BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

Ok insanebeard, so you've listed some of your cultural influences.

Well done.

And Your experience of England is different from that expressed by some others here.

"My own personal Cultural Heritage is more important to me than any faux-Englishness which has fuck all to do with my life"

Ok - so all your're interested in is your own interests.

And if someone elses interests and experiences differ from yours they risk falling into the category of "faux englishness".

Well that's very sad.

I'm open to new experiences and after living in England for about 7 years I was invited on a trip round England during the summer months.

Having grown up in Hong Kong, my experience of England had until that point been that it was cold and miserable.

But then I discovereed the "quintissential English Summer"

And I am glad I did.

The Church bells rang, and the cricketers wore their whites on the village green.

The assumption you make is that those cricketers had white skin too -something which nobody else here has said anything about - in fact, some of them had brown skin and were as integral to the Idyll as their white playing partners.

My views part ways with lizzies where I perceive her as refusing to accept the reality of class and to accept that there is a definite workig class culture in England which deserves recognition as much as any other sector of society.

You make the mistake of denying the existence of the village green and church bells.

All these things exist and are a part of English heritage.

And thank you Insane Beard, though you may feel the earlier part of your post is so important that it deserves a place (word for word) on two threads simultaneously, I'm afraid that that is more reflective of your ego, as indeed is the idea that if it isn't your experience, or if it has "F*** all to do with you" then it is "faux"

You are not nearly as open minded as you claim to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:33 PM

Here you go, Ron.

'Song for Saint George' written by Gez

It was this time last year when they told us to hide
To hide our St. George Flag away
"Take them down from your windows, they litter our streets
If you don't, they'll be much hell to pay
And we'll fine you if you choose to, so it's best you choose not
It's worse than the Union Jack
For St. George is dead and buried
We suggest you sit down, shut up, and please don't answer back

Just sit down
Just sit down
Just sit down
No, don't stand your ground"

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my street
Find its Bank Holiday with her parties so sweet
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
But I fear Monday morn' we'll regret we were born
In this country of green promised land
And we'll trudge off to work with no pride in our heart
And no love for our own countrymen
Oh the Irish - St. Patrick, The Welsh - David's Day
The Scottish - St. Andrew I'm told
Celebrated by all who arouse one and all
Old St. George has been left in the cold

Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Just stand your ground!

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my town
Find its Bank Holiday with my neighbours around
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
I know is I'm small, yet I try to stand tall
For my country on St. George's Day
Raise a glass to Old England my neighbours and friends
So they know that he's not gone away
I'll run with my flag in the cool winter spring
Through the fields and the streets of this land
You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England
You can take old St. George from my windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:38 PM

Ron, when I said "You knock down claims no one is making!", I thought it was clear that I meant no one in THIS discussion. If you include everyone who says things you disagree with, and 'insinuate' that it is also my position, I can't keep up.



"Bill, you only made ONE suggestion that I saw - an official language."


to reply AGAIN, and add to what M.Ted said...*I* did not **ADVOCATE** an official language. I said 'it might help'. I have no campaign, no formal proposition.....I have not decided whether I would support any such proposal, and would not until I saw the details. I even said back at 2:19PM yesterday ". I AM sure a common language, as Lizzie Cornish notes, would help...if it was voluntary instead of manditory, that's even better."

That's at least 3 times I have made clear my position.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

lox, I recognise there was a class system in this country, absolutely, but I also recognise that it needs to be laid to rest now, because until we just see ourselves as people, the class system will do no more than cause anger, resentment and pain.

My ex-mother-in-law, who still lives with me, is now 94 years old, and she sees herself as 'working class' above all else. She's voted Labour all her life, because 'that's what my class does' and if you take her into any of the big houses of England, she'd just snort and say "what does the likes of me want, with the likes of 'them', some fancy lord and lady!"

I don't have that feeling. I don't see people as better than me, or higher than me, or more important than me. I don't see people that I'm better than, or judge them purely because of what 'class' box I decide to put them in, they're just people, we're all just people.

The English have never been allowed to forget their 'class' and it's caused hatred, much bitterness and resentment for way too long. That's what I dislike so much about it all. It's its own form of 'racism' isn't it? "My class is better/worse than your class" rather than "my skin colour is better/worse than your skin colour'

English 'class'



Do the Americans, Canadians or Australians see themselves as different 'classes'?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

It is clear to me that one part of our mutual cultural heritage is a highly developed ritual of intermiscommunication!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:47 PM

Bill - this is a general discussion, it is not a one-way conversation between you and I. I am not just writing comments in response to you.   If you need clarification, let's do it offline instead of sidetracking the conversation.   I did not insinuate YOUR position but commented on items that you and others said. I know you did not advocate a position, but I commented on your suggestion. Pretty clear as far as I can see, but I apologize it folks like yourself do not see it.

I understand that conversations like this are sometime hard to keep up with, but let's not spoil a good conversation.   I respect your opinion and thoughts, even if I do not agree with your statements. Let's not turn this personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

Lizzie - Not knowing the particulars, it sounds similar to our flap with the Confederate flag. Because certain groups tend to wrap their politics around a flag or a symbol, the meaning changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:12 PM

Lox - you miss the point. Society is made up of individuals each of whom have their unique cultural experience. No one is pushing this subjective cultural experience as definitively authentic in any sense other than by way of personal immediacy, which is in a state of flux anyway. We find our friends, our common-minds, and from time to time certain points of multiple contact emerge that might even begin to resemble a consensus, but in no way will it ever become an absolute, thank God, though there those for whom that illusion will be enough.

And yes, there are village greens and church bells; but there are also landfills, inner-city no go areas, motorways, underpasses, council estates, waste grounds, and human and cultural deprivations that would make the third world blush. But the suburban ghetto engenders more beauty in terms of culture as any pretty little English village which priced out the original villagers years ago. You might see that as being somehow typical, quintessential, and maybe desirable - I see it as an atypical & highly reactionary anomaly preserved purely for the benefit of a very tiny minority.

England Culture is the reality of cultural life for every single person resident in England. In this respect I fear the rather exclusive clichés put forward (such as those in the song below) fall appallingly short of the mark and are, therefore, a Faux-Englishness which in being of no use, can only ever function as ornament.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

Lizzie asked if there are "class" distinctions in the U.S. and Canada.    Certainly.   I cannot afford a fancy car or a mansion, but I live in a modest home which makes me middle class, and there are those who cannot afford a home and live from paycheck to paycheck - if they can find work.

While their are "distinctions" such as white collar and blue collar, I don't think our issues are as deep as what we are witnessing from our English pals. Our culture is multi-level and we do not expect a one-size-fits-all solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:37 PM

"But the suburban ghetto engenders more beauty in terms of culture as any pretty little English village which priced out the original villagers years ago."

That is such crap. Both have our culture running through them.

England is not *just* surburban ghettos....it is a mixture of ALL things.

How many rubbish dumps have you sat in then? I've sat in quite a few..because my brother, who has severe dyslexia, made his living off them. I've spoken to 'the pikeys' as the real gypsies called them, I've seen not a great deal of culture amongst them. I watched as Leigh took his cookers and his fridges from them, then turned them into working items, which he sold to the 'posh' people, as you'd no doubt call them, in his small Somerset village. They were good people though, kind people, church going people, who attended their beautiful village church, and their village fete. They worked hard to have their May Day festival too, with their May Queen and their Maypole...They too loved England...

Don't give me the class warfare of 'them and us' because there is only 'We'...good or bad. And my brother still, to this day, makes his living from rubbish dumps, and his friends are those who can't write, or read, other men who've been told they were stupid and dull and dim witted by teachers who were so 'intelligent' that they didn't even understand the wonder of the very people they were lambasting. These people who make their living from the land, from your rubbish and mine, but they are people who know instinctively how to build their own houses, and do so...they are so often deeply talented in many, many ways.

And country people work with the seasons, love the seasons, they know a great deal about our culture, our heritage and our history. Geez, thie Inner City, Urban crap really gets up my nose. England is not JUST the inner cities and the ghettos, it is far, far more, and those who try to perpetuate this myth that only the Inner Cities matter and that we should all live our lives as if we lived in an Inner City are talking through their backsides. There is also terrible hardship amongst many out here in the countryside, so I can assure you that it's not only the city people who are hurting.

Hidden Voices - The Story of the English Countryside


Ron, in my opinion, any flag that falls into hands that take it into disrepute, should be taken back from them, so that once more it stands for Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:42 PM

As I've said, "My father liked to drink, but that doesn't make me licorice!"

And since my mother is Jewish, that fact dioesnh't make me that either.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:44 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you Lizzie - but there is a danger that in attempting to take back such a symbol you become aligned with their ideals - even if that is the farthest from the truth. For instance, the swaztika has significance beyond the Nazis, but it is rarely attempted to be utilized anymore. I think there comes a point where we have to wonder what is more important - keeping alive a "tradition" that brings hurt to others or realizing that traditions are living events that need to adapt to the times. Personal pride seems to become wrapped in patriotism and it only ends with divided communities that do not communicate and work together.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:48 PM

Ron - that is very wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:59 PM

You know what it can all be boiled down to In my humble opinion.
Respect others and treat them as you would want treated

if we all did that, language, differences and everything else wouldn't matter.

It amazes me that when I traveled to other countries, a smile and a hand shake was pretty much universal. I ended up having coffee with my family and a guy's family that I met to ask directions in italy sitting on his porch. we could barely speak to each other. But the kindness and the friendship cut through all of it and it was a wonderful time. His wife made coffee brought out pastries and we sat and laughed barely able to communicate but he understood and so did I and our families. Wonderful people, kindness, and love have no single culture or language

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:33 PM

I know what you mean, olddude. It's not hard to get along if you want to get along. No barrier to great, as they say. Over the years though, it's occurred to me that there are some that don't want to get along, no matter how small the barriers. So it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:45 PM

I'll never let my flag become like the swastika, Ron.   And all those who now turn away from it already, are just paving the way for that to happen. There are some things worth trying to turn around, and the flag of England, is one of them.

And yes, Dan, love is the universal language, for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:58 PM

"There are some things worth trying to turn around, and the flag of England, is one of them."

I wish I had an answer. I don't know all the particulars so I can't comment on whether it is worth it.

That is the same arguement you hear from folks in Southern states that are tied to the confederacy.   Unfortunately everyone seems to have their own self-pride and sense of patriotism that seems to cloud judgement and prevent any sort of compromise or understanding of the hurt from others.   

Again, not knowing fully the significance of St. George, I do not want anyone to think I am comparing the meaning behind it to the meaning behind our confederate flag, but rather the controversy and line-in-the-sand stance that everyone takes - and ultimately lose behind.

At the same time, I know a lot of conservatives who wrap themselves in the stars and stripes as if they own it, and liberals have shied away from jingoism.   I do think that the symbol is much stronger here and it is impossible to desecrate the flag as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

But Ruth, you and I both know that the swastika is alive and well and is chalked on many doorsteps in Leicester alongside the Om symbol and showered with flower petals - should that be discouraged because of the bad connotations? - and just as I carry a present of a ganesha on my person at the request of a friend for whom it means a lot that I do so, I reserve the right to have a swastika tattood in henna on my wrist or the back of my hand.

Black people reclaimed the word Nigger, and for a short time this had the effect of taking the sting out of the word - that is until the music industry absorbed hip hop and recycled the whole thing as a licence for white people to say the word without fear of retribution - as parodied beautifully by Chris Rock - "when is it ok ... " etc

Lizzie, On the subject of differences, I think the first step to understanding is recognizing differences - you are English, I am Irish, you are a woman, I am a man, and that's just for starters. If we put our hands next to each other we would see that our skin is not the same colour or texture even though we fall under the umbrella of white.

We do not perpetuate anything by recognizing these differences, and we do not perpetuate any conflict between us by recognizing that we hold differing opinions, have different senses of humour etc etc.

And likewise, by recognizing that there really are differences between middle and working class moralities, humour, world view, activities etc etc and that different sectors of society have distinct characters to be celebrated and embraced, we promote harmony, and we do not prolong divides.

What prolongs the divide is the entrenched middle class view that the working class should stop making excuses for its lewd rude uncouthness and take responsibility for itself and develop more social awareness, and the entrenched working class view that the middle class should spend less time giving judgemental, sniffy lectures and develop a sense of humour or f*** off.

That's usually how the fights I've seen have started.

Working class culture is responsible for a great deal of what is really valuable in English culture, and football and football culture are central to working class culture.

We take the tube every day and we count at least one football scarf on each carriage.

Underneath the jackets are the team colours.

Familys go out with matching shirts - mum - dad - the boys and the girls.

They sing the songs and they feel a sense of belonging to their town and to each other.

Nowadays they are Black, white, Asian, male, female, young and old.

Just like the rest of us.

And while rivalry exists, they connect with each other and with those from Sao Paolo, Ankara, Gdansk, Rotterdam, Buenos Aires, Naples ... etc

The reason America remains the exception is that the blue collar classes are more into hockey and basketball. That's where the grit is in American sport.

And just as young Irish men wielding bombs don't make all Irish bad, or young moslem men wielding bombs don't make all moslems bad, or young black men carrying guns and knives in New Cross and Peckham where I live don't make all black people bad, so stupid young drunk violent men wearing football scarves will never define working class footie culture as yob culture, but for many middle class observers, there is no difference.

I'm not saying that you fall into this category, but the class divide will exist as long is middle class people continue to pooh pooh its existence and to blame it on the loutish stubbornness of the working classes themselves who seem proud to live in their own filth.

Insane Beard, I thnk your last point in fact echoes my view - I don't think anyone is trying to push a perception of English society as being one thing and another. I think what we have here is a series of different accounts. Sorry for the kneejerk tone of my earlier comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

Lost me with the footie and yob business--

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:44 PM

Read back through thread - if not this one then the one on above the line.

In short

- industrial revolution

- forced migration into cities

- loss of rural traditions and culture

- reinvention of working urban man

- footie at the centre of new identity

- footie the working mans game

- an essential component of English cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:53 PM

lox, imo, your statement would have been more accurate if you had said that some Black people tried to or are trying to reclaim the N word* and perhaps for some of those people some or all of the offensiveness was removed from that word.

However, for me and I believe for most African Americans at this time, the offensiveness has not been removed and probably cannot be removed from that N word. Everytime I read it, I cringe.

*I'll not write it, but you know which word I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM

blimey - lots more wisdom there. I'd like to have a pint with you sometime, lox.

I think my point about Ron's statement earlier is that sometimes, maybe it's okay to say "It's just a symbol." Sometimes maybe a symbol can become so sullied by its associations that it's impossible to reclaim, and the most positive thing is to let it go and to focus on the stuff that really matters. You make a valid point about the swastika in Leicester, but would I feel comfortable as a white person having it on my door? Would, say, a German person feel comfortable trying to re-claim that symbol?

I'm not actually saying that this is how I feel about the flag of St George. In fact, to me the widespread use of the flag of St George is a relatively recent phenomenon, possibly dating from the Euro 96 tournament which was played in England, complete with THAT song. Do you remember when the George's Cross suddenly appeared in those little flag holders on cars and in people's windows? it was actually the Union Jack that was dragged through the mud by the hooligans and skinheads on the 80s - my take is that the promotion of the English flag was a direct response to that, an acknowledgement that the Union Jack was not really redeemable, at least not at that time, but that the flag of St George might offer a more positive symbol of English identity. Of course, since then the BNP has tried to co-opt the St George's Cross too, but I don't think it has anything like the pejorative connotations that the Union Jack did.

But symbols will always change their meaning, won't they? So long as people and societies themselves change. The symbols we choose as emblems are surely no more fixed than we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:20 PM

Agreed Azizi

I think my post fairly clearly implied that ultimately it proved unsuccessful.

The word was born venemous and that is why attempts to reclaim it have failed. Unlike other words that have been abused for derogatory purposes, this word only existed for one purpose and that was to degrade people. It was never redefined.

That is why it remains inextricably associated with violence in popular culture with rare exceptions provided by Chris Rock and a handful of other satirists - though the word is still satirized based on its original derogatory meanings.

Truth is, in the absence of an alternative definition, it wasn't redefined and so it could never really be said to be reclaimed, unlike things like the english flag and the swastika which can be defined differently and therefore can be reclaimed by those who care for their more constructive definitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:05 PM

It will be a long time yet before many of us can see a swastika without making the Nazi association. Honestly, I think you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise ... I suppose you can use it however you want, but don't be surprised when people misinterpret your motives ...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:07 PM

(which I am sure are blameless, based on the record of your postings here).

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:12 PM

Sorry to disagree with you lox...but...   :0)


"And likewise, by recognizing that there really are differences between middle and working class moralities, humour, world view, activities etc etc and that different sectors of society have distinct characters to be celebrated and embraced, we promote harmony, and we do not prolong divides."

No, for me, the exact opposite is true. By saying that, you are saying that people are born a certain way, that they are **born** a certain 'class' and will always remain so. People are people. They are not a 'class'.

"What prolongs the divide is the entrenched middle class view that the working class should stop making excuses for its lewd rude uncouthness and take responsibility for itself and develop more social awareness, and the entrenched working class view that the middle class should spend less time giving judgemental, sniffy lectures and develop a sense of humour or f*** off."

No. It is *nothing* to do with damned 'class'...it's to do with each person deciding to either behave like a selfish, borish twit, or to think of others and decide to be their own person, forge their own way. People have brains, lox, and those brains are fitted with a 'choice' button. It is the choices you make in your life which define you as a person, and nothing else.

"I'm not saying that you fall into this category..."

Thank you, because I fall into NO category, and I do not put others into categories, other than thoughtful people or right pains in the arses.

"...but the class divide will exist as long is middle class people continue to pooh pooh its existence and to blame it on the loutish stubbornness of the working classes themselves who seem proud to live in their own filth."

What the heck *is* a 'middle class person'? In fact, could you define all these classes? There used to be three as I recall from days gone by, Upper, Middle and Working Class. What is each born with, which defines them, apparently for life? Or is it something you *acquire* along the path of life?

I was raised by a man who saw no class, no colour, only people, and he loved people. He was a quiet, very gentle gentleman, courteous, kind and thoughtful. Dad died without a penny to his name, never owned his own house ever, at times couldn't afford to pay his bills, but he poured love into me, and that's what he left me, that was my inheritance. And it is through his eyes that I see the world, as well as through my own.

Segregation, for to me that's what class is about, as much as it is about race, is always bad, always.

Until England let's go of it, we ain't going far, and the whole class issue has been stoked and stirred for decades by those with huge problems on their shoulders. It needs to have the flames put out forever so that a new England can rise from the ashes of bitterness, which have divided it for so very long.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:13 PM

I am rather inclined to be more offended by a social system that defines social worth by wealth than one that depends on other indicia.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:20 PM

Here's a picture to challenge you ...

... Swastika reclaimed!!

http://www.sledgehammertotheface.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/notanazi.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

the link's not working, lox...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM

Lizzie,

We often discuss inter culture diversity on this thread.

It is important to recognize intra culture diversity too.

I too recognize people for who they are and do not discriminate on grounds of race, culture, class, sex or sexuality.

However, to deny that there are different races, cultures, classes, sexes or sexualities or to impose taboos on referring to them or celebrating their individuality within the whole would be as unfair as ... well ... saying that one shouldn't celebrate ones englishness.

Whaddaya say?

Segregation is when people wish to be seperated from groups that they find incompatible with themselves for whatever reason.

Yes People are people - not a race.

But different races are clearly recognizable.

People are people - not a sex

But (in general) peoples sex is recognizable.

etc etc

and good because we live in a diverse society.

There are many different sub cultures within British culture all of which are valid and that includes observable recognizable class distinctions.

Its not an opinion, its an observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:33 PM

swastika reclaimed again ...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:36 PM

Maybe it'll work this time

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:37 PM

sorry mate, still not working...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:39 PM

Hey - mud elves - can you delete my posts with the links - for some reason they don't work from here.

I'm going to try again a different way.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:41 PM

"However, to deny that there are different races, cultures, classes, sexes or sexualities or to impose taboos on referring to them or celebrating their individuality within the whole would be as unfair as ... well ... saying that one shouldn't celebrate ones englishness.

Whaddaya say?"

I say I'm right with you there on everything except for....ummmmm....(she whistles quietly).....ummmmmm....'classes'   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM

Just for what it's worth....Having toured around a bit, myself, I find it completely practical, and smart to learn the language of the country of what currency is being used there. It's just dumb not to. As so far as people's reluctance to learn English here, it's really up to them, no matter how completely stupid that is! I think the thing that people resent about immigrants who don't learn the language(s), is the contempt that goes along with it, and that of course spreads to those who tend to defend such stupid, belligerent, behavior, and attitude. America is no less a 'free-for-all' than your own home.....come to think of it, it is our home!!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:52 PM

Wait a minute, I forgot my helmet. O.K. Go on...BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:54 PM

I know thats your view.

I'm arguing that it is an inconsistent one as long as classes can be observed to exist.

Maybe the stumbling block is the word "class".

If we described English culture as being characterised by intracultural diversity, then to truly embrace English culture as a whole we must accept and embrace football culture as it has a valid and meaningful role to play and much of the humour and behaviour that goes with it is misunderstood by those who are not a part of it.

And I am not talking about the 1 or 2% who are violent or otherwise intimidating in their behaviour.

Go to a football match - not at old trafford or stamford bridge - but somewhere like wigan wanderers or birmingham city.

There's a banter that goes on - some of it is pretty rough but in context is laced with defiant brazen humour and can be pretty funny.

It's not generally my thing, but then I'm a bit middle class like that ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:58 PM

Let me start by saying I did not read all the responses to the initial post. For my own family, we have certain traditions that we keep alive but there aren't a lot of them. My husband and I will soon be adopting 2 children from Ethiopia and we will do what we can to educate them about their heritage (through education and exposure) and to incorporate some Ethiopian traditions into our lives. :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:08 PM

Ruth,

If you search for "Hindu Swastika" on google images and scroll down, you will find on the bottom left of the screen a photo of a young innocent happy Indian lad wearing a red shirt with a white circle on the front containing a black swastika - just like the Nazi flag.

Go to the page and you will find the comment "he can't wear that"

My response to this comment was - why not? - it's his really and he should be allowed to wear it if he wants to promote its true meaning.

Besides - just think how it would haave infuriated hitler! (twat!)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM

I'd like to see more discussion about classes. In the US we say - and feel - that we are classless (Oh! Stop it!!) but anyone over the age of 10 recognizes there is a dichotomy at work that is not so easily dismissed.

In Juneau, Alaska, we have something that to me is unique. In a town of more than 30,000 people - of all classes *g* - many, many of us are on a first name basis with our mayor and probably with our governor, as well as with any other head of officialdom. (I can't say that is currently true - Sarah Palin doesn't actually live in Juneau and therefore is not seen as frequently.)

But in previous administrations the governor walked to work from the governor's house just 4 blocks away and the chances were very good that he knew daily walkers by name.

I've known the mayor for some years. In official venues he is Mr. Mayor to me but in informal gatherings and on the dance floor he is Bruce.

This is true for practically everyone I know. It is even true for a certain panhandler I know- previous governors were known to him as Tony, Wally and Steve.

To share a story that I was told by a tourist some years back: This man in t-shirt and shorts came to the local house museum where I was the caretaker, docent and manager. While I was serving him tea, he said, I've got to tell someone about this. As it happens I am a lawyer so, as lawyers will do, I wandered into your court building today just to look around. I was standing there when this man in a suit and tie rushed up to me and pointed at this surfing scene on my t-shirt and exclaimed, I've surfed there!

Well, that was neat so we stood there for awhile talking about that marvelous - and little known - place and then the man invited me to come for coffee so we could talk some more. He introduced himself to me; he was Justice Carpeneti from the Alaska Supreme Court! That just boggles my mind. He didn't know I am a lawyer. Look at the clothes I am wearing! This would never happen in my hometown.

OK, so Juneau is different. Which is one of the things I love about this town. We come nearer to being class-free than many a place I have known.

However, the one thing I keep coming to in my mind about class in the US is - I'm not sure I can describe it accurately but I'm going to try.

You know when someone gets elected President of the United States? They may be awed at the honor and grateful to be given the chance to serve- but somehow they all seem to accept that the office is not above them, that somehow the knowldge they could be president some day has always been there.

That's when I know that I'm not upper class- there is no way in hell I could accept such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM

lox - Birmingham City? I thought you were suggesting places to weatch football, not panto. :D

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:17 PM

"My response to this comment was - why not? - it's his really and he should be allowed to wear it if he wants to promote its true meaning."

Theoretically, you're right. Practically, depending on where he wears it, people might see it differnently and respond to him accordingly.

I still maintain that the response and connotation would be very different if it were a German wearing it, even if they had precisely the same intention. And to be honest, what would they really be achieving? As I said before, it's just a symbol. And maybe it's not a bad thing to have some symbolds that have been so comprehensively perverted that they stand as a warning to us never to repeat certain mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:19 PM

My insomnia is clearly fading, as my bad typing will attest. Night night.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:21 PM

I was raised by a man who saw no class, no colour, only people, and he loved people.
-Lizzie Cornish 1

Your father sounds like he was a wonderful person, Lizzie. He raised you well.

But with regard to seeing no colour {or "color" as we "UnitedStaters" spell it}, I hope that people don't interprete this to mean that they should never mention their or another person's race or ethnicity. I don't think that people should pretend that race doesn't matter at all-because as long as institutional racism exists, race does matter. Also, as I shared in my earlier comment, I believe that membership in a particular race and ethnicity helps shapes a person's worldview and experiences, By ethnicity I'm including ethnic sub-groups within a particular race such as African Americans who are Gullahs, Creoles, and Carribean born, or born in a particular nation and ethnic community in   continental Africa.


Also, I've noticed in real life that some people are afraid to mention his or her race or another person's race for fear of saying the wrong thing, or offending a Black person or another person who is considered to a "minority" {I prefer the catch-all referent "people of color" to the term "minority"}. However, I believe that racial referents should be acceptable in day to day interactions when they are used as descriptors. But maybe referring to a person's skin tone is an example of something that's more acceptable for people of color to do -depending on the circumstances and the way we mention it-than it is for White people to do. For instance, in attempting to describe a Black person to another Black person, it's pretty common to mention that person's gender and his or her skin color {as in "He's light skinned. or "He's a little darker than me"}. But then again, if a White person who isn't used to being around Black people were to describe a Black person by skin tone, that person may not know all the different variations of what we mean by "light skin" or "brown skin" including "red bone". Do White people make those kinds of references in descriping another White person?

**

In addition, Lizzie, I think in the USA, the three classes are different than what you listed as the classes for Great Britain {upper class, middle class, and working class}. I'd list the economic classes in the USA as upper, middle, and poor. I think that the class system in the USA is much more fluid than in Europe, and a number of people in the working class would be considered part of the middle class {many of the White collar working class would be and some of the Blue Collar working class}. There are working poor {those working for minimum wage, or working half time or even working two jobs} and there are non-working poor-often because they can't find a job.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:24 PM

"I know thats your view.

I'm arguing that it is an inconsistent one as long as classes can be observed to exist.

Maybe the stumbling block is the word "class"."



Noooooo....the stumbling blocks are the blocks that you're surrounding 'people' with.

But I don't 'observe' class, I observe 'people', so how can I see something which I don't see?

"It's not generally my thing, but then I'm a bit middle class like that ;-)"

Oh, poo. LOL

Anyway, I don't like football, it's boring. All those namby pambies falling down crying because someone kicked the ball at them...and all that money they get paid. Yeesh! Besides, it was never the same after George Best gave it up, no-one dribbles like George. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:31 PM

Azizi asks: "Do White people make those kinds of references in descriping another White person?"

It is common when describing someone to another person to say, for instance, S/He has the typical coloring of other redheads.

Or we might say, His blue eyes are vivid next to his white, white skin and black hair.

Is that the kind of thing you mean?

To me personally, just about the prettiest skin around is the warm toffee-colored skin some people have. Somehow the skin seems thicker and more pliant and it looks good with just about anything they could possibly wear.

The comedienne Wanda Sykes has that kind of skin.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:35 PM

Hi, Azizi! :0)

You know, I have terrible vision, as in ****really, really**** terrible vision, almost a +10, so when I take my contact lenses out, I couldn't tell you what nationality people are, barely even their skin colour, certainly couldn't see *any* of their facial features, not a bloomin' thing.

I learned long ago to 'see' with my ears, because that way, you learn far more about someone. All that matters is the soul of a person, and the choices they've made in their lives. Nothing else, not colour, or money, or riches, or country, or success...just their soul.

Blind people 'see' people. And they see them without barriers.

And now, it's time to take my lenses out once more, and be plunged into a different world, where no stumbling blocks exist,,'cos it's sooo late over here in the UK, or rather, early. Yikes! 1.35am!!

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:40 PM

Yes azizi we do - and I personally am just about as descriptive with all sorts of skin and have thankfully just about rid myself of my inhibitions on the subject.

But white includes pale white, milky white, "brown", freckled, "dark" (all still descriptive of white skin).

So I'll mix and match terms.

John was a light skinned black guy,

Fred was a dark skinned white guy.

Bill and george are an albino white guy and an albino black guy respectively.

All in the name of practical descriptive usefulness.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:42 PM

I like to note that I wrote my last post prior to reading GUEST,lox -PM Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM post and the ones that came after that.

I'm pretty much in agreement with what Lox said except that it's not always true that "different races are clearly recognizable."
Physical clues such as skin color, eye shapes, facial features, and hair texture can often be used to determine another person's racial group. However, there are people who are of "ambiguous race or ethnicity". You can't tell by looking at them what race or ethnicity they "belong" to. This can be very difficult for these children, youth and adults-particularly in settings like school where unfortunately, racial divisions still occur.

Also, some racial groups look like other racial groups {for instance some Latinos and some Middle Eastern people} and the prejudice that people have toward Middle Easterns now because of 911 has also affected some Latinos. Furthermore, some people who are members of one racial group look like they might be members of another racial group. And I'm not necessarily speaking of people who have a biological parent from two different racial/ethnic groups. To return to my comment about skin color, some people who have two Black birth parents may be much lighter than a person who has one Black birth parent and one White birth parent. For that reason and more, referring to a person as "biracial" may be informational, but in real life in the USA, those racially mixed people who have one White birth parent and one Black birth parent are considered Black. {Barack Obama, for example}. Of course, that one drop of black blood rule is inherently racist...

My main point is that using physical clues such as skin color to determine a person's race can get real complicated and does create difficulties for those people in part because of internal and external racial assumptions and racial rejudice.