BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 09:05 AM

”We have absolutely no benefits whatsoever from brexit.”

Do us a favour and tell that to your fellow delusional Tory-apologist, Nitpicking Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 10:41 AM

Dave:
Should we believe Mark Carney?
Well his stance immediately prior to the Brexit vote is available in The Guardian and it is possible that, even now, he does not want to admit he was wrong.
Other views question his latest comments, as in The Spectator

So it's not a case of deciding who is more likely to be believed, me or an ex-governor of the BofE.
The above Guardian quote (of Carney) even shows that he was only claiming half the pre-vote fall in the pound was due to risks associated with a vote to leave:
The Bank noted the pound had already depreciated 9% since a November peak and that half of that was down to the “risks associated with a vote to leave the European Union”

The situation is a lot more nuanced than it at first appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 11:17 AM

I don't read the Guardian. To be honest I've not read any newspaper in the last fifteen years. Before that I only got papers for the puzzles, not the political content.

From reading this forum it's clear to me that the Guardian is a left wing paper that uses partial truths to tell politically motivated lies.

So what's new? You can say that of most papers, left or right. You believe what you want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 12:36 PM

The Guardian is more left leaning than most of the MSM, Stanron, but it is far from left wing. Except of course by current standards which have moved so much to the left anything slightly left of centre is jumped upon as Communist!

Nigel. How far would the pound have dropped had it not been for brexit? Much less. So a drop in the pound due to brexit is a valid statement. You are really clutching at straws here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 01:44 PM

D the G posts

"The Guardian is more left leaning than most of the MSM, Stanron, but it is far from left wing. Except of course by current standards which have moved so much to the left anything slightly left of center is jumped upon as Communist!"

MSM = mainstream media?

There's something not quite right (or should I say correct ? ) with what follows. Either everything left of center will seem more centrist or current standards have moved to the right. I'm going to guess that, if MSM means mainstream media, you mean the latter of the two. I'd have to disagree.

To me mainstream media seems left of center. Especially the BBC. Not as far left as the more vociferous UK lefty posters on this forum and maybe that's the point. They are left of me and right of you. Perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 02:34 PM

It's ok, lads, it's April fools' day.


Oh, hang on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 02:53 PM

I had a left instead of a right! I should have said everything has moved so much to the right!

Yes, mainstream media, Stanron. Think Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times and Sun.

You really think that things have not moved in that direction? That Thatcher and subsequent tory leaders were not right of, for instance, Ted Heath? Or that Tony Blair was not right of Harold Wilson? The whole political spectrum has moved so far to the right as to give neo-nazi organisations a voice and enabled ridiculously right figures like Trump to gain power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 03:42 PM

Left right, quick quick slow!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 02:12 AM

Williamson resigned. But it shouldn’t have come to resignation, Fishy Rishi should have sacked him. This hideous Tory government really are absolutely rotten to the core.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 04:39 AM

Well fishy Rishi's very dodgy judgement, already highlighted by his appointment of the horrendous Braverman, would have been even more to the fore had he sacked Williamson. You can bet your life that he didn't half lean on him to resign instead...

When my sis was president of the NAHT, she bumped into Williamson one day in St James' Park and had a natter with him. Brick wall...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 05:11 AM

Here you go, Nigel.

Brexit home truths undeniable but not to Tories

Opinion of course but pretty compelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:02 AM

Well true enough, Steve, Fishy shouldn’t have appointed that waste of oxygen to the Cabinet in the first place, given that he already knew about the complaints against Williamson. I think we’re continuing to witness the death-throes of a government which is rotten to its core, and which has completely run out of ideas, and people of sufficient calibre to make those ideas work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:32 AM

I'd like to think that you're not posting in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:49 AM

”I'd like to think that you're not posting in hope.”

Not really. I’m certain they will hang on as long as possible - probably until 2024 - in order to keep their wealth-grab alive. Any government that placed value on decency, honesty, and responsibility to the entire population would have called a GE by now, in the face of their disastrous record since 2019, but the Tories’ main interest is in enabling the enrichment of the already-immensely-wealthy, and I’m certain they will hang on to power until the bitter end in order to keep that going.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 09:44 AM

As they say in Derbyshire. Better to post in Hope than email in Clay Cross. Well, something like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 12:32 PM

"Now we have complete idiots sitting on motorways blocking people from going about their daily business. I hope the time is near when motorists begin shunting this scum out of the way."

Hmm. From what I've just read about Suella Braverman's speech to the police, it looks like you're in bed with her, Bonzo.


Ooer, "in bed with Suella Braverman..." The very thought is putting me right off me tea...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 01:31 PM

Just think. Cruella with a whip and wearing leathers...

Pin up girl for all those working class masochists who voted for brexit and Bozzer!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 04:24 AM

I'm getting very low on my heating oil, and I just can't afford the price of a top-up. It's not allowed to order fewer than 500 litres, and that would cost around £460, around three times the price a couple of years ago. The Government Winter Fuel Payment hasn't yet arrived in my bank account (what a surprise!) and my letter says, "If you have not received it by January 2023, ring this number :" etc)
January? Are they bonkers? How can us pensioners wait until winter has truly set in? I'm sitting swathed in a blanket, wearing my winter coat. This rise in the cost of living is depressing me. Can't fill up my car, can't afford to put my electric oven on. Can't afford to heat the house. Council Tax has gone up. "I'm a pensioner! Get me out of here!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 04:32 AM

Sorry to hear that, we know what we are getting but haven't received it yet either. I was hoping to pack up work after the next tax return deadline at the end of January, but looks like I'll be carrying on. I think we've had heating on for a total of 2 hours so far!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM

You voted for them, Bonz, you’ve got what you voted for so Suck It Up, sucker! I’ll bet the likes of the Rees-Moggs and Sunaks aren’t sitting huddled in blankets wondering if they dare turn the heating on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 05:57 AM

I voted for Them too, much to my shame. I shan't vote for Them again however. They don't care a pin for us 'oiks' and are all sitting in luxury homes warm, as toast and drinking champagne (possibly). My Irish mother would have said, "Bad cess to them!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 08:26 AM

Citizens advice has a good page for anyone struggling with energy costs at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/get-
help-paying-your-bills/grants-and-benefits-to-help-you-pay-your-
energy-bills/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Nov 22 - 05:13 AM

That's so helpful and kind of you Dave, but my dear sister has just come to the rescue with some financial help. I'll pay her back when the Winter Fuel Payment arrives in my bank account.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 22 - 07:54 PM

A report on the telly tonight about agency doctors and nurses (in other words, from the private sector) having to be hired by the NHS in desperation because there are simply not anywhere near enough NHS staff to keep our hospitals running. These workers don't fit in very well, quite understandably. Why not? Because the dedicated NHS regulars see these people being helicoptered in earning two or three times per day what they themselves earn. One cancer doctor - a cancer doctor, fer chrissake, when cancer waiting times are dangerously ballooning - told of an offer of £130 per hour for his services...

Well we taxpayers pay for these agency workers, and the agencies get paid even more on top. We taxpayers pay for the training hospitals where these agency workers were trained, and we taxpayers pay for their training. This is costing the taxpayer billions every year. It's a bloody scandal, and next time you hear a Tory saying that they "invest more than ever in the NHS", just think about where that "investment money" is actually going. The lying bastards...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:22 AM

So what is your alternative solution. Leave the hospitals short staffed so that the remaining staff are run ragged?

The NHS have been employing agency staff for years. I would rather that they did not have to do that. Some staff prefer to work that way.

There are not many easy solutions. There are no quick solutions.

Between 2014 and 2016 I spent a fair amount of time in A & E departments accompanying my mother on a number of ambulance visits, so much so I thought I might get an invite to the staff xmas party. One rare quite night while waiting for hospital transport back home for my mother, i got chatting with a nurse. I said the 12 hour shifts must be hard. She said they were and tbat is why she was agency. Work a few months then take a few weeks off before returning. Quite understandable.

Of course it is probably easier for agency staff to fit in on A & E rather than a ward of longer staying patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:48 AM

I got the dates wrong. It was between 2016 & 2018 that I spent more time than I wanted in A&E departments & general wards. I got to see a lot in my position of visitor/helper rather than a patient.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:51 AM

Rain Dog, The main point I take away is not that agency staff are used but that staff are trained by the NHS, at taxpayers expense, and then leave to take more lucrative positions before the benefit to the NHS is realised. Maybe putting a clause in any training package that you must work for the people that train you for a certain period would work? In business it is called return on investment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:54 AM

i was in hospital for a small procedure a few years ago. the senior nurse I saw was telling me that she and 2 colleagues had had their shifts for the weekend cancelled at the last minute. This happens regularly so they would travel to Newcastle and make more money doing agency shifts there. In Newcastle exactly the same was happening and 3 nurses were travelling to Cumbria. Obvious madness . We agreed that the only possible reason would be to undermine the NHS and cause chaos and confusion. Cynical tactics by the government.

Possible solution. Anyone trained by the NHS should have to work , say, 35 hours a week within the NHS. Any further work could be on overtime.

Any services provided by agency workers could be done by agency trained staff.

Of course if NHS staff had better pay and conditions then there would be fewer vacancies in the service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 04:23 AM

Dave.

I doubt that there are many staff who complete their training and then sign up for agency work right away. Peoples lives change. They start a family etc and want to work more flexible hours. I think we can all agree that it would be a shame and a huge waste of money if these people left medical/health work for good.

Like I said, I saw how hard staff worked on busy A&E departments during 12 hour shifts. Week after week of that sort of work must be hard.to cope with. I would find it hard to tell those people that they should not be able to do agency work if they so wished.

There are no easy solutions. There is certainly no quick solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:14 AM

it's a sign of how far we have fallen as a country (countries) that we have allowed our NHS treasure to fall into such disrepair. a service providing a good, prompt and caring service should be the starting point not a distant goal. staff should really have a valued and stable job, flexible when needed and properly rewarded. Private providers are just feeding off the deficiencies in the service and enriching the already rich and corrupt. In many ways, outsourcing has become normal in our public services and permitted to prosper in our free-market world. All driven by vicious, feckless politicians whose main aim is to shrink the state and further enrich the wealthy.

it isn't normal or necessary, maybe we just forget what a centre ground of politics could be. To see the relative prosperity and decency of our european neighbours is a sad reminder of what we have lost. it's what brexit was all about in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:26 AM

National Audit Office report from 2006

Improving the use of temporary nursing staff in NHS acute and foundation trusts

Makes for interesting reading.

One of these days this country might have a sensible debate about the type of health service we want and the price we are prepared to pay for it. I will not be holding my breath though.

I was not aware of NHS Professionals

From their website:

"We run the largest NHS flexible staff bank, placing highly skilled temporary workers in NHS Trusts to meet their short, medium and long-term needs. Uniquely we are owned by the Department of Health and Social Care and we therefore reinvest any surplus we make directly back into the wider healthcare economy.

Originally formed in 2001, we now have more than 50 client Trusts and over 180,000 healthcare  professionals (Bank Members) registered with us. They work flexibly to NHS-assured standards in a wide range of roles including nurses and midwives, doctors, allied health professionals, healthcare scientists, personal social services and non-clinical."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:39 AM

Thinking about this as the difference between agency work and direct employment is a bit of a distortion.

I am a member of my local GP practice's Patient-Provider Group, which is essentially a regular conversation about what we need as patients and what they do as a surgery.

My practice (and the wider consortium) is fully staffed in terms of doctors, nurses, mental health support, admin staff and so on. This is unusual but is largely because they have a policy of "we can work around that."

You need to be away during the day to collect your child from school? We can work around that.

You have a role with the General Medical Council that requires you to attend hearings in Central London but there is no regular pattern for these? We can work around that.

You want to develop an existing speciality, either within the practice or on secondment to, say, the local hospital? We can work around that.

I want to be able to work extra hours much of the time, but can't commit to always being able to? We can work around that.

The result of all of that is that providing an applicant is suitable for other reasons, they can be offered the job. The hours they can work are almost never a deciding factor.

That takes effort, and management, and brings some additional costs because of that. But it gets the staffing where it need be. There is no fundamental reason why other parts of the NHS could not have the same flexibility. It does not need an agency to provide that. What is does need is the willingness of the NHS management to support it.

The fees the agencies get for providing nurses are extremely high - and don't think the nurses get much beyond the NHS equivalent. The bulk goes into the agency's profits.

The biggest single thing that agency nurses get - according to my nephew's wife, who is a nurse - is a reduction in the pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 12:28 PM

If you have your full complement of GPs, etc., working around it is far more feasible than if you haven't. Getting your heads together and deciding to be flexible is a great ploy when you are looking over your shoulder and realising that most practices haven't got your good fortune. Having flexibility forced on you when you have been trying and failing to recruit a GP for months, and/or when exhausted practice nurses contribute to a high turnover in which new staff (if you can get them) are raw and unused to the ways of the practice, results in the danger of exhaustion and disillusionment. There's a big difference between negotiating flexible working practices in a well-staffed setup than trying to do it when staff are missing, or coming and going, or when some may have to have been selected from a lean field.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM

Agreed, Steve, but I am talking about flexibility during the recruitment process itself, not just once you have the complement of staff. It is things like allowing multiple part time staff rather than a full time job.

Of course, things like living in an urban, suburban or rural area affects the number of applicants as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Nov 22 - 04:33 PM

The French Interior Ministry has confirmed that a joint declaration between the UK and France will be signed tomorrow in Paris to deal with the migrant crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM

What puzzles me is how do they know how many illegal immigrants there are if they entered to country illegally? It's almost as if the Daily Mail make these things up...

As to demonising them, I will quote Woody Guthrie

"You won't have a name when you ride the big aeroplane
All they will call you will be deportee"

Nothing much has changed in 74 years has it :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 22 - 05:18 PM

Sweller Braverman referred this morning to stopping illegal immigrants coming from France. Well they're not immigrants unless they actually get here first, Sweller. And if you stop them, they're not "illegal" either (they're not anyway, as a person can't be "illegal"). My word. Not only is she the spawn of the devil, she's bloody illiterate too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:12 AM

Rubbish, their method of entry is illegal because they do not arrive through normal customs and immigration process, nothing more nothing less, and we do not want them here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:15 AM

Their method of entry may be illegal but there is no such thing as an illegal human being. And do speak for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:30 AM

Simple question for you, Bonzo. If they did not arrive through the "normal customs and immigration process", how do you know how many are here?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 10:34 AM

How should I know - totally irrelevant.

They are commonly known as illegals, if you don't like it tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 11:16 AM

"How should I know - totally irrelevant."

Au contaire Bonzo, some people like yourself rant on about "illegal immigrants" at length and with a great degree of vitriol. However you do not know if you are ranting about two, two hundred, two thousand or two million.

Before you start ranting again I would make suggest that you make a serious effort to get your facts before you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 11:20 AM

It is not ‘illegal’ to cross the channel by any means, including by inflatable boat, nor is it ‘illegal’ to land on a beach. It only becomes illegal if those landing on the beach attempt to evade notifying the immigration authorities of their arrival.

‘Illegal Immigrants’ is an extreme right-wing dog-whistle term, deliberately designed and used to get the simpletons and those who are hard of thinking foaming at the mouth. It obviously works, judging by recent posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 12:31 PM

Amnesty International article.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 12:54 PM

Spot on, John. And Bonzo, I'd love to hear Sweller talking about "illegals invading the south coast." Even Fishy would sack her for that!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM

‘Sweller’? Aaaaahh, you mean Sue-Ellen Cassiana Braverman, that woman who changed her real name from Sue-Ellen in order to avoid comparisons with ‘Dallas’!

‘Cruella’ is far more appropriate, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:21 PM

Sue-Ellen Braverman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM

Illegal only in the minds of those thick enough to fall for dog-whistles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM

Her mum and dad actually named her after Sue-Ellen Ewing in Dallas. She was another sad case if I remember rightly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:36 PM

Correct Steve.