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BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Peter the Squeezer Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM I don't want to alienate fascists. I want to vapourise them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM Dammit Cornhole old buddy....You must not be listening to me and you're still fuckin' up here! You've had threads here before where you pass on your bullshit but manage to garner a pity-vote for yourself and people are calling for me to stop calling you a broke-dick slimebag and telling you to lick my nutsack. But on this thread you're going off like sputtering Roman candle and you can only get other nutjobs like yourself to side with you. Ya' gotta' do a lot better.................. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM Personally, I think arguing about fascism on Mudcat with some knob who thinks you're weird if you don't want to have a pint with a paki-basher is going to make bugger all difference to the lives of people on the receiving end of racist violence. I also think all the armchair philosophical, oh-so-clever, post-modern debates about the tautology of "fascism" in 2010 are totally missing the point. Relect for one miserable moment, on what is happening to real victims of racism in the real world. Walk a mile in their shoes. Yes, yes, yes, you can smugly call someone a "fascist" for being resolutely anti-racist (because being "resolute" is suddenly a symptom of fascism for today's ultra-liberals, isn't it?). But at the end of the day, what the fuck is all that about? You scored a pissy little worthless point in a shitty "debate". Bully for you. Clap, clap, clap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM People should consider Umberto Eco's views on the nature of fascism. Well, right wing apologist twats should, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Bill D Date: 26 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM Did ANYONE bother to read artbrooks' post above? Most everyone is ignoring the difference between racism & fascism, and 'reading between the lines' at to whether Conrad supports either one. They are also making a big leap tossing the BNP into the discussion when it was not specified....it is more racist than fascist. I don't agree with his (Conrad's) 'suggestion' that anyone spend time going out of their way to accommodate fascists, or to seek out any music glorifying nasty political extremist politics.....and I have no idea why he bothered to start such a stupid thread (except maybe to stir things up)... sure did work, huh? *I* know how to deal with any sign the fascists...or Nazis...or the KKK...is coming to ANY 'folk' event in any open way! If I KNOW their affiliation, I ignore them...if they try to make their politics an issue, I'll help toss them out!!.....but why would they identify themselves just in order to attend a music event? Sheesh, folks.... condemn what is CLEAR... not just anything you assume is hidden in some off-the-wall post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 26 Feb 10 - 08:34 PM Thanks Bill D By the way to clarify I dont think anyone should go out of their way to accommodate anyone fascists or seek out anything. If I knew that someone was a Fascist I and came wondering if a seat was free at a group sing or session I would say yes it is no one is sitting there join in. There would be no point in talking about politics and If he brought it up I would render my opinion of his views only when asked and that briefly. If he wanted to show or sing or play a fascist song I would consider doing so and then determine how I felt about the construction of lyrics, of the notes, and the fit between the two. If the lyrics were offensive I might note that I did not agree with them but if they maked good rhyme and went well with the notation then I would say so. Photographed by the correct photographer even a pile of manure can be a thing of beauty- you don't have to eat it unless you want to. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:02 PM Actually, Fascism is the opposite of Communism. Ronald Reagan was told to embrace it by his handlers. Maybe that's why he rolled over on so many of his friends during the House UnAmerican Activities Commitee hearings. Or maybe it was because he was offered the chance to play the part of president in "The Dismantling of America." The play ran in Washington DC for eight years. I didn't like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:49 PM ""undesirables and defectives" such as Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, and anyone else that the leaders took a dislike to."" As pointed out by Don F! Given the views expressed by a leading official of the BNP, in relation to David Cameron's son, and I quote:- "After all, it's not worth keeping them alive, is it"? And another who said "Rape is no more important than force feeding a woman with chocolate" I'd say that those ideals gel quite nicely with the ideals of Nazi Germany, wouldn't you? Fascist is a mild word for what the BNP actually are, and racist is obviously true since it required legal action to stop them from excluding immigrants (especially black ones) from membership of the "Party". By all means alienate them, and any others of the same persuasion. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 27 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM Just dawned on me that the Fascists have won- The have gotten a good number of folks here to join them in their intolerance and discrimination. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: mousethief Date: 27 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM Oh puh-leeze. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM Maybe you should crunch 'em up and make 'em into sandwiches? Then, you could sell 'em to Tesco's and then...they'd get eaten by people of different colours and religions...who'd burp contentedly, as they munched and munched and munched.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 27 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM Yeah, I'm intolerant of fascists in the same way that I would be intolerant of a fourteen-foot alligator roaming free in my neighborhood. They do happen to have an established history, and it wouldn't be very rational not to be intolerant of them. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Bill D Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM I'm intolerant of Nazis, Fascists, Ku Kluxers, Cannibals, sadists, child abusers, narrow-minded ideologues, ...........and those who can't separate a general concept from the practical application thereof. Them alligators is usually easier to identify than all them other nuisances. If I was doing a concert (perish the thought) and I had a full house of nothing but all those types I don't like, and didn't know it, there'd be little to react to. If they all came in wearing uniforms & buttons and trying to distribute literature, there would BE no concert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: GUEST Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM Conrad, 1) think 2) write Try it in that order for a change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:28 PM You got that wrong GUEST. Should read 1. Think 2. Think again 3. Don't bother writing. Everybody here knows what to expect from Conrad, and nobody is really interested. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:29 PM That guest post was me. Forgot cookie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Richard Bridge Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:02 AM If, however, you were giving a concert, and it was full of fascists concentrating hard on you, and you saw the 14 foot alligator come in at the back and they didn't, you'd try very hard to hold their attention, wouldn't you, while the 'gator got closer, and closer, and closer to them... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:26 AM Don Firth. "Yeah, I'm intolerant of fascists in the same way that I would be intolerant of a fourteen-foot alligator roaming free in my neighborhood." One slight quibble, namely that an alligator is not responsible for its actions or for the consequences of its actions. Human beings are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Bill D Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM Like I said...if I knew they were fascists, the alligator would have found an empty hall.....and even given your premises, the alligator would gotten only one.....and I don't like messy halls. (I appreciate humor, and I don't like folks like fascists when they are acting like fascists....but I WILL keep my priorities and my head straight about exactly what the issues is and is not.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:34 PM All too true, Fred. But I have an alternative. How about introducing the fascist and the alligator to each other? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: mousethief Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:30 PM Surely the fascist wouldn't be intolerant. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:35 AM Don Firth "How about introducing the fascist and the alligator to each other?" An excellent idea, always provided it's an anti-fascist alligator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:17 AM Eleven new fake profiles on Bebo, all of whom are asking to be added to my friends list. Usual unprintable response from me! Bebo unterested in complaints, so WHAT ELSE IS NEW? IDs are:- Wysiwyg Thompson [donthompsonbnp] - Picture photoshopped, me playing for nasty Nick. Richard Hoff Bridge [richardhoffbridge] - No Picture. Jeddy Rose [JeddyRose] - Usual picture. Mudcat Cafe [Mudcat BNP] - Picture Unknown (to me) woman. Fred McCormick [folkM3] - Picture BNP membership card purporting to be Fred. Katlaughing [katlaughingbnp] - Picture supposed to be of Kat. John Barden [JohnB4641] - Picture photoshopped, John playing with BNP ad behind. Joan Crump Bruce Murdoch [BruceM0544] - Head shot of man with painted face. Virginia Tam [vivvtam] - Picture of Tam. Richard Hoff Bridge [hoffbridge] Picture of Richard, flipped to make him a southpaw. All those bracketted items are the Bebo usernames of the fakes. I'm taking the lot to Bebo, and proclaiming them to be fakes. They can't then say that they were unable to find them. Step 2 will be a visit to the police, and a couple of enthusiastic journos. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:22 AM I fell foul of html, which I absolutely don't comprehend, and lost all the IDs. They were in the angle brackets we use to enclose bold, italic, or underline commands, and they all vanished. Can one of our clones please recover them, or should I re-list without brackets? Don T.
[fixed- be careful--a clone] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM I too have found, Don, that using angle-brackets except for html causes the content to vanish ~ presumably they are only programmed to respond to html instrucions on this site. So now I use one of [], {}, (), all of which seem to respond OK. Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:03 AM You are obviously right, Mike, in the case of Mudcat, but when reporting to Bebo the angle brackets are part of the username. For that reason, and not knowing the likely outcome, I used them. I'll know better in future LOL. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:22 AM "Based upon this thread thus far many simply believe that you can alienate and exclude a person from music and our community just because of political views. Sad." You say "just because of political views" like it's of no more importance than ones preference for coffee over tea or draught beer over bottled, to borrow from one of your other threads. Well, political views define a person like taste preferences never could, and if you espouse repugnant political views then YOU are repugnant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:36 AM "Fred McCormick [folkM3] - Picture BNP membership card purporting to be Fred." Don. I've only just seen this. Needless to say it's a complete con, probably posted by our old friend who used to post on this site under multiple aliases. With the exception of Mudcat and similar message boards, I'm not into social networking and am not familiar with Bebo. How does one go about getting this picture removed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:38 PM ""Fred McCormick [folkM3] - Picture BNP membership card purporting to be Fred." Don. I've only just seen this. Needless to say it's a complete con, probably posted by our old friend who used to post on this site under multiple aliases. With the exception of Mudcat and similar message boards, I'm not into social networking and am not familiar with Bebo. How does one go about getting this picture removed?"" Don't bother taking action at the moment Fred. Earlier today I put in a suitably snotty report to Bebo, giving the whole list of IDs and demanding action. I received an acknowledgement within an hour, saying they would deal with it, so I suggest we wait for twenty four hours, to see what, if anything, they do. I made some pretty pointed references to a couple of enthusiastic journalists I happen to know. You have to join the rotten site to access their report facilities, and I've yet to come across any dirct way of making contact. Watch this space. BTW, I was only too aware that none of the people being defamed by these clowns are actually BNP supporters, though we do know we have a couple on Mudcat. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:51 AM Don, Thanks.Let us know how you get on. Fred |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Amergin Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:43 AM I like to wipe my combat boots on fascists' faces.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:32 AM Right folks, pretty much as I expected, Bebo have reacted with speed, and the false identity of me has been removed, or to be more accurate, a search either by name or username comes back "No profile found under that name". However, of the other nine I reported, not one has been removed. It seems you have to report in person, and only members can do so. Call me a cynic if you will, but setting it up that way means nine more members for Bebo, who are competing with Farcebook and Shitter, among others. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM That leaves me with but one option. Join, complain, and leave immediately the complaint has been resolved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:33 PM Seems like a plan Fred, but the bad news is that another fake profile of me appeared mid afternoon, with just one letter altered, which allowed it to slide by them. I've demanded the blocking of the offender's ISP, but I'm not holding my breath. Nevertheless, if these shitheads think they've won, they'd better think again. I'm going nowhere, and I won't be silenced. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Ebbie Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM "I like to wipe my combat boots on fascists' faces.." Amergin Just for the record, 'gin, but that is an extraordinarily offensive sentiment. I understand that it's hyperbolic but... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:19 PM Thanks Ebbie. There are a good many here that seem to wish to outdo the Fascists. Tolerance does not mean that you accept anyone's political views but rather that you concentrate on the music which should have nothing to do with politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: mousethief Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM Some things are more important than music. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM But not if the poor fascist is just sitting there not bothering anyone just enjoying and sharing music. Out doing the fascists at their game you are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:53 PM not if the poor fascist is just sitting there not bothering anyone just enjoying and sharing music. They tend not to, tho: the extremes of politics [fascist/communist] (& for that matter of religion [XtnEvangelist/Islamist]) have always been among those who can never relax & "just" anything; but their onsessive agendas, and how they can make whatever they are doing relate to it, is ever-present in their minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:54 PM I meant 'obsessive agendas', of course, Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Amergin Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:03 PM "Out doing the fascists at their game you are." Wow....never thought Yoda was a fascist sympathiser.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: mousethief Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:21 PM Sorry, but me shutting down fascists and fascists killing Jews just don't compare. I'm not at their own game. Bzzzzt. Game over. You lose. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM ""But not if the poor fascist is just sitting there not bothering anyone just enjoying and sharing music. Out doing the fascists at their game you are."" Let's see if it is possible to drive an idea into that lump of bone between your ears, preferrably without having to apply it with a shotgun. The BNP are trying to take over the music, morris and country dance, and the significant dates such as St George's day, in an attempt to persuade the public that they are an acceptable political alternative for voters who want a return to "British Values". This image they are trying to project could not be further from their real agenda, which is the establishment of a Britain which will be more racist than South Africa in the apartheid days. In short, a Nazi regime. Your ideals of tolerance play perfectly into that agenda. You're not by any chance a descendant of Neville Chamberlain?....... Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:29 AM Don, absolutely. These people are not nice,they do not play by the normal rules of civilised behaviour, and they are not interested in polite intelligent discourse on matters political. In fact they are hell bent on turning this country into a totalitarian white dictatorship, a dictatorship which would eventually crush every last one of us. They do not deserve to be shown the degree of courtesy, tolerance and free speech, which I would normally extend to people whose views do not accord with mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:37 AM Anyone who remains unconvinced of what can happen when fascism is let loose should tune into BBC Radio 4 this coming Saturday night. The one to listen out for is the Archive on Four slot at 20-00 hours. This week's programme is called Hate Against Hope and it's about the racist attacks which far right groups made against London immigrants in the 19670s/80s. Here's the programme blurb. "Alan Dein hears how London's East End Bangladeshi community forged new alliances to oppose racism in the 1970s and 80s. "The East End had been a centre of racial struggle and opposition since the 1930s, when Oswald Mosely's Blackshirts had paraded through the then largely Jewish streets around Brick Lane. By the 1970s a new wave of predominantly Bangladeshi immigrants faced racism again from the National Front and its sympathisers. "As provocation and attacks increased, this community made new alliances with local anti-fascist activists, culminating in large-scale movements such as Rock Against Racism. Once again Brick Lane and the streets beyond became a battleground." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:40 AM If you run a folk venue or group and put up a sign "all those holding views that we do not like stay out" You are simply being intolerant. You hang that sign out by talking about politics in the group or event and by broadcasting a commonly held political position. You could do the same against alternative lifestyles, religions, economic classes. It would be the same thing. The end result would be that it would limit access to and support for the music and would make survival of the music more difficult in the long run. When you let an organization or the folk keep others out you are unnecessarirly making the survival of the music more difficult. If those you let in keep their hands and political views to themselves you can have a great group of people singing the songs and keeping traditions alive. Participation together can also ease tensions and even make conversion possible. Keeping people appart just because they do something else in other aspects of their lives and are able to keep those aspects of their lives out of the event or group activity is wrong. This does not mean that one has to give up one's hatred of a political view, religious view, or lifeway. It just means that you put those views away when meeting socially focusing on a common interest. Just take your politics out of the folk forum. It will better if you do so and that includes projecting your intolerance of well behaved peaceful people before they have a chance to come in. If a gathering of folkies projects any sort of political aura that is as big or bigger than the aura of the music they discourage others and keep the traditions from being preserved and expanded. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: theleveller Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:03 AM "It just means that you put those views away when meeting socially focusing on a common interest. Just take your politics out of the folk forum." Sorry, can't get the Folk Against Fascism stickers off my guitar cases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: frogprince Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM Peasant, do you really imagine a scenerio, either in the U.K. or the U.S., in which anyone stands at the door of a concert, or sing-around or open mike session, stops each person at the door, and asks them to spell out their political views? Nobody can read minds. If the person at the door identifies a fascist, it is because the individual has become known for visibly promoting fascism. Do you, honest to God, expect someone in charge to say "come on in; spew lyrics of venemous hatred and racism; use the opportunity to promote the idea that your values are in line with the finest deep traditions of our people. After you perform, we'll have a polite discussion on the esthetics of your melodies, and whether your lines scan." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM No but I have been at folk concerts and events where before during and at the end of sets performers and or organizers spew political rhetoric which no one came to hear and when that happens people who have opposing personal views that they keep to themselves dont want to be there and probably won't come back and probably will influence others to stay away. I would not mind at all if the politics was in the music. I just dont need the mini manefestos that come into introductions and closing remarks. We respect the views of organizers and performers but making their events and performers into what are perceived to be political rallys is not helpful or appropriate. They can do that at other types of events. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:59 PM ""If you run a folk venue or group and put up a sign "all those holding views that we do not like stay out""" God almighty, you are slow, aren't you. I do not ask the political views of attenders of any venue I run, and as long as they don't start trouble, all are welcome. What is being talked about here is the venues they are running, which would be dangerous places for non white music fans. We are talking about the St Georges day festivals which they are promoting to forward their racist message of a "White Britain". What we are talking about is their production company "Great White Records", which is stealing copyright material, and recording it to give the impression that they are supported by talented and well respected Folk Singers. You would like to be tolerant, and accept that? Go Ahead! But first take a look at their website, and get some vestige of an idea of what you are talking about. Then have a look at some of the links in other Mudcat threads, dealing with their criminal records, their attitude to black and Asian Brits, and pay particular attention to the views of one of their senior figures, on the subject of rape. Don T. |
