BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rapunzel
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:00 AM

As long as we can all agree

why should we all agree with you - it's one opinion and we should all be entitled to our own.

For myself, I am a nurse who visits people in their own homes for chronic disease management(not a district nurse). I have also in the past done a degree in theology and worked for awhile at a benedictine monastery. I have my own opinions on the matter, formed by my past and present experience and the terms and conditions of my current employment, but I've followed this thread carefully and although tempted to pass comment I feel now to dare to do so would result in a backlash of personal attack which I could just not deal with.

My point on the poster's childhood--which I of course know nothing about---was that my assertion had as much validity as his that an offer of prayer is a "violation" of anything. Neither assertion has any validity whatsoever.

the difference is, one is an opinion and the other is a direct and nasty personal attack (about something you admittedly know nothing about).

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:09 AM

"we overlook all the 'normal' Christians quietly beavering away at their thing."

Yes, and the reason that we don't hear all the time about Christians doing thier thing. Is because they don't brag about it, or make a song and dance about it. Like Ruth Archers Vicar below, who made sure that she had some groceries in the house, and that she had sufficient arrangements to collect her daughter from school. No strings.

Charity is charity, it's a gift given freely, without expectation of any form of reward or personal recognition.
In *theory* 'christian' charitable behaviour (at least to me) implies that there are no strings attatched, no personal or even religious agendas being furthered and ideally no egos being inflated.

In the instance of this nurse, I noted how pleased she was at seeing what she believed to be evidence of the healing power of her prayer. Now the subtext I read in both the unsolicited offer of praying for people in the first place, and then telling everyone about when it 'worked', is that you are implying that you have the spiritual power to succesfully intercess on their behalf (assuming something of a "Priestly" function in relation to others I feel therefore). Now amongst *peers* within the same religion, that's not my business. But in the case of unsolicited offers of prayer from a professional to an otherwise non religious person, you are placing yourself in subtle but psychologically powerful position of authority.

Now these may be subtle things, but I feel they are important ones.

So here's my cynical take on how the conversion goes:

Nice nurse enters elderly lady's home to change her dressings.
She kindly offers to pray for her on her way out.
Elderly lady (who may well be lonely) is delighted at such a kind gesture.
Her bed sores (or whatever), are improved the next time the nurse visits!
They are both very impressed and chat about how great it is.
See how wonderful prayer can be!
Of course it's got nothing at all to do with me, say's 'humble' nurse, it's all in Gods hands! Ain't he just the greatest guy!?
The nice nurse leaves some literature on her wonderful form of Christianity for the elderly lady to read...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

Sleepy Rosie, I'm not nurse Petrie, so I don't know what her exact intentions were other than what she says. Of course, she may have a hidden agenda we know nothing about and that she has lied about - either through commission or omission.

As for having the spiritual power to intercede, perhaps. It's possible some Christians believe this, and perhaps nurse Petrie believes this to. But 1) this idea is not limited to Christianity - you'll find similar ideas among believers in many religions, and I have found it in Wicca as well, the idea that the high priest or indeed coven could alter the course of nature on behalf of themselves or others. 2) If I have understood your post correctly, you are saying that for a person to claim, or believe, they have some kind of intercessory powers with the Divine / spirit world, is a bad thing. I would argue that it is not, a priori, a bad thing. It would depend on what end that intercession was put to. If put to good, we might be glad of the intercession. For example, I doubt there is anyone here on Mudcat who would not be glad of a kindly word in our favour in the judge's ear from someone whose opinion the judge respects, before our trial if we were unfortunate enough to be in trouble with the law.


And so with nature - if someone could cure me of my physical ills through a formula of words and without any monetary cost to myself, I'd be foolish to turn it down.

But there's another issue as well. Your 'cynical take on how the conversation goes' basically implies or states that there is a kind of charlatanism at work in nurse Petrie. In your account the nurse gives normal medical attention, says a prayer, nature takes it course, the sores get better - 'lo and behold!' says nurse Petrie - 'prayer works!!'

I don't see that that was what nurse Petrie was trying to do. And supposing she was, what would be the motive? If she is a charlatan, and knows she is, and that the prayer does nothing but is humbug, what would be the point in 'converting' someone to a set of beliefs you yourself know to be bogus? If there was some monetary gain, it might be possible to explain, but there is no hint in the Petrie case that she was after money. Fame? Perhaps, but how long would her methods stand up under scrutiny before she was unmasked? The only other conclusion is that she is either sincere or mad.

Moreover, I think we would be underestimating the intelligence of the average person if we were to say that one could not discern between the normal slow process of healing and sudden inexplicable 'miraculous' cures.

BTW, my late aunt was one of those quiet Christians beavering away, she was a joy to all who knew her and one of the nicest people you could meet (though she had her small faults like all of us, she was not a saint either!). Though she was not rich in money she was a living example of charitable word and deed, and no one ever left her house hungry, thirsty or cold. Sometimes I wish I could be even just a bit more like her.

On the other hand she never hid the fact of her christianity anymore than she hid the fact that she was on her way to mass or about to say her rosary. She didn't boast about it or anything, she just regarded it as a normal everyday part of her life, as normal as waking and eating or going out to get a few logs for the fire. She would have been very surprised if anyone had told her she shouldn't mention that she was on her way into town to go to mass or whatever. She would have asked "why not?" and would have considered it as odd as hiding the fact you were on your way to pick your car up at the garage.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:07 PM

I would say that claiming that an offer to pray is a "violation" of anything is a rather nasty assault, with no basis whatsoever, on huge numbers of people. But don't worry, I don't expect agreement--especially from Mudcatters, many of whom have indeed shown clear signs of a rabid anti-religion attitude.

And as I've said, I'm not religious in the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 02:45 AM

Ron - Mr Beard's comment was not an assault - it was an opinion. Your comment about Beard's childhood is pretty close to being an ad hominem attack. If you can't tell the difference, that's a bit of a worry.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:03 AM

A number of key points in your last post Nickhere, that I differ with.
I'll reply properly later, when I've got more time to respond in better detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM

... Mudcatters, many of whom have indeed shown clear signs of a rabid anti-religion attitude.

One more time, Ron:

No. What they are is rabidly anti-people sticking their goddamn noses in where they aren't wanted and don't belong and/or attempting to foist their beliefs off on vulnerable people..

The religion issue is something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM

Wow! This thread still going at it hammer and tongue?

I have been away for a few days. Thought this would have been dead and dusted.

Mind you, to be fair, we appear to have left the original thread and started another one, this time about religion. I suppose that is a thread with no loose end, and no hard end either.

Just to bring us back to the point.. A nurse was admitted into patients homes, exceeded her duties and has promised to stick to her duty of providing healthcare from now on.

On a Sunday, she sings hymns.

Life goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM

There are/were at least three other areas where proselytizing are regularly present, without much comment.

1. In hotels/motels you will find the Gideon Bible.

2. When you drop a contribution in your holiday Salvation Army bucket.

3. I don't know if they still do it but on Alaska Airlines I have found a Bible verse and prayer on my food tray.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

What about people standing on street corners haranguing you for eating meat or wearing leather.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:03 PM

It's not against the law to have an imaginary friend!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:27 AM

OK, fine. First of all, it wouldn't bother me in the least to have somebody who knows nothing about me speculate I had a lousy childhood--since I know that not to be the case.

And we'll also say that no Mudcatters are rabidly anti-Christian. Then you'll have no trouble in complying with my request of several posts ago to cite various good things Christians and Christianity have done. This is a pathetically easy task--for anybody with any objectivity.

Unless of course it's too painful to admit Christianity has done and continues to do good. And if by some chance it is too painful, then we'll know the answer to the question on "rabidly anti-Christian"--since some Mudcatters are a veritable cornucopia of information on the alleged wrongs Christianity has committed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

John Mc... Just because you personally haven't encountered someone... doesn't mean they are imaginary!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

Of course if more christians talked less and actually tried to live the life more the folk in here who have had bad experiences probably wouldnt have had them and would be more willing to live and let live.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:22 AM

We must agree to differ there Mike. I'm sure you would no more wish to impose your beliefs on me, than I would mine, on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

Not necessarily talking 'religion' there John... it was carefully worded not to..... someone....???

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:25 PM

Still having a hard time listing good things Christianity and Christians have done, it seems.

Mudcatters not anti-religion, especially anti-Christian?   Of course not, perish the thought. It's just that all the people so willing to criticize the nurse now have broken computers so they can't possibly get on to tell us about accomplishments of Christians.   Not that they were traumatized as children by being forced to go to Chapel for years, or anything similar. No indeed.

Well, I'll help you a bit. Can only tell you about the US situation, mostly, though I suspect somebody can tell you about the UK.


1)   The US civil rights movement--from abolitionism through the 60's and beyond is heavily grounded in Christianity.   In the UK you may be familiar with Wilberforce; in the US virtually the entire abolitionist movement right through Rev Martin Luther King--and since.

2) In the Katrina disaster, Christian groups were far more effective--and quicker--at offering and carrying out assistance than governmental groups, partly since they were already at the scene.

3) For folkies, I would think gospel music, both black and white, might have some appeal. Totally impossible without Christianity.

4) Christian churches offer help to people all over the world caught in various disasters. The days of, for instance, of forcing people to listen to sermons before getting something to eat, as at the time of the Famine, are long gone--this aid is given unconditionally.

That's just a start.

Whereas the most people killed in the history of the world were killed by atheists---Hitler, Stalin and Mao. If anybody cares to assert Hitler was a Christian, you will need some proof. Just his stating God had saved him from the 20 July plot, for instance, is no proof--just the raving of a progressively unstable dictator.

And do non-atheists therefore think all atheists are evil?   That's absurd.   But some Mudcat atheists seem to have no problem lumping all Christians together as destructive bigots.

It sometimes seems these atheists--some, not all, either can't or won't think.   Some, like Bill D, and Amos, do. Plenty more do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Nickhere,

Apologies for not responding as promised.
I did begin to compose a reply to your last post.
But after having seen some of the personally directed comments stuck up on this thread recently, I'm content to leave us 'agreeing to disagree!'

Cheers, Rosie :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM

Nurse praying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izOPM5keD6w

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

Um, Ok, Sleepie Roise. You can always PM me if you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:58 PM

Ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Marion
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM

If anyone wants to hear from a lot of nurses on this incident, there's a thread about it at allnurses.com : thread about suspensions for prayer offer. It's a very long thread, but is broken up into sections so it shouldn't take too long to load.

I'm an RN myself. My opinion is that it wasn't appropriate for the nurse to offer to pray, but that suspending her for it is a little excessive (unless there's a lot more history than we know).   There are nursing shortages everywhere, and we can't afford to be losing people from "the bedside" over problems that could be solved with some sort of remedial education.

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM

Ron,
I'm not getting what you are trying to do. Are you saying that people are anti-Christian because they don't think a nurse, who has been told not to, offers to pray for a patient? Are you saying that folks have to come up with positive things to say about Christians, which really doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, or they are anti-Christian?

Of course lots of Christians are good people who do good things. So?

Of course there are lots of bad Christians.

Of course there are a lot of good non-Christians, and bad ones too. So?

Are you one of those people who think Christians are being discriminated against if they are told they can't practice their religion at any time they want, in any situation, no matter who else is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:38 PM

It just would be nice if some of the atheists around here would see their way clear to actually admitting specific positive aspects of Christians and Christianity.

So far, it doesn't appear likely any time soon.

Some are sensible--like Bill D and Amos.   But there seem to be quite a few who have stood the Monty Python warning on its head. For them it's:   "You always expect the Spanish Inquisition". Even in an offer of prayer by a nurse.

Even the fact that the issue has been resolved in the nurse's favor does not stop their dark mutterings about "violation"--showing lively imagination but little else.

And as I've said more than once, I'm not in the least religious---but the imbalance around here is striking, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 03:24 AM

I atttend a Cof E parish church.
I know people from that small congregation who have worked in third world countries. Aid work not prosletising.
My partner is a member of a Methodist chapel. One family and one individual there have done the same.
How many atheiists do you come across who do this.
Check out the people running the big international NGO aid agencies.
Overwhelmingly Christian.
We may all be deluded fools, but you should celebrate our delusion because the world would be poorer without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:14 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:15 AM

Drat hit the wrong button. I wouldnt bother asking for an explanation if i were you aggie the ways of the cat are mysterious and certainly idiosyncratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

How many atheiists[sic] do you come across who do this.

Quite a few, actually. You don't need to have an imaginary friend to do good works.

And you'll find, worldwide, vastly more non-christians than christians doing good works.

None of this is anti-christian- but by the same token christians shouldn't get a free pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

God bless you

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:07 PM

I have a problem with equating 'good people' with Christian. I remember a retirement village where my brother in law was the superintendent of construction. He and my sister took me over to see the impressive campus. My sister said, feelingly, 'And only Christians are allowed to live here.'

I said, 'You mean, no Jews?'

She said, 'You know, I hadn't thought of that. My guess is that they mean, only people who profess a spiritual lifestyle.'

Greg F, you say that 'worldwide you'll find vastly more non-Christians than Christiasn doing good'. How do you come about that information? I should think that atheists don't group together to accomplish things the way that Christians do. For one thing, how does one contact an atheist?

'Secular', on the other hand, may well draw any and all camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

Before I became a Christian I have always asked Christians this question if you can't make somthing out of nothing then who made God!
I know that exists but I still have that annoying question an as yet now one has answered me they change the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Ebbie - I think that Greg may be referring to the fact that their are other religions than Christians out there doing good works. It isn't something that only Christians do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Aggie Nostic
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

Good People do good things.
Christians and other religions do not hold a monopoly
on good work and charity.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

Good people do good things.
Other people go to church.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

Rig - You are as narrow minded as the fundimentalists you despise. You know that don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

Nobody has a monopoly on virtue.   Nor on aggressive bigotry---though some of the atheists around here have brainwashed themselves into thinking that all Christians are narrow-minded dolts.

To find this creature, some of the atheists might want to look in the mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:40 AM

I know well by experience that people of no faith do good works, and that many who profess faith are found wanting,
but
in the real world the real people working with the poor and dispossessed in third world countries and western inner cities are overwhelmingly and disproportionately Christian.
Go see.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:49 AM

Matthew 6:3
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:39 AM

Well put Megan.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM

So after patting yourselves on the back for supposedly exposing Christian hypocrisy, perhaps you can tell us where the funds and other assistance which now come from Christian groups would come from in the ideal world some atheists envision---one without Christianity.

Or perhaps some atheists may have their own hypocrisy exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:05 AM

That shows how little you know about the people who post here you silly boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:53 AM

I would agree that some of our more aggressive atheists might possibly not take kindly to having their own hypocrisy exposed. Just a guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:05 AM

So you know for certain who is an athiest or anything else him here man yer awfy clever. ye should bottle it an mak yer fortune

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

Are you saying, Ron, that only Christians are charitable? There are many other religions in this world doing good for others and, I dare say, many non Christians who give their share of cash and time to help those less fortunate.

I just get a little tired of anybody, regardless of their religion or lack of it, telling what they do and how good they are being, doing it. If I make some sort of charitable move it is satisfaction enough to know that I have done it - it doesn't get broadcast around to show what a good person I am.

Read the parable of the Widow's Mite.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM

I think the point Ron's making is that there is a lot of good work done by Christians, jacqui, that would be missed if they weren't around to do it - not that the only people who do good works are Christians. That's how I read him.

There are many good people, of every religion and none. Just as there are bad people, of every religion and none. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on Good or Bad. IMHO, of course!

Cheers M'dears!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:53 AM

Jacqui, I agree with you that we just do not know of all the good that so many secret Samaritans do.
Where Christians would be missed is in the field of voluntary work.
Many , like me, do little or nothing but certainly the big organisations, even the secular ones, are mainly staffed and run by people who would call themselves christians.E.g. Oxfam, Save The Children, Red Cross, Tear Fund, Salvation Army, Christian Aid....

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM

The study focused on Lesotho and Zambia, which had HIV prevalence rates of 23.2% and 17% respectively in 2005. It found that Christian hospitals and health centres are providing about 40% of HIV care and treatment services in Lesotho and almost a third of the HIV/AIDS treatment facilities in Zambia are run by FBOs.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/notes/2007/np05/en/index.html
While popularly held beliefs--and characterizations by US government officials--proport that many churches/temples/synagogues/mosques/etc. and faith-based organizations give money internationally, studies and news reports found that the overwhelming majority of religious-based international aid is Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith-based_foreign_aid

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,strummer
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:01 PM

Was she suspended for praying or for imposing her beliefs on people who didn't want to hear them? It's not the same thing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:34 PM

Oh, fer Pete's sake....since I have been called 'sensible'...('bout time!)...let me say: Of course good, worthwhile things have been done by Christian and Christian organizations.

Now, what I really wonder is: would people have done those things without the pressure of religious imperative to spur them to action? Aren't some needs so obvious that things like 'food for the hungry' and 'care of the lepers' and other charities would be seen whether in thename of 'X' or not?

What religions provide is organization. I have personally seen (in Kansas), Mennonite groups be the first on the scene after tornados...helping in rescues, feeding folks and helping strangers rebuild. And, let me add...they did this with NO preaching... they just helped and went home. Sure...there are aspects of their faith that help focus their attitude TO such good deeds, but I 'tend' to feel that these are people who would have that basic attitude anyway, and would have been a part of some other group...as the father of a friend of mine was a member of the local Civil Defense organization, and was often working beside the Mennonites!

   I give credit to ANYONE who sets aside time to do good, and who contributes $$$ to good works. Unfortunately, it is not possible to do a double-blind test to see if the same amount of good would get done if there were no religious groups. I guess we should just be grateful for good deeds, and keep the rationale for religion itself as a separate issue.

Now...am I still sensible, Ron? ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM

(Is claiming #400 a good thing?)