Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: semi-submersible
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 07:43 PM

Wonderful scholarship, and fascinating stuff!

Re David el Gnomo's aside:
"I was realy interested to hear that the song in question was based on a Ukraine folk song though - It now goes in with 'Those were the days' and 'The Carnival is over' for me. How many more are there?"

George Gershwin's Summertime is another, according to Denise and Randy Bachman's research for their CBC program Vinyl Tap. The melody is borrowed from a traditional Ukrainian lullaby.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM

In verse 5, all three should be Gräber (or graeber, if umlaut not used).

In "Sagt wo.....," the Title word should be Veilchen (violets). Sorry that I was so sloppy.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: semi-submersible
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:25 PM

Q, I enjoyed your translation of "Sagt wo sind die Veilchen hin?" Where could I find an ABC or score of the tune? Mind if I rearrange some of your phrases for rhyme and rhythm, such as, in verses 2 and 3: "Which we plucked, a-singing;" and "Was brook in valley sinking."?

Could "die Blumen Konigin" in the third line refer to the violets themselves? Little violets don't seem exactly regal, and I'd expect them to be called by a diminutive like Blumchen.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Gulliver
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:57 AM

Score and ABC here

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Gulliver
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 12:40 PM

Jacobi's song is prefaced with "Nach einem alten Liede" (after an old song). According to an article in the same journal that printed Jacobi's song (1782), Carl Wilhelm Pörner wrote (1783) that this "old song" is the Gartenlied (Garden Song) by Carl August Svabe (born c. 1711), written about 1750. He was secretary to a functionary at the court of Dresden. In this song, which became popular while Svabe was absent due to the Seven-Year's War, the author (poet) asks at the beginning of each verse:
Where are the violets
Where are the tulips
Where is the rose
Where are the girls
Where are the friends
Where is the poet

...and they're all gone, of course.

Svabe possibly based his song on an older song, either German or Italian (but I've afraid I don't have time to go into this now!).

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 12:50 PM

semi-submersible, change it as you wish; it ain't mine, but was found on the internet (ingeb?). I may have changed a word or two to something less stilted.

Gulliver, thanks for posting the earlier history of the song. The melody is simple and memorable, the idea behind the song instantly catches one, thus it has been passed down and revised through time.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Gulliver
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 01:32 PM

I forgot to mention my source for the information on Svabe, which is here (in German). The PDF contains a setting for Jacobi's song dating from 1783.

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:53 PM

The reference cited by Gulliver has three more verses to "Sagt, wo sind die Veilchen hin. They add to the similarity.

4
Bringe denn zur Laube mich,
Wo die Rosen standen,
Wo in treuer Liebe sich
Hirt' und Mädchen fanden.
Wind und Hagel stürmten sehr:
Jene Laube grünt nicht mehr.
5
Sagt, wo ist das Mädchen hin,
Das, weil ichs erblickte,
Sich mit demutvollem Sinn
Zu den Veilchen bückte?
Jüngling! alle Schönheit flieht:
Auch das Mädchen ist verblüht.
6
Sagt, wo ist der Sä:nger hin,
Der auf bunten Wiesen
Veilchen, Ros' und Schäferin,
Laub' und Bach gepriesen?
Mädchen! unser Leben flieht:
Auch der Sänger ist verblüht.

Hamburger Musen Almanach für 1783 .
Perhaps Gulliver has a decent translation.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: GUEST,Joe Moyes
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:28 PM

I've always enjoyed playing a version of this song, with some added words at the end for comic effect. When i first heard this song, it was by the kingston trio on one of their compilation albums. Pete seeger has always deserved to to credited with the writing of this song. Also Joe Hickerson, i believe should be credited for writing some extra verses. Which everyone knows it as.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: GUEST,Mark Allan Levy
Date: 26 Nov 24 - 04:07 PM

Just yesterday I was having an email discussion with a friend about the origin of Where Have All the Flowers Gone melody, when lo and behold a song came on the radio from the other room, and I listened through the wall then went into the room and listened further. Was this some miraculous sign from some folk god in heaven? My wife, who had been listening to the radio (WFUV-FM Bronx NYC) in that other room quickly looked up the title on their playlist, which I loaded into my desktop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqrZSNN0_98 This particular iteration of The Banks of Sweet Dundee is a jig-like rendering that bears a striking resemblance to Pete's melody, especially if slowed down, as he said he did. It is not a perfect match, but does sound enough like Pete's melody that I thought to write out my story. It is often found to be the case that several songs can be derived "genealogically" from an older melody that has been around for centuries, this one being a Scots/Irish song that made it to the Catskills and was being knocked around in folk music circles that Pete frequented in the 1950's. May require a bit more research to establish provenance, but give a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqrZSNN0_98   
The Banks of Sweet Dundee
Mark Levy

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Nov 24 - 06:02 PM

Good catch!

The Banks of Sweet Dundee

This is the information under the video:

Provided to YouTube by Emubands Ltd
The Banks of Sweet Dundee · The Outside Track
Rise Up
? 2018 Lorimer
Released on: 2018-12-01
Composer: Ailie Robertson

Subject: RE: Origins: 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone?'
From: Pappy Fiddle
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 09:30 PM

My fingers are twitching, isn't anyone going to post the full-circle lyrics?

OK, for the sake of archival completeness, here we go. I got these off some website, altho I remember the words; just didn't want to type all that. For the sake of historical completeness, I include after the 3rd verse some foo-foo the website injected.

Where Have All the Flowers Gone
trad / various improvements as discussed above

Where have all the flowers gone? Long time passing Where have all the flowers gone? Long time ago Where have all the flowers gone? Young girls picked them, every one When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone? Long time passing Where have all the young girls gone? Long time ago Where have all the young girls gone? Gone to young men, every one When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young men gone? Long time passing Where have all the young men gone? Long time ago Where have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers, every one When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

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Where have all the soldiers gone? Long time passing Where have all the soldiers gone? A long, long time ago Where have all the soldiers gone? Gone to graveyards, every one When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone? Long time passing Where have all the graveyards gone? Long time ago Where have all the graveyards gone? Gone to flowers, every one When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

=========
For me, these revolving stanzas summarize most of history. You folks on Saturn reading this must think we humans see war as an enjoyable thing, the way we keep wallowing in it. And don't even ask why we tolerate so much advertizing.