BS: Why you don't like gay marriage

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM

Stilly River Sage is disposed toward grossly exaggerating the worth and importance of her opinions in an overbearing and offensive manner.

No, I did not have my friends over for dinner last night, Stilly - and yes, my friends and I are just as bigoted as you or I or anyone else.

Oh, and did I forget to mention that I don't think Gay adoption is wise for at least a few years yet?   Sorry if that makes me such a bigot.

Guess I'll just have to live with it!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:27 PM

Oh, and did I also forget to mention (again) that I personally would "NEVER ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE!" choose to be adopted (or otherwise produced) by a homosexual couple in this oh-so-kindly-and-enlightened (NOT!) age?

Just want to make sure everyone is clear on what an ill-versed, perverse, sloppy-thinking and undoubtedly homophobic bigot I really am. That way no one will be tempted to grossly exaggerate the worth or importance of my personal opinions. ;-)

It might be interesting to take a poll and find out how many posters WOULD choose to be adopted by a homosexual couple, though! And it's even more interesting that I've yet to see an answer (except my own) to my question above.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:09 AM

Don You are obviously an old queen. And I don't drink as I have stated before, except an occasional glass of sweet wine while I cook dinner for the family on Sundays. So you, as usual only know from whence you defecate. Your insults are as lame as the rest of your feeble writing.

Dick Greenhouse or however you spell your name, I am 54 years old and remember plenty. Some have speculated I have a photographic memory. However I never heard of Westbrook Pegler. Obviously, he did not teach you how to spell very well in his influence on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:34 AM

Would this be a bad time for a joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:04 AM

It's never a bad time for a goat...sorry! I meant, for a joke. Really, I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:12 AM

It would probably be an excellent time for a joke, Brucie.

Since this is a list on which the participation is, if not mature, at least well above legal age, it is non sequitur, or moot, to discuss any of our chosing to be adopted by ANYONE, gay or straight. This flame war is rapidly spiraling downward from idiotic to absurd.

Dick, that was a good call. Here's some background:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096673/

Here's an extract from Slate regarding an article about Pegler written by Wm. F. Buckley, Jr. in the March 1, 2004 New Yorker

Pegler's career took off in 1933 when he became a nationally syndicated columnist with Scripps-Howard, roared along under the Hearst family, and ended 30 years later under the auspices of a twitchy sect of neo-Nazis and professional racists from the White Citizens Council and the Rev. Billy James Hargis' truly reptilian Christian Crusade. At his peak in the 1930s and 1940s, Pegler was a leading popularizer of one of the most concerted antidemocratic crusades in this country's history: the vicious backlash against the New Deal and the labor movement to which it gave legal protection. This anti-Roosevelt front included the country's major industrialists, anti-Semitic, red-baiting pamphleteers, Congressman Martin Dies' Committee on Un-American Activities, and an assortment of Depression-era demagogues (and men on horseback who conspired with Hitler's agents in this country).

Although Pegler did not turn against Roosevelt until the president's second term, he quickly became a shrill cheerleader for the right's campaign to paint the New Deal's democratic advances as an internationalist Communist plot. Pegler compared union advocates of the closed shop to Hitler's "goose-steppers." (In his view, the greatest threat to the country was the corrupt labor boss; his exposé of a union official's mob connections earned him a Pulitzer in 1941.) By the 1950s, however, Pegler was showing some nostalgia for the Third Reich. His proposal for "smashing" the AF of L and the CIO was for the state to take them over. "Yes, that would be fascism," he wrote. "But I, who detest fascism, see advantages in such fascism."

and

Westbrook Pegler, "The Lynching Story"
http://www.geocities.com/westbrook_pegler/Lynching.htm this link goes to a story Pegler wrote about lynchings in California.

"I claim authority to speak for the rabble because I am a member of the rabble in good standing".

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:13 AM

Martin old bean,

you're on thin ice on the spelling thing, man.

"to embarrassed?"
"Witness like you are the eptome of the word heresay?"
"Baliff?"
"Supremem Court?"

If you are a successful attorney, I'm betting you have a secretary who does your correspondence!

I disagree with you on most of this stuff, as you can tell from my previous posts. But I do agree with you on one thing. The mayor marrying those people was illegal. It was legislating by executive order. I don't like it when Bush does it, so I would be hypocritical to support it when a mayor does.

I do support gays having the right to marry, but I think the SF mayor was grandstanding, jealous that somewhere else in the country might have the first gay marriages, and decided to jump the gun. He, the city, and the gay people he married were ill-served.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:51 AM

I'll happily take up your question, daylia.

Would I be adopted by a homosexual couple?

Are they kind and loving?

Do they respect each other?

Are they supportive and affectionate?

Will they encourage me to live my life with love and respect for all things on earth and beyond?

Then I'd feel privileged to be adopted by ANY couple like that.

Wouldn't you?



..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: el ted
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:15 AM

Would I be adopted by a homosexual couple? NO CHANCE!

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:29 AM

To answer your question, Ellenpoly, absolutely not. There's many more social and developmental variables at work here than simply whether or not homosexual parents might turn out to be kind, respectful, loving etc. I don't think it's necessary to relist those variables here.

Stilly, it is not "moot" to encourage people to think for themselves, to empathize with the powerless and vulnerable, to stop their arguing and politically correct (or incorrect) opinionizing and explore honestly --- just for one moment --- how it might actually feel to walk a mile (or a lifetime) in the moccasins of a helpless child artificially produced by or otherwise "donated" to a homosexual couple.   

I do attempt to "do unto others as I'd have them do unto me". I would NOT want that "done unto me". Therefore I choose not to do it to anyone else, or advocate it in any way, shape or form.

Thanks for answering the question, people. Please keep it up! So far we have two "no's" and one "yes". (You did mean "yes", right Ellenpoly?)

Just to make it easier for any newcomers to this thread to find the question, here it is again, freshly cut and pasted from my Aug 4 6:39 am post above ....

... I ask you sincerely, would you personally want to be adopted by a homosexual couple as a helpless babe, to face a lifetime of pervasive social ostracism and potential violence? As for me, NOT ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE !!!

daylia


PS Don't worry, you won't be flamed or insulted or called a "bigot" (and worse) if you vote "yes" or express a different feeling/point of view than my own. At least by me.

I'll leave that kind of behavior to the seasoned, on-site experts.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:52 AM

daylia, I stand by my answer.

I have witnessed children and adults who have had to deal with horrific family lives.

I've also seen people ostracized and penalized for myriad reasons.

The former I'm thinking of, all came from so-called "normal parents (ie-male/female).

And the latter all survived because they came from homes of parents, be they normal or gay, that offered them the kind of skills to cope with people's ignorance, bigotry, and abuse, and come out of it stronger and in most cases, more loving towards their fellow humans.

It's about giving children what they need, and there are no gender specifications for this, in my opinion.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:54 AM

To answer that question - yes I would.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:16 AM

Why Jenny, Ellenpoly I'm disgusted! What addleminded misguided simpletons you must be! ;-)

I'm KIDDING, ok?

Ellenpoly, you do make some very persuasive points that I respect very much. I got distracted and neglected to mention before that I agree wholeheartedly with what you said near the beginning of this thread ...

I think personally that children raised in the "nuclear family", whether it be two women or two men, or a woman and man, are taking on a heavy load not really meant for just a couple. We'd all be infinitely healthier back in tribal groups.

I raised 3 sons mostly on my own. It was no picnic. I know gay-bashing and other forms of bigotry only too well. My kids learned it in the schoolyard, inflicted it on each other (and on me) for years. It took YEARS to rid them of it. Actually, I probably didn't "rid them of it" at all, much as I disciplined and lectured and sanctioned it every day of their lives ... I think they just grew out of it all on their own, thank God/dess.

My youngest son, 22 now, just told me he thinks it's ok for gay people to adopt kids. *gasp* Oh NO, I must've really FAILED as a mother ... methinks I better disown him ...

;-) actually, I'm very proud of him. He's come a long way, baby!


daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:21 AM

Oh shoot, I messed up the html tags above. Ellenpoly's statement was simply I think personally that children raised in the "nuclear family", whether it be two women or two men, or a woman and man, are taking on a heavy load not really meant for just a couple. We'd all be infinitely healthier back in tribal groups.

The rest of the above post is my own.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:59 AM

I understood that, daylia, and I think your son proves my own views perhaps better to you than I ever could!

PS-Don't disown him, learn from him. ;-)


..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:12 AM

Well Ellenpoly, he learned a lot from me so it's only fair! Please be assured I'm listening to you, and to him. When I asked him why, he echoed the girl over at my buddy's place the other night ... "Well a lot of kids get screwed up somehow anyway, so what's the difference?"

That is a point, but it's not the most important factor. To me, it's pretty much the same thing as saying "Well a lot of people drown anyway, so go right ahead and throw those helpless babes into the deep end of the pool. We can scientifically study what happens, and find out (in a decade or several) if we made the wisest decision."

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:17 AM

Yeah, my spelling sucked, too.

SRS, Fuck this Pegler and fascism in this thread. Total blah, blah, blah.

I went back and re-read the opening post:

"Second, it doesn't do anything at all to anyone else's marriage. All of this "debasing the institution of marriage" noise only says to me that your marriage is so weak that someone else getting married can have some negative effect on it. Why don't you strengthen your own marriage instead of outlawing someone else's? Being made to feel insecure in your marriage is not really a valid reason for banning gay marriage."

Hey Bud. It has nothing to do with being secure in one's own marriage. I'm perfectly secure and in a very strong marriage. You suck politically correct dogshit. It's illegal as just pointed out in San Francisco. Go change the fucking law. It will never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Fred miller
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM

I wouldn't want to be adopted because I'm middle-aged and set in my ways, and this is also essentially what I don't like about same-sex marriage. That's all I need is more social complications, arrangements, ettiquette, things to ask Miss Manners about, new lines of Hallmark cards to have to pick through. For those of us who gain nothing from it, it's just a big headache. Can't these people just live a lie? they're good at theatre, what's the big deal?

Are we going to have to do new bathroom arrangements, based on declared orientations? Or are gays still going to get special rights to peek in locker rooms and stuff? Because I'd really enjoy an occasional sporting glance at normal naked women--it's so unfair that I can only get it served up as cheesy porn--it's self-conscious, awkward, goofy, it's just not the same. On top of that, straight guys aren't allowed to just hang out with women in their little book clubs and stuff, you CAN, but then the girls stop gossiping and act all serious, in silence.

There needs to be some legal package that gives something to straight people in the deal, some fun little enticement, or we will continue to grunt and groan, stall, drag our feet, air our petty complaints, blah blah blah. It's going to happen, anyway, of course, but we can do it the easy way, or the semi-easy but sort of difficult way, or the medium degree of hassle way. We can be nice, or sort of pissy about it. What's in it for us?


sorry if this double-posts, it won't go thru.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:46 AM

Good post, Fred.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: el ted
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:55 AM

My God!! Public buildings are going to have to have "gay" toilets as well as "male" and "female"

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM

And after that, blacks will demand separate toilet facilities for them!

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:38 PM

"I ask you sincerely, would you personally want to be adopted by a homosexual couple as a helpless babe, to face a lifetime of pervasive social ostracism and potential violence? As for me, NOT ON YOUR (WHATEVERSEXUAL) LIFE !!!"

Your question, daylia, is a silly one. It is like asking me if I would choose to be born a Jew or black or Amish or a Gypsy or you name it. Each of these groups has been reviled and persecuted.

Frankly, in my opinion you would do yourself better service by examining your views.

And my answer? Absolutely. For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices.

Elva Bontrager

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,me
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

I'm a YES too....just can't be bothered discussing this with the self appointed sex police.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:54 PM

To me, it's pretty much the same thing as saying "Well a lot of people drown anyway, so go right ahead and throw those helpless babes into the deep end of the pool. We can scientifically study what happens, and find out (in a decade or several) if we made the wisest decision."


Daylia, I think you are still going on the premise that most gay people bring too much negative baggage into a relationship and that will reflect upon, and influence any children brought into the mix.

Or perhaps it's not that, but simply that you'd not like to see yet another group of children be harrassed, as there are enough out there as it is.

In either case, yes, studies will be taken (and somebody is sure to make a lot of bread off the backs of it) and somewhere down the road, I'm willing to bet the results will be closely equal to double gendered couples' children's difficulties.

I myself hope for even better. Above, Ebbie says, "For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices"

And in this I agree. Let's face it, our children are sadly often in the front lines of taking on the battles passed onto them by their parents-both positively and negatively.

The next generation (as your son has shown) may happily surprise us all.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:08 PM

"Old queen," Marty? That'll come as a helluva surprise to my wife (not to mention the young woman who lives in the apartment upstairs—   Please! Don't mention the young woman upstairs!!).

And that lovely bit about "You suck politically correct dogshit." Now there is a really devastating piece of logical argumentation. I am in awe! As an attorney, your courtroom skills must be downright dazzling!

And "It's illegal[insert comma here] as just pointed out in San Francisco." Just because something is judged legal or illegal does not mean the law is ethically or morally right. I could come up with a pretty long list of laws throughout history, and currently in effect, that illustrate my point, but I leave that to you as a good exercise for an attorney. Save yourself some effort and have one of your legal clerks do the research.

"Go change the fucking law." Now that's the first reasonable thing you've said since you climbed out of the Dumpster.

"It will never happen." I beg to differ. I think John P. is right on the money when he quotes Ghandi. Let me repeat that:   "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." And as John goes on to say, "Well, gays were ignored for a long time. Then they were the stuff of bad jokes. Now the bigots are fighting them. Guess what happens next?"

When gays finally do attain their full civil rights, that won't stop the bigots from doing their usual pissing and moaning, but unfortunately there will always be bigots. For example, there are some people who are still trying to fight the Civil War. People like that become jokes, e.g., Archie Bunker.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:18 PM

GUEST, far be it from me to defend Martin Gibson, and I'm sure he won't thank me for it, but that was pretty damned tacky!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM

Get a grip, he has insulted blacks, gays and women. It may be tacky but also justified, and do you REALLY think he cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:32 PM

I take it that some joeclone wisely deleted the tacky (actually much worse than tacky) message from GUEST that I was resonding to.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:35 PM

Don, I think the guest hit this one dead-center. Maybe you misread the post? A lot worse accusations have passed on this thread than "self-appointed sex police." Or are you responding to something that a clone has since made vanish?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM

SRS, that was not the post he was responding to. I saw it before it was deleted, and it certainly deserved to be IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM

But did it deserve to be deleted any more or less than all the race hating remarks MG has posted and have remained?

He of all people has no defence when people fight fire with fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: MaineDog
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:28 PM

It's not about marriage at all, its about money. Any issue that can polarize the opinions of people who have judgemental personality types can be hyped in both directions and used to raise funds, on both sides of the question. Can you think of a hotter button than this one? Hype it and get rich quick.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:29 PM

It's shower time, Martin, and no that is not water.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

GUEST, I will debate with Marty when he posts something worth debating (even if he can't seem to express himself without dipping into the septic tank), and I will tweak his nose for him (carefully disinfecting my fingers afterward), but when he debates from his usual postition, it doesn't raise the tone of the discussion to get down and wallow in the sewage with him.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Observing
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

Wisely put,Don

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:05 PM

It seems to me we have enough examples of men beating their wives black and blue, of women poisoning their husbands, of drunken and drugged incompetents leaving their toddlers to fend for themselves for days at a time, that any notion of the sanctity of the institution of marriage based on blessed bonding of a man and a woman should have been abandoned a long time ago. Hell, you need a license to drive an automobile, but any pair of idiots with differing and functional genitals can conceive a child, regardless of whether or not they have the first idea of how to raise it.

I say if two people love each other enough to want to spend the rest of their lives together and they think they have the strength to do so, let them. If any two people, or any one person, is enough of an adult to take care of children properly, let them have children. I'm not gay, but I care less if someone else is, as long as they treat their mate, their children, and the rest of the freaking world with a modicum of tolerance, respect, and care.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:47 PM

If the question is so silly, why did you answer it Ebbie?

I'm glad you did though, and I can see you've put a bit of heart and creative thinking into your answer. Way to go! :-)

I too like the idea - For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices.

This has a most familiar ring to it! Harmonizes just perfectly with the closing musings of my Aug 4 6:39 post ... just below that silly, absurd, flaming, idiotic, non sequitur (that's "moot") question, remember?

- Again, I think the teenager I quoted above is right. If we waited for a decade or so until people are at least more comfortable with the idea of "uncloseted" gays, and homosexual marriage is old news, these children would be a lot less at risk.

But hey, perhaps there's a great line-up of Souls just waiting to be incarnated as the children of homosexuals in this oh-so-kindly-and-enlightened age (NOT!), in order to balance their karma or something.

In every cloud there's a ....


Gotta love those silver linings -- even better when they take a few days to shine through!

The poll looks pretty even so far - 3 "yes", 3 "no" and 1 "moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot!"

Thanks to all for your responses, and a very special thanks to Stilly.

daylia


PS Ebbie, if I should ever require or desire advice on how to serve myself, I'll be sure to ask ok?

Until then, please be assured that I already have the very finest of all Service(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:29 PM

Lonesome EJ, that was very well said - just what I would have liked to have said, only I don't think I would have put it as well as you did.

I see GUEST was having another little go - having seen the original post, I noticed. Maybe nobody else did. Just as well, really. Maybe others were smarter than me and didn't comment - oh well.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:47 PM

Let's expand the poll:

Assume you are 6 years old, an orphan, and waiting to be adopted. Would you rather be adopted by:

a) a middle-class heterosexual couple that are white
b) a middle-class gay couple who are white
c) a rich Polish couple who are white
d) a very rich Chinese couple
e) a relatively poor black couple in an okay neighborhood
f) a wealthy Jewish couple in an upscale condo
g) a Lithuanian jewelry engraver and a Mexican assembly line worker
h) a transexual hairdresser who wants to be Howard Stern
i) two hip hop singers of the opposite gender
j) two hip hop singers of the same gender
k) two people who are asexual (they don't have sex with anybody)
l) a woman from Schenectady and a goat
m) a billionaire who is into exhibitionism and has three mistresses
n) a member of the Bush family
o) two Croation gypsies
p) Chongo Chimp
q) Michael Jackson
r) A football coach and a stripper
s) 7 dwarves
t) the Wicked Witch of the North
u) the Reg Boys
v) Paw & Cletus
w) Penelope Rutledge and Winston Wellington-Jones
x) Locutus of Borg
y) Spaw
z) None of the above

There. That should do it. Pick which you would most like to be adopted by and which you would least like to be adopted by. This should give people enough to chew on and fight about to keep this thread going for weeks. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:29 PM

I do indeed always have the very finest of all Service(s) ... including these sensitive and insightful words above.

I myself hope for even better. Above, Ebbie says, "For all I know, I would have chosen/been chosen to be born at that time or in that place in order to help people examine and rectify their prejudices"

And in this I agree. Let's face it, our children are sadly often in the front lines of taking on the battles passed onto them by their parents-both positively and negatively.

The next generation (as your son has shown) may happily surprise us all.

:-)

I just re-read your hopeful post - Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much) Ellenpoly.

You too (again), Ebbie.

And you, E'O (Creator :-)


gointobedgratefulnowdaylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:35 PM

ROFL!

Thanks, LH. What, like Service(s) we all gets around here eh? :-)

Iz better votes in the mornin though ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:54 AM

I'm weirdly honored, Martin, that although we entirely disagree, (will never happen/will certainly happen) you liked my post. All right. But ACTUALLY, change is the norm for marriage as an institution, you know, because long ago, blah blah blah, etc. And also, consider that the blah blah blah, blah.

Ebbie, as I mentioned on a thread that got killed, someday I'd like to get into a good rift with you, as soon as I can find something I disagree with you about. And casually meet you naked in a locker room or something.

Hypothetical questions are kind of funny, yes. Something in me prevents me from being serious and heartfelt when contemplating the future or a hypothetical situation, unless I'm mad, and so I try to say what I seriously mean in a joke. Then it pisses me off nobody takes me seriously.

Ellenpolly, do people still make "bread"? Takes me back. That's all, I gotta book, and also, split.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:57 AM

Well-said, LeeJ and Ebbie and John P.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Two_bears
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM

I do not yet feel comfortable with the idea of two males or two females playing "mommy and daddy" for the next generation.

Daylia: It is not the ideal situation; but look at it from the child's point of view. I would certainly rather see the children adopted than in horrid foster homes where the foster family only care for the money they can get.

I think most progressive Christians would say that the authors of Leviticus and the letters attributed to Paul were products of their times - times when homosexuality and eating shellfish were considered

Joe: I agree with you. at the time scriptures are written; the scriptures MUST be cogent to the people writing it dowm of they would not record it, and if they were to record it while in trance; they would not apply it.

You have to look at the time in which it was written, and apply that filter.

The Jews (in the day of Leviticus) were always at war with their neighbors, and they needed a steady stream of new warriors. a homosexual relationship can not result in a child that could be a warrior in a few years.

It's been frustrating to be a Catholic recently, though. It seems the fundamentalists are getting the upper hand. Mother Angelica and

The Pope; has made several statements I disagree with.

At one time Priests were allowed to marry; but the church did not want to take care of the children and widows.

I disagree with the pope about birth control, capital punishment, etc.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:43 AM

Well if it makes anyone feel any better, I do feel a slightly more comfortable with the idea of gays playing "mommy and daddy" for the next generation now. (Not that it really matters at all, except to me). Personally I still don't like it, I wouldn't choose such a situation for myself and therefore never would I inflict it on anyone else - least of all a helpless child - but then again, I'll never have to, right? This time around, anyway.

I think I understand exactly how such parental "wanna-bes" would feel. If I were a lesbian for example, and stuck with the fact that I couldn't have kids the natural way, I might be thinking something like "NOT FAIR! WHAT AN UNENLIGHTENED, IDIOTIC, "MOOT" BIGOT NATURE IS! It's so good there's all this new technology, all these orphaned unwanted babies and politically correct bandstanders out there these days - now I can still get exactly what I THINK I want!

I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, blacks, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it! Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."

Things are different on a spiritual level, though. It is my understanding that we choose our families and our life situations before we are born, for reasons which are often incomprehensible from the vantage point of the mortal human mind. This is always a free choice - we never "have" to do anything, or "be" anyone, or even incarnate here at all if we choose not to.

That's why I'm a bit more comfortable with the whole scenario now - I have nothing to say about what another might choose. It's not my responsibility, and none of my business.

Thanks for helping me "see the Light" at the end of this very dark tunnel, folks.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:19 AM

Little Hawk, I'd like most to be adopted by (m)- a billionaire who is into exhibitionism and has three mistresses.

I'd have lots of money to buy blindfolds so I wouldn't have to look at his exhibitions, plus he'd be so occupied with the three mistresses I'd be free to do whatever I pleased 24/7. Who could ask for more?

I'd like least to be adopted by (h) a transexual hairdresser who wants to be Howard Stern.

Booooring .... been there, done that, bought the T-shirt and moved on.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:22 AM

Daylia: It is not the ideal situation; but look at it from the child's point of view. I would certainly rather see the children adopted than in horrid foster homes where the foster family only care for the money they can get.

What's the difference between being raised in a foster home where the family cares only about the money they get for taking me in, and being raised by people who (very possibly) care more about their personal self-gratification than any "horrid" effects the exercise of their new-found "righta to parenthood" will (most likely) inflict on me?

Not much.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:33 AM

There's only one reasons that this issue has come up - because George bush (and now John howard in Oz) want to use it as a wedge issue to win votes.

they keep picking on minorities, making people hate them/afraid of them/despise them, to get votes.

and that is why young people in their teens are running away from home - because their parents are being taught to hate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:01 AM

Daylia, you are making a lot of assumptions on just what another person may think upon adoption. Your own prejudice against lesbians, gays, and bi-sexuals, like me, is showing when you write such gross assumptions. We are not ogres who think only of self-gratification. And, for the record, lesbigays have been raising children for at least the past 20-30 years that I know of and done just as grand a job as the next couple.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:25 AM

daylia, I think that is called giving with one hand and taking away with the other. :) But that's OK, since you will not be in a situation where you will need to raise such children. (I'm sure you have many fine qualities; I would not want my children to be raised by you. )

Fred Miller, as long as we get to snap towels in that locker room! I have always wanted to learn how to do that.