BS: Why you don't like gay marriage

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:28 PM

Oh, of course they are permitted to, Stilly, just as blacks, Native Americans, women, and everyone else is permitted to in a free society...and has the absolute right to. But there is a point when healthy self-assertion goes beyond the legitimate search for identity and equality into something decidedly nasty. I've seen it before and I'm seeing it now again. I have seen several groups of people whom I fervently supported move slowly from legitimate self-expression into obnoxious self-absorption. And they did it because they were so wrapped up in themselves that they started to feel morally superior to everyone who wasn't like them.

I saw it in the Native American political movement and it made me very, very sad, because I believed so much in what that culture stood for. It was awful seeing it taken over by fanatical, arrogant cranks with a chip on their shoulder who thought the ground was blessed just by them walking on it. They had reached the point where if you weren't Native...well, you were inferior. Nasty.

It was a violation of the very ideals they claimed to stand for...and they did not represent the majority of Native people...but boy did they get air time!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:31 PM

Little Hawk...not for the first time Im touched by your understanding.

Although I dont know who you are, I think you must have overcome many obstacles in your journey,to gain the depth and vision that you possess
One of the good things about Mudcat,is learning from people like you
    Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:33 PM

Ake's views are identical to the people who hated "uppity blacks" in the 60s because they were trying to get equal rights. The same with the anti-feminists in the 70s.

Archie Bunker used to represent that point of view. He liked everyone regardless of race, sex, creed, religion, etc. AS LONG AS they either act as much like him as possible, or stay as invisible as possible. That attitude should never be tolerated.

I'm not trying to shut him up.

I have every right to tell him what I think of him.

His views are merely a "kinder and gentler" version of bigotry. I will not sit still and say nothing with those kinds of attitudes being stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:46 PM

Blackcatter...You are completely wrong and Little Hawk is completely correct in the analysis of my position.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about perception...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:54 PM

Okay, that's your impression, Blackcatter, but you may be mistaken about his motives.

I don't mind "uppity blacks, uppity women, or uppity Native Americans" if "uppity" means...seeking equality. (And I believe that's what it usually does mean, when people call someone by the word uppity.)

By, by God, I mind hate-filled, holier-than-thou fanatics with a "victim" complex, no matter what cause they are blathering on about. They are painful to be around. They're like a musical instrument that is only capable of sounding one sour note, but very loudly. The Nazis were such a group in their time, and it didn't get them into a very good place in the end, did it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:57 PM

Blackcatter...I had a quiet smile at your statment equating me with "uppity black" haters in the sixties.

Perhaps I could tell a little story to show my real position.

Iv four boys (now men), whom I taught to respect people of all creeds and colours, and although surrounded by religious bigotry here in Scotland, they grew up fine people,and Im very proud of them.

During the 60s I joined the YCL and was involved in the UK civil rights issues.
I explained all about the civil rights movement and its heros and heroines to my oldest son Bruce and he seemed to develope more than a casual interest in Black equality.
After leaving school Bruce moved to work in a poor area of London , with a large black population. He had only been there a few weeks, when he wrote home complaining that he had been mislead. The blacks in London were as vicious and arrogant as the whites in America had been in the 60s. They would not speak other than to abuse,used their colour as a sign of superiority, and he was even spat upon in the street for being white,exactly the condition Little Hawk describes so well in his post,roles reversed,a different kind of hatred but just as corrosive.
Bruce got over his experience but idealism has now been replaced with a cynicism more suited to "us oldies".

This role reversal is what I dislike about the Gay Movement its now at the stage of Gay being Good and any other opinion a perversion...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 08:57 PM

This issue causes some emotional responses, and I hope no one gets past the point of being able to kiss/shake hands and make up. The slope there is steep, but the road back is a sonuvabitch. Been there and done that.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Wondering
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:22 PM

brucie, can the gay people kiss and make up too, or is that just for the straights? Or can a gay man kiss and make up with a straight man? Won't that make the straight man gay? of if the straight man is cute, will it make the gay man straight? Wow, this gets complicated!

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:27 PM

GUEST,Wondering: Absolutely. I have no idea what you said, but if it has to do with kissing, I'm all for it. Have you met Esmeralda?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:48 PM

Martin, just wondering, how would you feel if one of your kids were gay?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:58 PM

OK - give us examples of what you mean when it comes to gay people.

How exactly have you been bothered by gay people or gay culture?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:30 AM

Silly River

Is fag spelled with 1 G or two

fag or fagg?

Your such an expert on the subject. Maybe you are one. I better not turn my back on you.

I am also sick of homosexuals flaunting themselves all over the place. Here in Chicago there is a big annual gay pride parade where a group of people try to stick it all in everyone's face. All straight people run for cover so they are sure that the news cameras don't catch them anywhere near it. It's hilarious how the politicians march in this parade smiling and waving and sucking up to this way too exposed special interest group.

I agree with Little Hawk. If guys like to butt fuck other guys, be my guest, but please take your "pride" in this and don't wave and smile at me about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:36 AM

Little Hawk,
The reason that the gay folks like to have gay pride events, and why no one seems to think it is important for others to have pride events, is that gay people are perhaps the last class of people being legally descriminated against in the US (and in Canada, too, I think, although you folks seem to be getting the picture a bit quicker than we are).

I am vocal in my opinion that it is bigotry to deny legal rights to gay people if the same rights are given to others. I am not gay, I am not part of any gay organization, I am not particularly strident, and the only agenda I have is that there is a class of people being descriminated against for no good reason. And, as I said when I started this discusssion, most of the reasons that are given don't stand up to even cursory examination. I notice that none of the anti-gay rights folks who have taken part in this conversation have responded to any of those points.

I think it was Ghandi who said something like, "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Well, gays were ignored for a long time. Then they were the stuff of bad jokes. Now the bigots are fighting them. Guess what happens next?

Here's an idea: maybe it's not the radical gay lobby that is doing the fighting. Maybe it's the crowd that keeps yelling about stopping the activist judges from legislating from the bench. Maybe the gay folks just want to be treated like everyone else, and all the fighting is being done by the bigots. No, I don't really beleive that, but the point is that if their civil rights weren't being trod on they wouldn't have to be fighting for them.

Another reason it makes a difference to me even though I'm not gay is that the current laws of our country force me, if I want to stay married to my wife, to be part of a priveledged class that enjoys legal benefits which are denied to those around me. I resent that. There is a list somewhere of more than 1000 advantages that are given to married couples by the United States government that non-married couples can't have. And that's just the federal government. The list gets a lot longer if you start adding in state, county, and city governments. The question you might ask is why SHOULDN'T they fight against that sort of descrimination?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:41 AM

A friend of mine in New York wrote a few weeks ago to say a friend of his was murdered. My friend and his friend are both gay. He said that he is amazed that the police are actually investigating this murder (the guy was stabbed and bludgeoned in his own apartment). They never used to bother, or even pretend to bother about murders of gay men in New York City. Hate crimes happen all-too-freely in an environment like that. It requires a strident response from the community involved, and if the pendulum swings a bit close to your face, that's something you have to deal with. Same with activist Indians. People are talking about Hiroshima and Nagasaki on another thread--you want to see murder and genocide? You take a look at the policies of the American government and before that of the colonial powers in the first 500 years of colonial occupation of this North American continent. Many millions died through various means. Amherst and his smallpox blankets, Andrew Jackson and his death marches, those are only a drop in the bucket.

You'd best not pooh-pooh those noisy groups unless you are on incredibly firm footing yourself and are experiencing no personal benefit yourself from policies enacted to benefit earlier white and straight generations. People who live in glass houses, and all that.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:43 AM

Akenaton's posts speak for themselves--unfortunately, he doesn't seem to realize what they say--

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:13 AM

Martin Gibson, if the best you can do is call people names, why are you bothering to post to this thread? You only confirm what people have already assume about you--best stay silent and at least keep them guessing. And if it makes you feel better, you can keep up your "silly" reading of my moniker, but "Stilly" is short for "Stillaguamish," and there is a T in it.

Silence is golden, so shut up and get rich.
SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:24 AM

Wow don't you people get uptight about the strangest things?

London like many cities has a great gay festival annually. Called THE Respect festival.....it is hugely attended by folks of varying persuasion, a great family day out.Trouble free and a real mardi gras atmosphere.

What are you scared of? Don't you like a party?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:46 AM

Urghhhhhhhhh actually called Pride festival, my mistake. Respect is the anti racism one. So many parties and so little time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:58 AM

See, I'm still listening after all!

When making bigotted remarks you will look a bit less ignorant if you spell the insult correctly.

SRS

"Bigotted"??? Interesting. This post speaks for itself too.   :-)

Here's a little scenario for everyone's delectation and delight ... last night I was sitting with 5 friends after dinner, thinking about this discussion.   I decided to pop the question "Do you think gay couples should be allowed to adopt children?"

I got 4 no's, and 1 yes. The "yes" person backed up her view with "Why not? They might turn out a little screwed up, but everybody's got psychological problems anyway."

Then one of the "no" people qualified her statement by saying if gay couples can figure out a way to produce thier own kids, fine and dandy. But they should not be allowed to adopt other people's. And then she told us about one of the ladies's baseball teams in her league.

Apparently everyone on this one particular team is a lesbian. The first baseman and the pitcher got married last Christmas, and now the first baseman is 4 months pregnant. How, you ask?

Well, apparently the pitcher's brother was happy to "fill in the gap" for them.

There was dead silence around the table for a minute or so. While everyone was retrieving their jaws from the floor, someone piped up with a tentative "Are they ALLOWED to do that???"

And the mumbled reply ..."I guess so. Who's gonna stop them?" Dead silence again, change of subject. *Whew*!

I went home with visions of not two but now THREE people battling in front of some hapless harried judge in a year or so, trying to figure out custody and support for that helpless babe. This may be a tad pessimistic, but hey, here's some facts to back it up ....

Ontario was the first place in North America to legalize gay marriages. And the first gay couple to get married here under the new law applied for divorce less than a year later.

Just some more food for thought.

Ake, I think your posts make the most sense of anyone's here, and what you've said about LH is right on the mark too.   Keep it up!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:18 AM

Little Hawk, my comments were not based on what Ackenaton thought about gay extremists, but about his, and dalia's thoughts that people with a different sexual orientation are ill, or emotionally unsound, or "carrying a burden" or in any way more or less screwed up than the rest of us. (No MG I'm not a lesbian).

This is a reason used by many to keep gay men and women out of being equals in society. I do not agree with it, and as I said, from my experience, and reading find they, as a group, are no more or less "burdened" than the rest of us, except in as they are treated.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:37 AM

Ellenpoly, when did I ever say that "people with a different sexual orentation are ill, or emtionally unsound, or "carrying a burden"? If you want to quote me, how about using the cut and paste feature on your browser, to avoid confusion?

What I did say was that very few of the many homosexual or bisexual kids and adults I've known or had personal dealings with over the years are what I consider to be physically, socially, or emotionally "healthy" or even "coping quite well". Unfortunately, that IS the painful truth.

One more first-hand observation -- the male homosexuals I've known seem to be much worse off than the females. I think this is because lesbians are more acceptable, considered to be more "desirable" in this culture - perhaps because portraying lesbians "doing their thing" is and has been very profitable for the (male) "kings" of the porn industry for quite some time now?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:01 AM

Those were mostly taken from what Akenaton said, daylia, sorry.

But it seems pretty obvious that you also think of homosexuality as a problem for the people who are that way oriented.

I don't disagree that children who experience their sexuality, especially in the beginning of adolescence, often have difficulties, but that stands true for most kids. Do children who find themselves attracted to their own gender have more difficulites? Most likely many of them do. They live in a society that often rejects them for this in very brutal ways.

Will that then affect them emotionally? Well yes, in many instances it will. Some can be scarred for life.

My objection to what I think you and akenaton are saying is that their gender preference causes the problems internally. I think it is the external problems in the guise of those who oppose, often with tremendous anger and violence-people who are different...and NOT just sexually different.

We are beleaguered as a society with having to constantly create "us and them" mentalities. The "them" are often ostracised and belittled. It's a way of making the tribe feel stronger and safer.

But it's not a tribe I am proud to be a part of.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:39 AM

daylia,
I'm glad you're still with us. I'm sorry I accused you earlier of being against gay marriage. You never actually said that. You do seem to be saying, however, that gay folks shouldn't be allowed to raise kids. So, the message I get from you is that they should be able to get married, but we shouldn't let them have families. How terribly white of you.

And you still haven't said anything about why we let hetero child abusers have kids. If you really think that having kids means the gay parents are putting the children at risk, you could at least be in favor of equal rights for all risk-causing parents.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:16 AM

Ake, you wrote:
This role reversal is what I dislike about the Gay Movement its now at the stage of Gay being Good and any other opinion a perversion.

I don't really see gay people saying gay is good or bad. They are mostly saying "give us our civil rights." And, "any other position is bigotry." OK, I often say that anti-gay folks are perverted. You seem to have an unhealthy interest in other people's sex lives. Yes, that's a perversion in my book.

Im no right winger ,nor am I a bigot,but to my mind, many of these unfortunate people are battling, not "Straight society", but their own psychological problems.
I very much agree with Daylai.   We need to find out a lot more about this condition ,before entrusting children to unstable people.

No one who has actually studied the issue (like the entire mainstream medical and psychological establishment) has beleieved for many years that homosexuality is a condition or an unstability. Perhaps it would be good for you to learn something about it before you claim to be not bigoted.

Iv four boys (now men), whom I taught to respect people of all creeds and colours, and although surrounded by religious bigotry here in Scotland, they grew up fine people,and Im very proud of them.

Try this: everytime you think "gay", substitute the word "black" or "woman" or "Arab" in whatever your sentence was and you might start to understand why folks are calling you a bigot.

The blacks in London were as vicious and arrogant as the whites in America had been in the 60s.

Really? All of them? Every last one? Are you sure you're not bigoted against them as well?

They would not speak other than to abuse,used their colour as a sign of superiority, and he was even spat upon in the street for being white,exactly the condition Little Hawk describes so well in his post,roles reversed,a different kind of hatred but just as corrosive.
Bruce got over his experience but idealism has now been replaced with a cynicism more suited to "us oldies".

Of course there are going to be people who, after being societally abused for so many years, are going to fight fire with fire. Do you really think they represent the vast majority of gay folks, or black folks, or women, or whatever group you're talking about at the moment? Don't you know that generalizing from the individual to the group as a whole is one of the hallmarks of bigotry? Are you blaming all gay people -- and saying they should be legally kept down -- because there are gay activists who are also jerks?

Anyone who says he is not a bigot and has helped his children overcome the bigotry that surrounded them as they grew up has to have spent some real time doing some deep soul searching in order to have escaped that bigotry himself. I urge you engage in that process on the subject of gay people. Please don't assume you know what they are or what they want, and really don't assume you know what's best for them. Try to put yourself in their shoes and imagine what it would feel like to have been born gay in our society. Try to imagine what it would feel like if there were laws against you raising your sons.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:27 AM

It is natural for liberal-minded people to support people who are seeking equal rights. Accordingly, I and many other liberal-minded people have in our time supported women, Native Americans, blacks, gays, and various visible minorities in their search for equality.

That is clear.

However, I note another phenomenon which is not so clear. When members of a discriminated-against minority themselves become discriminatory toward others...as I have seen happen on many occasions...when they become totally unreasonable, due to a "victimization" complex that is exaggerated way beyond the realities they are dealing with...and I have seen that too...

Do we then support them in their bigotry? I don't.

I am not accusing gays in general of such bigotry. However, I am saying that the media nowadays are being manipulated by certain rather odd individuals who are obsessed with gay-related issues to a point which suggests to me that they are in the grip of a serious psychological illness. And I do not support this cockeyed approach to life. It's unreasonable.

To just have a standard rote opinion on any issue is a robotic sort of behaviour. You have to look at each individual situation on its own merits. Meaning: a black person is not ALWAYS a victim, just because he is black. A Native American is not ALWAYS a spiritual giant just because he is Native. A woman is not ALWAYS a victim just because she is female. A gay person is not ALWAYS a victim just because he/she is gay.

Some women are petty tyrants in relationship. Some blacks are virulent racists against whites (or someone else). Some Natives are arrogant pricks. Some gays are manipulative jerks.

You know why? They're just like other people!!! What a surprise. :-)

So when you leap to defend every issue connected to some special interest group just because you have decided that a "liberal" person would support that special interest group...maybe you are not really thinking about the matter very clearly at all...but just indulging in political correctness.

I still support gays in a general sense, by the way, as I still support blacks, women, Native Americans, etc., but I judge each circumstance on its own merits.

I really have no strong opinion on whether or not gays should raise children. I suppose it would mainly depend on the individual circumstances, which could vary tremendously.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:01 AM

Little Hawk,
Uh, duh . . . most of what you say in your last post seems staggeringly self-evident. I have to admit that one of my hot spots is people who ought to know better displaying bigotry, so I get a bit of a warm fuzzy when I see other people complain about it too. Of course there are gay activist jerks, just like there are racially bigoted black activists and sexist feminists. How not? But I must admit that I'm having some trouble seeing the relevence of your observations to the present conversation.

Do you really think that anyone in this discussion has leaped to defend every issue connected to a special interest group just because they have decided that a liberal person would do so? I haven't seen that happening. Could you be more specific, or else refrain from throwing such vague comments around?

Your last paragraph starts: I really have no strong opinion on whether or not gays should raise children. Do you have an opinion about whether or not they should be legally barred from raising children? That would be a little more to the point.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

Concerns about children of same-sex couples being bullied by other kids will matter less and less. In general younger people care less about sexual orientation, and the issues at hand are probably just a matter of time.

People have Pride events because they feel the need to, having a norm preached at them constantly in ways us breeders don't notice as much. Most likely it will die off as the need does.

I don't have many particular feelings about gays--maybe a few. Many seem to harbor resentment against bi-s. One told me bi-sexuals hurt twice as many people in relationships--as if they are working a double shift. What else, okay; I don't share the goof-ball male patronization of lesbians, lesbians aren't sexy to me, but like sensible shoes, or Estee Lauder models--cute but not erotic. For me the core of feminine mystique is the mystery of why they like dudes. If they don't, they seem sensible. I suspect many lesbians aren't gay at all, merely sane. My problem with "Pride" and "prevailing gay culture" is aesthetic--it's illustational in that Sunday-school sort of way, whatever it's about or who it's for.

The thing that put me off Akenaton's remarks wasn't so much his opinion but his facile implication that everyone who disagrees is part of a group mind, like no one else has a real opinion. That's a low rude childish thing guys do, and it deserves what it gets.

Also, I wonder if straights are straight because of a domineering father and a weak mother. Not really. I don't really care.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

The problem is, we get into "should" and "shouldn't" and base our arguments on stereotypes. "The world is a bad place, and children will get discriminated against." Unfortunately, the stereotype here is of the world in general, not of gays.

They should have the right to marry and to raise kids. Whether or not a specific couple should is not an issue for people who are discussing a specific couple. Rights aren't granted to specific individuals, they're granted to everybody.

As to protecting children...
Some communities would be better than others for a child of gay parents to grow up in. Some people are better than others at being nice. If certain people are denied the same rights as others based on solely on potential (or even probable) misbehavior by people outside that group, it's just passive discrimination. It's punishing the victim for what they might be victimized for.

Parents usually want to protect their kids. People who care about them want to protect them. We don't live in a perfect world, though. Kids have to learn how to walk, even though they may fall. Kids have to learn how to deal with bullies and potential kidnappers, molesters, peers who do drugs or get into trouble...any number of things. Kids have to learn to take a stand for what they believe in. Some will be hurt in the process, others will go on to do great things, and I think the difference, many times, can be how valid their stand is in the eyes of society. If society makes a law saying "You are in the right," it's a start in helping a kid deal with bigots.

The rights come first.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:03 PM

The producers of two-way dildos would like to thank all lesbians for their on-going support of their products.

But Wal-Mart still will not carry the line, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:25 PM

So, Daylia, you want to review the spelling rules in the English language? Check your dictionary and you'll find under words and their modifications the option to leave a final consonant single or doubling it when adding "ed" or "ing" because the vowel "e" or "i" can change the pronuciation of the previous vowel. The mnemonic device for the rule is that when the letters is a word are arranged vowel--consonant--vowel the second vowel after the one consonant interval makes the first one "say it's own name." This produces a long vowel sound, which may not in fact be how it is supposed to be pronounced in that word. Doubling the consonant at the end before adding "ed" or "ing" prevents any ambiguity in pronunciation. Hence, traveling or travelling, etc. In this case, bigoted or bigotted works. As in the sentence "Daylia had some bigotted friends over for dinner the other night."

I'm not surprised that you can pull together a group of people who reach the same conclusions you do regarding civil rights, the rights to privacy, and the normal human activity of wanting to have and raise a family. Water seeks its own level. Your reporting of the bizarre twist in the conversation speaks volumes regarding your own conflicted argument, when you imply that you consider it 1. unnatural for lesbians to want to have children but also that 2. having heterosexual sex (with the pitcher's brother) to have children, if they're lesbian, is even more abnormal. Geez!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM

Martin Gibson you seem awfully conversant with the comings and goings of the gay and lesbian lifestyle. Rather than Walmart, why don't you try Good Vibes for your dildo needs?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

No, John, I do not think gays should be legally barred from raising children. I should think that would have been staggeringly obvious. :-)

I think that a knee-jerk approach to always supporting a given side in some common social issue without any real forethought or investigation into the individual circumstances has become a prevailing social illness on the part of both liberals AND conservatives AND the media. That's why I'm drawing attention to it.

It's called "judging the book by its cover". Not much use if you can't be bothered to read the book.

Liberals are just as guilty of it as conservatives. I am what would generally be termed liberal...or perhaps radical-liberal...but I do not let other liberals get away easily with lazy thinking when they indulge in it. And boy, do they ever! They'd rather sound right than actually be right.

Stilly, are you feuding with daylia again? Tsk, tsk. I am going to have to see if I can arrange a weekend for four in Barbados for you, daylia, Martin Gibson, and Jack the Sailor...and then film it for Reality TV. Or maybe get you all on the Jerry Springer show or something like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:45 PM

Don't go to "Good Vibes", Martin. They discriminate against goats.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:46 PM

The makers of strap-on dildoes would like to thank Martin Gibson's wife for her recent purchase of the "Black Anaconda." Martin Gibson would thank them himself, but he's tied up and ball-gagged at the moment. Enjoy, Martin!

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:58 PM

There are relatively few things I think people should be legally barred from. Let's see...

Murder, assault, theft, property destruction, other wanton acts of violence, pre-emptive war, wanton ecological destruction (uh-oh...), fraud, false advertising (oops! There goes a whole bunch of ads), lying in court or while in public office (yikes! there go most of our politicians), certain diving infractions or other reckless use of equipment in a public area, certain public acts of what would be termed "gross indecency" (this is a tricky area, partially dependent upon social customs...figure it out for yourself), knowingly selling harmful substances to people (arrgh! there goes a whole big piece of the food industry, plus the tobacco industry, and so on), medical quackery (there goes half of the normal activities of the AMA!)....and...um...

Hmmm. It is a complicated subject, isn't it? Nothing in there about gays, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:04 PM

Guest, you don't intimidate me with your cowardice. You are just a liar and plain uncomfortable with how I feel so you thin that you harm me by bringing my loving wife into the picture. go rotate on your dildo.

The only thing that interest me about the gay and lesbian lifestyle is how it has impacted aids and other types of cooties in the world. I am also glad my kids are not gay and I feel sorry for parents whose children are and who have had their dreams of having traditional (notice I did not say normal) children dashed. I do feel that gays do have rights as other, short of marriage. Little Hawk is right though that many are just too hostile and bigoted in their own reverse way.

Again, I will reiterate that if a guy likes to suck off another guy, that's fine with me, but don't flaunt your lifestyle at me. And wipe that giz off of your chin, please. OK Silly?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:17 PM

Hey, Little Hawk,

I noticed that we had very similar beliefs according to the quiz on the Religions thread. Doesn't surprise me. However, does that mean we gotta go to India now? Just wondering.

Guest: You want to go at it with Martin, he's a big boy and more than able to take care of himself. However, his wife doesn't deserve to get the shit you are tossing around. Stop it. Don't be an ass. You're pissed at Martin, duke it out with Martin. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:53 PM

He can't, Brucie. thanks for the support. He knows he is no match for me.

You just know that this "Guest" is a regular poster who has testicles the size of sesame seeds. The very fact that he has to insult me (or my wife) incognito is very satisfying to know because his character is so diminutive and that he has no guts. I love that I drive him to what he does, actually and that is to squirm his way into a shameful nobody.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:29 PM

Actually, for guest I suspect MG was the target, not MG's wife. If MG's wife is buying a strapon, then MG is getting fucked, no? Or "fudgepacking" as he himself put it.

Maybe guest should have said "MG's favorite whore" or something.

Yo, you listening, guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:05 PM

The gay couple I mentioned above who adopted the two boys have made a point of hiring woman baby sitters, and, in general, make sure that the boys have lots of contact with women and girls. They believe (as many authorities do) that sexual orientation is in-born, and that the sexual orientation of the two boys they adopted is already set. Statistically there is a very high probability that the boys will be heterosexually oriented, but that may not become evident until they reach puberty. In any case, I would say that this couple is doing a pretty good job of raising the kids. I see them every week or so, and they seem like—just kids, happy and rambunctious like two boys their ages ought to be. If they do have problems in the future, I'm quite sure it will have less to do with their family upbringing than it will with external factors, such as encountering bigots and bullies. But I'm sure their two fathers will be up to guiding the kids well when and if that happens. After all, they've had some experience with this sort of thing themselves.

Welcome back from your vacation, Marty. How were things back in the Dumpster? By the way, the adults are talking here, so why don't you go sit in the corner, think about gays and Lesbians, and play with your winkie?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

John P...My view of how the world should be, is a hundred times more radical than the sexual activities of what is still a very small minority of its inhabitants,so please dont patronise me.

Little Hawk summarised my position very well, and no amount of double speak from you or any of the other twisted people on this thread will smear me with bigotry.

I am thoroughly at ease with my position on most matters, and always think things out carefully before expressing my opinions.

I know that everyone wont get my meaning, but it pleases me that some of the most intelligent and sensitive people on Mudcat have supported me ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM

Yay! The California supremem court just struck down all of the gay marriages and made them void. this movement has now had the setback it deserves.

Time to give back all of those blenders and china sets you got as gifts, not to mention the 2 way dildos and hamsters. This was done by a 5-2 vote because it was ILLEGAL! why is it illegal? Because a majority of people want it this way.

You are in a minority if you do not support the supreme court of California's decision.

Don, I feel sorry for the two boys being raised by the gay couple friends of yours. Hope they don't walk into a fudgepacking session accidently one day. All of the female baby sitting and and exposure to female relationships will be wiped out by that, not to mention what they will think when they are old enough and realize daddy and daddy have a thing for each other's behind. It's a shame for those kids. And adults don't call it a "winkie" Kids do, and so do people to embarrased with sex and their own anatomy to call it what it is. Or at least call it one of it's true adult slang names.

I'm glad I'm back. Had a fine vacation in a wonderful resort town I've been going to all my life. Life couldn't be better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:23 PM

Martin Gibson, you've made it clear that you know a lot of offensive hot-button terms to slather over the thread as it degenerates into a flame war.

You don't contribute anything useful, you're trolling and relishing the angry responses as part of a personal power struggle, to see if you can pervert the substantive discussion to your lowest common denominator of name calling and verbal blows. Between your adolescent approach to human sexuality and daylia's smug pronouncements based on flimsy evidence and no critical thought, you are perfect candidates for Little Hawk's proposed trip to the Jerry Springer Show. But Little Hawk will have to count this woman out of that trip--invite akenatan instead, so it will truly be a panel of your peers. You don't want sound reasoning, you want a shit-slinging brawl.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

Silly

Pull your shorts out of your crack.   

There are people who are perfectly reasonable who just don't think like you. Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! He's trolling because he doesn't think like me. Wahhhhhhhhhhh! Deal with it. Like other left-wing lug nuts here your little Utopia is in your own mind. As Dr. Phil would say, Get Real.

Yes, I and others in this country whether we are liberals or conservatives are glad this was struck down. go write a protest song over it or something to unbunch your shorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:56 PM

I rest my case. Don't ever try to defend yourself in court, Martin Gibson, you'll have a fool for a client.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

Joke's on you, silly

I just might be a successful attorney in my real life. consider the very real possiblity of that. Witness like you are the eptome of the word heresay.

You have no case to rest.
cuff him, baliff.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:50 PM

Marty, the only case you're familiar with is your daily case of beer.

I used the term "winkie" because I was addressing your level of intellect and maturity. I note that you readily grasped what I was talking about, which proves I was right in my choice of words.

Have a nice day.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:36 PM

I thought it said "all men are created equal" not all men except Gays, blacks or whoever bigots want to target next. Since when did sexual orientation override your rights as an American citizen? That is the fundamental point of this whole issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:00 PM

Actually, it should say "All humans are created equal", but that was a different time with different sensibilities. The burning issue of the day in 1776 was whether society should be governed by hereditary monarchies or by a more representative form of government. Those who favoured the latter were looked at aghast in most places, the same way Communists were later in the 1930's.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:33 PM

Martin Gibson-
I suspect that you're too young to remember Westbrook Pegler's first article, which started"..As a member of the lyncg mob in good dtanding,," By his--and apparently your--standards, there's nothing more democratic than a lynching--obviously the majority has ruled.