BS: Israel's Sharpville

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

ting your Time Dave
Criticism of supporters of the Isreali regime = antisemitism every time
Lat him rot in hos own hatred
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM

I was not addressing anyone in particular, Jim. I just like to provide an alternate view to the one that makes is propounded so often on here ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM

So once an accusation of antisemitism is made, it is provisionally to be assumed as justified, and anyone who expresses doubt as to its validity is provisionally to be accused of antisemitism, and anyone who expresses doubt as to the validity of that accusation.... And so on ad Infinatum?

That would be particularly unfortunate in a context where it is seriously claimed that it is "antisemitic" to favour the same kind of boycott of Israel that helped change South Africa for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:58 AM

Spot on Kevin but you are on a hiding to nothing trying to convince some folk of that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 11:12 AM

"You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn?

You are making anti-Semitic statements and accusations here Dave."

How did the world end up in such a crazy state where idiots can make such stupid accusations,
whilst so deluded they actually believe they hold the moral high ground...????

totally bonkers...!!!!

"you can not dare call our obvious conspiracy going on right under your noses 'a conspiracy',
because if you do we will get all our gullible easily lead friends to gang up on you and call you nasty names,
and make sure you get fired from your job, and made a pariah in the news and social media..
We will destroy you..."...????????

Of course it's not a 'jewish conspiracy'..who here would ever be so racist...???

But it can most justifiably be identified as an Israeli Regime conspiracy,
which should be discussed rationally, and opposed with righteous conviction, unafraid of malicious retribution...


Just thought I'd pop in to mention that...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 11:17 AM

"Criticism of supporters of the Israeli regime = antisemitism every time"

That is a ridiculous statement. Who in their right mind can condone certain actions of the Israeli Government.
They are in breach of International law with their continued occupation of the Golan Heights.
There continued attacks on Syria are acts of war.
Their threatening to destroy the latest generation Russian air defences if installed in Syria.
Their heavy handed actions in Gaza
Their continued defiance of UN resolutions.
Unfortunately they are an out of control outlaw state relying on the US to constantly back them up.
When the bullies finally get a bloody nose hopefully the rest of the world will keep out and then maybe a permanent peace in the Middle East can be negotiated.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 11:58 AM

The BDBJ represents the British Jewish community.

It is anti-Semitic to suggest it is wrong for any party to have friendly talks with them, as Dave just did.

It is anti-Semitic to link them to "staged protests against Corbyn" as Dave just did.

It is anti-Semitic to link them to terrorism, as Dave just did.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:10 PM

The JVL speak out against Israel. They must be antisemitic

The JVL say that the CAA are unfairly targeting Corbyn and are challenging their charitable status. They must be antisemitic.

The JVL say that the existing Jewish leadership are wrong. They must be antisemitic.

It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic.

Kevin, you have just seen the scenario you described in action. Funny though that criticism of the Muslim community for not doing anything about terrorism or for nurturing sex criminals is not Islamophobic though isn't it.

PFR - Yes, it has me gobsmacked as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:11 PM

Didn't we just have a thread about useful idiots...???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:17 PM

Dave,
The JVL speak out against Israel. They must be anti-Semitic
That is not anti-Semitic

The JVL say that the CAA are unfairly targeting Corbyn and are challenging their charitable status. They must be antisemitic.

Those things are not anti-Semitic.

The JVL say that the existing Jewish leadership are wrong. They must be antisemitic.

That is not anti-Semitic.

It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic.

Yes it is.

The BDBJ represents the British Jewish community.

It is anti-Semitic to suggest it is wrong for any party to have friendly talks with them, as you just did.

It is anti-Semitic to link them to "staged protests against Corbyn" as you just did.

It is anti-Semitic to link them to terrorism, as you just did.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM

No doubt K**** categorises jews as either 'right jews or wrong jews'...

Those he finds tolerable and expedient to his warped ideology,
and others he disregards completely as if they don't exist...


... maybe, if only these wrong jews could just be made to vanish and not be around to undermine his idea of a perfect world order...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:26 PM

The Board of Deputies of British Jews represent some of the Jewish community only - they are a conservative Jewish Group who back the Isreali regime in everything it does and describes any Muslim criticism of the Israeli State as "terrorist" (yet they welcome the advances of a party with terrorist links
"Who in their right mind can condone certain actions of the Israeli Government."
TRY THIS LADY IAINS
You are a newbie to all this, aren't you - welcome to Wonderland - have you brought Alice with you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM

No doubt K**** categorises jews as either 'right jews or wrong jews'..

If you mean me, no but some are bad and some good as in any demographic.

Do you deny any of those attitudes I listed are anti-Semitic?
Which ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:31 PM

Which is why he is best ignored or talked around, PFR. Many of us have had enough of trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who constantly talks through his arse. We have tried everything else and only ignoring him seems to work. Jim is happy to continue challenging the ridiculous statements but I am not. Just keep on talking past him and keeping mentions to a minimum.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM

Jim,
The Board of Deputies of British Jews represent some of the Jewish community only

Most actually.
Enough to make it anti-Semitic to say parties should not talk to them (they all do), or to link them with staged protests against Corbyn or to terrorism as Dave does.

"The Board of Deputies is the only democratically elected, cross-communal, representative body in the Jewish community.   It comprises nearly 300 deputies directly elected by synagogues and communal organisations, from youth movements, to social welfare charities and regional councils.
In addition, there are also a number of under-35 observers, appointed by synagogues and organisations to supplement their representation and to ensure that a new generation of communally minded activists can contribute to our work on behalf of the community.
Each synagogue and institution elects one or more Deputy, depending on the size of that particular body, with elections occurring every three years."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:49 PM

convenient jews / inconvenient jews...???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM

"It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic.

Yes it is."

I'm confused, Keith. Does that mean you agree with the statement, or disagree with it?
I think it means you accept that it is nonsensical to suggest that any criticism of anything Jewish is ipso facto antisemitic, but it's as well to make sure. My initial reading was the other way round.
............
I suspect that the Board of Deputies of British Jews has as much reason to be taken as representing the views of all British Jews as the Muslim Council of Britain has of representing the views of all British Muslims. Which is to say, a lot less reason than it seems to believe, or as it is sometimes treated as having.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM

DtG - I try my best.. but sometimes my absurdist sense of humour
and injustice, gets the better of me...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM

Anyway, I've just had a new guitar delivered - half price - all is well in the world...

Serotonin levels are raised..

well at least until Monday morning...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

On the same basis of what Keith writes about the elected basis of the Board of Deputies it would be fair to say that the British government validly represent my views.
It certainly doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:19 PM

"It certainly doesn't. "
They can only be described as "representing" anybody if they are an elected body - they are not
They are made up of representatives proposed by bodies like synagogues, pressure groups, etc., who suggest names (or reject them) according to their own preferences - basically a self-appointed group
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:37 PM

Kevin,
"It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic."

Yes it is nonsense.

I suspect that the Board of Deputies of British Jews has as much reason to be taken as representing the views of all British Jews as the Muslim Council of Britain has of representing the views of all British Muslims.

They are unelected. In 2016 a survey done by Policy Exchange found that about 2% of British Muslims felt that MCB represented them.

Jim,
They can only be described as "representing" anybody if they are an elected body - they are not

Yes they are.
The Board receives Deputies elected by individual synagogues, confederations of synagogues, and other organisations within the Jewish community such as charities and youth groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:47 PM

Even an elected body does not represent the people who voted except in the sense that it should recognise its duty to act as their agent.

A lawyer can represent me in court. But only to a very limited extent does that lawyer have a right to speak for me.

For the head of the Board of Deputies to claim the right to make political assertions about Jews in general and their political thinking is to step well beyond his proper bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

So they are elected by a select narrow focus elite of probably mostly self appointed individuals...?????

yeah - that seems very fair and democratic representation for the mass of ordinary diverse jews............

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:54 PM

The Board of Deputies is the only democratically elected, cross-communal, representative body in the Jewish community.
It comprises nearly 300 deputies directly elected by synagogues and communal organisations, from youth movements, to social welfare charities and regional councils.
In addition, there are also a number of under-35 observers, appointed by synagogues and organisations to supplement their representation and to ensure that a new generation of communally minded activists can contribute to our work on behalf of the community.
Each synagogue and institution elects one or more Deputy, depending on the size of that particular body, with elections occurring every three years.

It is where governments, parties and the media go to get the views of the community.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:58 PM

"Yes they are. "
No they are not
SYNAGOGUE ATTENDANCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:15 PM

"The Community" doesn't have a view. Members of that community have views, a great many views, which are liable to contradict each other.

That is very much true in the Jewish tradition, where disagreement has a honourable tradition - there's a text in the Mishrah "Any disagreement that is for God's sake, it will yield something that lasts. Any disagreement that is not for God's sake, it will not yield something that lasts. " And there are many Jews who do not see the Board of Deputies as speaking for them, and do not see it as in any way representing their views.

The same is true of the Muslim Council. The same would be true of any organisation that claimed to speak for all Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:21 PM

"! The same would be true of any organisation that claimed to speak for all Christians. "
Absolutely - nail on the head
I knew many Jews when I lived in Manchester - many were atheists, some were Communists (Holocaust survivors and their families in particular)
This is yet another case of the Establishment (and its lackeys, like K*****) attempting to make their idols fireproof from their abominable behaviour
THIS IS THE EFFECT screaming "antisemitism" has on The Jewish people every time somebody criticises Israel or one of its support groups - it feeds antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:24 PM

Hamas’s Gaza leader, Yahya Al-Sinwar says (in Arabic) that they will 'tear down the wall and tear out their (meaning Israeli’s) hearts.'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:55 PM

"Hamas’s Gaza leader, Yahya Al-Sinwar says (in Arabic) that they will 'tear down the wall and tear out their (meaning Israeli’s) hearts.' "
Pathetic threats only by a group without a trained army, without adequate weapons to take on the local boy scouts, and totally incapable of ever seriously making such a threat against a State with some of the best trained and best armed troops in the entire Middle East - AS WELL AS BEING NUCLEAR FACILITATED - no more than meaningless and desperate taunts

Meanwhile, back in reality - Israel has murdered it's opponents by the thousand, has driven millions from their homes, has destroyed entire towns, villages and settlements - homes, hospitals (sometimes with the patients in them) has used heavy artillery, planes, tanks, chemical and anti-personnel weapons in built-up areas - as well as facilitating the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees
At the present time, Israel is slaughtering unarmed protesters - four deaths reported on Friday (in the Israeli press - probably at least double that) and more to come before the week-end is over
As well as the history of slaughter, Israeli police and soldiers have arrested and imprisoned (often without trial) many thousands of Gazans - including children
According to the Israeli Human Rights Group, B'tselem, at the end of February, this year, there were AROUND 370 PALESTINIAN MINORS BEING HELD IN CUSTODY
If that were not enough - they have stolen vast areas of territory in order to make room for Jewish Settlers and over half the Israeli people have given their support to a programme of ethnic cleansing
Apart from the Palestinians, Israeli authorities have issued an order to African refugees (who they refer to as "cancer" that they should leave Israel or be imprisoned - they have the support of half the Israeli people for this too
The Isrealis have done this in the full knowledge that they will never have to face trial for their war crimes and atrocities because they will be bailed out by U.S. vetoes - as they have been for decades
Now - tell us again Bobad, what did Yahya Al-Sinwar threaten to do?
Are you serious!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:19 PM

"We want to live in East Jerusalem under Israeli rule....The Palestinian Authority did not succeed in West Bank and it won't succeed in East Jerusalem...We don't believe in the PA...We identify more with Israel...Nobody want's to give up their Israeli ID...People are scared to condemn the violence due to implicit threats by "other" authorities..."-Ramadan Dabash, head of Sur Baher, a Palestinian neighborhood in E.Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:14 AM

"Hamas’s Gaza leader, Yahya Al-Sinwar says (in Arabic) that they will 'tear down the wall and tear out their (meaning Israeli’s) hearts.'"

bob - but don't you agree angry folks can say the stupidest things in the heat of argument...???
Especially if furiously inarticulate with rage...

If someone shouted at you "I'll tear you a new one...!!!!!"
or "I'll rip your head off and shit down your neck...!!!!!!"

would you take that literally as a serious threat...????

come on.. let's get real....

If however, someone ranted at you "I'll shove a baseball bat up your arse...!!!!!!"

Now that might be more of a plausible concern, which you should consider not beyond the realms of reality,
and take appropriate back steps to avoid...

Similarly if a hot headed Israeli soldier or officer yelled about protesters in heat of the moment
"I'll f@ckin slaughter the lot of them....!!!!!"...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:58 AM

You people deny that a community can have a representative body. In practice it can and does. The BDBJ is more representative of its community than is the Muslim Council of Britain.

If I said that parties should not engage with MCB, as Dave did about the BDBJ, I would rightly be hounded off this forum.

If I said they were "birds of a feather" with terrorists, as Dave did about the BDBJ, I would rightly be hounded off this forum.

If I said they were trying to subvert British politics, as Dave did about the BDBJ, I would rightly be hounded off this forum.

Such double standards against Jews is blatantly anti-Semitic. It is disappointing to see you all defending it.
You are the reason your party is tearing itself apart.

You are unable to acknowledge or see it even in yourselves, but it is unacceptable to everyone else.

We saw it over Naz Shah, Wadsworth and the mural, and here it is again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:04 AM

Whatever you think of how effectively BDBJ represents its community, there is no justification for maligning it as Dave did with all of you cheering him on.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:37 AM

When it comes to deliberately jumping to the wrong conclusions
in order to discredit decent folks,
some of the most persistent false accusers use spring-heels and trampolines...!!!




I wish I could get up this early on a Sunday morning with nothing better to do..
I'm off to bed to try to get a few hours kip...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:51 AM

oh... and even as only a 1/4 jew I am very suspicious of the motives of the DUP for ingratiating with right wing jewish leaders...

After all a party founded in fundamentalist evangelical christianity wouldn't usually have the most positive attitudes and doctrines towards jews...???

As I hinted earlier, for British right wingers sometimes mutually benefitial alliances with some right wing jews
can be convenient for as long as expedient..

..convenient jews...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:21 AM

See what I mean, PFR? Putting words in people's mouths is just one of his tactics. Quoting out of context is another, as is misquoting and then denying it. It is little wonder he gets ignored and laughed at. Fortunately I know from experience that no one else interprets things in the same way so anything he says can be safely discounted. The people that matter know the truth. Still it gives us a good laugh on a Sunday morning I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:59 AM

PFR,
oh... and even as only a 1/4 jew I am very suspicious of the motives of the DUP for ingratiating with right wing jewish leaders..

Every other party including Labour cultivates relations with the BDBJ.
They are not " right wing jewish leaders..."

They are elected representatives.

Dave,
Putting words in people's mouths is just one of his tactics. Quoting out of context is another, as is misquoting and then denying it.

If I have done that against you it was unintentional, but please identify what I have got wrong.

Here are your actual statements with my comments,

Arkush and his colleagues recently met in Belfast with DUP leader Arlene Foster and the party’s Westminster leader Nigel Dodds, whom he described as having been “exceptionally warm and friendly.

Arkush is the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews.
He meets with all the parties including Labour.

The DUP is known to support terrorist activities. Birds of a feather.

So Jews and DUP are "birds of a feather" on terrorism?

And we wonder why there are staged protests against Corbyn?

You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:37 AM

""We want to live in East Jerusalem under Israeli rule."
Does thE opinion of one writer mean everything I have listed is justifiable Bobad ?
Answers on a plain postcard please!!
Youre 'avin a larf, aren't you ?

"You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn?"
Are you accusing the Jews of what the Israelis are doing Keith?
You are the only one to have done so
Do not make this a "Jewish" thing - the Israelis have already done their best to do this by using them as human shields against punishment for their crimes against humanity
The "Jews" were never consulted when this elite group made a deal with this terrorist linked group, just as the British people were never consulted when the British Government were never consulted when Theresa May bunged the same terrorist linked party with £1 billion of the taxpayers money (and were condemned for doing so)
STOP BLAMING THE JEWS - THAT IS ANTISEMITIC
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

Another wrong sort of Jew falls foul of the wonderful regime that welcomes criticism

Natalie Portman

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM

Quite so, Jim. There is only one of two people on here who equate criticism of Israeli interference in the politics of other countries as antisemitic. At least one of those is anti anything not British and Christian anyway so we can safely guess at his motives for the sudden interest in antisemitism. Ignoring him doesn't make him go away but it annoys the hell out of him ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:09 AM

Agree, but mustn't let anybody use these discussions as a platform for their proven antisemitism Dave
A swift kick up their arses does no harm as long as we don’t dwell on it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:28 AM

It's the logic twists and verbal gymnastics that get on my nerves, Jim. I can discuss anything with anyone, even if they are a racist bigot, as long as they are honest and do not try to twist the honest words of others to suit their agenda. I may sound daft but give me an honest bigot over a manipulative schemer any day. At least you can have a good shouting match with the former and come away without feeling your words will be chopped up, stirred and used against you later.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:50 AM

Fair enough Dave
I'll try 'one day at a time' and phone you when I'm having trouble
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 07:45 AM

Big Grin :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

I just woke up after nearly a 'full nights' sleep.. bit bleary eyed..

Have we reached the stage yet where where get shrill accusations of anti semeticism hurled at us
if we even dare criticise the DUP...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 09:01 AM

"Natalie Portman"
Sighhhhhh!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 10:45 AM

Darwin Award Candidate from Palestinian "March of Return" Riots

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 11:09 AM

I've got Natalie Portman's directorial debut A Tale of Love and Darkness [ 2015]
downloaded & queued up on sky+ hard drive for future viewing...

"based on the autobiographical novel of the same name by Israeli author Amos Oz.
It takes place in Jerusalem in the last years of Mandatory Palestine and the first years of independent Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 11:11 AM

???
Only four children dead - that's not good news for you Bobad
Jim Carroll