BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:17 PM

Lizzie, it is at this point that sadly our views diverge.

NF = Football fan ... is a significant fallacy.

The NF infiltrated football and gave it a bad name just as it infiltrated the original skinhead movement and gave it a bad name.

Original skinheads?

Yes - they were into ska and two tone and definitely not into neo nazi politics, being pioneers of black white integration in English culture.

Whats so good about football?

When the industrial revolution happened, people were forced into cities and had to leave their rural culture behind.

They needed to reinvent their identity as their old cultural norms were incompatible with their new environment.

Football in England is the working mans game.

Up north he loves his rugby league, and in wales he likes a bit of rugby union, but football is the dominant working class sport in Britain - and funnily enough the rest of the world.

Why can't they behave like rugby fans?

Most football supporters behave perfectly respectably if a bit noisily. They wear their class literally on their sleeve in the form of a West Ham shirt or an England shirt. They take pride in their urban working class identity and no amount of moralizing can dent that.

Why doesn't yobbishness in football happen elsewhere in the world?

Actually it does, often with more violence than has been the case in England for a long time - korea - brazil - argentina - turkey - holland - germany - italy - spain ...

Rugby Union in England is traditionally a rural and middle/upper class pastime.

Of course these divides are becoming slightly more superficial nowadays, but in terms of peoples identities, English culture should not make the mistake of eschewing football from its rightful place at its heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:53 PM

Nope, it's the modern day football fans, lox, that get to me. Corporate Football has taken over and it controls the fans, and the game, in a very different way these days, or so it seems to me.I've got nothing against football, but heck, at Waterloo Station the other day, you could hear the chant, rumbling in the distance.."Inger..land!...Inger..land!" and round the corner they all tumbled. They climbed into the the train and for near on three hours most of us were put through a journey we weren't expecting. Even the guard gave up, and let them pretty much take over the train, where they downed the lager, happily given to them by the steward who was up and down the train with his trolley, doling out alcohol wherever it was wanted.

I lost it at one point, somewhere between the conversations about which porno films they'd watched and what they liked best in them and who they'd er...been with (that's the polite term, their one started with f) the night before,...and that's when I went KERBOING and turned into The Mother From Hell, packing them off to their 'virtual bedrooms' where they all had to lower their voices and consider others.

I used to work in London, and I'd often travel home with football fans going to Wembley Stadium, the train was packed with them, and they were, in the main, just happy lads, a bit of singing, a few scarves here and there, knitted by Mum or girlfriends. There were no problems that I can remember, at all. But now, they're like an army of arrogant aggressors who think they rule the roost.

Keep the football, by all means, it's part of England, yes, but get the fans to behave in a more thoughtful way. Older people, especially the very elderly shouldn't have to sit their cowering, or being too frightened to speak, because some people, old enough to know better, are not giving a tinker's cuss about their feelings. Good manners used to be very much a part of English culture, not any more it ain't...and I think that's a sad loss to any society, because when people stop caring about others, about their feelings, things start going wrong. By all means have a great day out at the football, enjoy yourselves, but remember that other people are also out enjoying themselves too. How come American Football is so family orientated, yet English football has become so loutish these past 10/15 years or so? I guess because our society in general has become that way, perhaps. And, I think we desperately need to get rid of our 'class system' and just view ourselves as people.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:13 PM

My heritage is Scots/English with a wee bit of Irish/Dutch/Native American....and I am happy to claim all of them. I feel most 'aware' of the Scots/English linage, and tend to favor music and images etc. from those areas. I go to the Scottish games at various times, and enjoy meeting those who are even MORE involved in celebrating that culture and heritage......but, when I leave there, I am American, with very little 'overlay'.

Multi-culturalism is both a wonderful thing and a problem: wonderful because the virtues of having different viewpoints, knowledge and historical perspective can help any country cope with the complexities of easy travel, the internet/WWW and world commerce. But.... a problem because some folks either cannot or WILL not truly assimilate into a new culture, and expect, somehow, their adopted country/culture to adapt to them. When you have several...or many...different cultures all trying to retain the trappings, language and behavioral norms of their different backgrounds in the same urban area, conflicts are inevitable.

It is one thing to be proud of your heritage and to *preserve* its customs, foods, language, dress....etc. for special occasions...as in the Scottish games; but it is quite another make one's major 'hobby' being Irish, Russian, Latino, Black, Japanese...whatever.
   If I were to emigrate to Japan, Australia, Poland...whatever, I would expect to 1)learn the language as best as I could, 2)learn and adopt acceptable public behavior (as in 'personal space', when to bargain over price, operating a motor vehicle, how loud to talk in a restaurant...and so on. This is NOT always clear & easy, but a little effort can avoid the more serious conflicts.

If you think I am overstating this issue, you may live in an area where it really IS a minor thing...but I assure you that in major cities, it is often quite ...ummm...major. In the Washington D.C. metropolitan area, we get the best & the worst of 'multi-culturalism'. I assume there are similar issues in London, Sydney, Hong Kong, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago, Los Angeles, ...and many more.

   It is obviously a delicate matter to discuss the fine line between embracing and welcoming a variety of 'others' to enhance one's society and knowing when and HOW to ask 'others' to please try to adapt to the customs and language they are visiting or emigrating to.
These days, it seems to me, political correctness has made it awkward to even debate the problem...and the news every day..(at least around here)..is full of stories which have elements of this situation embedded in them...though usually not explicitly stated.

I don't know all the answers...I only know that it SHOULD be addressed.

I am proud of and interested in my cultural heritage...and you should feel the same about yours...but we MUST have some common ground for their comfortable co-existence.


I will now retreat to a corner and see if there is any opinion on my concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:19 PM

I fear that one ingredient of football which rose tinted specs might gloss over, but that has always been there, is the culture of 2 fingers up to the toffs.

In the first world war all the toffs became officers and got sent to their deaths.

So now the middle classes, and their (our) morality are the toffs, and in the mind of a footballer, footie day is their day to rule the roost.

Thongs are if anything improving from the days of organized football firms in the seventies that existed with the sole intention of bashing each other to the point of death and in some cases beyond that point.

Try and cut it out and it will become entrenched and resist you.

Don't get me wrong, when I see people that I would otherwise call my friends singing "no surrender to the IRA", I know they don't know what it means, and they know that they don't really unsderstand it too, but for the duration of the match, they don't want to know - they are celebrating their ignorance - wearing their class on their sleeve (even if they aren't of that class - and often the foootie is an excuse for the middle classes to act like idiots)

Girls go to the footie too, as do people of ethnic minorities.

In the latter case, this is often because, in the words of one famous black west ham supporter, the colour of his skin wasn't the issue - when he was with the firm he was "claret and blue".

I am not excusing or promoting bad behaviour, but I do think it is important to understand what it is and accept it rather than to demonize it, and also to recognize its progress and compare it to its darkest period in the seventies.

It has a lot to answer for, Lad and Ladette culture etc, but it represents a sector of society that was disenfranchised making its voice heard and its presence felt.

For the record, I don't have a team and I hate getting caught up amongst a crowd of footie fans on the rampage when they've had a few too many, especially when I have my daughter with me.

But I'm not going to be judgemental either.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:47 PM

Hey Bill,

The answer to one part of your post is that in HK most expats are out there on short contracts. Hence, unless you want your kids to go to boarding school, you need to get them schooled somewhere that they speak the language and that their education can be a continuation of what they were doing at home.

Hence you find the French school, full of french speaking kids preparing for the Baccaleureat, German Swiss kids at the GSIS doing German and swiss exams, English kids at the ESF schools doing A-levels, and American kids doing SAT's at the American international school.

To name but a few ...

Being Irish, I ended up in the english system along with 37 other nationalities.

We all spoke English.

Very few ever learned cantonese - even the ones who spent most of their formative years there.

wierd but practical.

I have spent long hours searching my soul to reconcile the fact that I grew up on the coast of China, yet my second language after english is french.

But expat culture was transient and friends came and went and that is why it was the way it was.

As if things weren't complicated enough already.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:48 PM

"It is obviously a delicate matter to discuss the fine line between embracing and welcoming a variety of 'others' to enhance one's society and knowing when and HOW to ask 'others' to please try to adapt to the customs and language they are visiting or emigrating to."

That sounds scary. Why should anyone need to "adapt" to customs and language??

One of the beautiful things about the US is that we do not have an official language and no one needs to "adapt" to anything other than the laws.   Sure, it can be frustrating when you run into a clerk that does not speak English, but so what?   If you stop to think, you probably learn something from such interactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:44 PM

So what? Well, the other week, I had a problem with the 'self-check' grocery line, and the person tasked with 'helping' people at those counters tried to explain what she thought I had done wrong. I was totally unable to understand her explanation (she 'seemed' to be Indian or Pakistani - I'm not sure...the key phrase was something about "kay de cah oop". She pushed some buttons and got my groceries charged. I'm sure she knew what she was doing...but...
Now, it is MY opinion the the store should not have put someone with limited knowlege of English in such a position...but I do wonder if SHE cared whether she was approximating syllables that 'worked'...I just don't know.

You say, Ron..."we do not have an official language and no one needs to "adapt" to anything other than the laws. "....
That seems to me to miss the entire point... it may not be 'required' to adapt to basic English, but it does hinder communication and create real frustration...and often has serious consequences when the situation IS crucial...like incidents recently when police and suspects in a confrontation were unable to make make themselves mutually understood, resulting in injuries. It is difficult TO "adapt to the laws" if you and the enforcers cannot communicate!


"If you stop to think, you probably learn something from such interactions."...well, sometimes it works, but MANY times it leads to frustration and counter-productive actions. I now avoid the self-check lines which they want to promote, and go thru regular lines where checkers do all the work, whether they speak to me at all.

I could easily cite 14 more examples of such situations.... and a few where persons of foreign heritage HAD managed to learn, adapt and speak the lingua franca. There IS a 'standard' language, whether it is 'official' or not it is the language spoken on the major TV networks to deliver the news.....this is the case in most countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:34 AM

You are the one missing the entire point Bill, not me.   Of course there is a predominant language but the day anyone tries to make it offical is the day you might as well use the Constitution to wipe your ass.

I'm not sure where you live, but if you would like to visit NJ I can take you to towns where there are signs in Korean and the language spoken is the same. There are also wonderful neighborhoods where Spanish is the dominant language and stores, advertisements, radios, etc. will cater to this.    Most law enforcement officials are trained to deal with this. Does it make it more difficult, sure does - but that is the cost of our freedoms.

Your story about your grocery store experience describes your frustration at the store not having someone that spoke English that could help you.   Yet you also said that this woman DID help you and got your groceries charged - yet you still question whether she "cared"???????    Perhaps you were the one that needed a lesson???

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: open mike
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:25 AM

i do feel a kinship with my scandinavian ancestors and like to explore the history and culture that my relatives lived in before coming across the pond. I enjoy learning the folk music and wearing the folk costume from the historic home land of my people. I have hosted visitors from there and have shared the hospitality of people there.
It is an international exchange that leads to understanding with the hope that there could be more international friendships on a personal and national level. In europe and other places it is common for people to be fluent in several languages. this does not seem to be as common in U.S.(MOSTLY DUE TO SPACE...IN OTHER AREAS YOU CAN TRAVEL TO A PLACE AS FAR AWAY AS A U.S. STATE AND BE IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY WITH A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, CURRENCY AND TRADITIONS)

i once heard a Canadian say that in america there is a "melting pot" and in canada it is more like a jello salad with bits held together in a matrix of gelatin.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:34 AM

The Few - Billy Bragg

At night the Baby Brotherhood and the Inter City Crew
Fill their pockets up with calling cards
And paint their faces red white and blue
Then they go out seeking different coloured faces
And anyone else that they can scare
And they salute the foes their fathers fought
By raising their right hands in the air
Oh look how my country's patriots are hunting down below

What do they know of England who only England know

From the stands of the Empire Stadium
Come the heralds of the New Dark Age
With the simplicities of bigotry
And to whom all the world's a stage
These little John Bullshits know that the press
Will glorify their feats
So that the general public fear them
And the authorities say give 'em all seats
And the wasted seed of the bulldog breed
Is shouting "Here we go..."

What do they know of England who only england know

Our neighbours shake their heads
And take their valuables inside
While my countrymen piss in their fountains
To express our national pride
And to prove to the world that England
Is just as rotten as she looks
They repeat the lies that caught their eyes
At school in history books
But the wars they think they're fighting
Were all over long ago

What do they know of England who only England know

And the society that spawned them
Just cries out "Who's to blame?"
And then wraps itself in the Union Jack
And just carries on the same
Oh look out, my country's patriots are hunting down below

What do they know of England who only England know



That song was released in 1991. The situation with hooilganism was far, far worse in the 70s and 80s than it is now. In fact, it was probably one of the things which led to corporate intervention, as the all-seater stadiums which commanded higher ticket prices were suddenly attractive to the corporate big-hitters. When I first came to England a dad could still afford to take his kids down the footy on a Saturday - it coast about £8 for an adult to get in, and it was all about the cameraderie on the terraces - I used to love going down the Villa on a Saturday and standing in the Holt End. But when the seated stadiums came in, suddenly the demographic changed because working class people couldn't easily afford to go every week; do you remember the Fast Show sketch with the middle class footie fan, getting out his hamper and champers?

With the advent of Sky, football became much more about sitting in your living room or in the local pub and watching the match. I thought this was really sad - in America, when I was growing up, my family were passionate football fans - but we hardly ever went to a live game. There's much more of a culture of watching on TV. I loved it that English football was about the live experience - so much more thrilling...and of course, there's the singing! But I think that's changed substantially now.

But from what all of my footie-fan friends have told me about the situation in the 70s and 80s, with the "crews" and the racist violence and the skinheads, you simply can't compare the general pissed-up unruliness you get now with the very real atmosphere of violence there was then.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:39 AM

I should add, as a clarification: the hooligan element has only ever represented a very small number of football supporters, and, as with so many things, it is unfortunate that the majority have been tarred with the same brush. Billy Bragg has also repeatedly made this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM

Next to Seamus Ennis singing Football Crazy, this is my favourite piece of English footballing cultural commentary:

The Fall - Kicker Conspiracy

Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy
J. Hill's satanic reign [1]
Ass-lickers King O'Team
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 2

In the marble halls of the charm school
How flair is punished
Under Marble Millichip, the F.A. broods [2]
On how flair can be punished
Their guest is a Euro-State magnate
Corporate-ulent
How flair is punished

Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 4

In the Blues Club, George Best does rule [3]
How flair is punished.
His downfall was a blonde girl, but that's none of your business!
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 4

Former fan at the bus stop.
Treads on the ball at his feet, in the christmas rush.
And in his hands, two lager cans.
Talks to himself. At the back. At the top.

What are the implications of the club unit?
Plastic, Slime, Partitions, Cocktail, Zig-Zag, Tudor Bar.

Pat McGatt. Pat McGatt, the very famous sports reporter is
talking......there.

FANS! ! ! "Remember, you are abroad!
Remember the police are rough!
Remember the unemployed!
Remember my expense account!

HOT DOGS AND SEAT FOR MR. HOGG !!
HOT DOGS AND SEAT FOR MR. HOGG!!!
AAAAAANNNNDDD HIS GROTTYSPAWN! ! ! !

Lurid brochures for ground unit.
Our style is punished.

Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 5
Remember! don't collect with the rough.
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy

Kicker, lets swell the facilities.

Kicker Conspiracy x 8

Notes:
[1] Jimmy Hill - BBC TV presenter on Match Of The Day
[2] Sir Bert Millichip - Chairman of the British Football Association 1981-1996
[3] The Blues Club was the Manchester City supporters club bar at Maine Road. George Best - 60's soccer icon - played for Manchester United, City's arch rivals, but he was still revered for his style and brilliance. Mark E Smith has said on UK TV that even though he's a City fan he often went with mates to watch United just so he could see Best play.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:26 AM

Cultural identity is very important to me.

I am an African American whose mother was born in this country, but whose parents & siblings were born in the Caribbean. My father was adopted as a toddler and was raised in Michigan. Consequently, I have no Southern United States roots that I know of. I was raised in a working class African American family in the resort city of Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s to the mid 1960s. Unlike this present time, there were very few if any Latinos in that city, and only a small number of Asians. During the 1950s and 1960s when I lived in the city, the racial population was about two thirds White and about one third Black. However, residential neighborhoods were largely segregated by race, and economic class within racial groups. Because public schools up to junior high school {age 11 or so] were based on neighborhood, these schools were also racially segregated. There was only two public junior high schools in the city, and only one public high school. Because a number of White students attended a Catholic junoir & senior high school, or private junior or senior high school, the racial mix at the public junior and sentior high schools was about 50% Black and 50% White. I recall only two Asian students, and one person with a Spanish surname in my large high school graduting class of 900 students.

When I was growing up in Atlantic City, all of the social institutions for children such as YMCAs, YWCAs, and all the social groups that I was aware of such as Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts were segregated by race. The churches were also segregated. But the public library was integrated.

There is no doubt in my mind that the majority culture's negative valuation of Black people as a group and negative valuation of Black people as individuals greatly impacted the way that I viewed myself and my group. As a child, and as a young teen, I had an inferiority complex. I believed that historically and in that present time my racial group had made no significant accomplishments, and that White people as a group had accomplished more than any other group of people. It's not surprising that I believed this, since the educational curriculum and the mass media directly and indirectly taught that.

However, during my childhood and teen years there were mitigating factors that helped me develop and helped reinforce positive feelings of self-esteem. Little things can also make a difference about how a person in an "out group" thinks about her or himself. I am a twin. As a young child, I can remember my mother taking my sister and me to a "Mother of Twins" meeting. My recollection was that we were the only Black people at that meeting, and I don't recall us going back a second time. Yet, I credit that meeting with inculcating in me the sense that being a twin was something positive. Twins are special. I am a twin. So therefore I am special.

Also, my grandfather was the head deacon in our church, and the president of a prominent Black religious organization in our county. As part of his responsibilities, my grandfather did a great deal of public speaking throughout our city and county. He would often take me and some other grandchildren with him to these events, and introduce us to those in attendance. Though I wasn't conscious of it at those times, the positive attention that my grandfather received, helped me to think more positively about myself.

As I mentioned previously, my junior high school, and high school were racially integrated. One of the pluses for me of this integrated learning experience was that I realized that academically I did better than many of my White classmates. This direct experience helped to raise my self-esteem and helped me refute the myth of White superiority. Yet, it wasn't until my college and young adult years that the myth of White group superiority was dismantled. Learning about African traditional cultures and the folk cultures of other people of color was an important part of that journey.

I credit my work as an adult in adoption, and particularly in transracial adoption {the adoption of a child of one race by an adult or adults of another race} for reinforcing the principle that I have that people are people are people but that, especially in a society that is hostile to one's group, positive group esteem is very important to the development of a healthy, positive sense of self.

I'm glad that I found Mudcat. Among other things, this forum provides opportunities for me to "meet" individuals whose lifestyles may be very different than mine, but whose values, interests, and concerns are often quite similar. Most of the time, Mudcat gives me hope that at some point-though maybe not in my lifetime- racial identity will be nothing more than a descriptor, and racial identity will have neither positive nor negative valuation.

I hope and I work for such a time as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:31 AM

As a supplement to my personal comments, those who are interested my want to read this online research article about racial identity in Black youth:

http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:TmfJILoWO5QJ:sitemaker.umich.edu/daphna.oyserman/files/doyserman.pdf+african+american+ident

Here are some excerpts of that article:

"For African American youth, answers to the 'who am I?' question are likely to include both distinctive, unique features of the self one will become and also representations of oneself as a black person in America. That is, the self-concept is likely to contain both personal identity and also racial identity - a sense of what it means to be both American and of African heritage. In this way, racial identity deals with the dual membership of African Americans -- membership in a group with traditions, culture and heritage that is interdependent or collectivistic in focus and also as a membership in a post-industrial, individualistically oriented society that has negative stereotypes about one's racial group...

Research on African American or black identity has focused... primarily on [a] sense of connectedness or common fate, a positive sense of heritage and history, and [an] awareness of racism and negative stereotyping as identity components...

In our work, we focus on the 'insiders view', asking what is the experience of being African American for black youths. Our premise is that in urban centers black youths cannot choose to ignore or not take into account this social identity...

Positive in-group attitudes and identification are correlated with higher self-esteem, less stress andless delinquent involvement (McCreary, Slavin, & Berry, 1996; Beale-Spencer, Cunningham, &Swanson, 1995). Bat-Chava & Steen's (1996) recent meta-analysis of doctoral and master theses studies suggests a moderate connection between various measures of ethnic identity and self-esteem. Further, it seems plausible that racial identity will be linked with reduced risk of depression first because feeling connected to one's community provides a positive sense of one'sroots and a sense of belonging, reducing sense of isolation and aloneness. And secondly, being aware of racism provides a non-self-denigrating explanation for setbacks and failures, reducing excessive self-blame (Crocker & Major, 1989). Defining oneself in terms of both of these components of racial identity is likely to provide a sense of rootedness (I know where I came from and who I belong to) and an understanding of possible negative responses from others or difficulties (Some people may expect less of me because I am black). Reading the literature, it becomes clear that ethnic and racial identity are typically measured by some mix of items focused on the importance and centrality of ethnic or racial group membership to one's sense of self, one's everyday behaviors or everyday life. In addition, sense of common fate and positive connection to the traditions and heritage are commonly assessed."...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

Lovely. I can't imagine anything stating more clearly that cultural heritage is important. Thanks, Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:01 AM

I think the takeaway is that cultural heritage is important to provide a sense ones self, but also to fit into the patchwork quilt that makes up our communities. The tragedy of segeration and the insane positions of the BNP are not celebrations of heritage but an attempt to wipeout the heritage of our friends and neighbors.   We should be celebrating our diversity and honoring our heritage - it makes us who we are, and at the same time take pride in the fact that we are part of a larger union.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

While this will probably leave me hanging on a meathook somewhere, I would offer the thought that the obsession with commercially organized sports events which characterizes both the American idiot-fan and the British hooligan-fan and the Argentinian soccer-bozo is no more a significant part of one's culture than cigarette brands or Saturday cartoons, in any real, organic sense.

Rather, they are a debased, hollow substitute for the actual ideas and values and communications that make up the real living strength of a culture. It is not that physical excellence is not part of human cultures, but modern _commercial_ fandom as "culture" is like comparing human history with Disney's feature-length cartoon stories.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

" might as well use the Constitution to wipe your ass." ???


*sigh*...Ron Olesko... when you substitute slogans for reason & pragmatic concerns, I don't know how to answer you...I'll try once more, though.

What do "Our freedoms" have to do with putting the right person into the right position in dealing with the public? I will defend anyone's rights as strongly as you will. I have risked my life doing so ....

I said "I don't know" about the woman in the store....I still do not know. I DO know that when I was in 1st year German class in college, there were a couple of guys in my class that simply would NOT make those 'funny sounds' requires to speak German correctly. I can't prove it, but I suspect that they considered it silly..or not worth the effort. Then, a few years ago, my son was taking piano lessons from a woman who was from Russia....she had been here 30 YEARS, and still could barely make herself understood! I know a woman from Spain who married an American 40 years ago, and insisted that HE learn her language, as she did not like to speak English, and doggedly retains her heavy accent.
I could go on.

My real point is that I want the best for people, (as well as wanting comfortable communication for my own 'selfish' interests), and those whose language skills are lacking will at some point find their opportunities limited. This make me sad. I know that they manage..up to a point, but it is simply impossible

"Most law enforcement officials are trained to deal with this"?

Really? Just how do you train someone to "deal" with a distraught person shouting in a foreign language...especially if they seem inclined to violence? Sure we have 'some' Spanish speaking police where I live...but recently none was available when a boy was causing a disturbance at a fast-food restaurant. He was shot. If he had been Korean or Thai or ".....", there would have been NO one to even call.

I just watched a TV show about an emergency room, in which a doctor treated a 2-year old girl, and had to call a translation service to get someone who spoke Persian to explain to her father how to give her medicine! That was nice..but that service only works when you have time and know the numbers! It doesn't work on police patrols...or in supermarket lines.

Ask ANY school district with a large multi-cultural population just how well they are coping with educating kids in 4-8-12 languages...and how much it costs to try...and what this does to their "no child left behind" scores. They will give you (on the record) a politically correct answer about their efforts. If you can get a private, 'off the record', answer, you hear other things. (I know someone who cares a LOT, but is very frustrated.)

I just don't know what else to say...**I** care... I just can't comprehend how we can cope with changing demographics that are outstripping our ability to do it right. I do know that waving the Constitution is hardly the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM

Sigh right back at ya.

Bill, our country is based on freedoms. Read the first ammendment to the Consititution. We do NOT have an official language and we should never attempt to. 82% of our country speaks English, and based on the last census, the number jumps up to 92% of those who can at least understand English - even if it is not their primary language.

Use as much TV examples and rhetoric as you like, but your answer to solving the issue is not the appropriate response. If you try to change our national identity by restricting language - and make no mistake, that is what it does - then you are undermining our freedoms.

Understanding and learning a language are two different aspects.   While you may have a problem with strong accents, the answer is not that everyone needs to speak in your native tongue.   Going back to your example, you were helped by the woman in the supermarket but you seem to ignore that simply because you could not understand her words. She did her job, she helped you.

I understand that you care, but you need to step back and look at what you are asking for.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:00 PM

I'm going to spring in to defend BillD, as we are both proud residents of Montgomery County, Maryland--our county tends to trump most other places that fancy that they are multicultural--more than 25% of our population are foreign born, and somewhere close to a third do not speak english at home. That third speak one of about 170 different languages.

I have heard the manager a local McDonald's give directions to employees in what turned out to be Igbo ( I thought it was Yoruba, but what do I know?), where previously, language spoken had been Spanish.

Just yesterday, I was shopping in Costco, and in the 40 minutes that I was in the store, I didn't hear English spoken until the Russian in front of me in line began insulting the African cashier.

The central shopping district in my little town is hard to navigate if you can't read Spanish, and the street and the shops are full of people til late in the evening, which causes a lot of friction with the long time residents of the area.

Many to most of the people we have to deal with each day aren't native English speakers, and some don't speak English at all(though you may not realize it at first), and, though in a larger sense, it is kind of invigorating, in an immediate way, it can be problematic.

A while back, I took a worn quilt to the Korean dry cleaners. She showed it to one of the Salvadorean seamstresses, then quoted me a price for the repairs, which I paid up front.

When I returned, there was another employee at the register who refused to return the quilt unless I paid a substantial additional amount.

The resulting fracas required the intervention of the consumer rights advocate in the county prosecutor's office who had to get two translators to figure out what was going on.

Briefly, the Salvadoran seamstress had told the Korean cashier that she couldn't do the repair. The cashier had misunderstood and taken the quilt. Then, another seamstress
took the quilt, thought that it needed something else done, gave an estimate for that, and sent it back to the cashier, who mistook the estimate for additional charges. Since communication in the shop was pointing, nodding, and smiling, with the odd "yes" and "no", no one knew what anyone else was doing. They all thought they did, though.

BillD, I am sure, joins me in a delighted appreciation of all the things that our new neighbors bring us, including delicious cuisines, charming customs, and a sort of eager and sincere manner that disappeared from mainstream America a long time ago.

Still, with neither malice nor recrimination, we occassionally wish our new friends had a more secure grasp of our common speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

Whew .... starting to sound like a bunch of cranky old men in this thread .... times they are a changing / evolving ... get used to it ... better still, welcome it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

The core documents of the nation, all its laws, and its primary body of literature are all written in English. Almost of its national media and certainly its major ones are conducted or written in English.

The purpose of the United States is to build a more perfect union, not to erect a Tower of Babel. From this perspective a strong persuasive (not mandatory) emphasis on learning English (or some other common tongue would have served) as part of joining the experiment is a good idea; but no-one should ever be forced to abandon a language or acquire one against their will.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:19 PM

Culture???? in America we hardly have a culture...just trends, fads, and cheap thrills. Wanting to 'preserve' a culture doesn't fit with 'progressives and liberals' mind sets. You are starting to sound like a conservative....(Reminds me of Winston Churchill's famous quote).

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:25 PM

Thank you, M.Ted, for even better examples of what real, everyday problems are like.

"We do NOT have an official language"
yes, I am aware of this

"... and we should never attempt to."
and that is an entirely different question.

If you'll re-read my posts, Ron, perhaps you can tell me where I gave my "answer to solving the issue". I don't believe I did. I wish I HAD 'the' answer.

An official language might help, but it would take a long time to make a dent in the problem. Better control of immigration would help...but that is a whole new level of issues.

What I DO suggest...and what I hinted at above... is that EVERYONE should stop dancing around the problem and admit that there IS, at least in many areas, a real problem...and begin discussing it and comparing ideas beyond quoting the 1st amendment and noting what the current status quo is.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

From Amos:

"While this will probably leave me hanging on a meathook somewhere, I would offer the thought that the obsession with commercially organized sports events which characterizes both the American idiot-fan and the British hooligan-fan and the Argentinian soccer-bozo is no more a significant part of one's culture than cigarette brands or Saturday cartoons, in any real, organic sense.

Rather, they are a debased, hollow substitute for the actual ideas and values and communications that make up the real living strength of a culture. It is not that physical excellence is not part of human cultures, but modern _commercial_ fandom as "culture" is like comparing human history with Disney's feature-length cartoon stories."


yes, Yes, YEs, YES, YESSSSSSS!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: olddude
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

We are all shaped in one way or the other by out heritage and our cultural values

It is wonderful to enjoy songs about our heritage, the food our mom's cooked, the family traditions. Nothing wrong at all with embracing that in a positive light.

the problem only comes about, when we discard other cultures or believe that other cultures are less than ours. Then something positive becomes destructive.

I am always facinated by other cultures and traditions. Getting to know them makes us better people.

Funny story, when my youngest was in college several of her room mates were talking about things they did as a child. My daughter said hey remember when we were kids and use to make a leprechaun trap on St. Patricks day out of cardboard or something to catch a leprechaun... and finding a little green hat or something next to candy!

The other girls just looked at her. She called me up and said, Dad you have GOT to tell me when things were done just in our house as opposed to other people. They laughed hystercally at our "leprechaun trap"

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

People neec a shared language.

It's essential. Without it, you have chaos.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: olddude
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

I taught at the University with a Hindu professor, we became really good friends. On St. Patricks day we would all go to the local pub and have a beer and eat chicken wings. He turned to me one time and said.   "I love christian gods" in India on a holy day we have to fast and pray and stuff like that. Christian gods you get to drink beer and eat chicken wings


Now that is multi culturalism

I laughed and laughed

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

Bill, if you wish to split hairs then fine - you never gave an answer to solving all the problems.   However, I am steadfast in my belief that your suggestion of an offical language for our country is the wrong direction and it stands against everything that we stand for. You can pooh-pooh my quoting of the 1st amendment all you wish, but it doesn't change fact.

If you think that the so-called "problem" of additional languages in our country is new, then you need to recheck your history.

Just a question for M.Ted - did end up paying the additional charges for the quilt?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:42 PM

From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

People neec a shared language.

It's essential. Without it, you have chaos.

Spelling skills are cool too.....

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:49 PM

There is only one common shared language and that is music / art ... and that works.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM

"Spelling skills are cool too..... "

So are stronger contact lenses! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM

Glad you took it light heartedly...I was hoping you'd chuckle!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:14 PM

Amos, I've known football fans for whom their support of their team is like part of their life's blood. They were easily as passionate about it as any of us are about music. I'm not sure how you're defining "commercially organised" or "obsession", but there are still people who support their local teams and who have done so over several generations. My friend, who is a farmer, was taken to Leicester City matches as a kid by his dad, just as his dad was taken by his dad before him. The family has been Leicester City supporters longer than they've been farmers. He now takes his son, and even when times are hard in farming, this is one thing they find the money for. It is a passion he is passing on.

Just because you can't relate to a passion doesn't mean it's any less valid as a means of cultural expression than any other form of cultural activity. Is football commercialised? Yes, of course it is. So is folk. So is anything in our society which can be bought and sold. Do they lose their validity as means of cultural expression because someone has found a way to commodify them? I really hope not, because if that's the case, we haven't got a lot left.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

Ruth Archer, You'll have to excuse Amos, and a lot of other Americans who confuse culture with commercialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

"If you think that the so-called "problem" of additional languages in our country is new, then you need to recheck your history."

I did.... when the country was new, we had only a few languages, and not NEARLY so much interaction. Folks with common cultures could have almost independent communities..(and a few still do)..but now, in urban areas, they are going to the same dry cleaners and disputing over repairs.

**Changes in demographics need changes in attitudes and behavior.**


" ...I am steadfast in my belief that your suggestion of an offical language for our country is the wrong direction" ....again...I didn't formally suggest it. I said it 'might' help.... I AM sure a common language, as Lizzie Cornish notes, would help...if it was voluntary instead of manditory, that's even better. Now...how do we get there?


(In Germany, they have a number of dialects...but everyone is more or less expected to be able to switch to "Die Umgangsprache" (the standard 'formal' language used on the evening TV news) when traveling.) Now, even Germany has many immigrants who are slow to adapt....and Germany is having many problems similar to ours.

Japan is a bit different....they do not appreciate dilution of their culture in many areas, and restrictions are apparent. One can debate how well it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

Bill D and M.Ted,

America is one of the countries of the world that is not bilingual. There is a resistance
to learning another language, here in America as evidenced by the lack of emphasis
in school curricula. If we insist on English being the predominant language, here in the States then I think it is incumbent upon every American to learn a foreign language and
to be adept at more than one if they can. In the inception of this country, the first European immigrants spoke English, German and later Irish, Hebrew (Yiddish), Spanish and now Asian.

Where is it written that English has to be the official language of this country? This is only
because of the tyranny of the first immigrants dictating their linguistic policy to the exclusion of Native Americans. The problem of the lack of language communication skills is directly proportional to the provincial attitudes of many Americans who forget that their ancestors were not the only immigrants here.

If we want to avoid problems in the future, then Americans should become bilingual. It's predicated on the ideals of the inscription below the base of the Lady of the Harbor.

American slang has picked up wonderful expressions from those non-English speaking immigrants of all kinds.

Ron is right. We have to give up our provincial thinking on this issue.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:51 PM

"Where is it written that English has to be the official language of this country? This is only
because of the tyranny of the first immigrants dictating their linguistic policy...."

Not exactly, Frank....sure, we late-comers have indeed been less than courteous to the Native Americans, and of course those who gained 'power' back then worked to make THEIR language/culture the dominant one. Isn't the history of the world like that?

Still, as the world grows 'smaller' and communication between disparate groups is more common, the need for SOME common language(s) becomes more evident. For many reasons,(experts can tell you in detail) English has become one of the 3-4 languages used for most international commerce. (Because it borrowed so heavily from other languages, it became one of the more flexible and powerful ones.)(It is also the one understood, at least minimally, by more OTHER groups).

But all that is only partly relevant to what should happen here....In any country, their culture is expressed partly BY their language, and coping with lots of other languages is a problem...except where intermixing of populations in a smaller area has gone on for generations and folks speak 2-3 languages from childhood.

Here in the US, many, for example in rural areas, don't deal with other cultures at all, and can go most of their lives without needing a 2nd language. I took German...but I have seldom 'needed' it. Yes, knowing more Spanish might now be a real advantage...and I would encourage more folks to learn some Spanish..... but that should not mean that immigrants from the South don't need to learn English!

As a fact of history, English IS the standard language here, and the 2nd language in much of the rest of the world...and as folks strive to preserve and appreciate their heritage (to note the original question), they also need to remember that they have chosen to alter their heritage and that of their children, and responsibilities come with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:56 PM

"I AM sure a common language, as Lizzie Cornish notes, would help...if it was voluntary instead of manditory, that's even better. Now...how do we get there?"

Well, we do have a "common" language - that is English.

Let's cut to the chase. What would be accomplished by having an "Official" language?   By law, would that mean your grocery store would be required to speak English???   I guess our descrimination laws would need to be changed to avoid lawsuits. IF we have an offical language, would we need to have bilinguals signs?   Why would a taxpayer need to help fund signs in any language other than English?   So when someone who does not speak English can't read a street sign and goes the wrong way on a one way street or goes through a stop sign and kills someone, who goes to jail or gets sued? If a ballot cannot be read by someone who does not speak English, then they do not have the right to vote?   Sounds like a great way to fix an election.

Better still, we make efforts to teach English. I'm sure all tax payers would be happy to pay extra to fund programs to teach English to our immigrants who are working jobs that others aren't taking.

Of course we have not addressed regional accents.   I've talked to some people from Maine and some people from Georgia that speak a language unlike any other. Let's train these yokels to speak!! And lets not forget Junior, who fell asleep in English class and cannot construct a sentence - or the handicapped. Would they be considered lawbreakers? What do we do with tourists, send them home unless they can speak English?

Here's the thing - I'm all for encouraging people to learn the dominant language in the country they choose to live.   it would help everyone to be able to communicate clearly.   I will tell you a story. My son loves Burger King chicken tenders. I realize they are not healthy, but he is doing okay and I don't mind getting him a treat. They have a dollar value menu - 4 chicken tenders for $1.   I thought I purchase 4 orders of 4 pieces chicken tenders. That is exactly what I said to the woman who took my order. I get to the window and she hands me a single order.   I tell her again what I want, and she points to the bag and with a thick Spanish accent she says "Four".   I repeat my request, she calls over another woman. They say something. The other woman asks me for the order, which I repeat yet again. She then asks me for $17 as she believes that I asked for 4 of the more expensive chicken sandwiches.   I again repeat my order. Another woman comes over. She then asks me if I want #4 on the menu. I repeat my order again (I've lost count). She then nods her head - hands me the 4 orders of chicken tenders, and takes the proper money.

Sure I was aggravated. In the end, I got my order and we had a laugh. I should also say that I've had my order screwed up by teenagers who are white-anglo saxon and really do not give a crap about getting it right. They are talking to their friends and the customer is a distraction.   The three women I dealt with, while they had limited command of the language, at least tried to satisfy my order.

The bottom line is that Burger King should spend time training individuals to serve their customers. If language barriers will hurt their business, that is an issue they must deal with.    The very idea that the problem should even be considered an issue for our government (and we the people) to decide is absurd.

I'm sorry if you think my bringing up the constitution is a distractions, but I feel it is important to fight for. Our country was built by immigrants, and our current crop of diverse cultures continue to expand on those ideals. It is one thing to encourage communication, it is another to alter our freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM

Very soon people whose mother tongue is Spanish will become the majority in the U.S.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:28 PM

From Bill D:

"As a fact of history, English IS the standard language here, and the 2nd language in much of the rest of the world...and as folks strive to preserve and appreciate their heritage (to note the original question), they also need to remember that they have chosen to alter their heritage and that of their children, and responsibilities come with that."

Exactly.

If I went to live in France, I'd learn French. If I went to live in Spain, I'd learn Spanish, etc...etc..etc. I'd not even hesitate to think about doing it, because no way would I expect French people to talk English to me, likewise with the Spanish. I think it would be arrogant and spoilt brattish of me to assume that *they* should learn *my* language. I'd like them to help me out, yes, and to fall over helpless in laughter as I stumbled through learning the words, but no way would I expect them to learn my language purely because I was too darn lazy, or stubbornly fixed in my attitudes, to learn theirs.

I'd also learn their history, their culture, their way of living, how their society functions, the do's and don't's of it all and their laws.

No-one would have to force me to do this, because this is the new country that I'd chosen of my own accord, the one where I'd want to put down my roots, and so therefore, I'd want to become part of that country, its people, its life, and I'd want that for my children too.

I would never forget my own roots, heritage or culture though, and at home I'd speak in English. I'd miss my own language terribly, but know that I'd be able to converse happily with family and friends. But hard though it would be, I'd know that to get on in my new country I'd need to be able to communicate, be it for a job, or a hospital visit, or down to my local shop, talking to my new neighbours, and I'd work hard to learn, because this would be my new beginning, my new start, and a new life for my children.

The alternative would be sign language for the rest of my days, pointing at things, never understanding, isolation, danger at times, through not being able to communicate in an emergency, and a refusal to join the society I'd come to live amongst. There'd be loneliness, anger, confusion and resentment of the host nation, even though they hadn't caused that resentment at all, because *I* was the one who had refused to change.

And I'd not want to live amongst a whole pile of English people, becaause I'd moved to my new country to become a part of it, not create England on a tiny scale.

I think I'm correct in saying that if I wanted to live in Canada, for instance, then I'd have to speak either French or English, be able to support myself or have someone sponsor me for almost 10 years, in case something went wrong. I'd also have to have many educational skills, with exams to prove that, plus job skills too. It wouldn't matter if I were marrying a Canadian or not, as no special advantages are given for that, the rules are the same.

And I think (although please correct me if I'm wrong) that many of these rules came about because the Canadian Government went to the people, after a huge amount of immigration happened, in a short time, when many nationalities moved to Canada, many unable to support themselves or their families and many unable to even speak English or French and it caused a large amount of problems.

You have to be sensible here. Welcome everyone, but everyone has to be responsible and willing to put some hard work in to make everything work well.

Moving to another country is a two way thing. Firstly, it's YOU deciding to make a huge change in your life and being willing to do all you can to learn about your new country, because it is *yours* now...and it's the host nation being willing to welcome you warmly, with open arms, knowing that you are going to do your damndest to fit in and become a happy part of your new country.

I'd keep my own heritage, pass it to my children, share it with my new neighbours, teach them about it, whilst learning theirs, but I'd also know that from the moment I arrived in my new country, I was now blessed with an extra heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: 3refs
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:41 PM

I scanned quickly and saw no mention of sign(signed)language. Probably opened up a can of worms here, but other than some of the grammer, quite a bit of it is universal. I took American Sign Language in college. I could communicate with people from other countries who didn't speak English or French.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:48 PM

GfS:

Your insult is not only inaccurate, it is completely stupid in light of the point I made earlier.

IF a child is put in front of cartoons every morning and watches nothing else, and the child is an American, does that mean the American culture (which does exist, in spite of the bitter ravings of the not quite Sanity upthread) consists of cartoons? Any population has those in it who ignore the culture, and substitute cheap products and shallow ideas for their daily diet. That doesn't mean their culture is one of shallow ideas; it merely means they have chosen not to acquire the ideas it does have.

Maybe we should use a different term for the life of ideas as culture versus the life of fads as popular culture. "Pop" culture includes Mickey Mouse as an icon, raving about ballgames and debates on the merits of cheap beer brands. Its mythology is divorced from ancient wisdom or paradigms, and uses Loony Tunes and Disney icons and legends from "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" or "Animal House" instead. But I do not include these under the heading of vulture as I understand the original question in this thread. Do you?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:56 PM

"You have to be sensible here. Welcome everyone, but everyone has to be responsible and willing to put some hard work in to make everything work well. "

I think the examples that Bill D gave, M.Ted and myself show that these people are responsible and willing to work hard to make things work - language is not necessarily the first priority or the barometer of their intentions.

I'm reading a lot of generatlizations that are perpetuated by ignorance of the fact. You make an assumption that someone is lazy or unwilling to learn a language, yet you do not know if they have tried, are in the process of learning, or simply afraid to speak.

My daughter dated a young man from Peru.   Around my wife and I, he would only speak in short bursts - yes, no, thank you. One day I overheard him chatting with her, and his English was flawless. His intimidation with adults led him to hide his own speech.   Probably because he has heard the insults and impatience that others have directed toward him - feeling that he was stupid because English is not his first language. A real shame because he is very intelligent and has a lot to offer.

The other issue is - where and how do they learn?   Learn it on the street corner? Schools? Who pays? Would you volunteer to help?

Sure, those 5 minutes at Burger King is time from my life that I will never get back. At the same time, I learned something, and I would rather spend 5 minutes in a civil discussion rather than loose something that I cherish.

"a refusal to join the society I'd come to live amongst" - How many of us feel that we march to the beat of a different drummer? How you choose to live your life is your own choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:10 PM

"Any population has those in it who ignore the culture, and substitute cheap products and shallow ideas for their daily diet."

I get the impression that you are saying this is the category that sporting culture, such as following a footbal team, falls into. If that's the case, I sincerely disagree. Cultural expression comes in many forms, and there are very few absolutes when quantifying the value of different kinds of engagement. The question of who decides which cultural expressions have value and which are the "shallow ideas" is a loaded one, for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:33 PM

Ron, yes, there are many people who speak English as their first language who have difficulty in conversing, let alone those who don't speak it. I understand that. Yes, there are always particular instances where some folk have difficulties, and of course, I wasn't meaning that people who need help should not be given that, of course they should, that comes in the 'being welcomed' part...But imagine how you'd feel if the burger incident happened every single day, over and over and over, because of the modern way of thinking that it's OK *not* to learn the main language of the country you have chosen to live in.

And yes, some people born and bred in a country, who speak the language fluently etc, choose to stay separate from society, that also goes without saying, I can't include every single scenario in what I've said, but rest assured, compassionate help is always included in what I say. I'm generalising in my post above, talking of the vast majority of people who choose to make another country their home. People who *are* able to learn, and *are* able to socialise, but who decide not to.

Heck, invent a new world language for us ALL to learn, but please, let there be some way for the whole world to communicate, because otherwise, we ain't ever going to get to be One People, even though we are Many.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:39 PM

Figures!! I bring up 'culture' and Amos thinks of cartoons!
Sigh-h-h-h.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:41 PM

Fer gawd's sake.

If you don't get yer shorts all tied up in knots up over the language issue maybe you can realize we are all one people .... different in many cultural factors, philosophies, different in language .. but all one in our hearts and in our humanity.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

If you lack the patience, tolerance, humility we can never become "one People" even if we do speak the same language.

Having patience, tolerance, humility, respect you will be amazed how you can communicate with one's who do not speak the same language but these attitudes have to be mutual.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:06 PM

Its not an argument really,

You need both;

1 - to respect other languages and peoples right to speak in them no metter where they live.

2 - to foster a healthy approach to ensuring people can communicate in the culture they live in. For example in the case of a bangladeshi man with a heart problem who might be trying to tell the paramedic that his pills are in his inside pocket but can't and so dies.

Practicality and common sense can sometimes be confused for a lack of respect or racism.