BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008

Subject: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM

Is this not the most colossal "they just don't get it" failure in US political history, or what? The Washington Post is reporting:

"(F)riends and aides said he (Kerry) wants to use his new following and credibility to become a major force on a range of legislation that will extend well beyond his previous portfolio of national-security issues.

He also is contemplating establishing a political-action committee and perhaps a think tank to elevate his role during the jockeying over the definition and leadership of the Democratic Party."

Credibility? CREDIBILITY???

And here is what several Democrats and one of his own strategists (who of course chose to remain anonymous) had to say about the idea:

"But several Democrats expressed skepticism about Kerry's plans, saying they think the party needs a fresh face and must turn a corner.

"I can't imagine people are going to say, 'It worked pretty well last time. This is what we need next time,' " said one Democrat involved in Kerry's campaign strategy, who requested anonymity."

However, reality has apparently hit James Carville up side the hide. His remarks:

"The purpose of a political party is to win elections, and we're not doing that," he said."

Now there's a media genius.

The Democrats lost every presidential election but two out of the last nine, lost control of Congress, the judiciary, the state houses and state legislative assemblies to the Republicans, hell, they even lost dog catcher, and Carville finally figures this out?

Rocket scientists, those Dems--to a man!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM

Good for him...

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

Like your life on the bitter and virulent side, Guesty? Whycha lighten up a bit? The battle you are fighting won't go away if you take a break from it for a bit, I promise.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

It is right for you to attack this, GUEST. Because Carville is one of the sharpest political minds out there. Had he, and his Clintonista's, been involved earlier we may have had a different outcome. James Carville, hopefully, will be a force in the movement to bring the various parts together, and to craft a message that will resonate with the voters that turn out, as opposed to your constituency. Because that is what this is all about. You want to try and draw a constituency to your lunatic position. Actually, you have much in common with the Republican strategists. You try and set up self fulfilling prophecies. When that doesn't work, you go back and change your position, and yell it enough times that the lie becomes truth. The Communists, beginning with Stalin, used to use that tactic a great deal.

You should be worried. Because the Carville's of the world will work within the existing structure to change it to a more effective, dynamic organization. Nader and his ilk will continue to be irrelevant.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

Time to rejuvenate the Kerry is an arrogant asshole thread.

OG

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

Nooooooo...... that thread was too damn long as it was!
How about a "Old Guy Plans to Ruin in 2008" thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM

Right you are OG. Although I was thinking this might damper the enthusiasm of the Hilary in 2008 crowd.

Actually, I'm really laughing out loud at the thought of another Kerry run. Or any Democrat running in 2008 for that matter. I mean, what realistic chance is there that Republicrats are gonna run anywhere except for straight into the same old ground the Republicrats have mired themselves in for the past 30 years.

I'll stick with Nader and the progressives, thanks. But hey--you Republicrats just keep knocking yourselves out with that run to the right, aim for the middle class thing you are so good at.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Chris Green
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

Oh please God no...

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Chris Green
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:19 PM

Cross-posted! Directed at the suggestion to revive the Kerry is an arrogant asshole thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:23 PM

So, is there a consensus NOT to revive Kerry in any way, shape, or form at this point?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:23 PM

db - you were right first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Chris Green
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Well, that too! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:39 PM

The "progressives" remain clueless and unorganized. Progressives exist in both parties and remain fringe.   Not that the fringe won't affect change. The progressives in the Republican party created change after Goldwater and rebuilt the party.   The progressives in the Democratic party remain a polarizing influence in a very disorganized collective. Reminds me of Will Roger's statement "I'm not a member of any organized party, I'm a Democrat". Some things never change.

Guest does make a good point about progressives. It appears to be the progressive right that put Bush over the top. The progessive left still can't figure out a plan.

The Democrats need to re-examine the liberal roots and figure out what sort of candidate they wish to support.   Perhaps Howard Dean would be a great start as the new chairmen of the party, assuming he will go through with the bid.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: mg
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM

I hope that there are three parties next time: the Haliburton rabid right, and the progressive, very progressive left, and a place in the middle where we can vote for good national defense, law and order internally, good social and health programs, fair if somewhat high taxes. That is what I want to vote for. Me and a whole lot of others...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:48 PM

I'll also go for the place in the middle.

That is what we all need.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:53 PM

Funny, I remember Clinton winning twice and Carter once, which makes three elections of the last nine. But then GUEST never was one for the unvarnished truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:53 PM

That is, if Howard Dean even remains in the party. He may do an end run like John Anderson did when he felt his party wouldn't listen to the voters (as many are arguing the Republicrats aren't) and kept losing elections.

After Anderson went indie, along came Reagan in Anderson's wake, and the rest is history.

You Repulicrats are even slower learning the lessons of recent history than you are reading the writing on the wall. Maybe.

For reals, though. Dean stands nothing to lose by deciding to go indie, and make common cause with Nader. The Republicrats will NEVER nominate him. He is too much in the bulldog mode, like Nader.

Republicrats like nice, sedate, refined, intellectual, millionaire noblesse oblige sorts of candidates. With a pedigree of some sort, like Al Gore had. Clinton was a Republicrat anomaly, and his crude Bubba-esque image isn't one the Republicrats want to see reflected back at them when they preen themselves in the pop culture mirror.

They loved Slick Willie about as much they did P Diddy and Eminem this year, eh?

Wouldn't that just get the Republicrats' undies in a bundle if Dean went indie on 'em?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:57 PM

Oh christ Ron. Sure, my math was wrong and your boys won 3 of the last nine presidential races.

And have lost everything else to the Republicans.

Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:58 PM

"The purpose of a political party is to win elections"

How utterly sad! And how tragically true in these corrupted times. That is the whole sum and substance of what political parties are about, and it's a wholly false premise upon which to base leadership and public service.

The true purpose of leadership and public service should be to SERVE the people, not to win elections. As long as the purpose is merely to win elections the public will be lied to, defrauded, and robbed.

Was it the purpose of Joan of Arc to win a popularity contest? Was it the purpose of Jesus or Gandhi to do so? No. It was their purpose to serve and free their people, even unto the death. That is the only purpose of honest and true leadership. Leadership is a form of self-sacrifice in the interest of the common people...not a competitive game in which to win and hold the privileges of power.

And that is why both the Democrats and Republicans have damned themselves, in my opinion. They're basically in it (at the top level, I mean) for their own gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM

Sorry, that was Nerd counting. Ron was going off on his "progressive right" demonization tangent (hoping against hope still?) to try and tarnish the progressive left by trying to get Republicrats think we are the same as the Republican right.

Lobotomies for Republicans AND Republicrats!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:02 PM

There are two interestsing columns in the New York Times today. At least I assume they ran today in that paper as they were carried today by our local newspaper. One (Headline:Democrats shouldn't pander to latest whims) was written by Bob Herbert, obviously a liberal, and the other (Headline:Liberals have lost touch with a nation unfamiliar to them)was written by David Brooks, a conservative.

I agree with Mick that James Carville is a savvy guy when it comes to politics, but IMO he is nowhere as savvy as Karl Rove.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:04 PM

GUEST, can't you get ANYTHING right? It was me, not Ron, who corrected your faulty memory. Geez, maybe you should stop posting these wacky diatribes if you can't get basic facts and names right.


NAAH! We'd miss ya too much, GUEST!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:04 PM

Oops. Cross-posted with ya!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:05 PM

"Savvy" isn't the word I'd use for Rove--knowledgeable is one thing--but the unethical and dirty tricks components that are SOP to him aren't reflected in that word.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:09 PM

I agree Doug, ain't nobody doin' the dirty better than Rove! He knows and does cutthroat politics better than anybody, even Carville and his Slick Willie.

Which makes him all the scarier in my book.

Now, what do y'all think about Dean going indie and joining forces with the Naderites? Man, I bet that idea makes the ABBs turn a ghastly shade of green and shake uncontrollably!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

Guest, I'm not sure what you are missing. I am NOT trying to demonize liberals at all. "Progressives" is a term you have attempted to co-op for your own terms. Historically, in the U.S. at least, the term "progressive" has been linked to the labor movement AND the communist party. While I know that is not the case anymore, there is still a stigma that won't be overcome.

Look up the term "progressive" and you will see what the real definition is.   "Progressives" can exist on both sides of the political spectrum. The progressives on the right did make an impact in the republican party.

You are a liberal. Be proud of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM

Rove is ruthless, but bloodthirsty on the verge of fanatacism. He has no compunction, moral scruples or conscience. The means are always justified by the probelmatic ends they serve. This makes him a more destructive force in general than Carville.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:18 PM

Don't forget Roger Ailes.

Subject: Thank God!! Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

Conme to think of it, if the choice falls between Kerry and Hillary, I'll take Kerry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:22 PM

No, of course you aren't trying to demonize liberals Ron, because you ARE one! You are trying to demonize me by demonizing the progressive left with which I stand, because you are afraid we will rock your safe Republicrat world even worse than the Republicans. Which is why you want to talk about me, rather than the idea of Deaniacs uniting with Naderites and kicking your patsy liberal asses all the way down to meet your devil in Georgia.

If the progressive left becomes ascendant over the wimp ass liberals, the way they did in the last Gilded Age, you guys are going to look like the pathetic sellouts you truly are! Everyone will see behind the curtain that the Great and Powerful OZ ain't so great! That not only is the emperor naked, but he is meaner than a hungry goat and buck ugly besides!

Now Ron, I know you are trying to upset me by telling me I'm a liberal. But that doggie don't hunt round here.

And as to your definition of "progressive" I think it's back to high school American history class for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:44 PM

Man, I must have REALLY scared you Republicrats with the idea of Dean going indie and joining forces with Nader. My idea appears to have shut the whole lot of you up!

A first!

Hey Bobert--I may be on to something here! Maybe we need to start writing letters to the Dean and Nader boys telling 'em about our new Purple Progressives strategy!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:09 PM

OK, so here is how I figure it. We got the Naderites. We join up with the Deaniacs, the Greens, the Kucinichics (or is that Kucinichites?), the Wellstonian/Feingoldian/Harkin Middle Americans, the environmentalists who haven't defected to the Greens, and throw in a whole lot of folks of color and mixed races who feel no one is representing them, and give em all money to run for public office!

We ignore the racist south, brahmin Boston and illiberal New York, and we'll take it all!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM

Oh all right, we'll let your Wes Ginny join Bobert, but only because you're on the good guy side. Start working on the P-vine.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM

Guest, you are too paranoid!   I'm not talking about YOU, nor am I trying to DEMONIZE you.   Re-read my posts. I am not the one that needs to go back to history class. So your crack wasn't an attack on me? If you are an example of what you call "progressives", then you are going to remain hidden in a cave somewhere. You have yet to show a single way in which your "progressives" are going to accomplish things. You've given a lot of rhetoric about how Naderites,Deaniacs, the Greens, the Kucinichics, the Wellstonians, Feingoldians, and Harkins are going to join up but you haven't shown us how. Put up or shut up!   You say the "Republicats" are in shambles, read your own posts!   This isn't a fantasy land. Give us examples!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:25 PM

GUEST, you don't know Howard. We're not shutting up because we're scared, we're just perplexed at your propenisty to grasp at straws. Howard's goal is to transform the party, not marginalize it. Howard's a very practical guy. His goal is to get things done, not make ideological statements. Think about it: you want to have an effect on the nation. Do you begin with a party that already has 44% of the Senate, or start from zero? Do you begin with the party that got 48% of the presidential vote, or start from zero?   

Howard is right now deciding whether to go for Terry McAuliffe's job with the DNC. I prsonally hope he won't, but the very fact that he is considering it suggests he's not jumping ship anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM

"The purpose of a political party is to win elections"

Nothing like the whole truth. And in some circumstances not at all.

Parties exist primarily to develop a vision of how a country could be better run, and to get other people to accept that vision as something desirable and possible. If some other party steals the ideas, and wins an election instead of some other guys, and puts them into practice, that's a victory.

In some ways it isn't so much that winning elections is what politcal,parties are about in the first place, you could almost say that it's a sad duty forced on them, as the only way to get the policies put into practice. Rather like a songwriter who is forced to sing the songs themselves, because no one else will sing them, or sing them right, anyway.

Of course ambitious politicians don't often see it that way, and that's one reason why noone should ever wholly trust them. And party activists can get sucked into thinking purely about how the home team can score, and that's why you get the kind of stuff we've been having from one of our nameless GUESTS who seems to have some difficulty in seeing the wood for the trees. (True enough, there are some pretty unsavoury trees about, but...)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:36 PM

John Anderson was a very practical guy in 1980, when he decided to break with the Republicans too, Nerd. I'm going to wait and see what Dean does. I think it will depend, to a large extent, if and how quickly the progressive left picks up the pieces here and decides to go sit in Nader's tent, or the tent of progressive Democrat with a good deal of clout, like Feingold. Harkin probably doesn't have the pull anymore, after Iowa going red. Feingold kicked ass in Wisconsin, and is a true progressive--even left of Wellstone.

We could build alliances with Western progressives, particularly Native Americans, Latinos, and environmentalists in the Western red states, and start talking about things like universal health care, a living wage, and not having to send your kids into the military to get them health care and post-secondary education, and you've got some heat building up! We'd then join the northeast, the midwest, and the west to west coast progressives, and bam! We'd have it, racist southerners be damned and their Toby Keith worshipping, NASCAR energy resource wasting, Coors lite culture be damned!

Ron, I'm not hiding in a cave. I happen to live in a very progressive Blue-Green state, in a city that is full of people who think a lot like I do, surrounded by rural areas full of progressive leaning Democrats.

That is my world. Funny, isn't it, that you and the Republicrats don't even see us on your radar!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

Kerry got the second largest voter turnout in American history. Why shouldn't he run? (More votes than Ronald Reagan).

Guest, Liberals are Progressives. Hatred and division, rancor and name-calling are retro.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:58 PM

Right Frank, we all can just get along now, so long as we dance to the Republicrats tune? That dog is certainly done hunting after last Tuesday!

But Tuesday is history, and now it's the future we need to be talking about, not the past, which is where both the stuck-in-the-past regressive Republicans and the stuck-in-the-past Republicrats are coming from.

It's a brand new day, Frank. Kerry has already faded into the sunset, along with the eastern establishment that everyone in the nation is fed up with...

So Nerd, you got 44% of the crooks in your tent. That doesn't exactly make me want to join you. What else you got?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:58 PM

Guest - I don't know why you think we are not seeing you. As I've said over and over but you fail to listen, I do think that issues that you are bringing up are important and that you are necessary for progress in this country. Without fringe groups or third parties, many of the great social issues would not have been brought about.

Where we disagree, and correct me if I am wrong in my assessment, progressives feel that they will get someone like Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich elected president. (I thought Kucinich was great and I cast my primary vote for him.   I wish he made a bigger impact at the convention, which does show how the party has been co-opted). These candidates serve a purpose, and they will bring about change, but they won't be sitting in the Oval office to do that.

I've been closer to the progressive left then you would ever believe, but what I see are dedicated people with determination to make change. What I also see are individualists who do not work in a political environment. Changing the system is not as easy as you make it sound in your posts. This isn't an Andy Hardy "let's put on a show" and everyone makes a few posters, attends a rally and we have a "progressive"(read-liberal) president.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:19 PM

No Ron, you are the delusional one if you think progressives think we can get a radical left progressive candidate elected. I have never believed Nader could be elected for one second. YOU might think I thought that because I supported his candidacy. But I don't vote or think conventionally, like you and the other ABBs especially do.

You are right to say that many on the progressive left don't participate in the electoral system. They rarely do, unless they feel that by doing so they can get things moving in a positive direction by influencing the system from the outside.

And Ron, I know that changing the system isn't easy. But I don't believe the system is changeable from within. Reform if you are lucky, but that usually doesn't happen working within the political system either. The system is the status quo behemoth, it rarely can be changed, which is why eventually all political systems get brought down, as happened with the Soviet system. The American system isn't far behind, IMO.

I never said changing things was easy. But I don't think it is as difficult as you are making it out to be. There are a lot of things that are much harder to deal with than political change, Ron. But first you have to change YOUR heart and mind, not everybody else's.

Changing hearts and minds is really difficult. Which is why I try capturing hearts and minds with ideas, hope, and some humor, rather than imposing doctrine and party lines upon them, and "should" strategies, and forcing people to change their minds against their better judgment just to conform with the mainstream. The latter is what I see Republicrats trying to do. Trying to make people conform to THEIR way of thinking, rather than capturing peoples' imaginations, their hopes, and their aspirations and showing them a way to remain true to themselves instead of selling out to conform.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:24 PM

Kerry is doing the right thing. The Democrats need to start preparing for 2008 now. If Kerry starts positioning himself and building up his resume then others will be encouraged to do the same. Democrat front runners need to make themselves known to the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:33 PM

Hey Nerd, what do you suppose Dean will do if the Republicrat leadership locks him out of the DNC job? Any ideas? I don't read any of the Dean lists. My pardner was a Deaniac this year too, but has been too busy at work to follow the lists.

Got your thumb on the pulse?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM

Guest, I think we are just reading each other the wrong way. I agree with 90% of what you said in your last post. I have to say, this is the first post from you that I (emphasis on I) feel is more subtance than B.S. Your heart and mind is in the right place, and I do applaud you.

The one area we disgree with is on changing the system from within. While I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment about changing the hopes, aspirations and imaginations of people, but I do feel that people need to do SOMETHING more than just THINK differently. Action creates change.

You also said one thing - "Changing hearts and minds is really difficult. Which is why I try capturing hearts and minds with ideas, hope, and some humor, rather than imposing doctrine and party lines upon them, and "should" strategies, and forcing people to change their minds against their better judgment just to conform with the mainstream."    Terrific! I think that is a great summary of what needs to happen in world, but I do want to point out that in our discussions you have gone against that thought. Please do not shut out the ideas of others. You were very eloquent above and thought like that CAN affect people.   But many of your posts have put up walls around you and turned off many of us.   You should be yourself, but don't forget that there are others.   

Keep it up! I hope you will share more thoughts like the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:03 PM

That's right Ron, I do sometimes put up barriers, espcially in the presence of people who keep saying the same stupid things over and over ad nauseum.

And I for sure tune out the shouting of certain others in Mudcat constantly. In the wake of this year's election, my psychic killfile is rapidly expanding.

Most of what gets said in these political threads (including a lot of what I say) is same old shit static, and comes from the same people again and again. They happen to be the most strident Mudcatters, who tend to be pretty close minded and entrenched in their political views. In some ways that describes me, but mostly it doesn't. I'm very comfortable with my place on the political spectrum, and don't feel insecure about it, the way mainstream folks into conformist electoral politics seem to be. That is my perception,sure. I don't expect that the people I think fall in that category will ever like me or respect my opinions, so I ignore a lot of them, and don't really give a shit what they or the Mudcat community cabal thinks of me.

You know, before the election, I never would have dreamed of Deaniacs uniting with Naderites, but today--voila! Crazy idea? Yeah, maybe. But if you can't creatively think out loud and dream up new ideas, all you do is argue and rehash the same old shit over and over, which is what has been happening in all these post-election threads.

Where's your new ideas Ron? How about all you other ABB Republicrats? What's shaking with you ABBs? Thoughts on what you did wrong, right, didn't end up mattering in the long run?

See, the problem I have is none of you have admitted you got things wrong, and I see absolutely no self-reflection, no self-examination, which means you are doomed to repeat yourselves in 4 more years.

I don't think the folks in Iraq can wait that long, fellas.

So! You boys going to join with the movements to the left of Kerry, like the anti-war movement? You all claim to be anti-war, hate war, blah blah blah but I don't see any of you putting your money where your mouths are! Are you, in the wake of the Kerry defeat, truly moving in that direction, much less taking any action?

Hell, I went to my first post-election anti-war demonstration yesterday! What are you guys doing to stop the war and bring the troops home?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

Oh, I think we have admitted that we got things wrong. True, a lot of the retrospection has been centered on what Bush's crew did right, but I think there are a number of things we did wrong and it is being admitted.

The idea of "anybody but Bush" was the wrong approach. We should have taken the tone of "nobody else but Kerry". Kerry spent too much time going over his war record and not enough plans on how he was going to resolve THIS war we are faced with.   He worried too much about image and not enough about substance.

Kerry was arrogant about the South. He stated early on that a candidate could win without them.   We have left the south stagnate and failed to create change within the "dixiecrats".

A new candidate will need to get a message out. I think Guest mentioned Russ Feingold. I would love to see him take a run for it. However, it is way to early to choose a candidate. What needs to happen now is substantial change to our culture and creating voices in the media that gets the message out.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:27 PM

And your new ideas for the future Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:31 PM

Rove is ruthless, but bloodthirsty on the verge of fanatacism. He has no compunction, moral scruples or conscience. The means are always justified by the probelmatic ends they serve.

Yup, that's why all them "Christians" voted for Dumbya & the Repubs- they sure have the moral high road. All Georgie Boy has to do is yell "hallelujah" every so often & the dumbass voters fall for it.

Oh, ye generation of morons.....

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

GUEST, Dean can always practice medicine if he doesn't get the DNC job.    Or work with the PACs he inspired, like Democracy for America. Or he can join Al Gore and set up a liberal cable TV outlet, or do any number of things. He's not one of these compulsive types whose only joy comes from being a politician. I don't think he'll take it personally or feel "shut out" if he doesn't get the job. Many good people, including some of his own campaign staff, may be vying with him for the job, so it's not something he can just take if he wants it, and he's aware of that.

By the way, you seem very eager to attribute any form of wrongdoing, like "shutting out" Howard Dean for a very competitive job, to the Democrats.

I think most people would argue that Anderson ceased to be a practical guy when he went indie and ceased to be a political contender. The question is, does Dean want to go the route of Anderson, and hand the election to the person least like him (actually, Reagan would likely have won anyway), or do what he did this year, and work for the candidate most like him. As you say, there isn't any point in us speculating. We'll all see what he decides to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM

This is very simple. Let this rude jerk continue to rant. And we will see how effective they are at organizing. If history is any judge, there will be much flash, much talk about "new" voters, and then a disappointing turnout. At that time this GUEST will bitch about "the machine". But this GUEST will have done nothing about it but complain about what is wrong.

But, let us remember this thread, in fact all these threads. That is so we can bring them up and show them to this idiot later. And one more thing. Paul Wellstone would have thought your thinking faulty. Not your issues, but your lack of solutions. One thing that the good Senator, may he rest in peace, was good at was consensus building.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:45 PM

"They happen to be the most strident Mudcatters, who tend to be pretty close minded and entrenched in their political views. In some ways that describes me, but mostly it doesn't. "

In every way, this describes you, GUEST.

How many anti-Kerry, anti-Democrat threads are currently running, started by you?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:49 PM

Hint: the answer is three: this one, the "Democrats Lost" thread and the "Progressive Spin" thread.

But GUEST isn't stident!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

My ideas?   Talk more for one. It became obvious with this election how many people do not discuss issues.   Simple discussions about issues such as the war and the economy are not as common as one might think.

Listen more for another. It is easy to become self-absorbed and put blinders on to the world around us. It is easy to share ones view, but is just as important to listen to WHY people think the way they do.   To me, a woman's right to choose is obvious, but why are so many people against it?

Make my voice heard. NO, I don't mean my radio show - although I have always tried to give opportunities to songwriters to share their opinions through song. I mean with my children and community. It is too easy to sit back and gripe about issues on places like Mudcat, but it is another to make your opinions heard.   I will ALWAYS vote. I still believe that is the system that will make the change.

I am far from a "perfect" person. In many ways I have conformed, as we all have. That is not a sin.   How our lives affect others is ultimately the way we judge ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

I think for the woodshedding you boys deserve, you should be required to read CounterPunch for the last weeks worth of articles.

Then come back and talk. As it is, the thread is all Kerrycrats all the time. Nothing new, same old shit.

Eat the anti-war movement's dust, boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:05 PM

Yeah, but what about the points made? You never respond to them, you just say shit like Eat the anti-war movement's dust, boys. And this has what to do with the issue? Have fun, sweetie. It won't be forever, and then us "boys" will come back and remind you of your assertions. But you will then try and twist those.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:19 PM

Hey Nerd, if I didn't say it right out, let me say it now: I'm as strident as they come! But you see, I'm not threatened by being perceived as strident, because I know there are many more dimensions to me than that politically. I'm strident and passionate about what I believe in, true. But I'm also pretty thoughtful and reflective, and I'm an information junkie. When I get new information that tests the old beliefs, I re-examine the beliefs, rather than dismiss the new information. I think the Mudcat Kerrycrats do that the other way around.

BTW Nerd, I wouldn't say that Anderson's move was a brilliant one for him personally--it was political suicide, but I don't think he cared, because like Nader he wanted to be seen as a man of principle. But I do think his run to the left of his party, at a time when the party was moving hard right, struck a chord with a lot of voters who were energized by him in both parties. The Republicans quickly saw that, and adjusted--in the very same election--in a way they weren't able to do when Ross Perot appeared in his indie end run in 1992.

The end result in 1980, was the Republicans were able to make a self-correction vis a vis their base, and Anderson went off to rot in middle of the road Republicrat oblivion. Anderson, ironically, ended up greasing the skids for Reagan, who was the most right wing of all the Republican contenders in 1980, ie Bush, Dole, and Baker.

The "moderate Republicans" were split between Bush & Baker, and by veering left and indie, Anderson took the true moderates with him, the rest of the party swung right and got behind the only true conservative running that year, Reagan, who just happened to know enough about acting to tell people the stories they wanted to hear, which made him the most popular choice that year. Hence his label "The Great Communicator". He wasn't a great communicator, just a marginally good political storyteller. Actor training does that for a guy.

Bobby Kennedy was able to pull off a similar sort of manuever to Reagan's, once LBJ announced he wasn't running. In fact, I think Reagan, who was a secret Kennedy worshipper IMO, took that page right out of Bobby Kennedy's playbook.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:25 PM

No, not forever, but 4 years minus 1 week.

Many of you will have no skin left on your hands after all that hand wringing.

A lot can happen...........................

None of you are even considering just who the next Republican will be.

He just might be bigger than anybody.

Way too soon to tell. but they sure have a lot more choices and a lot less division in their ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

I also don't trace this current incarnation of Republican power to Goldwater, even though I know most pundits do. McCain is in the Goldwater mold, but Bush ain't by a longshot. Which is why people like McCain better than they do the Bush dynasty. I think lots of people held their noses and voted for Bush, because he was the only Republican to vote for. But I don't think the Republican base thinks much of him or Cheney. You see, I think Bush's exploitation of the Christian conservative base is phony as a three dollar bill. He is a big business Republican conservative, doing what he is told by the Rove, and is simply exploiting the social conservative wing (the Bubba voters) of his base.

I trace this current incarnation of big business Republican conservatives in power to Nixon, right on down to the Poindexters, Negropontes, Rumsfelds, and Cheneys. Nixon's men all. Nixon didn't give a shit about religion, and nor do the men serving Bush. They are all big business conservatives in politics to marry their goals to a big government that serves them. Reagan actually believed in the social conservative values he espoused, but his vice president didn't and was the Nixonian heir apparent of the big business lobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh God Kerry Plans to Run in 2008
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

Kerry can plan to run all he likes - that doesn't mean he's going to get the party nomination.