BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 07:22 PM

Damn! I had my heart set on that, but I was on the road today... (sob!)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

if that is what evolution is, bill, then creationists believe in evolution!. I should have thought it is more properly natural selection.evolutionism generally makes that equivalence.
as I said before the beetles are still beetle after countless generations observed.diverting to bombadiers does not change that.
I did read the links [critic take note!] ,and maybe got the gist of it.how about you bill,did you grasp it all?.
it is just as well that I never said anything about the bombadiers and at this stage I have no idea if the creationist claims about it are wrong.
as to examples of stasis ,two spring to mind, at this late hour!,-alligator fossil much the same as modern[on CMI site a few days ago],and the wolemie pine ,only known by fossilized example till discovered more recently, just about the same as each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 10:20 PM

Why would isolated examples of "stasis" (I think cockroaches are another) prove that evolution isn't the norm rather than the exception?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 11:04 PM

"if that is what evolution is, bill, then creationists believe in evolution!. I should have thought it is more properly natural selection."

Charles Darwin certainly believed in natural selection it was part of the original title of his book. "Natural selection" was his major contribution to science.

From the Wiki article on the book....

On the Origin of Species, published on 24 November 1859, is a work of scientific literature by Charles Darwin which is considered to be the foundation of evolutionary biology. Its full title was


On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 01:45 AM

Philosophically speaking, I am far more attracted to the idea of life being a (continually) creative process than life being a struggle. People who think life is a struggle are inclined to fight with other people, conquer other people, conquer Nature, and generally bring about incredible suffering and disaster...while people who think life is a creative journey are responsible for almost every positive advance mankind has made (other than our spectacular achievements in the art or war....meaning....killing each other...which some might consider "positive", I suppose...but I consider it a misuse of our extraordinary talents and abilities.)

I also regard evolution as a creative process much more than "a battle for survival". Thus my disagreement with Mr Darwin is not that I am opposed to the idea of evolution...not at all!...but that I am opposed to the idea that it's all about survival. I think it's about the search for perfection.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:13 AM

"The real question is, Bill...do the genetic mutations occur in a random fashion...with the most favorable changes being perpetuated by survival....or do they occur as a result of an actual intention on some level of consciousness? In other words, is evolution an intelligent process or is it a random process?"

If there is one process that is the crowning glory of all non-goal-oriented processes, it's evolution. There is never an end product (even after four billion years). For every "successful" mutation there are millions of failures. The evolutionary tree is a mass of dead ends and extinctions. Miscopying produces freaks, monsters and non-viable offspring, all of which die out. Evolution is the story of extremely rare successes wallowing in a vast ocean of a myriad of disasters (if that really was you, God, get a grip, old boy!). Every mutation that ever happened can be explained by the laws of nature. There is no mysterious hand, and anyone who thinks there is, in the light of all this evidence, is seriously deluded. In fact, the declaration that God's hand is behind evolution is just about the biggest intellectual copout I can think of. By the way, evolution by natural selection is anything but a "random process" and, if you still say it is, you are displaying your ignorance of the science behind it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:37 AM

I'm not suggesting a separate God who is tinkering with creatures and plants, etc, like a cosmic player playing a big computer game, Steve.

I'm suggesting that the indwelling intelligence that is ALIVE in each living thing has a tendency to steer it in directions which meet that living thing's desire to improve itself. That, to me, is evolution.

Yes, mistakes are also made, and mistakes lead to dead ends and sometimes to the destruction of the organism.

When you have intelligence at all, and can make decisions, mistakes are an ever-present risk, aren't they? But improvement is likewise an ever-present possibility, and therein lies the challenge of life.

You keep talking about "God" the same way a religious fundamentalist does: as if "God" was "out there" somewhere being the controller. (And you oppose that notion. Well, so do I.)

I am talking about something that exists innately within all of us and is NOT outside of us controlling us...but which IS what we are in the most intimate sense...the very life force and consciousness that moves in us and has its being in us and in everything else that is alive. We temporarily carry that life force and express it during our short physical lives here. Some of us realize that it is holy. Some of us don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM

That's just fantasy. And evolution has nothing to do with the living thing being steered in order to improve itself or anything like that. First, evolution is not about individual improvement at all. Second, there are no goals in evolution in any case. Your notion is fanciful and whimsical but it has nothing whatever to do with evolution. I bet even Snail would agree with me there. Unshackling ourselves from evidence-free notions of either inner or outer forces doing the driving is what the beginning of good science is all about. Enjoy your imaginative ramblings but don't confuse them with evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM

How do you know it's fantasy?

You assume it is. Your assumption may be in error.

What we really have is a very basic philosophical difference, Steve. We differ philosophically in what we think life is primarily about, and these last few posts have clarified that very well.

You say "there are no goals in evolution". I say the exact opposite, that evolution has very clear goals...that it is an inborn impulse toward perfection. There is no way to prove that either of us is wrong in what we say.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:22 PM

I think you are both right. The mating impulse and contests among males is an "impulse toward perfection" if you look at it that way. Females will choose the mate that best exemplifies the species.


But from a mundane point of view it is the opposite of evolution. When females choose a certain type of mate based on specific actions or coloring or whatever then the species is less likely to vary and evolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:34 PM

Yes, it's interesting that on the one hand there is an impulse toward conformity (repeating whatever seems familiar)...and on the other hand there is an impulse toward innovation (seeking "newness").

These two impulses appear to contradict one another, but they are both present in most human beings to varying degrees. In politics this has been expressed in the past as the "conservative" viewpoint (loyalty to past norms) and the "liberal" viewpoint (flexibility)...but those 2 words have become so bastardized in the present day political arena that they have pretty much lost whatever meaning they once had.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:48 PM

well frogprince,-assuming I get the import of your question!
firstly, I am not so sure that the examples of stasis are that isolated.
I am aware that darwinists will claim that if something hasn't changed over deep time till today, then it did not need to ,to survive.
assuming that is the correct understanding, then either that stasis survived through many changes in environment ,or it did change and woumd up the same again.
I presume the 2nd is not in the frame ,but it seems to me that positing no change in the organism while selective pressures kept changing seems very unlikely, but might well be entertained and embraced due to philosophical bias.
I am open to any [constructive.and of substance] deficiencies in my reasoning should that be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:56 PM

Pete- I should have added in my post a direct answer to your "beetles are still beetle after countless generations" remark, because we have gone thru this before.

It is important...VERY important... to understand that the theory of Evolution does not claim that beetles, as a genus, MIGHT 'turn into' some other species!! Nor do alligators turn into giraffes...etc. You keep using that general idea as if it shows something, but it is a *trivial* fact. It is a 'straw man' in the argument.... and it is a complete misunderstanding of how evolution is claimed to operate.
On the other hand, when a batch of beetles is hatched and crawls off to look for food, it is the case that some can be lighter in color, and some darker, and this can affect how well they survive- depending on which trees they arrive at. Now - the question is...what is happening to give them variations in color?

Read this page, which mentions several species, including the Peppered Moth (which I may have meant instead of a beetle).

The point is, the color change is genetic! 'Something' happened to cause a change in a gene. Successive changes can make some very different moths..or beetles. A moth will not become a beetle, nor a beetle a moth....but in 40 million years, either a beetle OR a moth (that is, ONE LINE of moths) 'may' gradually end up as something that is not really a moth! Other 'lines' of that original moth may still look very similar to the original.
This is how it works! And you & I are not the result of an ape 'changing' into a human.... we are the end result of ONE line of descendants of ONE proto-ancestor of BOTH apes & humans.

Yes... I know I have now asserted exactly what you wish to deny with your various creationist points & claims... but all my assertions make sense as they are checked and integrated by many branches of science. Darwin didn't know one-thousandth of the details WE now know... he merely saw superficial indications which he could not ignore and wrote about them. The details have been revised for 150 years as we gain more knowledge about HOW it happens.

Scholars have also tried to revise certain data about the Bible based on new information about:...its language, translation¹, authors, missing parts, historical references, contradictions...etc.... but there is little cooperation among various sects & religions which have their mind sets and egos wrapped up in claims about *truth* based on interpretations of one part of one translation of one text...........and this is why the idea of "non-overlapping_magisteria" is tempting. Science & religion simply cannot agree because religion, in order to BE religious, cannot allow certain criteria to be applied. (This even applies to 'liberal' religions as well as fundamentalist religions.. just to a different degree).


1.(it has been shown clearly that translation was inaccurate in describing Mary as a 'virgin', for the original Aramaic meant merely a 'young girl', and Mary was evidently fairly young when she was married.) King James' hired scholars just said it in such compelling language that it was assumed to be... ummmm.. gospel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 01:24 PM

" I say the exact opposite, that evolution has very clear goals...that it is an inborn impulse toward perfection. "

Oh my, LH... Gould has a LOT to say about this idea. This is a classic concept with clear historical roots. You really should read the books of his I have mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:14 PM

Hmmm. I might do so eventually, Bill, but my reading list is pretty long already.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:03 PM

Four billion years of evolution has led to no end-points save the ones involving dead ends and extinctions and billions of useless or malevolent miscopies of genetic information. Arguably, not even improvements. The suggestion that evolution has some kind of goal is pure nonsense and reveals that you have a good deal of studying to do. You are about as advanced in your knowledge of evolution as pete. Please take that as the insult it is intended to be.

What we really have is a very basic philosophical difference, Steve. We differ philosophically in what we think life is primarily about, and these last few posts have clarified that very well.

Covering up your sheer ignorance of this matter by pretending that your deluded standpoint is some kind of philosophical position is ludicrous and risible. Even more so considering that my position is one of an understanding of overwhelming scientific evidence and nothing to do with "philosophy". You are, to put it plainly, full of utter bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:32 AM

I'm not concerned about reacting to your insults, Steve. Just how important do you think the chit chat on this forum is?

About as important as...a dog barking? Yeah, maybe about at that level. Certainly not any more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 02:40 AM

The degree of importance in these chit chats works two ways though. Of course Steve gets exasperated by misguided analysis. I do when applied to subjects I hold dear as can be seen on some other threads.

Some feel that sky blue thought drift and Devils advocate has a place and throwing in ideas to see if they float helps your own understanding based on the reaction.

Conversely, some get angry when others don't take these debates seriously enough.

Twas ever thus.

Me? Make it a pint.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:49 PM

I'm not concerned about reacting to your insults, Steve.

Well, thing is I wan't actually insulting you. I was demolishing you. I know how hard it is to take demolition and pretend, instead, that it's a mere insult. You see, Hawk, you have no idea about evolution. All you do is come up with some half-arsed fanciful notion about it and plaster it all over with your own faux-philosophical, aimless ramblings. Don't worry, you're far from alone. I advise you to take time to read up on evolution. As things go at present, you're struggling badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 08:16 PM

wasn't yeah innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM

My first glance at this thread.

I was expecting something about the rapture of sexual pleasures but have found only rude noises.

Goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM

I was expecting something about the rapture of sexual pleasures but have found only rude noises.

Same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

Gee, I always thought them were pleasurable sounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

The concept of 'the rapture' it seems was first invented in the 17th century from one of the manifold translations in the collection of old writings known as the bible.

There's a number of other examples of inventions/modifications to 'god's word' or 'scripture' as adherents like to call it.

Within my own living memory, christians, esp catholics, were forbidden to eat meat on Fridays or they'd go straight to hell

A pope changed this rule so eating meat was allowed.

However, I don't know if this same pope enabled those previously sent to hell for breaking the old rule to leave hell & go somewhere else - anyone know?

Another example is clerical celibacy apparently ok for clergy to marry until the 4th century then banned afterwards.

St Christopher got the sack too!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM

yes bill, I am quite aware that Darwinism posits that only one line out of several may lead beyond the bounds of observable natural selection in a given organism.
for discussion purposes that might seem a good argument. it is also very convenient.it cannot be proved or disproved.
however it still means that for the many examples of stasis, you have to posit that they remained much the same despite changing selective pressures.
I read the link, but it only seemed to be describing natural selection.to infer that creationists don't accept that is your straw man.
and that moth thing - is that the same one where they glued moths on to tree trunks!?
either way, it is nothing that evidences mud or moth to man evolution.
so how do you overcome that?
you just assert again that all the lines of science converge on evidencing the evolutionary pathway.
if what that article details is evolution, then that makes me and most creationists evolutionists!
that's partly why I put an "ism" on the end of evolution.
natural selection is proven- evolutionism is,nt.

this might be my last post for a week as we are on holiday from tomorrow.   regards   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:42 PM

I am quite aware that Darwinism posits that only one line out of several may lead beyond the bounds of observable natural selection in a given organism...

...however it still means that for the many examples of stasis, you have to posit that they remained much the same despite changing selective pressures.

There you go. A man chuntering on about something he has absolutely no idea about. Utterly meaningless drivel from start to finish. Go, Bill. He's your baby.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:06 PM

...or maybe this one-
Aramaic was spoken by NT jews but the gospels were written in koina greek'.
matthew 1 v23. ..virgin..AV
from a gk commentary- "parthenos..it translates the heb word,,,a young lady w. high standing and noble qualities"
in that culture therefore "virgin" is reasonable.
this is the same word in luke 1 v27,and if you follow the passage to v34 you find mary sayng to the angel !"how can this be,seeing I know[sexually]not a man.
I fully realize bill, that you don't believe this, but please do not infer that the bible does not teach it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:33 PM

Christ on a bloody bike...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 08:37 PM

Ah... I ought triple check on exactly which languages were used when... I do know that a low form of what my history professor called "dockyards Greek" was the way the Christian scriptures were commonly spread in Rome.

"Virgin" may be 'reasonable' under some cultural interpretations, but not in others.... and the translation of what Mary is supposed to have said is does not say she continued as a virgin as a 'married' woman with Joseph.

(Note.. I say 'supposed' because it is not clear who & how recorded her conversation with an angel. These are the things that simply cannot be proven.)

and enjoy your holiday.....I will be in my workshop a lot this next week

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:43 PM

Bill,


I think that if you accept that she had a conversation with an angel telling her not to worry about being preggers because God did it, then the vrigin part is not much of a stretch.

:-)

Have a great vacation pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 02:31 AM

The results of being pregnant would be one hell of a stretch if she was a virgin.

After all these posts we are at last coming to the nub. When a literalist accepts that different translations from different languages can mean different things, we get closer to being able to see where this is coming from. Factor in the art of borrowing from earlier traditions to appear relevant to those you are trying to convert and we get the Bible.

So the only thing I don't get is, taking the above into account, why otherwise rational people defend the absurd notions. No need. As a moral guide, you could do worse (so long as you don't try the disgusting bits towards the front half of the book) and as a historical document showing how beautiful the English language was at the time of James I, it is of linguistic interest and I am sure, beauty. Those who seek to modernise the words are missing an important point.

It isn't the fascinating concept of how people used to think that is an issue where the Bible is concerned, its the insistence of some that it should guide How society thinks. That's another cauldron of porpoises.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:12 AM

mmmm boiled porpoise mmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 10:07 AM

"...why otherwise rational people defend the absurd notions..."

Because humans have to ability to suspend rationality at will if it suits some deeply held idea.... whether it be a childhood teaching, adult prejudice, cultural 'norm'...etc.
Look around you at the dozens of ways rationality is suspended in daily, simple ideas & acts. Simple superstitions, personal habits about food (eating things that you KNOW are bad for you), taking chances in crossing streets...(rationalizing that "I will be careful, and I am nimble")... it goes on.
There are **NONE** of us who are entirely rational on all things at all times, and no army of psychiatrists can either explain or cure the myriad ways our 'higher' thinking abilities manage to convolute and rearrange themselves in order to defend what others may call "absurd notions".

An American columnist, Sydney J. Harris, used to do an occasional piece where he'd define attitudes in terms of viewpoint... as in:

"I have the courage of my convictions. YOU are a bit stubborn. HE is a hardheaded fanatic."

How to approach the someone who is using what YOU feel is "absurd notions"? First, you MUST be able to comprehend how they got them and whether they are serious. My ex-wife, (a brilliant genius on some things) used to use the heel of her hand in the bathtub drain to "make the water go down quicker". The 'sound' made her 'feel' like it worked, and she had done it as a child. A gentle, short explanation about how any pressure she added to the process was negated by the time she had the exit covered was all it took to convince her of the waste of time. I very much doubt that calling it an "absurd notion" and telling her she was being ridiculous would have helped.

I FULLY understand how religious ideas...and many cultural ideas ...were instilled in human history...and unlike bathtub drains, cannot directly be addressed and/or disproven. I do know that insults seldom produce the desired response. (Jean Redpath, the Scottish singer, once said: "Did you ever notice how, when you have a heavy accent, people YELL AT YOU S-L-O-W-L-Y?")... a similar, useless attempt to deal with a situation.
Yes... I know how frustrating it can be when you are SURE you have explained it clearly and someone seems to just be unWILLING to comprehend. I have a dozen topics where that happens. I can either: A)go away and give up,B)YELL AT THEM SLOWLY..(with insults), or C)keep patiently trying in hopes that my basic logic is gradually seeping in, whether it shows or not. D,E,F?? maybe...but most other attempts are only variations on A,B &C. In my case, because of my training in logic & philosophy, it suits me to practice my explanations.

"..and who knows, perhaps the horse will learn to sing."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 11:51 AM

""You say "there are no goals in evolution". I say the exact opposite, that evolution has very clear goals...that it is an inborn impulse toward perfection. There is no way to prove that either of us is wrong in what we say.""

Which one are you LH?

Yoda, or Obi Wan?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:01 PM

""I am far more attracted to the idea of life being a (continually) creative process than life being a struggle.""

That doesn't compute, even empirically.

A simple examination of nature's food chains will disabuse you of that notion. For eveything in nature from single celled organisms to Elephants, and even Mankind, life is a constant struggle to find sufficient resourse to stay alive, while avoiding becoming the means by which your predators keep themselves alive.

It even goes full circle, with the largest and most invulnerable falling prey to the microscopic organisms of disease and parasitism.

If that isn't a struggle, pray tell how it is a creative process?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM

""this is the same word in luke 1 v27,and if you follow the passage to v34 you find mary sayng to the angel !"how can this be,seeing I know[sexually]not a man.
I fully realize bill, that you don't believe this, but please do not infer that the bible does not teach it. ""

No, the bible doesn't teach it!

Luke asserts it in one section of the writings cherry picked for inclusion in the bible..

Was he present, do you think, at this conversation between an archangel (a stretch of imagination) and a woman who gave birth 130 or so years before Luke took up his pen and wrote it down, presenting it as gospel?

Because, if he wasn't there, he knew no more about the truth of the story than you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:34 PM

Luke was about as close to Jaysus, Mary and Jojo as I am to Johannes Brahms. As indeed were the other gospel writers whose tomes were cherrypicked for inclusion. The intellectual switch-off by otherwise intelligent people which must be involved in taking this tosh on board never ceases to amaze me, and I'm no Spock.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:39 AM

The Bible appears to have no porpoise.



Timing of punchlines was never my strong point.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

"The Bible appears to have no porpoise"

WRONG!! It's in the story of Jonah. Everyone keeps refering to Jonah and the whale; but the scripture never says "whale" It has been revealed to me that it was really a gigantic PORPOISE.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:36 PM

Nah, it was a whale shark, a fish, not a mammal. "He made his home in that fish's abdomen..."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 02:52 AM

Assuming the Eastern end of the Mediterranean was cool enough for whales. ..

Presumably the mammal aspect wouldn't have been known.

Unless god told them. He seemed to still have some credit on his phone in those days and spoke to mortals. Not sure how the whales managed to fit in the ark mind. Or are all sea dwellers heathens for saving themselves?

I'm sure that come the rapture, all will be revealed. The first sign by the way is vicars running up credit card bills they have no means of paying off.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM

bill, you are quite correct that mary was only a virgin till she was married, after the birth of Christ.
just as an aside,the period of engagement was considered marriage of sorts ,so that a divorce was required to break the relationship.
I do know that the catholic theology says that mary was always virgin, and I presume that the mention of Jesus brothers in the gospels is cousins,but I speculate.
that is not my take, since matthew 1 v 24f implys ,it seems to me,that josephs sexual distance from his wife was only till Jesus was born.
just out of interest bill, what do you do in your workshop?

as usual steve contributes nothing of merit to the discussion,presumably expecting that his past qualifications as a science teacher are all that is needed to address a discussion.

ok mr tuppenceworth,i know that the idea of whales flapping about on the ark deck makes a humorous image, but it is also a straw man argument.the text tells us it was land creatures and birdlife that perished,except for those directed to the ark,gen 1 v 21-23.
v 22 further defines these as "all those in whose nostrils was the breath of life..."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:44 PM

I take it, Pete, that you're overlooking the fact that Mary & Joseph were Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:06 PM

pete sez this:

as usual steve contributes nothing of merit to the discussion

...then pete sez this:

bill, you are quite correct that mary was only a virgin till she was married, after the birth of Christ.
just as an aside,the period of engagement was considered marriage of sorts ,so that a divorce was required to break the relationship.
I do know that the catholic theology says that mary was always virgin, and I presume that the mention of Jesus brothers in the gospels is cousins,but I speculate.
that is not my take, since matthew 1 v 24f implys ,it seems to me,that josephs sexual distance from his wife was only till Jesus was born.

Bwahahahahahaha! "Sexual distance"! Bwahahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:30 PM

And so laughing at the absurdity of the ark is a straw an argument?

But surely it is just a quaint traditional truth? It isn't as if it actually happened. It all makes a humorous image actually. No Christian I know sees it as any more than a fairy tale, one to be revered and try and see some moral from, but a tale all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM

Pete..in my workshop I mostly make stuff from wood... mostly things like this... that is, woodturnings. I do several craft shows each year.

I read a lot of things about Mary & Joseph and the various opinions regarding what Mary's 'status' was at various times...and also who & what Joseph's status was. The various factions don't seem to agree... even reading the same basic Bible. My concern, as it always is, is that there *IS* continuous basic disagreement about interpretation & translation, and they simply cannot all be correct. THAT situation was the beginning (almost 60 years ago) of my skepticism about the whole story.

I don't know whether you appreciate jokes on the topic, but I once saw on TV a comedian, Emo Phillips, tell a version of this:

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(this was also done with Lutheran references...) ---------------------------------------------------------
I was walking across a bridge one day and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for."

"Like what?" he said.

I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian, Buddhist or Muslim?"

"Christian"

"Me too!" I said "Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant"

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist"

"Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of God"

I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1889, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."

I said, "Die heretic scum!" and pushed him off!
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Pete... there ARE people who think like that about details...including Mary's supposed virginity. It kinda scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:43 PM

For those of us, pete, who believe in the real world, and not magic or miracles, here's the yarn. Mary (allegedly, but we'll let that pass) had a baby called Jesus. There are two possibilities. Nine months before Jesus was born, Joseph shagged Mary. Alternatively, some other bloke shagged Mary. A real bloke, not the Holy Whatever. Thing is, I'm a bit of a Jesus freak. I don't believe those atheists who say Jesus wasn't an historical figure. I can't prove it, but I think Jesus really did exist. As for saying all those wise things, well, we have the word of a bunch of blokes who knew as much about Jesus as I know about Oscar Wilde (similar timescale). And I'll tell you summat. I don't need no virgin birth, miracles, rising from the dead or anything else of that load of bollocks. I can take him as a good bloke with a lot to say about how we should live our lives (I do have a number of disagreements with him, but hey). So do explain to me some time (no rush) why you and your ilk need the whole bloody shebang wrapped up in magic and miracles. If he's good enough as an ordinary bloke, he's good enough. But not for you. You can't accept your guy unless he's wrapped in magic. Weird if you ask me. Which you won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:47 PM

I earnestly hope the missus never finds this thread. I mean, "sexual distance." Christ on a bloody bike, single beds here we come... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:02 AM

looks like you make some beautiful things in wood,bill.
I have seen some of that before but some was new to me.
I have heard that joke before, in sermons.
different interpretations of the bible there certainly are.but when it comes to evolutionism, Christians usually know what the bible says but many give more credence to Darwin.the scripture becomes subservient to shifting evolutionary ideas.
I would certainly not pursue an argument about marys perpetual virginity, though I agree that some would.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:03 AM

""further defines these as "all those in whose nostrils was the breath of life...""

So how come we still have all those bloody house flies and wasps, that don't have nostrils to breathe through?

Don T.