Origins of Carrickfergus

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 08:31 AM

'he' is obviously referring to O'Riada, who wrote or 're-worked' more than a few melodies to be 'let out into the tradition'. Port na bPucai among them (although the present form goes back to an air played by the Blasket fiddlers). There used to be a reference on Peadar O Riada's website to the knowing smiles he exchanged with his father whenever they heard Carrickfergus. There was also a reference to the royalties that could have been had for each time the tune was played on the radio (I am heavily paraphrasing from memory, the website changed years ago I believe). All in all enough to suspect Seán O Riada may have had some hand in the air of Carrickfergus as we know it today.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 09:38 PM

"Try searching Google Earth for Ballygrand, Ballygran, Ballygrat - you won't find any of them. These are made-up names."

I just did. There's a Ballygran estate, not far from Kilkenny.
I don't think it's of much relevance, however. The insistence that it's Ballygrant on Islay is kind of putting me off even considering it.
Anything is possible, but I think the point that "Ballygrand" didn't enter into the equation until the Clancys' version is quite valid.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Seonaidh MacGriogair
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:07 AM

Interesting thread. My band have just recorded the song. We sang it at a gig the other night. At the end of the gig a guy from Islay told us that on the island there is a tradition that the song was written by one of the many Ulster men who came over to work in the marble quarry there. I could believe that. Just a continuation of an exchange of peoples and culture between Ulster and the Western Isles that has taken place for centuries.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:50 AM

The Loudon Wainwright version, for interest and contrast, can be found here on YouTube.

ANd let me add my voice to those who celebrate this remarkable, articulate, persistent thread!

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Billy Finn
Date: 31 May 14 - 02:46 PM

Just listened to the new Sean O Riada album of old piano and harpsichord tunes. Marvellous. The notes with it say that the melody for Do Bhi Bean Uasal were compsed by O Riada, based on an old version of Carrickfergus. Sean also plays a fascinmating version of Port na bPucai from 1971, which goes into jazzm with a menacing bass line. All the sources say that Sean Cheaist`s Blasket island version of Port na bPucai is different, so, it is most probable that Sean O Riada either added to the original or reworked it. Worth listening to. Not bad to have a traditional tune start with Sean O Riada.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Billy Finn
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 04:58 AM

Just listened to Sean Cheast O Cathain`s version of Port na bPucai, courtesy of Peter Laban, and it is exactly the same as Sean O Riada`s version. So, Sean Cheaist played it before O Riada and the latter`s version is a reworking of the island original. Sean O Riada always said the original came from the Blasket islands and Seamus Heaney`s poem is just as relevant as ever. Probably, Carrickfergus was similar and one of Sean O Riada`s many achievements was to present these airs to the general public who weren`t familiar with them.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Caroline
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:44 PM

WOW, just wandered through this thread because a friend wants me to sing Carrickfergus at her husband's funeral! I would like it to make some sense and not be silly in any way; I like the Carrickfergus/Ballygrant/Kilmeny connection and I like various lyrics posted above. Would the best thing be to sew together a collection of verses I think will work at a funeral? I don't want to just regurgitate Van Morrison's version if I can make something more suitable. If anyone is still here - thanks!

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: meself
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:24 PM

Caroline - There is no harm in patching together various verses that you would like to sing; it's what lots of people do. The thing to consider though is what your friend wants - if she is expecting a particular set of lyrics (e.g., the ones Van M. uses), then those are probably the ones you would want to use, under the circumstances.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:30 PM

Sounds like good advice to me.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM

If we're taking the first two lines to have the meaning they normally would in the English usage of Ireland, they would be to say:

"I wish that I were [living] in Carrickfergus, other than the nights, which I would spend in Ballygrand".

Where Ballygrand might be is an open question; place names change, and places that were once prominent disappear into half-forgotten parish names; this happened especially during the Famine.

Songs also appear from localities where they have been locally famous for generations or centuries, and people poke at them with an air of distaste and say "No scholar has ever heard of you…"

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 05:08 AM

Noticed a short thread on this in an Irish forum; apparently there's a little place called Ballygran or Ballyagran, near Carrickfergus. Doesn't appear on Google maps, but then neither do a lot of little places and old names, including my own area.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Caroline
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 02:51 PM

Thanks - I think she isn't so much attached to Van Morrison's specific lyrics as to the melody and the song in general, and I think I can leave out claiming to be drunk and seldom sober without making her unhappy... But I'll send her the verses I plan to sing ahead of time. I have to say, I watched the Celtic Woman version on YouTube and found it slightly absurd to be watching this harpist in a ball gown sweetly singing about being drunk today and seldom sober.... So I have tentatively got Nynia's verses 1, 2, 3, and 5 as my choice, pondering how/whether to deal with Bridget Vesey as I like the rest of that verse very much for the occasion.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Occi
Date: 05 Sep 17 - 05:27 AM

I'm looking for the second half of the following verse

O, ta fhios ag einne nach ag ol a bhimse
Do dearbhis feinig i gcuinne na tigh
Seanna mna an tsaol seo do craithig go leir me
At cruinniu spre suas da glean inning.

My spelling may not be great and I find the modern method of writing dreadful. I was taught using the gothic form, so apologies for that.

Occi

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: MartinNail
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 01:39 PM

Many years ago (16th January 2000), John Moulden posted the English stanzas of "The young sick lover" as printed by Haly of Cork, and referred to "the one printed by Troy of Limerick - differences are probable and will be revealing."

The good news is that the Troy printing is now online on the TCD website: https://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/concern/works/v405sb51b. Other sources suggest that Troy was based in Waterford not Limerick. TCD gives Troy's dates of activity as 1847-1860, so that is some years later than the 1830 date for the Haly printing.

The Troy text has the same overall macaronic structure as the Haly one, but there are many differences (especially in the "phonetic Irish" stanzas). This suggests that one is not copy of the other, and that either both are based on some older oral (or written?) version, or that Troy is based on an oral recollection of Haly.

The first two lines of the second stanza are:

I wish I had you in Carrick, fergus,
Ne faud O naut ud, Bolla quiene,

Not a Ballygrand in sight, and I love the 'Carrick, fergus' -- it sounds like a vocative.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 03:24 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrickfergus_(song)

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 06:25 PM

My knowledge at 16th January 2000 was much less than it is now. The print by Troy was collected by John Davis White who was based in Cashel, Co Tipperary. His collection is concentrated on the east and south so Waterford is a lot more likely than Limerick and I have an address 40 Stephen Street - however, there is no sign of Troy in Waterford in street directories of around the time White was collecting so confirmation will need local inquiry - mind you, while there is a Stephen Street in Waterford, there seems not to be one in Limerick - still, a check is needed.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: MartinNail
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 06:24 AM

John -- there seem to be eight items in the John Davis White collection on the TCD website emanating from John Troy. Each has a differently worded imprint, but four them locate him in Waterford, as follows:

A lamentation, for the Pandora. Which was lost, last week off Youghal
John, Troy. Printer, and wood; Engraver

The peddigree of Alias McCarthy, the Irish fugitive, who was exiled after the reign of King James
John Troy Printer Stephen Street, waterford

The lovely Irish maid
John Troy. Printer 40 Stephen-St. Waterford

The Indians' war
John Troy Printer Waterford

The young sick lover
John, Troy. Printer, and Wood Engraver;

A new song on the arrest of Thomas F. Meagher, Esq
John Troy's Printing Office Stephen-Street Waterford.

The breeze
JOHN TROY. Printer and Brass Engraver

A new hunting song
John Troy's Printing Office

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 04:08 PM

Thanks, Martin, I know of all the Troy prints but, when I wrote above, didn't have time to check my full records. These are in the various appendices of my 2006 thesis - The Printed Ballad in Ireland: A guide to the popular printing of songs in Ireland 1760-1920. which can be downloaded: https://aran.library.nuigalway.ie/handle/10379/5020
Most important for this discussion is the Database and the lists of printers given in the section under Trade.

Subject: RE: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 05:12 AM

I might mention that the Scots immigrants to Northern Ireland rowed across to Scotland from Carrickfergus for Sunday service whenever the sea was safe enough for centuries after they translocated.
Also that there's a long tradition of mournful men who haven't got the woman (or perhaps man) that they wanted, spending their lives as spailpíní, wandering workmen taking work where they could get it; indeed, many of the poets of the 18th century were spailpíní who wrote at night by rushlight after long hours of work, to preserve the ancient oral tradition of poetry in secret written form.
Also, Kilkenny marble was often used for mantelpieces, etc, in Georgian houses; it can be beautiful, with streaks of scarlet and gold through the stone.

Subject: RE: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Nov 24 - 02:14 PM

And by the way, if I haven't already said this, when I learned this song from my mother (when I was still able to sing), I learned it as "I'm drunk tonight, and I'm seldom sober, a constant rover from town to town".