March 20th 2007 four in one day at Wincanton.

Those are public deaths, many more take place in training.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM

Grimmy

Some people on this thread have attempted to compare deaths at Appleby with, say, the racing industry. However, Appleby Fair only takes place during one week of the year, so the comparisons are meaningless. So far I have discovered 7 deaths since 2000 (there was no fair in 2001). That equates to seven weeks' worth of racing. I wonder how the figures stack up now?

Perhaps you didn't follow the link I gave before so here it is again - Animal Aid. Cheltenham is a four day event. The Grand National is a three day event.

Here are a few more -
http://www.peta.org.uk/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=152

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article431445.ece

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

Cruelty frequently happens in racing although rarely get reported. This report in the Daily Mail proved the exception yesterday at Royal Ascot.
Personally I would have banned the jockey for life.

CLICK

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM

"I am talking about deliberate or reckless behaviour resulting in the death of a horse."

Now please amend your sums (you can work together if you wish, though it looks like you already are!).

If we're including accidents, then my figures go through the roof.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

And why do people keep banging on about the National. What about the Derby? In flat racing horses are already racing at the age of 2, so, what age do you think they begin their training???? They're barely yearlings.

Most are completely knacked by the time they are 7, with horrendous leg problems, and are put out of their misery for the insurance payouts.   Assuming they still have 4 good leg, some go to retirement homes where they try to rehabilitate them.

Horses in other deciplins are not broken in (a term I personally hate) until they are 4, when they bodies are properly matured (half way through a flat racers career) and do not begin competing until they are 5.

If people want to protest, it should be about flat racing - go tell the blessed Franki Dettorri what you think of HIM.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

Yes I am sure they do. So do mine if you count those killed and injured in training. The ones killed in front of the horse-racing public are approximately 1/3rd of the total.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:09 PM

Cruelty frequently happens in racing although rarely get reported. This report in the Daily Mail proved the exception yesterday at Royal Ascot.
Personally I would have banned the jockey for life.

Frankie Dettori has a record of being banned as long as your arm. Including for excessive use of the whip. He also confessed to using drugs to keep his weight down.

But he won his first Derby this year and that made him untouchable.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

folkie dave,the daily wail again,.
I had a lookat the photograph of frankie Dettori,s horse,it looked alright,on the side I could see,the other horse is dead.A big difference, Iwould say.
Dettoris taking of drugs is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:45 PM

The point That I'm trying to make Dick , is that you can't bleat on about animal cruelty at Appleby without taking all forms of animal cruelty into consideration.

Do you really believe that, if Frankie Dettori's horse was all right, the Jockey Club would be placing a ban on him??

Would you have held the same opinion if the horse in question had been press so hard that it died of a heart attack or some other cause - which does often happen.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:25 PM

I dont know whether the horse was alright or not ,I am only able to judge from the one photograph I saw.
THE jockey club have to ban a jockey for excessive use of the whip.,how badly hurt the horse was none of us know.we do know that the other horse is dead.

I would agree with you that you cant bleat on about animal cruelty without taking all forms of animal cruelty into consideration.
meanwhile thousands of people are being tortured and are starving in Zimbabwe.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:32 PM

Nice of you to join in this one Dick, if a bit belatedly. We can all do abuse Dick.

I am delighted you can tell the condition of a horse from looking at a photograph. I am sure there are people who could use such a skill. Perhaps the damage was on the other side - or did that not occur to you?

Had you bothered to read the rest of the thread you will have noted I did indeed lament the lost of the horse at Appleby early on. But to save you the trouble of looking it up, here is my position again.

I lament the death or cruelty to any animal - I do not restrict myself as earlier correspondents did to Appleby Horse Fair - I am also concerned with the cruelty of horse racing too (as an example). That includes the use of a whip by jockeys. NB not the excessive use of the whip, any use of the whip. Frankie Dettori has a track record of being banned for use of the whip before and he did it again today.

In most sports people get banned for using drugs. Apparently this does not apply in horse racing except if you drug the horses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:20 PM

I said it looked alright on the side I could see[In other words its impossible to make a judgement without more photographs].Idont know whether the horse was alright or not , I am only able to judge from the one photograph Isaw.that is what I wrote.
Whats all this about doing abuse,what are you on about.
Keiran Fallon has just been banned from six months for abusing drugs,.other jockeys have been banned for longer,Dave your talking rubbish,jockeys do get banned for taking drugs

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:03 PM

OK - As the Original Poster of this thread, I will comment again. I posted the question, much as one would find an exam question, I thought, as in Blah de Blah de Blah: Discuss. Perhaps the references I provided were subliminally suggestional (?). They were, without doubt, relevant.

Yes, I think it is right, when considering Animal Cruelty to look at the widest panorama but even the most naive of people understand that, in order to do anything about anything you need to break things down into manageable bites and the message I seem to be receiving here is something along the lines of this:

The Traveller Culture is one 'we' would like to be associated with as it is compatible with our ideas about traditions and minority cultures, therefore we are reluctant to chastise it without further investigation. However we appreciate that there may be some areas of this culture which, if we were honest, we might have difficulty with ... however, we have found some other cultures, we don't have too much difficulty not defending, because we associate ourselves with them to a lesser degree. And, more so, because we associate them with people to whom we do not associate ourselves. So please can we sort them out first.

Am I right or am I wrong??    (Is this about people or is this about animals? I am not saying people should not rail against animal cruelty in racing (flat or otherwise). All I am saying is that it exists in other places too and, if what you are concerned about is animals, it does not matter a fig where you start.

This discussion is becoming less and less about animals and more and more about perceived prejudices (and these seem to be more uninformed than informed opinions, to be honest, because so few people have been to the event)

Thanking you

Blowz

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:28 PM

Actually, I think it's much more about keeping things in perspective. As in, you can get all morally indignant about a couple of incidents at Appleby, but if your real issue is animal cruelty, there are industries in this country which have institutionalised and thrive on animal cruelty.

So if you're gonna start a crusade, doesn't it make more sense to start with the big boys, where your efforts are actually going to make a difference?

And maybe there's a teeeny bit of reluctance to bow to the sensationalism of one case which just HAPPENS to take place within the traveller community, when there are many more incidences taking place every minute in mainstream industries patronised by posh people.

Yeah, get Appleby shut down. But what have you actually accomplished, when the racing, farming and food industries carry on abusing hundreds of animals every day?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:35 PM

Don't want to shut Appleby or aything else down. Want then to thrive .. as traditions,,, as cultural ambassadors etc ... without cruelty.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:42 PM

Dick - most sports ban people for a minimum of two years.

Rio Ferdinand got a year's ban for not turning up for a drug test.

So why wasn't Frankie banned for taking drugs? Taking drugs to aid performance is cheating.

If you couldn't make a judgement on Dettori's horse why bring the subject up saying it looked alright on the side you could see.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM

because it did look alright on the side I could see,its what is not shown that is important,How can anyone make a judgement on what is not shown.
I brought it up because you were making a judgement,you have not examined the horse,nor has anyone on this forum.
you come out with ridiculous statements about racing and drugs that only illustrate your ignorance.
as a matter of fact, I would also like to see the whip banned from horse racing altogether.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:05 PM

Dick you didn't even see the horse - just a photograph for goodness sake. And you accuse me of being ridiculous?

I didn't need to examine Frankie Dettori's horse - he was referred to the HRA for excessive use of the whip. He has been banned for it before.

People in sport generally get banned for two years for drug taking. In racing as you said Kieran Fallon got six months. Frankie Dettori got nothing.

Those are facts Dick not assertions.

Now which of those do you disagree with?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM

Blowzabella

The Traveller Culture is one 'we' would like to be associated with as it is compatible with our ideas about traditions and minority cultures, therefore we are reluctant to chastise it without further investigation.

Your original post and the title of the thread held the seeds of the idea that, on the basis of this one incident, the whole existence of the Appleby Horse Fair was open to question. Others took this theme further and laid the blame squarely on the whole Traveller community and stated that "they" should have their fair taken away from them.
A number of people, including myself, pointed out that National Hunt racing and three day eventing had far higher horse fatalities to the point that they are considered routine and an inevitable part of the "sport". Those attacking Appleby seemed singularly unimpressed by this. Grimmy in particular seems to think that these deaths are less blameworthy because they are accidents rather than the result of deliberate or reckless behaviour; a view that I find bizarre. Deliberately sending a horse round a course that has killed many horses before sounds very reckless to me.
It is evident from the accounts that the behaviour of this young man did not meet with the approval of the other festival goers and he was lucky to escape a beating (if indeed he did). The carnage at events like Cheltenham Festival and the Grand National, on the other hand, seem to be accepted as normal.
This can only lead to the suspicion that the critics of Appleby are less interested in the welfare of horses than they are in the opportunity to attack the Traveller community.

Chastising an entire community for the behaviour of one individual is racism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:47 AM

Dave. I disagree with your original statement,which was[In Most sports people get banned for using drugs,apparantly this doesnt apply in horse racing except if you drug the horses].This is untrue.
there have been nine jockeys[in England] that have tested positive for drug use in the last ten years,the frequency of drug testing on jockeys is being increased.
now can we stick to APPLEBY,if people wish to discuss racing then start a different thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:06 AM

Apprentice jockey David Long was banned for 18 days (described as a "long ban"!) for excessive use of the whip; flat jockey Robert Winston was banned for one year for race fixing.

It seems you can cheat and beat the living daylights out of a horse and not much happens - cheat by drugging the horse and you get a one year ban.

The point about jockeys testing positive for drugs (like Kieran Fallon) is that the crime is not sufficiently punished.

This is relevant to the Appleby question - see Snail's post

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:10 AM

The BHS (British Horse Socitey) estimates that more than 100 horses die on the roads each year in accidents involving motor vehicles.

I repeat my point I made earlier, which contributors seem to shy away from, why are we not criticising motorist for their involvement in these accidents. Is it because we all like our cars too much and its easier to have a go at the organisers of equestrian sports when a horse is killed or injured.

I would also like to point out that at this year's Badminton horse trials, whilst two horses did die, most of the top competitors pulled out of the cross country phase because they considered the ground was too hard. Between the dressage and the cross country all the horses are inspected by three vets to ensure that they are fit to continue. Please do not assume that all of these people are uncaring.

How many horses at Appleby are inspected by vets before they are run-up for the buyers - NONE.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:56 AM

Folkie Dave ,if that is what you meant, youshould have said that in the first place,instead of your original post[relating to jockeys and drugs] ,which was uninformed codswallop.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:31 AM

"Grimmy in particular seems to think that these deaths are less blameworthy because they are accidents rather than the result of deliberate or reckless behaviour; a view that I find bizarre. Deliberately sending a horse round a course that has killed many horses before sounds very reckless to me."

I draw a very definite distinction, TheSnail, between bashing a horse over the head with a crowbar (which I have personally witnessed at Appleby) and sending a horse around a course where it may be injured or killed. I condemn both acts, but I know which is worse, because there is a mental process involved too.

And actually guys, YES - I CAN just talk about animal cruelty at Appleby here, because THAT'S WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT. Feel free to take Dick's advice and start another thread if you want to (especially if you've never actually been to Appleby). I will be happy to contribute to it and would support you in your condemnation of cruelty wherever it exists, including a ban on horse racing.

You may have your 'suspicions', TheSnail. So do I. Whenever the word 'tradition' crops up a certain group of people start to circle the wagons and a 'don't mention the war' mentality creeps in.

As soon as I started to document illegal and cruel practises going on at Appleby we had the 'oh, it's a one-off', 'it's out of proportion', 'it's not as bad as ......' and of course, when all else fails, 'this is racism' (doesn't that word just slip out so easily?).

Let me make my position crystal clear:

There have been repeated incidents of extreme animal cruelty year on year at Appleby Horse Fair.
These incidents have been largely ignored, hushed up or 'undetected' by the authorities.
This is unacceptable and must cease.
The fact that these incidents have been perpetrated by travellers, or taken place as part of a tradition, is an immense irrelevance.
I want Appleby Horse Fair to continue.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:14 AM

Grimmy

bashing a horse over the head with a crowbar (which I have personally witnessed at Appleby)

Where the blue blind blazes did that come from? Why haven't you mentioned this before? Were there any other witnesses? What was their reaction? Did you report it to the police or the RSPCA?

YES - I CAN just talk about animal cruelty at Appleby here, because THAT'S WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT.

If you're going to be that picky, it's actually about the single drowning incident. If you are broadening it to cruelty at Appleby in general, then comparisons with other horse events are perfectly legitimate.

Whenever the word 'tradition' crops up

I don't think I've mentioned tradition. Cheltenham Festival and the Grand National are traditions in their own way.

There have been repeated incidents of extreme animal cruelty year on year at Appleby Horse Fair.
These incidents have been largely ignored, hushed up or 'undetected' by the authorities.
This is unacceptable and must cease.

So what else are you doing about it apart from arguing here which can achieve nothing to stop it?

The fact that these incidents have been perpetrated by travellers, or taken place as part of a tradition, is an immense irrelevance.

Actually, it's implicit in the title of the thread.

I want Appleby Horse Fair to continue.

Why, if you are convinced the cruelty is a fundamental part of it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:51 AM

TheSnail

Did you report it to the police or the RSPCA?
OF COURSE I DID. By the time I'd found a police officer, and by the time he decided to do something about it, the horse had been 'spirited away' (happens a lot).

I don't think I've mentioned tradition
I don't think I mentioned that you did.

Actually, it's implicit in the title of the thread.
Who's being picky now?

So what else are you doing about it apart from arguing here which can achieve nothing to stop it?
I wondered when that would come. I refuse to answer. Why are you arguing?

Why, if you are convinced the cruelty is a fundamental part of it?
I said no such thing. I want the Fair to continue, but not at any price. The cruelty must stop.

Just out of interest - why are you so belligerent towards someone who shares your abhorrence of horse cruelty?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:31 PM

Grimmy

Why are you arguing?

Read my post of 20 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM

Just out of interest - why are you so belligerent towards someone who shares your abhorrence of horse cruelty?

My problem is, that your abhorrence of horse cruelty (and that of several other posters to this thread) seems to be very selective. You are passionately concerned about Appleby Horse Fair but dismissive of the much higher death rate at respectable, establishment events. (Two deaths at this years 3 day Badminton horse trials for instance.) As I have said, that raises the suspicion that some on this list are more concerned about the people they see as responsible than the horses. Nothing you have said recently has allayed that suspicion. (Lizzie Cornish seems to have gone a bit quiet.)

While I am as concerned as anyone about cruelty to horses, what I am more concerned about is infiltration of the folk scene by the right wing who see it as an opportunity to further their cause. If that is not your position, I apologise, but I could do with some reassurance.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM

Lizzie Cornish seems to have gone a bit quiet

So, remarkably has ShockedandAppalledinReading.

Still no doubt she/they will be back.......

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:22 AM

what I am more concerned about is infiltration of the folk scene by the right wing

Well well. So there it is.

I suggest you get back behind your circle of wagons, take your paranoia and your twisted imaginings with you, and leave this thread to those who actually care about the welfare of horses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:52 AM

I had a chat about Appleby (among other things) last night with a travelling gentleman who frequents my village. He is a lovely man, who has only missed Appleby twice in his 60-odd years. He travels with a traditional vardo and horses most of the time, and is a horse breeder. Two of his horses were sold at Appleby this year.


We talked about the drowning incident. He told me, first of all, that the news reports about ducking the horse's heads under water as a regular activity are rubbish. He said, "As soon as that horse's ears went under water, it was going to drown. You never duck a horse's head completely under the water like that."

I'm not a horse person, so I can't vouch for the truth in that statement. But I'm bowing to his superior knowledge.

He also said that the habit of riding the horses up and down, hard, and knackering them to the point of exhaustion and ill health, is something that's come about in "the younger generation. A travelling man's horses are his life. He won't do anything to harm them. But these youngsters, the way they ride them at Appleby...that should be stopped."

Which I found interesting. I didn't ask about other types of abuse of horses, as these are delicate subjects and have to be approached carefully. But I thought it was interesting to add the perspective of someone from the travelling community.

He also told me that the drowned horse had only just been bought for £16,000.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:24 AM

Thanks for that Ruth. It's good to hear all sides of the story. It coincides with my own experiences of talking with the older travellers, who love and value their horses - it's the younger generation causing the problems.

The question is how to stop the abuse. If the authorites come down hard (and they may well after this year's bad publicity), then that could make the problem worse. A lot of the 'dodgy' goings-on take place away from the public gaze, a mob-handed approach may well drive the culprits further underground.

Ideally, the travellers should police themselves but, as they come to Appleby from all over the place, I don't know how that would work.

I hope a solution can be found soon, because the situation seems to be getting worse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

As it happens, I'm going to see George again this evening to record some reminiscences (and hopefully some songs, if he's in the mood). If we get round to Appleby again I'll ask him what he thinks. After all, he said "it ought to be stopped." I wonder if he has any ideas about who should stop it, and how?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

I'd certainly be interested to hear what he has to say, Ruth. The lack of proper control has dogged the event for donkeys' years:

"APPLEBY horse fair cannot be allowed to carry on "in an uncontrolled and unacceptable manner" and changes must be made to protect public safety, Eden district councillors will hear Thursday night.
Concerns about lack of organisation, management and serious safety risks at Britain's largest horse fair, which attracts thousands of travellers, gypsy horse dealers and visitors every second week in June, will be outlined to members of the environment committee".

That was back in 2003!

The Town Council, which actually owns Fair Hill, has washed its hands
of the whole affair. I think they're scared of possible legal ramifications if ever the balloon goes up.

Your friend George sounds a decent bloke, I hope you manage to squeeze some songs out of him!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:39 AM

Decent doesn't begin to describe. He's a gentleman in every sense of the word.

I think one of the things that concerns people who might be reading and responsding to this thread (I know it's something that concerns me) is that if you start talking about policing and regulating one traditional custom, what's to stop all the others coming under scrutiny? If you've ever been to any of the traditional football games, for instance, you'll know that they're hardly the sanitised, folked-up, gentrified affairs that some first-time visitors may expect. Some of them are pretty red in tooth and claw; many involve a lot of drunkenness, injury to participants, and picturesque villages drowning in litter and filth.

But the thing about these events is that they haven't been taken over by "folkies" - they're folk events precisely because they really belong to the people, and because this is the way they have ALWAYS been conducted. This is England's living folk heritage, precisely because it's not folkies who do it and because it's not been regulated and sanitised.

I don't approve of animal cruelty. And I still believe that if abuse of horses is the crux of this issue, there are much worse institutionalised offenders than the participants at Appleby - numbers alone tell you that. But on the other hand, it's dangerous to turn a blind eye in the interest of preserving tradition. That's why the issues of who should be responsible for regulating certain activities at the fair, and how it could be done, is of paramount importance.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:47 PM

Ruth, I agree with much of what you say. There is a certain 'robustness' associated with the Appleby tradition which I would not wish it to lose.

But there must always be a balance - the feelings and sensibilities of the onlookers and the local residents cannot be ignored. Not to mention the law of the land. It is my opinion that, in recent years certainly, the excesses of a youthful minority have gone too far.

The cruelty and suffering that have taken place are not part of the tradition. Indeed they serve only to bring that tradition into disrepute. And therein lies the danger - it's not the number of horses which die every year, it's the manner of their deaths.

Public opinion is a fickle creature. An animal-loving nation which tacitly accepts horse racing deaths, yet demands the banning of fox hunting, will not baulk at calling for an end to the Appleby tradition if it perceives that the deaths are unnecessary and preventable.

I just hope that something is done about it soon, because people are not going to tolerate many more incidents such as the dreadful one that occurred this year.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:01 PM

Thanks for your comments, Ruth - it is good to hear what a member of the travelling comminity had to say about it and it concurrs with my own thoughts on the event.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:17 PM

Grimmy

I suggest you get back behind your circle of wagons, take your paranoia and your twisted imaginings with you, and leave this thread to those who actually care about the welfare of horses.

Well, you did ask.

I'm sorry you felt the need to respond in that manner. I have done my best to communicate in as polite a way as I could in the face of some very disturbing statements.

May I remind you of some of the things you have said?

I've witnessed horses being kicked, punched, head-butted, whipped, beaten with sticks, run into the ground.
Indeed, the reason I no longer attend is because of the mindless cruelty inflicted on those poor beasts YEAR AFTER YEAR.
I can also tell you that you won't get many eye-witness accounts from the local residents (many of whom are my relatives) because they stay in their homes with all the windows and doors locked during the fair week.
That's the 'reality' of Appleby Horse Fair.

The RSPCA and the local police are sh*t scared to intervene in case they provoke an 'incident'.
Besides, the travellers are very adept (having been doing it since 1685) at conducting their activities out of sight of the authorities. There is an 'official' fair for the benefit of the visitors and an 'unofficial' one for the serious dealing - and that's the one very few people get to see.

Where are the dog fighting images? The sheep stealing pics? The drunken fighting photos? The cottages with ivy around the door and human excrement on the lawn?
For a proper balanced view, speak to the locals as well as the visitors. Except that they'll still be clearing up the mess for the next two weeks.

You also cited the following web pages. Could you explain what they have to do with cruelty to horses?

http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.951592.0.appleby_horse_fair_arrest.php
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.500103.0.incidents_mar_horse_fair_success.php
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.497266.0.fire_crews_attacked_at_appleby_fair.php

You say "If we're including accidents, then my figures go through the roof.", yet you include these horse deaths amongst the Appleby score -

On Tuesday (June 6) a horse, which was being ridden by a traveller, was killed after it ran out in front of a Land Rover Discovery driven by a 19-year-old woman from Ingleton at Devil's Bridge, near Kirkby Lonsdale.

Police also believe that a horse killed by a van on the A65 at Newby, near Ingleton, belonged to a traveller.

In your more recent postings -

it's not the number of horses which die every year, it's the manner of their deaths.

So what do you really care about, the horses or the motivation of their owners?

An animal-loving nation .......... will not baulk at calling for an end to the Appleby tradition if it perceives that the deaths are unnecessary and preventable.

What are you saying, that the deaths in National Hunt and Cheltenham Festival and Badminton are "necessary and unpreventable"?

While the incident at Appleby was clearly appalling, the Fair seems to have a far better record than the "establishment" horse events. Please decide exactly what you are attacking.

As for being paranoid about right wing infiltration, I've a few issues to work out locally but I may be starting a new thread on the subect.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:20 AM

I would completely dispute the price of £16,000.00 for a coloured cob. These horses, considered by some (unfairly I may add)to be the mongrels of the equine world, can be picked up anywhere for £50.00 to £500.00. You would expect to pay £16,000.00 for a talented showjumper, eventer or dressage horse. This throws into doubt the rest of the comments made by this 'traveller', that he's a 'horse breeder', not something that can be managed well if you are on the move, where do you keep the mare when she's heavily in foal, how do you manage the stallion, where is the foal born - at the side of the road. As for a horse drowning if its ears go under the water - not true. Horses are actually fair swimmers if not interfered with by people.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:38 AM

TheSnail

I really can't be arsed trawling through all your ramblings.

Anyone who has read my posts will understand that I have highlighted various abuses at Appleby Fair that could give the authorities reasons to ban it. The horse cruelty, which strikes a particular nerve in the public conscience, would be the most likely excuse.

If you can't see that then there's no hope for you.

As for being paranoid about right wing infiltration, I've a few issues to work out locally

Start with inside your head.

I have done my best to communicate in as polite a way as I could in the face of some very disturbing statements.

So have I, including your insinuation that I'm a right-wing infiltrator. Now piss off.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 07:44 AM

Now that Grimmy has confirmed that he is only interested in horse cruelty as a means of attacking Appleby Horse Fair not as a cause in itself, I will take his advice and politely piss off.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 08:12 AM

I don't think that what Grimmy has done could be described as 'attacking' Appleby Horse Fair, to be fair. What he has done is comment on certain aspects of it. He has said over and over again that he wishes it to continue and that he does not wish to see it become a sanitised shadow of itself - but that there are aspects of it at present, which could lead to public opinion turning against it - namely the examples of cruelty / mistreatment which have variously been posted. I don't think that is attacking.

I'm trying to cite a relevant but unrelated example here - supposing, for instance, an accident happened in a workplace and concerns were raised about the working conditions of the employees. Would that be seen as attacking the industry?

Of course there are a myriad of other forms of animal cruelty but I don't see that discussing one particular example suggests that you are turning a blind eye to - or condoning - the rest. In fact the discussion here seems to have been more about concern that the event could be stopped because of some of the youth element (which Ruth's acquaintance seems to have confirmed is the main problem), rather than any outright call for it to be stopped. I can only think that you are particularly prickly about finding condemnation where there is none - or have some other point to try and make?

Yes, I will condemn cruelty where I see it - I would not, however, like to imagine that the event could not continue without it. Are you suggesting that it is absolutely inherent and that incidents of cruelty should be tolerated because the event / tradition is more important? I am genuinely not sure what you were saying.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 08:57 AM

Blowzabella

I'd really like to bow out of this, my head's starting to hurt but I can't let this pass.

Are you suggesting that it is absolutely inherent

Certainly not. You started the ball rolling with a thread title that implied that this single incident brought the whole future of the fair into question. Others, for whom Grimmy now seems to have become the principle flag bearer, set about digging out more and more evidence to try and prove that cruelty is endemic. Much of this was hearsay or irrelevant (cruelty to fire engines?) or poorly documented. Grimmy seems to have been the only witness to the crowbar incident. Why do travellers' horses killed in traffic accidents miles from Appleby give evidence of cruelty at the fair?

The comparison with more "respectable" horse events shows that Appleby is, in fact, remarkably safe. The determination to find yet more evidence of cruelty, no matter how obscure, suggests to me that attacking Appleby is more important to some people than preventing cruelty to horses.

I gave Grimmy the opportunity to clarify his position and he descended into personal abuse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 11:28 AM

TheSnail

While I am as concerned as anyone about cruelty to horses, what I am more concerned about is infiltration of the folk scene by the right wing who see it as an opportunity to further their cause

Well, you have certainly clarified your position.

I'm quite happy to let people decide, from the evidence on this thread, which is the more likely:

1) As someone who has actually been to Appleby Fair some 30 odd times, that I am part of some right-wing conspiracy to bring about its demise, or

2) That you are some self-appointed "super-hero" of the folk scene, bulldozing evidence aside in your witch-hunt to expose the incursions of an 'enemy' which exists solely in your twisted mind.

And if you accuse me of being a right-wing infiltrator, then you get personal abuse. OK?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,Aimee devon
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 07:35 PM

bloody disgustin..find that flippin gypsy and kill him, what an arse hole... when i saw that poor horse in the paper, i wanted to know why? why the hell wasnt everyone jumpin in the water when they could see that some fucking stupid loser gypsy is hurtin the poor thing... they could probally see that that wasnt right... just pure wrong and evil, really really upset me that has....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

UPDATE

I reproduce here in full an article from the Cumberland and Westmorland Herald. The comments on both sides of the argument are interesting.

Call for "fundamental rethink" over Appleby fair
Monday, 25 June 2007

DRAMATIC changes are being called for at Appleby New Fair following this year's horse drowning and a record number of complaints.

MP for Penrith and the Border David Maclean is urging a "fundamental rethink" over the fair, while animal welfare charities are calling for the practice of washing horses in the River Eden to be banned.

Mr. Maclean said the fair needed to be turned into "a properly controlled fun festival for a week rather than something where local people put up the shutters and evacuate the area". He said it should also benefit local people and businesses.

"We need a fresh look at this mega event. We can be the only place in the country that gets 30,000 visitors and yet the town council, district council and county council end up out of pocket and we have appalling incidents like the horse drowning and litter on a massive scale," continued the MP.

Mr. Maclean said he had received more complaints this year than ever before but that, with record numbers of people attending, the public authorities had coped as well as could be expected with their limited powers.

Also this week, the British Horse Society and RSPCA have criticised the practice of submerging horses' heads in the River Eden. Lee Hackett, welfare senior executive for the British Horse Society, said: "Witnesses report that the horse's rider repeatedly dunked the animal's head until it failed to re-emerge, causing the rider to flee the scene.

"The drowning of a young horse is clearly abhorrent and, although it would seem to be a tragic one-off event, it is essential steps are taken to ensure it cannot happen again. The practice of completely submerging horses' heads is archaic and serves no clear purpose."

A spokesman for the RSPCA added: "We would back any call to ban the submersion of horses' heads at Appleby as we feel it is unjustified and dangerous."

The spokesman added that they wanted a restriction so no horse would be allowed in the water without a head collar and a head rope, which must be less than a metre long, so increasing the safety of horses.

However, the suggestions have been slated by gypsy traveller spokesman Billy Welch, who said using a rope would pose a serious danger to both horse and owner and had been to blame for the tragic death of the horse at this year's fair.

In the drowning, Mr. Welch claims the horse had a rope around its nose which became caught on its hoof in the water. As the animal struggled, it repeatedly pulled its own head into the water rather than being dunked by the owner. He said the owner was not a part of the travelling community and was simply inexperienced.

"You never go into deep water with a rope on the horse. The lad was trying his best to pull it out. They should only be going in with reins on because, if they get caught, they will snap, but a rope doesn't. The RSPCA are inexperienced in horses. The last thing we want to do is put a horse in danger — it's the opposite of our culture and way of thinking," he said.

"All this is just an excuse for the anti-fair lobbying; it's poor but it's the only one they can grasp," continued Mr. Welch, adding that the tradition of washing horses in the River Eden had been followed for centuries and would never be stopped.

Mr. Welch also commented on the mass of complaints about litter in the town over fair week and said Eden council had just been overwhelmed because of the sheer volume of people — visitors, travellers and gypsies alike.

A number of residents have, in fact, praised the council for the speedy cleanup operation following the end of the fair, with Appleby being described as "spotless".

Daily litter picking, refuse collections and mechanical sweeps were undertaken throughout the fair by Eden District Council, along with introduction of an additional litter picking gang on Tuesday. An estimated two tonnes of litter and rubbish was removed from the town centre each day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:07 AM

Sorry, but absolute bollocks from that Billy Welch prat, if the horse was not in the water in the first place this would not have happened. As for not wishing to put horses in danger - yeh right thats why they have them tethered by chains to the side of busy roads. Culture - my arse! If I treated the horses on my yard in the same manner I'd be prosecuted and the yard closed. They get away with murder because the RSPCA, BHS etc are scared of confrontation.

Anyway thats just my opinion - rant over.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:08 AM

"This throws into doubt the rest of the comments made by this 'traveller', that he's a 'horse breeder', not something that can be managed well if you are on the move, where do you keep the mare when she's heavily in foal, how do you manage the stallion, where is the foal born - at the side of the road. As for a horse drowning if its ears go under the water - not true."

So how much do you know about travellers who breed horses? There are plenty of them. Just because you're a traveller doesn't mean you don't own land, nor that the horses you have with you at the time are the only ones you own. George rents a field near my village from a local farmer, co-owns a piece of land near Doncaster with another traveller, and also has some land (not sure if it's rented or owned) in the Vale of Belvoir. That's where he keeps his horses - and he has a fair few. He also owns more than one vardo, and has various places where he keeps the ones he's not currently travelling with. I know this is true - i've seen at least two of them myself.

You can put "traveller" in brackets all you like. He's the genuine article. I was looking at his family photos last weekend - they go back generations. I met his sister on Saturday, and his nephew on Sunday.

Consequently, I know who he is. But I don't know who you are, PA, so I know who I choose to believe.

By the way, we discussed Appleby again. Conclusions? Well, there weren't any. George deplores the attitude of the younger generation, yet can't see any obvious solution. Outside intervention would be met with hostility, and there's no obvious group within the travelling community who could police it without causing the equivalent of civil war.

Not particularly promising.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

Oh and another thing.

As from February 2004 every horse, pony and donkey in the UK is supposed to have a passport, containing all its details, bit like a car log book, but including all its vaccinations, vet treatment, previous owners etc complete with description of the horse. They cost around £20 - £40 just for the paperwork and then have to be signed by a Vet which can cost, including call-out, anything up to £50.00. In some counties the Police actively stop and check passports or horses being ridden on the roads. Its some EU crap. Anyway you're not supposed to sell horses without them. There's something like a £2,000.00 fine for not having one. So, Ok how many of those horses changing hands at Appleby had their passports checked by the Police, RSPCA, before they were sold? Like I said, they get away with it because the authorities are scared. Drag them into line with everyone else, or close it why should they be treated any differently from the rest of the horsie community.

Like I said tradition/culture - my arse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM

The "horsie community" is responsible for dozens more deaths of horses than anything that happens at Appleby, as highlighted earlier, at eventing, race meetings etc. Why should you lot be held up as shining examples of good practice?

community - my arse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM

Ruth Archer - I accept what you say regarding who you know and who you believe. All I can say to that is that I feel I am qualified to speak about horse welfare. My family come originally from southern Ireland. We have been involved in horses, breeding, competing, riding etc for almost 150 years (I havnt researched any further back yet). Personally, I have been involved with horses all my life, over 50 years). Including riding, breeding, competing. I still compete in eventing and showing as does my son. We own a medium sized livery/competition yard and also accept abused horses, including crualty cases, for a national charity. We have two at the moment. One pony had the crap beaten out of her for fun by 'travellers' in the East Anglia area. They only handed her over to the charity because she was quite literally on her last legs. My yard is inspected regularly especially, every 3 to 6 months for the rescue horses. Last week we were give a 5 star rating for the care of the horses. Tethering horses by the side of the road with chains, running horses up on roads, and dunking them in rivers is simply not acceptable - it doesnt matter who you are.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:57 AM

Round here I've only seen horses tethered with rope, not chains.

I think that the point people have repeatedly made on this thread is that there is an institutionalised level of abuse that happens within industries associated with horses. But because these are seen as the necessary risks of the trade, and those within the industries and fraternities involved have money and influence, such practice goes unchallenged. I think it's been demonstrated that far more horses die as a result of these industries than die as a result of events like Appleby and Stowe.

Presumably you challenge all these risks to animal welfare at eventing and race meetings you may attend and - dare I say it - within the local hunt?

These people profess to love their animals; so do travellers. But in both cases, there seems to be another side to the story.

My hope is that you aren't choosing the easy target as a vent for your anger and frustration, while ignoring the much larger-scale, institutionalised abuse that is accepted as a necessary evil by the "horsie community".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:44 AM

Of course more horses die in racing and eventing, there are more race meetings and events than there are horse fairs. That's obvious.

I'd be interest to know what you mean by 'institutionalised abuse'? The FEI investigate accidents and deaths to horses, and riders, for that matter when these instances occur, and improvements to courses and fences are enforced. Their reports and statistics are freely available on their website. It is simply not true to state that these incidents go unchallenged because the people involved have money. All the people on my yard who compete also hold down full time jobs in order to pay for their horses. Personally, I run my yard and work fulltime 8 – 5 five days per week. Training takes place between 5 and 6 in the morning or in the evenings.

Just for the record my horse is 14 and has competed all his life. He has never been lame or ill, the only time he's seen the vet is for his annual vaccinations and check up. He is fed on top quality organic food approved by the vegetarian society. I do not believe in artificial supplements or drugs. Does that sound like a horse that's been 'abused'.?

As for challenging the risks at events yes I have seen showjumping classes where there has been one competitor because everyone else withdrew because either the going was too hard or the fences were unsuitable. All the top riders pulled out of the cross country section of Badminton this year because they considered the ground too hard.

For all these reasons, yes I do hold my self up as a shining example of good example and I'm proud of it. And we are not in the minority.

If the travelling community are such an 'easy target' as you suggest, why are they not being attacked by the animal welfare groups or investigated by the Police or the animal welfare charities? Because they fear retaliation – that's why.

My main concern is the welfare of these horses. We have standards to meet and rules to adhere to, whether you choose to believe it or not. The activities I have mentioned previously at these horse fairs actually contravene the Animal Welfare Act 2006. Why should one group be allowed to get away with it when another cannot?

I have made these points because of your sweeping generalisations and attacks on people involved in a sport or activity of which you say yourself in an earlier post you know nothing about.    Take the blinkers off Ruth Archer – give them back to the horse. Oh and you may be interested to know that I do not and never have hunted and wholeheartedly support the hunting ban. Don't tar everyone with the same brush, just because its your only argument.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:12 AM

By institutionalised abuse, I mean that I can't think of any other sport or activity where animals regularly die in numbers, often several on one day, and this is considered to be an unfortunate but acceptable by-product of the sport. Never mind the sort of public flaying frankie dettori gave to his horse last week - again, a slap on the wrist resulted, not a public outcry.

This is being compared to activity like tethering ponies at the side of the road and their risk of being hit by a car.

I did not mean to cast personal aspersions - I'm sure you're a fine chap who loves his horses and his mum. But, as has been demonstrated ad infinitum, there are a hell of a lot more horses dying on the "respectable" fields and courses of the racing industry than at Appleby. And not just because there are more race meetings: take an annual event like the Grand National. One day per year. A lot more horses dying than ever do at Appleby Fair.

I did say earlier that I don't think a blind eye should be turned to the abuse which is alleged to happen at Appleby, but the response DOES have to be a sensitive one. You, on the other hand, came out all guns blazing against the event: "Culture - my arse!" - they are only pikeys, after all, eh, PA?

Somehow it's okay to watch horses being whipped, drugged to the eyeballs and killed, so long as you're wearing a nice hat. Okay, yah.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:23 AM

Oh I see now :

Racing, Eventing etc    -    BAD, because its the preserve of the rich.

Drowning horses at Appleby    -    GOOD, because its tradition and carried out by cheerie old characters who can spin a good yarn.

Silly me why didnt I see that in the first place.

And, it was you who called them 'pikeys', love not me. Oh an I dont do hats.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:51 AM

Errr...no.

What happened was some loud and not particularly well-informed people banging on about getting Appleby shut down because of a horse being drowned. As some of us actually do care about heritage and tradition, we pointed out that, if the issue is REALLY animal rights, there are two things that need to happen: firstly, the abuse at Appleby needs to be quantified and substantiated. Secondly, it needs to be PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE against the numbers of "accidental" deaths which are accepted as part and parcel of racing, eventing and hunting - sports which cause many, many more deaths than Appleby does each year.

YOU were the one who said "Culture - me arse!". Well, perhaps that's the way some if us feel about your "horsie community" if it will cast aspertions at events like Appleby while ignoring the buggering great cinder in its own eye.

Tell me, how often do you go onto racing and eventing forums and demand that they get their own house in order?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:53 AM

By the way, you can change the statement

"Racing, Eventing etc    -    BAD, because its the preserve of the rich.

Drowning horses at Appleby    -    GOOD, because its tradition and carried out by cheerie old characters who can spin a good yarn."

to

"KILLING QUANTITIES OF HORSES at Racing, Eventing etc    -    BAD, because its the preserve of the rich.

Drowning horses at Appleby    -    GOOD, because its tradition and carried out by cheerie old characters who can spin a good yarn."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 05:15 AM

All these dead horses my friends and I are responsible for, had to clamber over a pile of them this morning - just to get to me Range Rover - yes I really do drive one.

And at last, you admit it you think drowning horses at Appleby is OK.

I live and work with horses I am not ill-informed - you are.

You just want to tar everyone with the same brush because someone may question whether a so called tradition has outlived its sell-by date. These things happen, what was once a cute tradition is now a cruel and distasteful practice no longer suitable for the modern world we live in exactly the same as children up chimneys, bear baiting, bull baiting and more recently fox hunting. The sooner we put an end to this, along with cock fighting, dog fighting and badger baiting the better for all, or maybe you think those are traditions worth preserving as well because it part of their 'culture'.

You and your traveller friends are just going to have to accept it and move on.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 06:54 AM

Rational debate is obviously pointless so here are a few random thoughts.

Grimmy

The comments on both sides of the argument are interesting.

        ....and a refreshing change. Good to see someone actually talking to the travellers instead of just regarding them as an amorphous mob. The PA's response was sadly predictable.

The PA

We have two at the moment. One pony had the crap beaten out of her for fun by 'travellers' in the East Anglia area.

And the other one? Not 'travellers' or you would have said so.

Of course more horses die in racing and eventing, there are more race meetings and events than there are horse fairs. That's obvious.

So far on the "evidence" produced, 2 or 3 deaths at Appleby over the last ten years; equivalent to one day of the 2006 Cheltenham Festival or one average Grand National.

All the top riders pulled out of the cross country section of Badminton this year because they considered the ground too hard.

....and two horses died.

If the travelling community are such an 'easy target' as you suggest, why are they not being attacked by the animal welfare groups or investigated by the Police or the animal welfare charities? Because they fear retaliation – that's why.

From the newspaper article quoted by Grimmy -

>>MP for Penrith and the Border David Maclean is urging a "fundamental rethink" over the fair,
>>while animal welfare charities are calling for the practice of washing horses in the
>>River Eden to be banned.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush, just because its your only argument.

I quite agree. I'm sure it's not something you would ever do yourself, PA.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:00 AM

"And at last, you admit it you think drowning horses at Appleby is OK."

Rubbish. It's the opposite of what everyone here has been saying from the start. I was pointing out a semantic inaccuracy which you'd deliberately created for effect, which is a manipulative and dishonest way to conduct an argument.

"These things happen, what was once a cute tradition is now a cruel and distasteful practice no longer suitable for the modern world..."

If that's true, it's much truer of racing and eventing. You still have not answered any of the criticisms directed at these sports. You haven't told us whether you go onto their internet forums to complain about the quantity of death, excessive whipping and drugging that goes on. Surely it's much more important to end the sports responsible for large quantities of death and harm to animals than to persecute one small annual event. So why aren't you going after them?

"exactly the same as children up chimneys, bear baiting, bull baiting and more recently fox hunting."

Again, PA, let's at least try to maintain some perspective. Appleby is not an event that exists to perpetuate cruelty: no one here has suggested that all, or even most, horses at Appleby are badly treated. Some may well be, and yes, measures that are both effective and sensitive ought to be considered. But tell me: as so many horses die in the racing industry, surely THAT is actually the outdated pracice which, along with cock-fighting bull-bating etc, ought to be stopped?

You may live and work with horses, but you won't accept the criticisms directed at your industry. I may not know about working with horses, but I never claimed I did and that's irrelevant to this argument. I CAN read statistics, though, and I can see the disparity between the numbers of horses killed each year at, say, the Grand National and the ones killed at Appleby.

Pots and kettles...motes and cinders...take your pick.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:13 AM

In court, a shoplifter claims that far more money is stolen by corrupt 'big business', that the police should be out there chasing the 'real villains' and not wasting everybody's time with such small fry. Valid arguments maybe, but no defence.

The biggest threat to Appleby Fair is complacency. Those who would deny the abuses, ignore them, or even justify them merely leave the door open for those who would seek to ban it.

The politicians have got hold of it now - and that should worry people. I don't think many on this thread realise the scale of resentment felt by the local community towards the fair. You may choose to ignore it - politicians dare not. David Maclean MP will feel obliged to spit bile to appease his constituents; we must hope he doesn't take it any further.

Governments look for easy targets (smokers, hunters, druggies). Ask yourself which activity would be easier to ban: Appleby or horse racing. Then ask yourself which activity would require the least adjustment to bring it within public acceptance: Appleby or horse racing.

All I want is for the Fair to continue - minus the abuse. Is that too much to ask?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:46 AM

I have NEVER EVER, in any of my posts (go back and read them carefully) defended nor denied the alleged cruelty or deaths connected with horse sports. If you stop your hysterical rant for one moment and read what I have previously posted you will see that I have openly criticised flat racing along with other sports. I have criticised Franki Dettori myself.

My point, and I'll repeat it again, is the fact that we, as competitors and horse owners, have to adhere to rules and regulations and standards layed down by the governing body of that sport, the British Horse Society, the breed societys and British Riding Club Rules, and equine welfare organisations. Those standards may not be perfect, and are being improved upon year by year. At least thats a start. Yet we are the people YOU seek to criticise.

The people who participate in the events taking place at Appleby and Stow do not, they have no govening body. They are a law unto themselves, and god help anyone who tries to intervene. I have attended horsefairs with Horsewatch and neither we the RSPCA or our vet were particularly welcome. The horses at Appleby have no-one to watch out for them.

They will not even agree to 'police' themselves, if they did they would have caught the person's responsible for the deaths of both horses - yes there were two not one. The other horse that collapsed and died was just abandoned on the roadside.

Racing and eventing is open to the public, everyone can see what goes on, that makes those industries the 'easy target'. The fact is that at Appleby they do not want 'outsiders' seeing what goes on at these fairs - What are they hiding??

I have attended horsefairs, markets, auction sales and abatiors as well as competing. I have seen where the welfare of horses is the issue and have a far wider view of crualty in the horse world - I have never denied that it exists and certainly take exception to your implying that I do.

How may events, shows, races, markets etc etc have you attended? (and I would like an answer to that please). Where do you get your knowledge and experience.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:12 AM

At the risk of attracting more personal abuse -

Grimmy

In court, a shoplifter claims that far more money is stolen by corrupt 'big business', that the police should be out there chasing the 'real villains' and not wasting everybody's time with such small fry. Valid arguments maybe, but no defence.

To make that analogy comparable you have to hold the shoplifter's entire community collectively responsible, dragging up every misdemeanour any of them have ever committed, and threaten their whole way of life while dismissing the big business corruption as normal practice.

I really can't work out your position, Grimmy. If you want Appleby to continue, why do you keep digging out more evidence to demonise the participants? You have painted a picture of horse torturing, sheep stealing, garden polluting, fire engine abusing, rapists who fill in their spare time taking pot shots at RSPCA officers. If it's so awful, why have you been 30 times? Why do you want it to continue? You don't seem to have a good word to say about it.

Then ask yourself which activity would require the least adjustment to bring it within public acceptance: Appleby or horse racing.

Horse racing IS within public acceptance despite the far higher rate of horse fatalities. Ask yourself why Appleby is not. Could it be something to do with the people involved?

All I want is for the Fair to continue - minus the abuse. Is that too much to ask?

Then come up with some positive suggestions instead of giving the opponents more ammunition.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:28 AM

"To make that analogy comparable you have to hold the shoplifter's entire community collectively responsible, dragging up every misdemeanour any of them have ever committed, and threaten their whole way of life while dismissing the big business corruption as normal practice."

"Horse racing IS within public acceptance despite the far higher rate of horse fatalities. Ask yourself why Appleby is not. Could it be something to do with the people involved?"


These are precisely my points, made far more succinctly and clearly than I have been able. Cheers, Snail.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:11 AM

When all else fails - shoot the messenger, eh?

We all know what your agenda is, TheSnail, and it's got nothing to do with Appleby.

If I was able to uncover the various abuses which you have listed above - all from the public domain, mark you - then so can those who would seek to ban it. If you can't see that then you're a bigger jerk than I thought.

YOU, with your denial of the truth, are a bigger threat to Appleby than I could ever be.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM

Well, I did say I expected personal abuse.

We all know what your agenda is, TheSnail, and it's got nothing to do with Appleby.

I have made my agenda perfectly clear, which is to oppose racism and right wing attitudes finding their way into the folk scene and, yes, that is more important to me than Appleby.

I am still baffled by your position. You do everything you can to blacken the fair's name and claim that you are doing it for its own good.

YOU, with your denial of the truth, are a bigger threat to Appleby than I could ever be.

What truth am I denying? In what way do I threaten Appleby?

I repeat, come up with some positive suggestions. So far, you've come up with a very good case for banning it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM

The PA If you'd like to stop attacking ME for things I haven't said and answer the points I made in my "hysterical rant", we might get somewhere. Otherwise, as I said, rational debate is obviously pointless.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

The Snail:

My sincere apologies for the bad timing of postings. My posting was not directed at you at all. My posting was in reply to Ruth Archer, and never intended as an attack on your goodself.

The second pony was found dumped in a field. When the police tried to trace the 'owners' they had disappeared. Wherever this creature had been in the meantime it had not been an enjoyable experience, the poor thing, a shetland pony, was terrified. It took years to get its trust. We've 'fostered' it for 10 years. I never intimated once that all our rescues were anything to do with travellers, only the one which we were sure of.

My point is made in my last post. There seems to be a rule for one and not for another, and the people who appear to be playing by the rules (regardless of whether those rules are effective or not) are the one's who are being attacked for crualty. Again, read my previous posts and you will see I have never defended abuse of horses no matter how or where it occurs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM

TheSnail

I have made my agenda perfectly clear, which is to oppose racism and right wing attitudes finding their way into the folk scene and, yes, that is more important to me than Appleby.

My hero!

Unfortunately you are so obsessed with your own agenda that you are quite incapable of rational debate. All you succeed in doing is to harm the very 'folk scene' you seek to protect with your cowardly insinuations. Indeed, if I really were a right-winger and wanted to cause trouble, I'd probably employ tactics very similar to your own.

If all you can do is accuse me of telling the truth then what does that say about you?

I don't give a flying bab if you are baffled by my position. You're so busy looking for ulterior motives that you just can't accept it at face value. However, here it is again, for the last time (and I'm typing really slooowly, just for you):

All I want is for the Fair to continue - minus the abuse.

Got it now?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:00 PM

Grimmy

I've witnessed horses being kicked, punched, head-butted, whipped, beaten with sticks, run into the ground.

Indeed, the reason I no longer attend is because of the mindless cruelty inflicted on those poor beasts YEAR AFTER YEAR.

I can also tell you that you won't get many eye-witness accounts from the local residents (many of whom are my relatives) because they stay in their homes with all the windows and doors locked during the fair week.

That's the 'reality' of Appleby Horse Fair.

Although, confusingly, later -

I also did not intend to create the impression that there is unremitting animal cruelty

Well. No. Obviusly not.

Besides, the travellers are very adept (having been doing it since 1685) at conducting their activities out of sight of the authorities.

Not just the younger generation today, then?

Where are the dog fighting images? The sheep stealing pics? The drunken fighting photos? The cottages with ivy around the door and human excrement on the lawn?

Where indeed? You said all your evidence was in the public domain.

All I want is for the Fair to continue - minus the abuse.

Got it now?

Well, getting there slowly but you'll have to bear with me. I still find your method a little puzzling and you haven't explained why you want the fair to continue. You don't seem to have a good word to say about it.

Let me know how your campaign goes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:25 PM

The PA

My sincere apologies for the bad timing of postings.

These things happen. Maybe Grimmy is right and I'm too paranoid.

My point is made in my last post. There seems to be a rule for one and not for another, and the people who appear to be playing by the rules (regardless of whether those rules are effective or not) are the one's who are being attacked for crualty.

Of course all who are guilty of cruelty should be criticised and, if possible, punished. What should not happen is that an entire community shoud be condemned for the bad behaviour of a few. As you said yourself "Don't tar everyone with the same brush". It's true that the horse fairs are largely outside the law but you are not going to solve that by continuing hostility to the traveller community.

Despite their lack of regulation, on the available information, they have a far better record for horse deaths than the National Hunt or eventing for all their rules, vets and caring people. Have you done the maths yet?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:13 AM

The Snail

I take on board and respect your point of view. I agree that an entire community should not be punished for the bad behaviour of a few, this is what seems to be happening - on both sides.

No, I have not done the maths yet - but perhaps, sometimes death can be an escape from an life of intollerable crualty, on either side.

I shall end my postings here, having been able to put my point across to someone did not attack me simply for my chosen lifestyle.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:42 AM

TheSnail, I've had enough of your snide remarks and weasel words. It's time to put up or shut up.

If you're accusing me of racism then say so here and now and produce your evidence, clear and unambiguous.

If you're NOT then say so here and now and stop your pathetic personal vendetta.

If you don't wish to do it on these pages then I can make arrangements for us to do it face to face if you prefer.

Your choice.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:54 AM

Is duelling still allowed??

Grimmy, calm down, it's only a forum.

Snail, make it clear that you don't think that Grimmy is a racist.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 09:03 AM

GUEST,sparticus

Snail, make it clear that you don't think that Grimmy is a racist.

Looking back through Grimmy's post has been a strange and disturbing exercise. What is clearest about him is that he is deeply confused. He seems to contradict himself frequently.

A while ago I said -

Chastising an entire community for the behaviour of one individual is racism.

a statement I'm happy to stand by.

Grimmy

It may be true, LTS, that you've "never known ANY people (other than upper class little white girls and their ponies) who have more respect for their horses than the Travelling people and their families.", but please believe me when I tell you that not at Appleby Fair they don't.
I've witnessed horses being kicked, punched, head-butted, whipped, beaten with sticks, run into the ground.
Indeed, the reason I no longer attend is because of the mindless cruelty inflicted on those poor beasts YEAR AFTER YEAR.
I can also tell you that you won't get many eye-witness accounts from the local residents (many of whom are my relatives) because they stay in their homes with all the windows and doors locked during the fair week.
That's the 'reality' of Appleby Horse Fair.

When someone challenged this, he replied -

Besides, the travellers are very adept (having been doing it since 1685) at conducting their activities out of sight of the authorities. There is an 'official' fair for the benefit of the visitors and an 'unofficial' one for the serious dealing - and that's the one very few people get to see.

In other words, travellers have been behaving like that for 320 years.

Where are the dog fighting images? The sheep stealing pics? The drunken fighting photos? The cottages with ivy around the door and human excrement on the lawn?

Somebody challenged this and he replied -

I am quite sure that outsiders are more than capable of sheep stealing, I will leave it to others to decide who are the most likely culprits.

Nicely ambiguous but it sounds to me as if he thinks it's the travellers.

If anyone really really wants cast-iron proof of horse cruelty (including deaths) at Appleby over a long period of time, then I will obtain it.
.............
But, for those in denial, I promise you, I promise you that I will produce evidence that horses have been killed at Appleby Horse Fair year after year after year.

To put it another way, I've made up my mind and now I'm going to look for the evidence.

Here is some of his cast-iron proof -

On Tuesday (June 6) a horse, which was being ridden by a traveller, was killed after it ran out in front of a Land Rover Discovery driven by a 19-year-old woman from Ingleton at Devil's Bridge, near Kirkby Lonsdale.
What's he saying? That the traveller did it deliberately?

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/viewarticle.aspx?id=510970
Half remembered incident in a letter to the paper. It won't stand up in court.

And, of course, there's the crowbar incident to which Grimmy seems to have been the only witness.

As far as I can see, he has only produced hard evidence for one other death. He said himself that road accidents don't count.

One of the most worrying things is the use of this link -
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.951592.0.appleby_horse_fair_arrest.php

What is he trying to prove there? This is black propoganda at its most vile.

His claim that he is only drawing attention to this "evidence" to warn people that the opponents of the fair might use it to force its closure is laughable and only appeared some way into his posts.

So, yes, I find some of Grimmy's statements and his general attitude rascist.

OK, Grimmy, I'll meet you - at Appleby Horse Fair next year on condition that you stand up in front of a gathering of travellers and say everything you've said on this thread. You can explain to them why it's all for their own good.

By the way, you don't have to be a hero to take a stand against racism. Anyone can do it if they have a modicum of respect for their fellow human beings.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

Very well.

We'll meet a lot sooner than that Bryan.

You'll know who I am - my face is scarred through run-ins with the BNP. We can discuss our respective methods of combatting racism, since you're obviously an expert. We'll discuss other things too.

Is it raining in Eastbourne?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:27 AM

You have, as they say, the advantage of me sir. (Not that I've ever made any secret of who I am.) Would you care to introduce yourself?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 02:53 PM

This is starting to sound like a Bronte novel. Handbags at twenty paces isn't the solution to your problem chaps. Settle this in the time honoured tradition of one to one Morris dancing where the first one to flag concedes victory and buys his opponent a pint. This virtual combat isn't worth the aggravation it's giving you both.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:00 PM

Grimmy seems to be hinting at something more than virtual combat "I know where you live!" His attitude doesn't convince me of his liberal credentials.

Does anybody know this chap? How should I prepare for his visit, get a pepper spray or buy in some more biscuits?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: concertina ceol
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 04:21 PM

I have no emotional or political investment in this thread. I was in at post five but have not read this post since.

I don't support animal cruelty, but I don't campaign against it. Accepted behaviour is not always rational. Hunting with hounds is banned (which I think is a good thing), Fishing is not banned and no campaign of any profile to outlaw it - well that's just weird.

However, violence against the person is against the law, and the threat of violence is unacceptable in a civilised society.

Maybe I'm a (youngish) hippy, but to Grimmy and the Snail.....
....chill out, have a beer (or cup of tea if you are teetotal) and relax....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM

concertina ceol

but to Grimmy and the Snail.....
....chill out, have a beer

Rest assured, I have no violent intentions. I'm not built for it apart from anything else; you've seen me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:59 AM

Just checking on Grimmy and the Snail. Hope you're both alright?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:08 AM

I'm fine, thanks sparticus. I'm a bit worried about Grimmy. He hasn't posted and he hasn't turned up on my doorstep. Let's hope he has taken some time to pause and reflect on what he really thinks.