BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question

Subject: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

This is a purely hypothetical question for the purpose of this thread, although it will probably coincide with the actual beliefs of some people. But I'm asking people to imagine what they might do in my hypothetical scenario even if it's not actually a part of what they believe.

If you knew that after you die, you would experience a period in which you would be going through a review of the physical life you had just finished, and during that review, you would not only see, hear, smell, etc. all of the things you had done, been a part of, been responsible for, etc. during your life, but also that you would actually feel everything that every other person your actions and decisions effected in any way while you were still alive felt as a result of these things, and you would feel them both physically as well as emotionally, would you conduct your life any differently than you are now?

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:24 PM

I would think that to the exact degree this awareness were a certainty in my mind, my behavior toward others would improve. Not a bad thing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:26 PM

You might feel all thise things, but I'd have thought there'd be no way you could change external things. All you could change would be how you felt about them. You'd be a passenger, an observer.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM

Sorry McGrath. I think I might have posed my question badly. What I mean is, if you knew now, while you are still able to make changes in your life, that when you die, you would have that experience, would that knowlege change the way you do things before you die?

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Teresa
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:51 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:55 PM

Are you including how people who hold opposing viewpoints would feel? (ie, conservatives if one is liberal, and vice versa)? What about those who hold fundementalist views, and KNOW that your actions/words are dooming you? Would you feel their pain, as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:02 PM

Wow, beardedbruce. There's an interesting monkeywrench.

Yeah. I guess about the same amount as it would hurt your mother if she wanted you to be a dentist and you decided to be an actor instead. That's how I'm fitting your question into my hypothetical scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:06 PM

Well, maybe, but it's possible I'd just intend to, but not quite get around to doing things differently. I'd probably think I was doing things differently, but it would be hard to know. Or, I might just say screw this dead version of me--in much the way that, as a teenager, I must've regarded the grown-up me, i.e. me, now, or the way that I now think of the retired version of me living on savings, i.e., a me that will be pretty righteously pissed at the present me.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:09 PM

Of course, fundamentalists might die and discover that what they think they "KNOW" was wrong, and they would feel the pain of all of the people onto whom they tried to impose their beliefs. This one I know about from my own experience with my fundamentalist mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

I'd hope not. I try to empathise with people now and not be the sort of monster that enjoys hurting others. I once beat up a bully who kept picking on me and other smaller kids. Would I have to feel his shame and rage? If I knew I had to feel someone suffer and perhaps die if I shot them when they tried to kill me or someone else, would I let them do it? After all, they'd feel the knife or gun wounds or the rape later on, and I'd be mercifully free of it all because I hadn't done anything. If I knew I'd have to feel the rage of an abusing partner I'd left, would I leave?

Experiencing joy given that was both intentional or accidental might be good. I don't think it's quite enough to make up for feeling the pain I'd caused because of other people's bad decisions. I think I'd be tempted to be as inert as possible - go live in a cave and avoid all possible risks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM

CarolC:

I agree entirely with your post of 03:09- but the question seemed to imply that you would feel what the other person felt, with no choice on your part.

I try not to hurt anyone, but I know that sometimes my opinion causes anger and upsets people. Being imperfect, I think that I would continue to try to act consistant with my principles, and to not knowing choose to cause others pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM

Carol,
       It is very appropriate for this time of year that you posed this question, and it is especially relevant for me. In exactly 2 weeks, we Jews will be celebrating the High Holidays of Rosh Hashana and 10 days after that, Yom Kippur. This period is a time for introspection, reflection and repentance for our sins of the previous years, not only against God but against our fellow human beings. During these holidays, also known as the "Days of Awe", God opens the books, or to bring this into the 21st century, replays the DVDs and video tapes of our behavior during the previous year. Based upon the evidence contained therein God decides what kind of a year we are going to have and most important, whether we will live or die during the coming year. Being fallable human beings, we have to assume that our actions during the previous year were not nearly what God expected out of us. Therefore many Rabbis will ask from the pulpit, " If you had fore-knowledge about the consequences of your actions during the previous year, especially the effects that they would have on your fellow human beings (insults, hurt feelings, etc.), would you still have committed those actions, or would you have changed them for the better ?" You have posed the exact same question to start this thread. My answer would be, I would definitely have changed many things that I have done during my life and done things a lot differently. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM

I once beat up a bully who kept picking on me and other smaller kids. Would I have to feel his shame and rage?

I guess you would, but you would also feel whatever good feelings the other smaller kids experienced after you got the bully to stop picking on them. I guess the question there would be, which would be worse, feeling the pain and rage of the bully and the gratitude and relief of the smaller kids (and maybe other good things as well), or not feeling any of those things. Or maybe just not having to feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:26 PM

I think there is only one thing I would have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:26 PM

If we're conscious at all after death, I would certainly hope that each of us would be much wiser than we are now, better able to understand the viewpoints of others and to truly empathize.

Even though I find it difficult to hold any *specific* beliefs about the Great Unknown, I manage to maintain an attitude of faith, however vague, and try to proceed as though I'll have to live with the consequences of my decisions forever.

If I had a clearer idea of exactly what to expect, would I behave any better? Maybe, maybe not. I'd still probably screw up at least occasionally, falling into selfishness, inconsideration, or worse...

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:29 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Rabbi Sol.

Beardedbruce, I guess I did mean with no choice on your part. But it would be balanced by the pain you might cause other people if you didn't live your truth, and whatever good things you created in others by honoring your truth. So in that case, you might be weighing the hurt that the fundamentalist feels if you don't do what they want you to do against your own pain and maybe the pain of others if you don't honor your truth, as well as whatever relief the fundamentalist might feel, against whatever joy, beauty, or other good things you might create by honoring your truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:29 PM

No, I don't think it wouldn't change the way I live Carol. I'm usually pretty happy with the way I live, feel and think. I am not responsible for anyone else's thoughts, feelings, choices or behaviors - only for my own. So if I did end up experiencing everyone else's feelings and reactions toward me after I die, I'd see it as a valuable exercise in (loving) detachment.

Now, I just hope this doesn't slip my mind at some crucial future moment ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:33 PM

daylia,

"Now, I just hope this doesn't slip my mind at some crucial future moment ..."

A perfect summation! The question is always are we judged by our attempts, or our successes?

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM

btw, great thread, CarolC!

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM

I agree with Rabbi Sol.

The Day of Atonement nears.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:38 PM

Thanks beardedbruce. And thanks everyone else for your thoughtful responses as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:40 PM

I suspect that I would be paralysed with the fear of the consequences of taking any action whatsoever, and die quite soon as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM

gnomad:

But would doing nothing still cause those who might care about you pain?

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:57 PM

As others have already said, I try not to hurt anyone, but if you went about your life thinking about that all the time, it might make you so afraid to move that you didn't live your life to the full, which would be a Bad Thing. Everything you do has the potential to affect a lot of other people and it isn't possible, however careful you are to avoid hurting people, always to see the consequences of all your actions. I think my answer would be no, I would go on as I already do.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:14 PM

Ok, I think I experienced your hypothetical situation in a dream once, Carol, and at the risk of sounding like a Crisco commercial I'd like to share it with you ...

In the dream I was resting in a beautiful white stone room with white draperies, looking out the window. There was a booth outside, with a very very VERY tall man (or Being) in a white robe behind it. In front of the booth there was a long lineup of much smaller men, also dressed in white robes.

The first one stepped up to the booth, and suddenly I could hear the most godawful sounds of a beating ... the thuds and cracks of boots and fists pounding into flesh. But no one was moving - not even the Tall one behind the booth. Yet the one who'd stepped up to booth was crumpling to the ground as if his body was being broken by invisible thugs - first his feet, then legs, then up his body. Finally he was completely prostrate on the ground, nothing left unbroken but his head ... and as I watched in horror the Tall One stepped out from behind the booth and stood over him. As the final crushing blows fell I had to turn my eyes away and cover my face ... and I woke up.

Yukky dream, huh? I DO hope it's not like that .... :-(

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:26 PM

Yay for this thread!

For me, future consequences are not necessarily a deterrent. The best consequences are immediate.

But wow, think about what it would be like to be able to go through every single day with that level of awareness and empathy - what an enlightened person I would be!

However, I'm having trouble imagining what having the experience you described, at the end of this life, would be like. Would I be filled with frustration and sorrow and remorse? Or would I be filled with peace and compassion and a better understanding of what it means to be human?

Do I get to keep some vestige of the knowledge gained by this experience with me into the next life, if indeed I get to try again?

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:42 PM

That's quite a dream, daylia. I guess you're probably a better judge of what it means than anyone else could be.

Do I get to keep some vestige of the knowledge gained by this experience with me into the next life, if indeed I get to try again?

In my hypothetical scenario, yes, you do. And you're the only one who gets to judge whether or not you did the best you could under the circumstances in which you found yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:56 PM

I think every single one of us on this forum would have to think very hard about changing our lifestyles. Right now we don't even KNOW about the grinding poverty, sickness, and pain that is caused by our economies in other places in the world. When you bought a shirt, you would feel the sweatshop worker's fatigue, and taste the water polluted with bleach, etc., etc. This kind of foreknowledge would have the potential to structurally change the world, not only change ou individual actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:02 PM

Would I conduct my life any differently? I doubt it. While I've certainly avoided intentionally hurting people, it's inevitable that our actions will hurt other people. Our lives are basically nothing but a series of choices and most of those choices aren't simply matters of choosing between good and bad. More often, we make choices that will benefit us the most while hurting others the least. Sure there are sadistic jerks who inflict hurt intentionally and there are self-sacrificing simps who endure a lot of pain rather than inflict a little, but most of us fall somewhere between. We're simply trying to survive while making as few waves as possible. But, make no mistake about it, we will make waves and some people are going to get wet and that's just part of the human condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:19 PM

I guess you're probably a better judge of what it means than anyone else could be.

Yup. And here's a clue -
Your "situation" feels a bit like deja vu   :~/

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:39 PM

it like asking if you'd act better if you seriously believed in Kharma...

of course!...I'd stop and think and analyze and meditate and plan and all that even more than I do now. Come to think of it, I'd barely have time to act, which would make life calmer, though less productive, perhaps.

I like to think that I follow a version of the "Golden Rule" and have a reasonably altruistic attitude...but that scenario would test me, for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

My way of dealing with that scenario, I guess, would be to try to follow my conscience to the best of my ability, and hope for the best. I agree with those who think it would be quite a learning experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:21 PM

every action has its equal and opposite reaction - on this point science and mysticism agree.

among the "beliefs" that i've picked up over the years is that view that a life review as described/theorised by Carole will happen when I move on (to the great Mudcatarium in the Sky).yes, i'd like to think I could live better, and on the whole i try too. but i have a very human streak and do stupid things occasionally - and i look back afterwards and think, oh hell.

I have had an experience once when a friend who died came and "visited" me afterwards, comforting me and letting me know she was okay and still about. something external happened to confirm this experience for me. so i have no fear of death, and see it as a shedding process, a transformation.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:36 PM

Nerd starts asking the right questions in this scenario. I'm missing two things in this mental exercise:
(1) How long will that period of reliving last? (why should I worry if it's two days?)
(2) How far extends my responsibility and the reliving of others feelings? Is there any end of the causal chain?

Example: I buy a reservation for a train. This happened to be the last reservation for a seat in that train. A women coming a bit after me didn't get a reservation and therefore rides on that train without a reservation and sits on the aisle/corridor. That causes that woman to make the aquaintance of a at the first glance nice young man. They marry eventually and 20 years later he kills her. Will I feel the pain of her daughter losing her mom this way? Mind you, I have never met any of these persons in my life but one of my thoughtless actions has triggered a chain of events.

Example: I drive a bit slower than allowed for I am lost in some thoughts. That makes me and the car behind me stop at the next red light. This delay of 1 minute 'causes' him to to be victim of an accident 2 hours later. If he had been at that point of the street one minute earlier he would not have been run over by a truck. Am I to feel the sadness of his wife?

If I would start to think about all joy and sadness my actions could theoretically have even without me knowing I couldn't live a normal life. That's why I say a clear 'no' to your hypothetical question. I wouldn't do anything different if I would believe that scenario to be possible.

However, I strongly believe in life before death and when I do wrong to someone I have imagination enough to relive their feelings, even years after the event. That's what makes me do things differently or, in the bad cases, wish I had done them differently. Some wrong actions can haunt me years later. That's bad enough, so the additional reliving wouldn't have any impact on me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:41 PM

**IF** is always an interesting exercise, but some 'ifs' are almost too hypothetical to deal with.

"if all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister?"

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:08 PM

Those are some interesting questions, Wolfgang. Since I've set this up as a hypothetical situation, I guess you can take it as far as you want to. As far as how long it would last, I guess that would depend on how many layers you were going to be examining, and whether or not, in your after-death context, time is even a working concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,LDB
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:51 PM

freda, SHE say: every action has its equal and opposite reaction - on this point science and mysticism agree.

Not at all true!!! Nowhere in science does it say that! It is a mistake many people make in quoting Newton. If you look closely at the terminology at the time of Newton, and the setting in which it was made, you will find that what he was talking about was FORCES! The proper way to state that in scientific language is this: "All forces occour in pairs."

Since your premise is wrong, your argument is meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:28 PM

Gee, it's a heck of a question. I know there are lots of clumsy things I do because I don't see what effect they will have on others, and the results were the complete opposite of my intentions. So, yes, if I knew at the time how dumb some of the things I said and did were, I'd do differently.

But I wonder if that sort of foreknowledge might take much of the spontanaeity out of life. Perhaps life is interesting and rich, partly because we have to stumble through it blindly.

-Joe Offer, bumblingly-

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:53 PM

Well, if one realy is trying to lead a loving, compassionate life the question of whether to live it differently *has* to be *yes*. Good people strive to be better people. There's no middle ground.

But take the guy who is the "shmo". Here he is with Doctor Dark running the projector of *his* life and how *his* actions affected other folks feelings and since he is, after all, a "shmo", he's probably very content knowing that he had to *power* to hurt folks feelings. So this guy isn't going to give a rat's butt since he didn't in the physical life.

Just MO, of course.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:15 PM

Or if he's a masochist, he might even enjoy feeling their pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM

Exactly, Carol. Some folks couldn't care less about other folks. It's real sad because it's because of environmental aspects that shape peoples values, or lack there of...

I kinda like something that Mark Twain said about how one goes about living ones life: "Live youn life so that when you die even the undertaker will be sad."

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:59 AM

There are actually monks someplace in Asia who sweep the ground in front of themselves with a broom as they walk, so they won't accidentally step on some living thing and kill it. I guess their "End of Life Review" would necessarily be very short - so would it benefit them?

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:04 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:35 AM

...Ach, daß es danach noch was Schönes gibt
Ist tröstlich in unserer Lage.
Wie gut! und doch, da bleibt uns noch
Die kleine - die große - die Frage
(das wüßten wir gern noch daneben!)
Ob's sowas gibt - wir hättens gern:
- auch v o r unserm Tode ein Leben

(last verse from Wolf Biermann's song Es gibt ein Leben vor dem Tod

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:54 AM

CarolC,

what wolfgang said, only more

You say that one would "see, hear, smell, etc. all of the things you had done". In other words one would replay ones life. Would that be in real time or burst mode?

Then you go on to say that one would repeat "everything that every other person your actions and decisions effected in any way while you were still alive".

if you take the butterfly hypothesis seriously you'd have to relive the lives of everybody on earth. Perhaps every sentient being in the galaxy, universe, whatever.

Even assuming a minimal average lifespan, billions of earth lives will require billions of years to repeat. It wouldn't take a large average lifespan to exceed the currently expected life of the known universe.

The Key question however is would you be aware that you were repeating?

If you weren't aware and you knew you wouldn't be aware and you knew you would be repeating everybody's life anyway why would you do anything differently?

If you were aware, it sounds like the most horrific case of multiple personality syndrome imaginable in the relives no matter how you behaved in this life.

If relife happens to everybody, then at any given time everybody will be reliving almost eveybody else's life simultaneously. If everybody is in some sense everybody what happened to individuals?

If you envision a human as a body in the control of one owner self-consciousness that is unaware of billions of other consciousnesses who are along for the ride, where does that get you?

You cannot sort out the practical implcations of a belief until you sort out its implications and its nuts and bolts.

If you are going to claim that a thread is "semi-philosophical" do some philosophy. Work out the implications of your initial postion first to see if it makes any sense. Then to see if it gets you where you want to be.

Russ (former philosopher)

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: GUEST,LDB
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:17 AM

CarolC: How will you differentiate between "anger" and "pain?" I'm not at all adverse to making people angry (Bush Republicans come to mind) and that could be painful for them. I'm not about to argue with some 96 year old lady who has been a model citizen all her life and thinks the President can do no wrong; but I have no problem in causing anger and yes, pain, in some slimeball like Sen. Sam Brownback.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:56 PM

Interesting point, SueB. If the objective of the people you describe is spiritual growth, as I suspect it is, my guess is that there would be some limitatons inherent in that particular approach.

GUEST,Russ, do you not see the potential for expansion of thought inherent in your post? From my perspective, your post is breathtakingly expansive. Try running with those questions you've posed for a while and see where they take you.

GUEST,LDB, I don't know how one would differentiate between anger and pain. Everybody experiences things in their own unique way.

Wolfgang, here's the Bablefish translation of your song...

Oh that there thereafter still which beautiful is is troestlich in our situation. How well! and still the small - the large - nevertheless, there remains for us the question (we would know gladly still beside it!) Ob's sowas gives - we haettens gladly: - also v o r unserm death a life

(read verses from wolf Biermann's song it gives a life before death

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM

I DO know that, Carol (as you asked at the beginning of this thread), and yet I still often fail to do as well as I could in my behaviour! Spiritual laziness is a tough habit to deal with. But knowing it has at least helped me to be a better person, anyway. I keep it in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Hypothetical semi-philosophical question
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

Yeah LH. I guess if it were easy, there wouldn't be much room for growth. I do find, in my own life, that I learn a lot of important things from my "mistakes".