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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 12 May 04 - 02:14 PM GUEST, you are taking me out of context. What I mean is, when such a crime against humanity has been committed, does it really matter where the victim or the perpetrator is from? I'm not sure it does. I don't think the Red Cross thinks it matters, or Amnesty International. Tell me why YOU think it matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 12 May 04 - 03:28 PM brucie: What would training firefighters down the block have to do with war profiteering? We're talking about Berg, who was in Iraq to make money off the war. Therefore, a profiteer. DonMeixner: "Americans working to rebuild Iraq" is a lovely image, but the truth is these people are there to leech profits out of a racist, illegal war. Which makes them bad people, and, yes, profiteers. Like I said, my opinion. I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree," or whatever. And nice try, Wolfgang. But as you know, in that instance I used "subhuman" as a personal insult, not a label for a race of people. Which is a bit of a difference. If you wanted to quote me, you should have quoted me calling Texans "inbred, subhuman, pistol-totin' cattle-fuckers" back in 2001. Which, even though it was written in a joking manner, would've been much more effective. :) Martin Gibson: Boo fucking Holocaust hoo. Don't tarnish your murdered relatives' memories by using them to score points in an argument. That's just tacky. I really couldn't care less which false god you worship, and that has nothing to do with your being a racist. Just in this thread, you've called Arabs "maggot(s)," "dirtbags," and implied that they smell bad. Hmm. So, Arabs are filthy vermin? Like rats? Isn't that what the Nazis said about your family? What makes your racism different? You're just targeting a different bunch of Semites. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Gerard Date: 12 May 04 - 03:36 PM There is a difference between justice and revenge. Justice is specific and has a limit; revenge can be specific, but it is unlimited. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Wolfgang Date: 12 May 04 - 03:44 PM I had considered to quote the 'subhuman' Texans, Lepus, but you didn't really sound serious there. BTW, no one in this thread has called a race subhuman. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 12 May 04 - 03:51 PM Doug- When a liberal has lost an argument and doesn't have an intelligent comment or response, they generally resort to calling you a nazi. Congratulations- it means you have won the argument. It speaks far more to them than it does to you. I get very insulted when someone throws out the nazi tag because the person obviously does not have a clue about history. If they had a thimble of intelligence they wouldn't use the reference. 3 million jews died in Poland alone from nazi's- virtually eliminating the entire population. And you called some terrorists "subhuman" Yeah- I see the similarities. Sean Hannity states that liberals don't understand true evil. All you have to do is read this forum to prove he is right. Terrorists are trying to kill us and we believe it is because of George Bush. (of course that doesn't explain the 9 attacks on America before Bush was elected) It is interesting to note that Al Queda has killed more Muslims than they have killed westeners. (Look at the Saudi Arabia bombings last week) It is also intersting to note that the world comdemmed USA for the prison abuse, but aside from England and Austrailia is dead silent on the beheading. Where is the Muslim outrage over beheading. We are constantly told that it is a religion of peace. Where is the Martin Luther King of the muslim community? Probably beheaded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Amos Date: 12 May 04 - 04:00 PM If the problem with liberals is that they misunderstand true evil, possibly the problem with reactionary neocons is their distorted and often self-serving concept of true good. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DougR Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 PM GUEST: No, you do not speak for EVERYBODY on this forum, and no, not EVERYBODY agrees that replacing Saddam was wrong. SueB: I was referring to Al Queda when I described them as sub-human, and nothing I have read on this thread has disabused me of that belief. KimC: thank you for posting this thread. It needed to be done. The only person I can think of that could have posted it with equal grace, less malice, and studied reason is Rick Fielding, and unfortunately, he is not here to do that anymore. And McGrath: it never entered my mind that this event might get "Bush off the hook." First, I don't think he is on one, and if he is, he will get off it all by himself. To even suggest such a thing is an insult to the young man's family. That's not like you Kevin. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 12 May 04 - 04:10 PM If you all can't carry on a civil discussion without a bunch of mean-spirited swearing and name-calling and ad hominem BS, go start your own thread, and I'll ask for this one to be closed. Doctors make a living from other people's misfortunes. Does that make them profiteers? What about lawyers? Insurance companies? Not everyone who ventures into a war zone is motivated by greed. Some people really do want to help, and assuming that "these people are there to leech profits out of a racist, illegal war" undermines the good work we'll never hear about in the news, because it doesn't make good ratings. We don't care to hear about the doctors volunteering their time to care for the wounded, or about the Nashville mother who teaches Iraqi kids how to read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 May 04 - 04:32 PM Doug - of course I wasn't accusing you of grabbing on to this crime to get Bush off the hook. I do however think that this is one of the results it can be expected to have, though the expression I'd use would be "takemnthenheat off him." The front pages which have had pictures of atrocities or alleged atrocities by the USA and UK are today dominated by pictures of this killing. And I am sure that there would be spin-doctors working for the US Government and military who saw this as a kind of "good news" for them. That's how such people think when they are in a crises. Rememeber the British government official whose reaction to 911 was "this is a good day to bury bad news" - though in fcat she was foolish enough to put this thought on record, and it destroyed her career. And I'm reminded of the recorded fact that when Churchill heard about Peral Harbour his reaction was a sort of grim rejoicing: "No American will think it wrong of me if I proclaim that to have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Jim McCallan Date: 12 May 04 - 06:12 PM "First, I don't think he is on one, (a hook, that is..) and if he is, he will get off it all by himself. To even suggest such a thing is an insult to the young man's family." I think you should let the young man's family decide that for themselves, DougR. I think they have as well; being, as they are, in the process of suing the US Government. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Big Mick Date: 12 May 04 - 06:31 PM I wonder why there was no hue and cry over profiteering when the French and Russians were doing it? Oh, that's right.... they had an agreement with Saddam Hussein. To suggest that this young man was doing something wrong, or deserved a death such as he faced, because he was profiteering is despicable. For the right wingers to act as though these people are barbaric to do such a thing ignores an important fact. How many of these people had children killed during the bombing? How many of these people were happy we took down Saddam Hussein, in fact expressed their gratitude, and are now fighting us. And why? Because we only want to liberate them if they will set up a government we approve of. If we really gave a shit about democracy, it wouldn't matter if the Iraqui people elected a Moslem government. Aren't the people opposed to this the same ones that want to restore Christian values to America? What the hell is the difference? Real liberation would have sought to build a coalition of the people, and their chosen leaders, and them helped them to restore the infrastructure. This death had nothing to do with the sickening abuse, torture and killing of the Iraqui prisoners. These terrorists would have killed this person and any other target of opportunity, even if the abuses had never happened. The right wingers that act as though this is a whole different act. They say that all we did was embarass them, and they react by doing this horrible thing. Kim, Doug, have you forgotten about the prison guard/MP's that fired live ammunition into the prison yard? Confusing post? Yep. Meant it to be. It is meant to demonstrate that all the horseshit I am hearing from folks that think they have all the answers, is just that. What has happened cannot be taken back. All that can be done is to take a very careful measure of where we are, and try to go from there. Clearly the USA cannot just leave, but we had better quit trying to turn this place into Turkey, or western style democracy. Better to figure out what the people that we supposedly went in to help, and then figure out how to give it to them. Oh .... yeah .... and we need to hunt down this savage who cut off Berg's head. I don't care who thinks what of me when I say that with any luck he will die slowly and painfully. And when he gets to the other side and finds out what Allah's real view of his actions are, he will suffer for an eternity. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: M.Ted Date: 12 May 04 - 07:26 PM There is something very peculiar about the beheading video that was pointed out in the Guardian >The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the >assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him. That suggests a >delay between those two portions of tape posted on the Web site. These time stamp differences are evident in the photos at one of the sites listed above-- This is one of a number of strange things about this horrifying incident-- Other things include: the family's claim that he was held by the Americans, the American claim that he was not-- the court action that seemed to result in his release the peculiar fact that he went to Iraq without a job offer, came home, and went back to Iraq again, still without a job-- The confusing claims about his father's political views(some say he is a peace activist, some seem to think he was an avid Bush supporter) The odd fact that initial reports on the discovery of his body in Baghdad say that his body showed signs of trauma, but don't mention that it was headless-- The serendipitous appearance of the body and the video at a time when the Bush people needed it most-- Minor things, admittedly, but vivid images have a way of taking on a life of their own, and obscuring the events that surround them--they represent at best, only a few moments of a larger flow of events, and at, worst, are contrived to convey a message-- . We watch, and wonder, but are completely helpless to do anything--not surprising that folks are a bit touchy-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 12 May 04 - 10:42 PM Mick, the prison guards were clearly wrong to do what they did. It was unnecessary. But now that suspicion is being planted that the video may be a fake, I reckon it's a moot point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Bobert Date: 12 May 04 - 11:05 PM Mick, I'm reading your post and going, "yeah, yeah, okay, yeah" and then the "savage" remark makes me stop my "yeah, yeah, okay, yeah"'s as you seemed to jump time... "Savage" is not in short supply in Iraq, Mickster... Ask any of the Iraqis who have suffered it from the US led forces or their survivers... Other than that, we're not oo far apart... Hey, these folks have been invaded and occupied and are not able to stand up to the might of the US military but they are certainly going to fight with what they have... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: beardedbruce Date: 12 May 04 - 11:28 PM Fact: the Iraqis have the right to fight if they wish. Fact: The US troops and civilian employess has the right to protect themselves, even if it means killing Irqis. Fact: The actions of the prison guards seem to be against the UCMJ, and are being prosecuted. Fact: Few, if any of those critisizing the US for actions in Iraq have made any comment about the actions of anti-US parties. Liberals, in general, show that they hold the other parties to a lower standard than the US- This is as racist and unreasonable as anything I can think of. They are so inferior that they cannot be held to the standards of humanity that the US is expected to observe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 12 May 04 - 11:55 PM Thank Goddess for the voices of courage, reason and compasion: bobert - "...accomplices to lots and lots of murders, including that of Nicolas Berg..." El Greko - always within reason McGrath - "What we should never under any circumstances do is use the crimes and atrocities committed by one side as a justification for the crimes and atrocities of the other - in the way that the butchers of that poor young man have tried to do" M. Ted - You got it! Strollin Johnny: "Whatever the aims of Al Q'aeda are (and I for one am not absolutely clear on that because they seem to change as time goes by)..." Maybe their aim is to confuse and deflect the attention of the general population with terror so that the attention of the general population is diverted from the loss of freedoms at home. Maybe they're highly trained mercenaries hired by Multi-National Corporations. Maybe the U.S. and Britain and Australia weren't "sucked in at all". Your guess is as good as mine. and you said, "...they'll just find another set of 'aims', another 'cause', more 'demands' to justify their atrocities." Who are you talking about? Actually, ...if it weren't for Bush being so arrogant and wanting to "...go it alone..." coupled with the fact that he 'jumped the gun' and he's a liar to boot, I might agree with you. :^) What I want to know is Al Q'aeda's version of the story. Was the victim being accused of a crime and was this a modern version of Iraqi justice by public execution, or was it an act of terrorism for the sake of Terrorism? For all I know, it was mercenaries acting in behalf of the Bush administration to deflect attention from the 'prisoner abuse' scandal. Larry K is a good example of dualists who believe that the world can be neatly divided into little packages of good and evil. I guess that depends on which side you're on. This threat is beginning to sound like a civil war. Is that what's really happening in America? I hope Guest and others are prepared to do battle with the Giant and move from words to action. Lepus Rex - Thanks for being so "RIGHT ON" !!!!! Gusest Gerhard - "...'Justice is specific and has a limit; revenge can be specific, but it is unlimited." Thank you for that clarification. Kim C - Thanks for starting this thread but you have to admit, doctors and teachers aren't in it for the money. Businessman are. Thats right Mick, "...Better to figure out what the people that we supposedly went in to help, and then figure out how to give it to them." As far as finding the guy who actually did the beheading; very doubtful. He's probably dead by now. The propaganda is so heavy that you definitely need to be able to read between the lines. I wonder when the American public will tire of being manipulated and controlled? I'm sure that many good, Germans were caught in a similar web of deceit by their leader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Jim McCallan Date: 13 May 04 - 12:00 AM "The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him" I have studied the video of the alleged beheading, this evening, and I would like to give you my own assessment of what I noticed about it. The video starts at 13.26:24 13.26:24 - :27 Nicholas Berg sitting on a chair; camera angle from right. with hands untied "My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael 2.18:33 - :43 Here he speaks straight to camera "... my mother's name is Susanne..." He then tells us his family members' names, and where he is from. There is an obvious cut, here, as the next frame has Mr. Berg sitting on the floor, hands tied behind his back, and feet bound 2.40:03 - 2.44:12 - Speech from the terrorist in the centre of the video wearing black mask, and Mr. Berg is pushed to the floor. 13.45:47 - Video resumes, but the picture is very blurred, and the time on the video jumps eight seconds at 13.45:52 to 13.46:00 13.45:52 - 13.46:33 The 'Beheading' 13.47:47 -:53 Displaying the head of Mr. Berg 2.46:18 - :22 Displaying the head 13.48:38 - :49 A 'pan' shot circling above his head, lying on what appears to be his torso There seems to be a synchronisation problem with sound to video; the speaker 'coughs' at one stage, but he doesn't 'cover his mouth' until a good 5 seconds after it. The screams of this poor unfortunate man, however, are audible 7 seconds before he is pushed to the floor, and the person who made the speech is the person who is seen producing the knife and beheading Mr. Berg. When the video cuts to 13.47:47, the person who is standing next the speaker, a tall man with a white mask, is seen holding the knife, and raising the head. A different camera angle at 2.46:18 shows the same person (apparently) displaying Mr Berg's head. I say 'apparently' because the camera shoots him with the wall as a backdrop, and not at all out of proportion to the picture. The person in the white mask who is standing next to the speaker, while he is making the speech, is the tallest of the people there, is of a different build, and the top of his head is out of camera shot. It 'looks' like a different person in the final frames of the video. All of which may mean a lot... or nothing. The beheading seems real enough though, I am very sorry to say. I think the video was made using two different cameras, however, and the 11 hr discrepancy that MTed refers to may be a case of the two cameras having different display settings; ie one having a 24 hr display (13.26), and the other having a 'AM/PM' display (2.40) A one hour time difference between the where the owners of these cameras last synchronised their equipment, could account for that discrepancy. Either way, it was an entirely academic exercise. The fact remains that Mr Nicholas Berg spent his last moments in incredible fear and shock, and my thoughts are very much with his family this evening. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 13 May 04 - 12:08 AM Thanks, Jim. I'm sure this was set-up. Too slimy for words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: bengi Date: 13 May 04 - 02:35 AM Carol c How boring is your life? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Wolfgang Date: 13 May 04 - 04:51 AM Perhaps, it was quite the opposite. The video of Nick Berg was the real thing, but all the pictures showing American soldiers abusing and torturing Iraqi prisoners are fakes. They come very handy for Bin Laden's Al Qaeda at a time when the outrage about the Madrid carnage and about the bombings of Iraqi worshippers has not ended and his support in the Arab world was shrinking. So he staged the abuse photos with the help of some paid US soldiers. His people in the American government, the Quislings who have been promised to get a big reward once his plan of Islamic world domination has succeded, leak some informations about the pictures being real in oder to dupe the senators, the public and the president (though maybe he is not duped here, but is in the scheme). These pictures are a tremendous help to OBL, so we have to ask ourselves why are they published exactly at this time when they have been made months ago. I leave it to your guess who is profiteering from this. Wolfgang (No, I don't mean what I have written; yes, I am serious about conspiracy theorising) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 13 May 04 - 05:52 AM McGrath - no sir, innocent of the charge! Not racist comments at all, but another attempt at irony - I was trying to reflect, deflect and negate the ridiculous assertions of others that people native to the Middle-East are 'subhuman', or 'savages'. I apologise to all if my skill with language wasn't sufficient to make that obvious. Johnny :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 13 May 04 - 09:01 AM "Fact: Few, if any of those critisizing the US for actions in Iraq have made any comment about the actions of anti-US parties." Most of us criticisizng the US for actions in Iraq opposed our government's decision to invade and occupy Iraq, so we have been very consistent in exercising our democratic rights of dissent. And nothing pisses you right wing nuts off more than that. "Liberals, in general, show that they hold the other parties to a lower standard than the US- This is as racist and unreasonable as anything I can think of. They are so inferior that they cannot be held to the standards of humanity that the US is expected to observe." No, we don't have a racist double standard. We oppose what our government is doing. There is a difference. I, as a US citizen, can only influence my own government. By opposing my government when I feel it is wrong, I am performing my sacred duty as a citizen. And nothing pisses you right wing nuts off more than citizen dissenters taking their duties seriously. That is why, beardedbruce, the parties out of power are known as THE OPPOSITION. Get it? We oppose the current government, because that is our duty as citizens to try and influence the process, and have the government do what we deem right and just when acting in our name. The government works for us, capiche? I'm beginning to think that Republicans all failed their government/civics classes in high school, because few of today's Republicans seems to know how our democratic government works. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 09:55 AM Gargoyle, I would just appreciate it if people would be civil to each other on my thread. If they can't do it, I'd rather not have the thread be open. I don't think that has anything to do with hubris. Kim chee may be a rotten cabbage, but it's also pretty spicy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 10:01 AM Another story here This story says that the Jordanian man referenced earlier may or may not have been part of the execution party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 13 May 04 - 10:46 AM Wolfgang - I don't think that conspiracy theorizing is necessarily wrong. Depends entirely on sources (which are pretty sketchy due to the secrecy of the U.S. govt.) and the ability to put 2 and 2 together. In fact, all we can do is speculate as to what might be happening in Iraq. Considering that at least two of the interrogators giving orders were, in fact, contractors, we may never unravel this web of deceit. All we can do is try. In doing so we reveal the ugliness of war and awaken others to the fact that their sons and daughters are taking part in less than honourable actions abroad. When we learn more about the chain of command in the prison, we will learn that the U.S. govt. is capable of almost any kind of 'set-up' to avoid responsibility for acts of inhumanity. Rumsfeld has never had any respect for an international code of conduct or the opinions of other countries (even allies). His thinking is that of someone who believes he is all-powerful and above the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 10:52 AM "His thinking is that of someone who believes he is all-powerful and above the law." So how long have you been close personal friends with Mr. Rumsfeld? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 13 May 04 - 10:59 AM Rumsfeld testified before Congress yesterday that he supported the interrogation techniques used by the military interrogators, the results of which are in the photographic evidence. He said the lawyers OK'd everything, so that makes it OK with him. The guy is so arrogant, and so is his boss. Today Rumsfeld flew to Iraq, to do more "kick ass" military might damage control, which is accomplished in this administration by exploiting the support for the troops. After seeing the photographic evidence yesterday, members from both sides of the aisle said the Geneva Convention violations were much more widespread than just a few bad apples, which is the Bush administration position. Also, the first female combat BG ever (whom the adminsitration is trying to pin the whole thing on now, thanks to Taguba's report), isn't going down without a fight. And it looks like she has a pretty good lawyer, too. They (the BG and her lawyer) are pinning this on the two highest commanders in Iraq, for stealing her troops out from under her, and from refusing to take into account her concerns over MP reservists being given authority to use lethal force in circumstances where it wasn't warranted. Bush, IMO, is a fool not to just get the pictures out, fire Rumsfeld and Meyers (the chairman of the joint chiefs), and move on in this election year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Bobert Date: 13 May 04 - 10:59 AM What "democracy", GUEST, can you be talking about? And the Repubs must have done very well in government/civics oin school because they would have had to to figure out so many creative and corrupt ways to defeat democracy. Not to creep too far here, but remember Florida? Well, in spite of being caught for illegally dumping some 90,000 black folks from the rolls, they are still doing it, not only in Florida, but now other states around the country. Talk about the arrogance or power? Jim Crow is alive and well... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: S O P Date: 13 May 04 - 11:15 AM Hey Bobert: There's a new Michael Moore movie comin' out. He has the truth, he'll cure what ails ya since you will obviously believe anything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 13 May 04 - 11:23 AM Uh, DougR, I hate to disagree with you (actually, I love to disagree with you, but usually on more important matters) but I don't think this was started with all the grace, equanimity and reason that Rick would have brought to it. In fact, the title shows that it was started as a kind of rebuttal to "American soldiers torturing iraquis." But these people were probably not Iraqi, and there is only one American involved, which makes two significant distortions in a thread name of only three words! Although Kim claims this to have been an honest mistake, it is still the same kind of distorton that allowed George Bush to convince most Americans that Iraq sent over the 9-11 Hijackers. This is not a balanced or even accurate statement of the situation. It is instead right-wing propoganda supporting a neoconservative agenda, whether intentionally so or not. This, I think, is why it upset some of us. I think Rick Fielding would have been more careful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 12:09 PM Hizbollah Condemns Beheading This story refers to the execution squad as "Iraqi militants." I guess they made an honest mistake too. In my mind, "Iraqi" referred to "people fighting on the side of Iraq." Let me apologize (again) for not being specific enough. I assure you all (again)it was not an intentional distortion - I was speaking in general terms. Apparently no one has any definite evidence as to the actual nationality of the executioners. As I stated before, I thought the issue deserved equal time. If that qualifies as a rebuttal, so be it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 12:16 PM PS - If someone wants to change the title of the thread, go ahead. I really don't want a simple posting of a news story to be mistaken for "right-wing propoganda [sp]supporting a neoconservative agenda." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 13 May 04 - 12:42 PM Oops, sorry about the spelling boo-boo. "Propoganda" indeed! And as I said, Kim C has already said it was an honest mistake and I believe her. (Er, is Kim C a her? some of the Kims I know are men....) Although it does seem to have either made an honest mistake or to be withholding evidence as to how they know the executioneers were Iraqi, the very interesting reuters article Kim C posts in her 12:09 PM posting should maybe shut up the nuts who shout "where is all the Arab outrage about the beheading?" Here's a hint boys: you don't get Saudi TV, so how would you know if there WERE Arab outrage? You assuming there isn't says more about you than about Arabs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 13 May 04 - 12:52 PM I would also like to add that, while I do understand the use of "Iraqi" to mean "those fighting on the side of Iraq," remember that Al Qaeda is not doing so. They are fighting for fanatical pan-Arabist and indeed pan-Islamist extremism. The fact that they hitched this beheading to the prison abuse scandal doesn't mean they are fighting for Iraq; they were committing such atrocities, including 9/11, when they were open enemies of Iraq. They are opportunists, and will claim to be defending the Iraqi people against American aggression, so they can mislead innocent Iraqis. If this was indeed Al Qaeda, we should NOT confuse them with "Iraq," or assume that things we do to innocent Iraqis will avenge acts committed by Al Qaeda, even if Al Qaeda is now, in the wake of our disastrous invasion, infiltrating Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Once Famous Date: 13 May 04 - 12:59 PM Lupus Rex You are a Nazi and subhuman, a filthy rat, and a maggot. go ahead, hate America, hate the Jews and post your hate for them and deny the holocaust while you are at it as you did. Defend the Islams who did it for allah. You obviously don't know the difference between evil and good. I'm sure your life is a pathetic void. Larry K and DougR are so right on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 01:19 PM Indeed, I am a Her, and I will admit to being ignorant of a good many things. I will also admit I am confused about the Al Qaeda/Iraq connection/non-connection. What you're saying then, is AQ doesn't really give a rip about Iraq, they're just using it as a political football, as it were; taking advantage of the situation. That ain't very nice. I'll admit I hadn't really thought about that. Someone else earlier mentioned that the execution squad likely would have killed Berg, or anyone else who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, regardless of the prison scandal, that they just used that for a handy excuse. Aren't some of the AQ members from Iraq? Or are most of them from other countries? Mister did make the comment the other day that a good number of the people fighting against us there are not themselves Iraqis. Gets more muddled by the moment, don't it? Y'all, please don't be calling each other Nazis and the like. It makes bad medicine and negative energy and I think there's already quite enough of that to go around. Try to disagree like gentlemen. I know your mamas taught you manners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Big Mick Date: 13 May 04 - 02:12 PM Bobert, you and I agree on more than we disagree. On this we disagree. Anyone, in any Army or group, that executes someone in this manner, just to make a point, is a savage. Period. IMO, of course. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 13 May 04 - 02:20 PM Wolfgang: Ah, you're right that no-one on this thread has called a race (your definition or mine) "subhuman." Thanks for the correction. However, I still feel that the use of the word to describe "the enemy" is dangerous and Nazi-like, and especially so coming from right-wingers. All I originally suggested to DougR was that this statement was out of character for him, and that he should perhaps reconsider his choice of words. Big Mick: Where has anyone said that the kid deserved to die? (Excellent points, otherwise, though, especially about the motivations of "terrorists.") Since it was me who first brought up the word "profiteer," I assume that I'm the source of the confusion. If so, know that my initial statement should be read as "no-one, even parasitic war profiteers, should die such a horrible death." Which is pretty much the opposite of "he deserved to die." Martin Gibson: Heh, I'd be able to take you more seriously if I didn't "hear" your posts with the voice of an outraged Jerry Stiller. Relax. I didn't "deny the Holocaust." I just told you to stop whining about it to gain sympathy and "score points." That's an incredibly cheap way of trying to win an argument, especially for a Jew. Speaking of Jews, where did I express any hatred for them? I mean, if you're going to accuse me of something, be accurate, as I was when I called you a racist. Don't just pull crazy shit out of your ass. So, about the gaps in the video... I haven't actually viewed the video, so anyone who has (Jim McCallan, for instance): is Berg actually moving/screaming, obviously alive during the actual beheading? Or was he perhaps dead before the beheading? And thanks, gargoyle, for indirectly reminding me that I'm out of kimchi. I'll pick some up this afternoon. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Once Famous Date: 13 May 04 - 02:30 PM Lupus Rex would you like a top hat and cane to go with your tap dance? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: M.Ted Date: 13 May 04 - 02:31 PM Jim, Thanks for the careful examination and thoughtful comments on the beheading video. I especially appreciated the fact that you made note of the synchronization irregularities. I have not seen the video, only some of the picture frames from it(I tried to find it on-line, but couldn't find a link that worked), and I hadn't realized degree of editing that had been done. Your speculation about the time differences is certainly a possibility--and not one that anyone else seems to have come up with-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 13 May 04 - 02:32 PM There are some people who cannot differentiate between a palestinian terrorist blowing up a bomb in a mall which kills innocent woman and children, and an Ireali pinpoint attack on a Hamas leader that unintentionally kills one of the terrorists family member. These people see no difference between these two acts. I feel sorry for them. There are some people who cannot differentiate between a terrorist purposely beheading a civilian (for the crime of trying to rebuild Iraq) and an American bombing a terrorist camp which kills civilians that are being used by the terrorists as shields. These people will say "americans are killing innocent children as well". I feel equally as sorry for these people as well. They clearly have lost their ability to think clearly. Yes- I do believe there is wrong and right. Yes-I understand that it depends on what side of the aisle you are coming from. My guess is that Jeffrey Dalmer and Ted Kucinzki both adamently believed in what they were doing. So did Hitler. There are some people who will defend Hitler. Hey- he was a vegetarian, and a vehement anti smoker. Therefore, he can't be all bad. He still was evil. We can argue what is good and what is evil. Sometimes it is hard to tell. In the case of terrorism, it is not hard to tell. Terrorism is evil and must be destroyed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Al Qaeda" beheads an American From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 May 04 - 02:33 PM "Iraqi" referred to "people fighting on the side of Iraq". But isn't "the Coalition" supposed to be fighting on behalf of the the Iraqi people? ............... I stiill can't see where there is a clear line between speculation, where the facts are not clear, and "conspiracy theories". It seesm to me that most theories are conpiracy theories, but some are plausible and based on evidence, and some are not. After all, the link between Al Qaeda and 911 is based on theories about a conspiracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 03:27 PM I meant the people fighting AGAINST the Coalition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 13 May 04 - 04:00 PM KimC, Some Al Qaeda members are from Iraq, but not many. Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, ironically, hate each other, and Saddam never supported Al Qaeda's activities. Al Qaeda is an internationalist islamist movement, and Saddam was a nationalist, secular dictator. To be in Al Qaeda was automatically a vote of no confidence in Saddam, like being a communist in a monarchy would be a vote of no confidence in the king. Thus to be an Al Qaeda member was very dangerous in Iraq under Saddam. None of the 9-11 hijackers was Iraqi. In fact, most of them came from Saudi Arabia, but you don't see us going to war there. The government has been trying to convince Americans that there was a connection between iraq and Al Qaeda, so that this war can seem like a retaliation for 9-11. In fact, this war was part of the neoconservative agenda before 9-11; it's not just Al Qaeda, but also the US government, who are using handy, trumped-up excuses to justify crimes they were going to commit anyway. This is what I meant earlier when I suggested you were a victim of US Government Propaganda. It was not intended as a slur on you, just as an observation that their attempts to confuse you have succeeded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Ebbie Date: 13 May 04 - 04:26 PM "Terrorism is evil and must be destroyed. " Granted. However, terrorism is not a snake in the grass or an elephant or a human being that can be eradicated with guns. Terrorism is a means to terrorize for whatever purpose. As such, it's not something you can kill. It's an idea, a mindset, a cloud in the sky, nothing concrete that you can grasp. Look at the people who create and spread computer viruses for an example of non-lethal terrorism- you can run along behind the viruses and kill each one as they become evident but you can't kill the person that's going to do it beforehand or even so much as stop the person before s/he does sets it free on the world. The worst thing about hunting down and killing those who terrorize in the name of country, religion or family is that in the act of killing one terrorist you are creating another. And there will always be another generation... Is there anything that does work? I dunno. Understanding grievances would be a start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 04:45 PM Nerd, I knew none of the hijackers was from Iraq, and I also never was of the opinion that the war in Iraq was retaliation for 9/11. I thought it was retaliation for the last 12 years that Saddam Hussein flouted all the UN resolutions he said he would keep, and because somehow he himself had most of the world leaders believing he was hiding something. Maybe he was just pulling a good bluff to look like a big man in front of his supporters. Anyhow I think the news media are partly to blame for people's confusion. Since we are able to transmit news almost instantaneously, a lot of things get reported before all the facts are there; then we all see different stories in different sources, and sit around going, "I read this," "Oh really? Well, I read THAT," "no, wait a minute, I read something else entirely." In my mind, a story isn't proper news until all the facts have been gathered and checked out. I think they used to do that in the old days before instant communications. Ebbie, understanding grievances is the optimum way of handling disputes between people who want to listen to reason. I'm afraid terrorists don't fall into that category. I don't know the answer either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 13 May 04 - 05:16 PM Martin Gibson: "Tap dance?" And what is it that I'm "tap dancing" away from, genius? Have any examples of my Jew-hating, Holocaust-denying ways? See, if you're going to make a claim like that, you need, uh, evidence. For instance, when I called you a racist, and compared your anti-Arab anti-Semitism to Nazism, I had abundant evidence to back up my claims. Provided by you, in this thread, even. So, either prove it, be silent, or surrender. You're not capable of smearing me. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: The Stage Manager Date: 13 May 04 - 05:38 PM I utterly abhor the act of desperate barbarism inflicted upon Nicholas Berg and his family. Nobody should ever have to suffer that way through such an indiscriminate act of savagery. At the same time I do not accept that this act was perpetrated by persons who should be considered as 'subhuman'. I believe the murderers to be both fully human and fully aware of what they were doing. It has always been my understanding that demonising "the enemy" is a necessity of war. The belief that the enemy is somehow 'subhuman' or in someway 'inferior' is surely a prerequisite (or even an excuse) that enables soldiers to perform their duties with the full support of their governments and countrymen. If we take this view wholeheartedly then there is no act, however abhorrent, that cannot be inflicted on an enemy, and ultimately justified in the name of defence or imposing a 'better' or 'more human' regime. I feel we have to resist all attempts at demonisation, and take the view we are all equally human. And because we are all equally human we are all equally capable of these 'subhuman' acts if pushed hard enough and into a corner. I suspect if we all think long and hard enough we could all identify circumstances in which we might kill another human being, particularly if we felt that we, and our families, were being threatened. If we take the view that someone is a fanatic, religious or otherwise, and is somehow subhuman, then we must also accept the probability that they view us in the same light, regardless of how loftily we view our own motives, and we therefore have to accept the inevitable consequences of this. I honestly believe this was probably the case with those who perpetrated 9/11 and Berg's murder. They believe America and Americans to be 'subhuman'. Surely this way lies madness and conflicts that no amount of firepower, brute force, or "Shock & Awe" are going to resolve. I perceive the real Iraq war starting the moment President Bush stood on that aircraft carrier and announced "Mission Accomplished", a remark that I find is sounding ever more hollow and fatuous as events unfold and the body count increases. Resolution? I believe it begins with looking the "enemy" straight in the eye and acknowledging common humanity, and everything, including the abyss, that this involves. Otherwise the result is Assured Mutual Destruction, not in an instant perhaps, but inevitable none the less. Like it or not "Terrorists" are as human as the rest of us and we have to find a way of engaging with them if we are to end the conflict. I'm not aware that anyone has ever neutralised terrorism by bombing the shit out of all and sundry. Quite the contrary in fact. Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 05:46 PM Bill, I don't know that anyone has ever neutralized terrorism at all. Anyhow, that was a really good post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 13 May 04 - 05:51 PM An excellent post, Bill. clint |
