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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Snuffy Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:17 AM either musha ring dummer doo dummer da or musha ring durrem doo durrem da WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Mrrzy Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:32 AM I heard it as WISHA ring dumado dumada. GREAT parody! Great info, I'd always wondered about this. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Gary T Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:39 AM I'm familiar with: Mush a rig um dur um die Now, as to them badges: In "Treasure of the Sierra Madre," Bogie and his prospector pals are heading back to civilization with their gold dust. They run across a group of bandits who claim to be sheriffs (& deputies?). One of the prospectors says something like, "If you're sheriffs, let's see your badges." The response is (in essence), "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" at which point the bandits go for their guns. Our heroes, however, outshoot them. I'm not familiar with who has adopted this line and used it elsewhere, but I'm sure this is its origin. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM "As a point of military history, being caught with an unloaded musket is probably safer than being caught with a loaded one, since you don't have to waste any time firing an unloaded one. They were always (early ones anyway) more effective when used as a good, stout club..." But that only holds for close quarter fighting. If your opponent with a loaded musket and possibly bayonet are holding you at arm's length, then you are stuck. "Well Jenny's a trickster, and while she could have just taken the charges and saved some work, she could also have just taken the guns away. Not this Jenny, nope, she had to make her husband look like a fool while the water dripped out of his guns. Definately shows how malicious she was." Not dripping, just enough to render the powder useless. I don't think they were married either, especially not in the verisons where she is called sportin' Jenny, a term for a prostitue. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: EBarnacle Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:49 PM Musha ringum Turtle dove. A rapier would most likely have a 30" +/- blade, as it was likely to be needed as a weapon. See the specs for epees and foils in various fencing threads. [Also bear in mind Crocodile Dundee's comment when a thief tells him to give up his cash because he has a knife: "That's no knife, THIS is a knife."] Similarly, a 19" blade would be a laughing stock. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:15 AM In the incident this is loosely based on, a highwayman named Patrick Fleming was a highwayman so supported and beloved by everyone except the nobility and English landlords, that he couldn't be caught, much like Jesse James. But he let it go to his head, and started robbing and mistreating common folk. Specifically, he brought his entire gang into taverns, then didn't pay for their lodgings, food, and drink when they left. On the verse in point, it was actually an innkeeper, not Jenny, who Drew his charges and filled them up with water. Pub operators commonly kept a supply of opium around, and when a customer got too rowdy and dangerous, he would dose their drink with opium and put them to sleep. Then they could be peacefully removed from the premises. Having been stiffed numerous times by Fleming he put an end to it by drugging them all, then going to each one of them to pour water into the flash pans of their flintlock pistols. After he had all of the pan powder wetted, so the guns wouldn't fire, he called the sheriff to come get them. Fleming and his 14 men were taken to Dublin and hanged on April 24th, 1650. Fleming had become so hated among the aristocracy that he was hanged... twice. After hanging him, they took his body down, wrapped it in chains, then hanged him again beside the road, outside of town, leaving the body to rot and be eaten by crows. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: bubblyrat Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM No US manufacturer of real blackpowder in 2001 ?? So who made the gunpowder used in vast quantities in the main armament of the battleships Iowa ,Missouri , et al ? They used gunpowder rather than cordite , didn't they ? |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: GUEST,999 Date: 31 Jan 13 - 07:04 AM Black powder available here. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM Hurling is the Irish game closely akin to hockey, but with no restriction on getting the ball in the air. Tossing the ball in the air and whacking it with a full swing from the Hurley (a wider faced hockey stick) could send the hard ball up field at well over 100mph, where it would be neatly picked out of the air with a stick blade and sent on again to another player. Some of the harder types would catch it one handed. It's a fast and furious game in which taking your eye off the ball could be fatal, but injuries (well, serious ones) are surprisingly rare, as the players are uaually highly skilled and accurate. Hockey for hard men, my Irish father called it. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:19 PM In 2001, it was confirmed that there was no manufacturer of black powder in operation in the US. The last US manufacturer (which I believe was DuPont?) lost their factory in an accident and as of 2001 had chosen not to resume production. There was/is some demand for it, so in the decade since a few small suppliers have come into existence, but I don't have information at hand on whether they actually make the powder or just remix and package imported powder under new brand names. Black powder is simple enough to make that early farmers often made their own for purposes like stump blasting, and commercial black powder was still in use when the railroad blasted its way through to Hutchinson, Kansas in the mid/late 1800s (souvenir pictures at hand), but more modern explosives are much safer and it's seldom used much anymore. Black powder (original or as Pyrodex) is still used for "blanks" and possibly for the "flash-bang" type of assault/crowd control charges popularized by a couple of TV "spy epics." (I've never seen a documented use of "flash bangs" by police, but ... ) The uses in blank cartridges are due to the pressure regressive burning (a chemical characteristic) that prevents pressure buildup if the gun isn't too clean, impressive smoke, and sometimes for the bright burning powder ejected due to slow/incomplete burning in the gun. A disadvantage of black powder is that the residues left in the barrel are extremely corrosive, partly because they're mostly hygroscopic and absorb moisture, and "extensive cleaning rituals" are necessary after each use that are generally unneeded with more modern propellants. In fixed cartridges, corrosive primers continued in some use long after smokeless powder went away, but more modern cartridges generally use noncorrosive primers and minimize the need for very frequent cleaning almost entirely, with congealed lubricants being more of a problem than powder/primer residues. Chemically, most "smokeless" powders are slightly pressure progressive, but this characteristic can be controlled by details, mostly the geometry of the individual "grains" that make the burning "rate regressive" or "rate progressive. A "disk" shaped grain will burn on the surface so that the burning surface is relatively constant until it's all gone. This powder grain shape is used in many small arms loads. A solid rod that burns mostly on the cylindrical surface reduces the burning surface as it burns, so the rate at which gas is produced slows down as the grains are consumed. Sometimes used in shotgun sized cartridges to reduce "muzzle report." A cylindrical tube can be nearly "rate neutral" since the increase in burning area in the hole offsets the decrease in burning area on the outside. Multiple lengthwise holes in a cylinder can produce much more increase in the holes than the decrease on the outer cyclinder surface, and can make a "rate progressive" grain. Highly progressive powders are generally used only in very large bore guns, where the bore volume to be filled with gases increases at increasing rate as the projectile accelerates inside the gun, and a lot of gas is needed to maintian the pressure in the expanding tube volume. So far as is reported, even the largest naval guns have used "smokeless" powder since it's been available, although it remains "separate loaded," with the projectile rammed into the tube followed by separate bags (or cans) of "powder." I don't have documentation on when the transition was made, but it's been quite a while. Traditional black powder would possibly (likely?) still be used in large guns for ceremonial "salutes" since the extra smoke is impressive. ALL PROPELLANTS are "deflagrating" compounds when used as intended. That is, they burn and DO NOT EXPLODE. Explosives, that DETONATE, are an entirely different matter, and for the most part have nothing much to do with guns. (Or so it was taught to the US Army Ordnance gang half a century ago.) John |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: GUEST,highlandman at work Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:07 PM John- 10,000 points for knowing the distinction between deflagration and detonation! -Glenn |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:19 PM highlandman - it gets most important when you deal with something that can go either way, like the ethylene gas used for flame welding. At low pressures it burns, fairly mildly until you add oxygen. Compressed to a little over 150 psi IT DETONATES spontaneously (and powerfully). That's why it has to be "dissolved in acetone" to be stored at common tank pressures of a couple of thousand psi to get a useful amount in the bottle - hence the common name "acetylene" (acetone-ethylene). Lots of such fascinating, and mostly totally useless, things one picks up along the way. John |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Don Firth Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:12 PM The way I learned it in the early 1950s from a fellow who got it off a Frank Warner record: I went up to me chamber for to take a slumber.A single shot muzzle-loader flintlock pistol, loaded with powder and ball, along with wadding and with the aid of a small ramrod stored under the barrel (CLICKY). They often traveled in pairs, along with a powder horn and a bag of shot and wadding. The powder was highly susceptible to losing its potency if wet, so pouring water into the loaded barrel would very effectively sabotage the pistol. Molly wouldn't have had to "pull the charges." Dunking the pistols or pouring water in the pan or barrel would have been a quick and easy way to turn them into paper-weights. Origin of the admonition, "Keep your powder dry." They weren't talking about face powder and shiny noses here. Any soldier in the field or deer hunter seeking to fill his larder with the aid of his trusty flintlock would be out of commission if his gunpowder got wet. By the way, if you're ever at a target range and someone comes in with a black powder musket or pistol, try to stand up-wind. Those beasts spew a lot of smoke when they belch forth, and if you're down-wind— STINK like you wouldn't believe!! PEEYOU!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Mysha Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:12 PM Hi, Speed of propagation: Deflagration is subsonic, detonation is supersonic. I can't recall either word in versions of Whiskey in the Jar, though. Bye, Mysha |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:17 PM Although I don't have a lot of historical info to go on, at least later muzzle loaders always used a patch around the "bullet" when it was rammed down onto the powder charge. Where rapid loading might be needed, the fit might not have been particularly tight, but the patch was nearly always greased (or waxed) and would be expected to quite effectively seal the bullet in the barrel so that pouring water down the barrel would be unlikely, at least over a short time, to get sufficient water to the main powder charge to cause much harm to the powder. If left long enough to have a reliable effect moving the gun in almost any way would be likely to reveal the deed by water, not absorbed into the powder, running back out of the barrel. The primer, or "flash charge" in the pan (often called the "flash pan" in fact) where the flint (or other device) ignited it would be easily rendered inert by even a small amount of water. The flame produced by the flash charge reached the main powder charge through an open "flash hole" that would possibly admit some water to the main charge if a fairly large amount of water was applied there. The flash hole, however, was generally quite small and it might not have been large enough to avoid a "miniscus" block, making it difficult to destroy the main charge without more than casual pressure or by "squirting" water at the hole with some force/velocity. Getting enough water through the flash hole to completely destroy the main charge would be a bit like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube. Although a well-knapped flint can produce a significant visible bunch of sparks, the sparks are generally small, and carry little heat. It's a tossup whether it would be necessary to "deactivate" even the entire flash pan charge, or whether a small spit sufficient to quench the sparks on a "dampish" surface of the powder in the pan would suffice to prevent ignition of the charge and would render the gun useless without being obvious except under very close inspection. In rare but fairly recent usage, I've heard she "spit in his pan" used with the meaning of "she rejected (forcefully) his planned activity," in a group not having a particular knowledge of black power so far as I know - although I'll admit it was a rather strange group. (She, of course, being invariably a spouse?) I suspect this is a surviving form of what was originally intended in the lyric(?) - or maybe not(?). John |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Dave Hanson Date: 02 Feb 13 - 04:08 AM Jaysus, do you people go around analysing songs in the hope of finding mistakes ? Just sing it and enjoy. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM I wonder if Sergeant Pepper had his source in a memory of this song? |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Ged Fox Date: 02 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM I'm surprise that no-one has mentioned the similar dirty trick in the C17th? ballad of the Death of Parcy Reed "O some they stole his powder-horn, And some put water in his lang gun: 'O waken, waken, Parcy Reed! For we do doubt thou sleeps too sound" |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Steve Parkes Date: 02 Feb 13 - 01:56 PM Some years ago at (I think) Bedford (England) Folk Music Club, the question arose of why Jenny spiked his guns and/or shopped him. I went home and thought about it, and I present the result below. When I was with that Kevin, the one from Killarney, He was always showing off, he'd a smashing line in Blarney. Once he pinched a pair of pistols when he'd had a drop of beer, Then he said, "Here Jenny, I've just had a great idea!" Musha … (etc) Next morning he rose early, despite a bad hangover From a record-breaking pub-crawl with this best mate, the Wild Rover, You'd think this was a hotel – when he felt like it he'd drop in: And who had to do the washing and the cleaning and the shopping? When he came home later on, well his dinner was stone-cold, But he emptied out his pockets and produced a pile of gold. He said "Who's a clever boy then, me darlin' sportin' Jenny?" Thinks I, you'll piss it up the wall and I won't see a penny! That night I took his pistols and I filled them up with water, 'Cos I knew he'd be arrested, and I didn't want no slaughter; When they picked him up next morning, he was hardly compliment'ry! But I heard he got away when he knocked down a sentry. He went and joined his brother, the one that's in the army, Now they ride the range together – well, the pair of them are barmy! I suppose I'm well rid – after all, he was a mugger; But still, I must admit, that I miss the silly bugger. (C) Steve Parkes |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: GUEST,Avesso Date: 01 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM I saw the debate about whether and why would jenny put water in the main character's gun. I would like to add that most woman dont know how to handle guns (take off the charges? pff) so probably water was their way to disarm a gun |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Mar 13 - 12:34 PM No comment about the knowledge women might have about guns in the place/time of the songs, but "over here" many of the women were quite familiar with them. The women loaded while the men fired when there was lots of shootin' to be done, and most could grab a gun and shoot it if the wolves got after the livestock. (I might have a different idea than some from tales of my great granny who trapped furs and teamed a mule wagon to make the money to prove out her homestead claim. She was single doin' it all until she proved (fully owned) the claim and the ol' fart next door proposed.) John |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Don Firth Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:13 PM Verse from "Sweet Betsy from Pike:" The injuns come down in a wild, yellin' hordeAnnie Oakley, Calamity Jane, all kinds of women right handy with firearns. ======= I was out with a couple of friends one afternoon in an area close to a steep bluff that would serve as a good backstop so bullets wouldn't go flying off we knew not where. We had a good supply of empty beer and soft drink cans which we filled with water and lined up on a fence. A Coke can full of water makes a very satisfactory geyser when hit square on with a 9 mm. slug. Marcia, my friend's wife picked up her husband's .45 automatic, loaded the clip with five rounds, and turned toward the fence with a row of water-filled cans line up on it. A couple of other guys who were there (who didn't know Marcia) commented that, "Man, a woman really can't handle a .45 auto. Too much recoil, and a woman's wrist is just not strong enough to handle it!" Marcia overheard this. And said nothing. She just smiled sweetly, aimed the .45 cal. brute, and fired five shots as fast as she could pull the trigger. All five cans were in the air and spouting water at the same time. Again, Marcia smiled sweetly at them, and reloaded to do it again. The guys got the message and were suitably put in their place. No more macho comments out of them. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Mar 26 - 11:38 AM Bringing this to the top for someone searching for Captain Farrell, and am so honored to be the post following one by the late great Don Firth! |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 09 Mar 26 - 02:14 PM As I was goin' over the far famed Kerry Mountains, I met with Captain Farrell & his money he was countin' I first produced me pistol and then produced me rapier, Saying "Stand on your liver, for for you are the bold deceiver" Really? Come on, how could anyone stand on their liver unless they had just come from the butcher's? |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: GUEST,KJ Date: 10 Mar 26 - 06:09 AM Reminds me of "the Death of Parcy/Percy Reed", Child 193; "They've stown the bridle off his nag, They've put watter in his lang gun, They've fixed his sword within the sheath, That out again it wad not come." Just to be sure! |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Lighter Date: 10 Mar 26 - 07:37 AM It's "Stand on DE liver," dialect writing for "the." Not "your" liver. That would be ridiculous. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: GUEST,gillymor Date: 10 Mar 26 - 08:26 AM Continuing with Don Firth's theme, another "pistol packin' mama" from American folklore- The last time I seen Darlin' Cory, She was sittin' by the banks of the sea, She had a .44 strapped to her bosom, And a banjo across her knee. |
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Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' From: Reinhard Date: 10 Mar 26 - 10:40 AM "Stand on de liver" is equally ridiculous. Is it 1 April already? It's "stand and deliver", see the upthread posting from 07 Nov 01 - 03:22 AM. |
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