BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies

Subject: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:46 AM

Inconsistencies: ~~

I remember when everyone speaking in an English context would pronounce two major French cities "Ma-sales" and "Lions". Nowadays, one will get looked at [and down on!] if one fails to say approximations of "Mah-r-say" and "Lee-ong"; but only the facetious or pretentious, it seems to me, will say "Paree". In Italy, it's still "Naples", not "Napoli", Florence not Firenze; but more and more "Livorno" has replaced "Leghorn". And in Russia, "Moscow" not "Moskva"; but in Georgia, "Tblisi" has completely ousted "Tiflis".

Why is this?

Leaving geography for gastronomy: the piquant sauce ~~ is it called nowadays "mayo-nays" or "my-o-nez"? And I wonder why only a pretentious person would ask for a bottle of "shom-pan-ye" in an English restaurant, but only an ignoramus would call for a bottle of "bew-jo-lays".

I was taken to task recently by an American graduate in English Literature for referring to Longfellow's famous poem about the Iriquois chief by the name I was brought up to, and which, surely, everyone calls it: approx "Higher-woth-er" . I ought, he tried to tell me, call it/him "Hee-ah-wah-tha". Frankly, I thought he was a pretentious idiot; but perhaps I am wrong at that, and ought to mend my wicked ways. Does anyone out there really say "Hee-ah-wah-tha"? Honest, now...

Comments? Further thoughts/examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:06 AM

Is it just Hollywood that pronounces the trade of a person who practices massage as "Massoose"?
Surely the original word for a female practitioner is Masseuse (masserze) and a male would be a Masseur (Masserr)
I have also wondered why the people who attend an event have become "attendees", rather than "attenders".
The ..ees suffix is generally used to describe passive participants, so the attendees should be those who are being attended to, not those who attend.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:18 AM

In Virginia, I've always hear it pronounced Hi yah wah thah.

i was told by an English professor (also a Virginian) that Henry David Thoroeau is not pronounced Thur roe, but Thur ruh with the accent on the first syllable.

Tamara (rhymes with camera)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 09:56 AM

I was met with blank incomprehension once when trying to buy a certain French perfume because I pronounced it with the correct accent ... and a similar experience happened once at the Cafe Rouge chain when I ordered in French from the French menu.

There's an element of inverse snobbery that comes in - again, I was in trouble once with a friend because I automatically pronounced the name of a wine properly (I'm sorry - I lived in France for a couple of years and did a French degree, so it's not something I think of as artificial).

But as to place names - no, it's a mystery, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:09 PM

I once complained to my California-to-the-bone son in law that when then President Reagan (long time Californian) greeted the president of Mexico with the traditional phrase: mi casa es su casa - he pronounced it 'Cazza' (not like 'pizza') - which I thought was inexcusable for someone living so close to the border.

But my son in law said: You mean, a Chinese man's name should be pronounced correctly too?

I don't know. In this country most of us don't live close to foreign language language speakers and just tend to do the best we can, I guess.

But Micca's original question still stands: Why are some foreign words readily accepted and learned while others become bastardized?

(I was a great reader very young- and had not yet learned to consult dictionaries. I remember well the teasing and ridicule I earned from my family from pronouncing 'fatigoo' (fatigue), 'Picturesquew' (picturesque) and 'caffy' (cafe) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 01:20 PM

I am surprised to hear that anyone ever acceptably said "Mar-sales" or "Lions". You'll be telling us that (outside lower military ranks) Ypres was pronounced "Wipers".

I would expect to read Longfellow's poem with an approximation of the name as he would probably have rendered it: "Higher-woth-er".

Boadicea is often a source of disagreement.

Surely "mayonnaise" is "may:naize".

What about "lingerie"?

The late father of a friend of mine could (and would) reduce a chemist's shop to a standstill for about half an hour with a lecture on classical Greek pronunciation when buying a tube of the toothpaste "Kolynos".

But the ignorance and arrogance of the Shrub fails to astound me.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM

MtheGM

"'Paree'- the old songs often used 'Paree', 'gay Paree', and that is in the back of my mind when I think of the city. In normal conversation I would use Paris, but if a friend is off to Paris, I probably would say, "Hey, off to gay Paree?"

Always hear may-o-nays. Yes, the wines are pronounced inconsistantly[cham paign, beau jo lay).

Hi-a-wa-tha was the way I got it in school; don't think I have heard differently except from Irish-influenced Boston, the last 'a' becoming 'er'. Had a mid-England friend who also used ther 'er' ending. His 'Alabam-er' caused raised eyebrows (we were both working in Texas at the time).

As an owner of a National Geographic Atlas, and a listener to BBC News channel, I am tending to lose some of the old pronunciations- so I sometimes say Lisboa, Napoli, Firenze, Alger- but not Warzawa. The BBC uses the standard English pronunciations for European cities, but tend to use the 'correct' ones for Chinese cities- Beijing I know, but the others confuse me- I know Chungking, but its correct name just confuses me.

Ebbie, ever eaten ley-too-cee?

Tho-roe' the only way I have heard it, but I have never lived in Virginia. I do remember 'Biew-fort' from SC (Beaufort).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM

Q ~~ agree re "gay Paree" ~ but surely said facetiously & tongue-in-cheek?

Richard ~ assure you re Marsales & Lions ~ how I was brought up to them in the 1930s. & there is a well-known Victorian play [by Boucicault, I think] called The Lyons Mail, definitely pronounced "Lions". But indeed never Wipers: just one of those inconsistencies I rubricate in thread title! For that matter, always Nice to sound like 'niece', not 'nice'...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM

Longfellow was a Brahmin of Boston society, he would never have put an 'er' ending on his Hiawatha.
Longerie and longeray commonly heard.
'Wipers', Mar-sail-ees, etc. occasionally heard as put-downs to F---s on the part of the politically incorrect.

Which reminds me of the British situation comedy with the couple- lower class store owners who made a bit of money and travel in Europe in their Jaguar or on 'Frogair'. It was a classic, but doesn't seem to have been released on DVD in this PC day and age.
Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:55 PM

I have been given to understand that in New York and in Maine the 'Rio' in Rio Grande was/is? pronounced 'Ryo'. I don't understand that.

'ley too cee', Q? Is that as in 'lettuce'?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:46 PM

In fact, Ebbie, not out of place on this website especially to remind that, according to such authorities as Captain Whall, Mrs Colcord, Bert Lloyd, Hugill, &c, singing sailors generally pronounced Rio as Ryo ~~ "Oh say were you ever on Ri-i-o Grand? Way-hey Ri-o!", &c.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:08 PM

Then there's "Celtic" which is hard when it's music and soft when it's football.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

But Michael, the GM, that scarcely excuses it. The word is so directly drawn from the Spanish, why would not a person pronounce it in the Spanish fashion?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:55 PM

"RyO" sings better than "ReeO". That's the way our mouths work.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM

I grant you that certain songs call for certain iteration and I sing them that way with gusto. But when the pronunciation spills over into the spoken word, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:08 PM

So how would yopu pronounce Mexico, Ebbie?
.............................

There is no consistency or identifiable pattern in these respects. Except possibly that when it comes to place names, "correct" pronunciation tends to be used for relatively unimportant places, whereas the more important ones more often tend to be given a name which has been translated, either in spelling or pronunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:28 PM

Boadicea is often a source of disagreement.

Come outside and say that...

However, the only evidence we have for her name comes from Roman writers who certainly never spoke to her, and almost certainly never spoke to anyone who knew her.

Then there's "Celtic" which is hard when it's music and soft when it's football.

Are youse calling Celtic soft? Come outside and say that...


On the general topic, since language is for communicating, it's best to match what you say to what you think others will best understand. Lots of people in Britain are familiar with places like Breave la Guy 'Ard through going there, but Paris has to be gay before it's Paree. And footballers and rugby players come from Two Loos and Leigh On, so you hear the name on the telly.

Even within Britain... how do YOU pronounce Shrewsbury? Daventry? Irlam's o' th' Height?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM

Reims can be tricky; apparently,the correct approach is to say something like " Ran Sir ".Ratatouille can be a pitfall for the unwary --"Rat A Tyoo Ee " it may well be to most English people,but I gather it's more like "Rat A Twee Er" ; add some frogs' legs and I suppose we'd be dealing with " Gron Wee Er O Rat A Twee Er". Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM

I was watching the Glasgow Munster game in Gaelic on BBC Alba, and it was interseting to hear the commentator's selection of Gaelic and English names, eg Daibhidh Blair but Fraser MacKenzie.

And have you noticed the growing number of anglophones who pronounce Caitlin as if it were Kate-Lynn?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

Rio was always Ryo to my grandparents and others in the west who came from the east and knew no Spanish. It seems to have the general American pronunciation until about WW1.
The Ryo Grande, both the river and the railroad.

Right, Ebbie- Lettuce.

I agree with McGrath, there was (and still is to a degree) little consistency in pronunciation of place names. Since radio and television, pronunciations have become more standardized.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:52 PM

Sorry. I meant the Edinburgh Munster game.

In the Glasgow game I've noticed that the commentators are pronouncing Ruairidh Jackson's name as Rory (Irish) rather than Ruari (Gaelic).

Daibhidh Ruaridh MacCoinneach.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:55 PM

How do I pronounce 'Mexico'? It depends upon with whom Italking with a Spanish speaker I say meH. Not that difficult, for a person who loves words.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:31 PM

Mexico- the x' in Mexico has two pronunciations. Most accepted is "May'-he-co, but some pronounce the 'x' close to csay or cse.
How does one spell and pronounce this Mexican city- Jalapa or Xalapa? Signage on roads to that city vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:07 PM

Manuka honey.

New Zealand pronunciation (which I presume is direct from the Maaori, but I haven't checked): MAAnooka (the first syllable is double length).

British pronunciation: mahNOOka. Which I find rather irritating.

The BBC closed its pronunciation unit under Thatcher, so there hasn't been a public source of authoritative pronunciations of foreign names in Britain for 20 years.

I suspect that the part of the world that consistently gets its names pronounced least accurately by the First World media is Africa.

I tried the standard white New Zealand English pronunciation of "Paraparaumu" into Google Voice via an iPhone last week. It's wildly wrong in Maaori terms. Google knew where I meant regardless. It would probably figure out the usual British tourist pronunciations of the Turkish beach resorts "Altinkum" and "Kusadasi" too.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM

Indiana is full of what I'll call badly echoed place names.

Milan, Indiana = MY-luhn, for instance. This is as universally pronounced by the local residents.

Versailles, Indiana = ver-SALES Again, by local residents, ALWAYS.

Lafayette, Indiana is variously rendered Lah-fee-ETT, Lay-fee-ETT, Lah-fee-ETT, and I suppose some other variants.

Terre Haute, Indiana (high ground) is Tair-HOTE, Tair-uh-HOTE, Tair-HUT, Tair-uh-HUT, and some others. (and then there are the joking references to "Terrible Hut")

I think I could almost write a book full of these Indiana place names.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:44 PM

Des Plaines, Illinois, is usually Dez Plains. Wikipedia has it as Des Pleinz.
Illinois and Iowa would add another volume to Dave's book.
Cairo, Illinois is Kay-ro. Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:50 PM

MtheGM, I knew this thread had to have been started by you!LOL!

Ebbie, my dad always said "Rye-oh" even though he knew it was supposed to be "ree - oh" though I suspect that may have been later after he'd grown up. Not sure though as his paternal granddad knew many Native American languages some of which he taught my dad before he died, so surely he knew some Spanish, too. But, he died when dad was young, so he didn't remember any of the NA languages.

...anglophones who pronounce Caitlin as if it were Kate-Lynn?

That's the only way I've heard it pronounced in the States. I know it's not correct, but I don't think the people who are naming their daughters care which is a pity, imo.

I've mentioned before, Belle Fourchette, WY which the residents pronounce bel-FOOSH; you'd be "puttin' on airs" to pronounce it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:22 AM

Thank you, dear Kat ~~ & LOL right back to you, xxx!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:16 AM

Most English people will pronounce a word ending in -a as "-er" - hence "Hiawath-er" or "Alabam-er". If a more open sound is required we'd expect it to be written "-ah"

There's not even consistency in how we mispronounce foreign names. Most English people pronounce Moscow as "Mosc-oh", whereas most Americans I've heard pronounce it "Mos-cow", to rhyme with the dairy animal.

I think the usages MthGM complained about in his original post have long died out - I was born in the '50s and I've never heard them pronounced other than "Mars-ay" and "Lee-on" - but with no pretence at a correct French accent of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:34 AM

I think "Majorka" is finally dying out!
I still hear either "Can" or "Cans" for Cannes.
I must admit that I pronounce Adulacia with the Spanish "th", and, for some daft reason, get irritated when my fellow Brits insist on the soft "c" sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:48 AM

I think that many of the British have formed an instant dislike to foreign pronounciations because of French lessons at school.
Suddenly "Peter" was expected to respond to "Pierre", "Mary" to "Marie" etc. Instant rebellion ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:53 PM

Madjorka might be dying out but Eyebeetha isn't ...The pronunciation of Caitlin is an interesting issue as at least one Caitlin of my acquaintance (who does know better, knowing some Irish)introduces herself as Kate-lin. I have a great-niece whose name is actually written Kaitlin, which drives me nuts but there we are, that's her name.
Given names are often a source of amusement and amazement. My favourite moment was when I was calling a register and got to the name Siobhan, which I pronounced (I think) correctly. There was a silence and then the small girl in question said, patiently, "Nah, it's SEEEB-HAHN, Miss".
And another school register moment ... had a lad in a notoriously difficult class whose name was Wole. He was six foot something at the age of 14 and was not a nice boy. I approached his name with great caution, as in London slang to call someone a Wally was definitely not polite, so I tentatively made it rhyme with the small black underground mammal first. Wrong choice. He corrected me in some amusement, making it indeed sound like Wally. But I have a feeling if I'd done that first off I'd have been in major trouble...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:06 PM

I tentatively made it rhyme with the small black underground mammal first.

What's "a small black underground mammal" that rhymes with "Wally"?

I'm perplexed.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:06 PM

Tunesmith, if you want to mess up your Spanish, listen to the online "Catalunya Musica," broadcasting in Catalan. I listen to their classical broadcasts quite often, since they cover early music recordings pretty well.
http:/www.carmusica.cat/index_cm.htm

Spaniards are used to the soft c sound; so many tourists and now Latin Americans visit.
In Mexico the 'th' is associated with 'gay' jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:10 PM

I'm further perplexed with

Madjorka might be dying out but Eyebeetha isn't

"Madjorka" is ludicrous, I agree, and it should indeed die out.

What would the proper spelling and/or pronunciation of "Eyebeetha" be? In 79 years, I've never heard anything like that or any variant I can imagine, I think.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

I'm a bit baffled by "Cannes". How else would you say it except "can" or "cans"?

I don't think I've ever heard an English speaker pronounce "Istanbul" right unless they'd been there. (The stress is on the second syllable).

If "Madjorka" is to be deprecated, which pronunciation do you want to replace it with? The Spanish one, the Catalan one, or the Mallorcan dialect one (which I don't know but I presume is a bit different from mainstream Catalan)?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:33 PM

Speaking as a native Mainer (or Maine-iac) I can assure you that I have never heard anyone pronounce "Ryo" but rather we say "Ree-O".

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM

Caitlin usually Kate-lin in Canada, sometimes catlin.

What is an eyebeetha?

A daughter, Sioban, answered to a school roll call as Sy-o-ban. Most non-Irish in Canada or U.S. stumble over that name. Most often pronounced So-ban. A son is named Sean, often pronounced see'-an. (Named for some great-grandparents).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

Ibiza = eyebeetha

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:18 PM

OH, you mean Eivissa.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:30 PM

Suddenly "Peter" was expected to respond to "Pierre"

That's not that different from the way Peter tends to be pronounced in Estuary English, with the t being dropped.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Michael
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM

My daughter is a Siobhán and gets all sorts of mumbled gargle.

I had a Sian in a class (teenage girl); she was See-ann.

All so had a Chavaunne (parents had obviously heard it.)

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:01 PM

Outside Portland, Oregon, is a tavern with a sign announcing it to be 'The Elite'. Locals frequent the 'Elight' Tavern.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM

Q: typo alert. You mean this:

http://www.catmusica.cat

I fancied getting myself a .cat domain but I'd have to translate my site's text into Catalan to be eligible.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:05 PM

Pronunciation is one thing, but why-O-why is Marseilles plural in English and singular in French? You don't even pronounce that spurious S...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:47 PM

Listening to "L'ocell de foc" on Catmusica now.
Tomorrow I think they will broadcast "El llac dels cignes" by Piotr Ilitx Txaikovski.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:01 PM

N'awlins--- that city that the hurricane hit several years ago.

When I lived in Wichita, the rivers that met there were the little and big Ar-KAN-sas...and the name for the merged river remains that way until you follow it 100 miles or so southeast...then it become the Ar-kan-saw.

In St Louis, we drove on streets called "Gravois" (Gra-voice) and "Cabanne Place" (Cabiny)...you'd never know there was a French history to the place to listen to the natives.

Back when there was much trouble in Central America during Reagan's time, I got SO weary of several English reporters telling me about Nick-uh-RAG-you-uh.

and even now, I am befuddled by those who make no effort to pronounce 'Iraq' correctly, even though it is not hard to do. It is NOT "Eye-rack".

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:50 PM

I guess I've always assumed that Des Moines Iowa was pronounced in something like the proper French, (Dee Moyne). But it's not that far from there to Des Plaines Illinois. Is either pronunciation actually defensible?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: GUEST,marks(on the road)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:52 PM

And the largest city in Maryland is Ballamer, er, Ballmo, er, Crabtown.
Decendents of the English nobleman, Lord Baltimore, would not be amused!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:56 AM

>>Pronunciation is one thing, but why-O-why is Marseilles plural in English and singular in French? You don't even pronounce that spurious S...<<

Well, in a way this is where I started this thread. My point was that when I was young the city of Marseille had an English name, Marseilles, pronounced Marsales ~~ I was not 'complaining' of this, as someone suggests above, but simply drawing attention to the fact that it had an English name different from its native one: just as 'Moskva' has the English name Moscow, 'Yerushaliyim' has the English name Jerusalem, 'Firenze' has the English name Florence, &c &c.{&, for that matter, the French & Italians have their own names for London} ~~ while other places don't have these variants; & that, in the cases of Lyon, Marseille, &c, these distinctions had dropped out, tho Paris remains in its Anglicised form in normal usage.

None knows why ~~ but I just found the question of interest: & so, to judge from the flourishing of the thread, do others.

So keep 'em coming...

~Michael~