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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM ...President Barack Obama reiterated his defense of oil giant BP after a White House meeting with the company�s CEO Tony Hayward and board chairman Carl-Henric Svanberg. After the meeting, Obama and BP announced the establishment of an independently operated escrow account, the Independent Claims Facility, funded by up to $20 billion paid out over the next four years. BP said it would delay dividend payouts over the remainder of the year estimated at $10 billion. Other details of the escrow account remain vague. The US media presented the meeting and announcement as a humbling of BP. It was nothing of the sort. In fact, the meeting was a choreographed event with two purposes: to diffuse popular anger against both BP and the Obama administration, and to assure the financial markets that BP is in no danger of bankruptcy or criminal prosecution. There will be no serious consequences for the disaster that killed 11 workers on April 20 and has since pumped upwards of 60 million gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico. Even were it clear that the $20 billion will really be made available to the blowout�s many economic victims�and it is not�this is a preposterously small sum for a catastrophe whose real cost will run into the hundreds of billions, if not trillions. All the costs of environmental cleanup are to be paid out of this fund, according to the Financial Times. There can be no doubt that this alone will far surpass $20 billion. The deal ensures that the overwhelming burden of the costs of the disaster will be borne by the government, and ultimately the working class... ...hough the administration had done nothing to punish BP, Obama had been under pressure from financial circles to throw it a lifeline. The preceding weeks had seen BP shares tumble by half and on Tuesday Fitch downgraded the company�s credit rating by six notches. The escrow account is meant to shield BP from potentially hundreds of billions, or even trillions, in damages. While both Obama and BP promised that the account did not mean a $20 billion cap on liability had been put in place, the Independent Claims Facility is a preemptive blow against the tens of thousands of lawsuits BP is likely to face over the coming years. While it remains extremely vague, the escrow account will be BP�s first line of defense in determining what are �legitimate claims,� a phrase both Obama and company executives have repeatedly used. Those claimants deemed �illegitimate� might turn to the court system for redress, but having been ruled unfounded by a supposedly neutral observer, they will have a black mark hanging over them, and US courts are already notorious for defending corporate privilege. This is the fate that awaits the blowout�s financial victims. Millions of Gulf Coast residents are likely to suffer financially through layoffs which will ripple through the economy far beyond the fishing and tourism industries, through declining home values in a region already devastated by the real estate collapse, and through, in all probability, an epidemic of health problems. If there are 10 million such victims�less than the combined population of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, the three states hardest-hit so far�the miserly $20 billion escrow account would mean a mere $2,000 per person... http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/spil-j17.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM Arthritis, on another thread I said several times that the United States is the biggest cause of problems in the world. And I stand by that. However, that doesn't excuse anything that BP is doing or has done. BP's history is just as full of devious and despicable things as is that of the US, starting with its theft of Iranian oil, and it's instigation of the US covert overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran. You guys really are no better than us, you're just a little bit more past your prime so you're not quite as dangerous as we are. You still have all of the same imperialistic impulses, though... just not the resources to back them up. So spare me your puffed up self-righteousness. We need to spend more time criticizing BP, not less. We need to get the truth out about what they are doing, which they are doing their level best to cover up. The problem doesn't get corrected by turning our gulf into a military zone and covering up the evidence. It is corrected by ensuring that the truth gets out so we can make sure something like this never happens again. Personally I think the world would be a far better place without corporate criminals like BP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM So if we're going to start accusing people of bigotry here, let's take a good look, shall we? "You americans—" Now, that right there sounds like a bigot about to pop off. "— are just good at mouthing off when things don't go right for yo and very good at blaming everybody else." Every single American, Artie? And just who should be blamed, Artie? It was a BP executive, a bean-counter and desk-jockey who obviously knew diddly-squat about oil drilling, who complained that the drilling was taking too long and costing too much, and who insisted that the drilling crew speed up the process. The drilling crew warned him it would be dangerous to do so, but he insisted. What the drilling crew was afraid could happen is exactly what did happen! Then, the BP exec said, "I didn't know an oil well would do that!" Had he never seen an oil gusher before? What kind of oil man was he, anyway? As I said, a paper-pushing desk-jockey. Nobody is blaming the British people, Artie. So lighten up. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 PM Yep getting too involved. I will stop posting on this thread and apologise for flaming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:32 PM http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20100617/ARTICLE/6171090/2416?tc=ar BP decided on Wednesday to give $25 million to Gulf Coast researchers for oil spill studies, a fraction of the $500 million promised a month ago. The money -- a quarter of what scientists requested in Florida alone -- falls far short of what experts say they need now to study the effects of the oil that has been blasting into the Gulf of Mexico at a rate of more than 2 million gallons a day since April 20. BP, the company responsible for the spill, has no plans to release more money soon. Instead, over the next 10 years, the remaining $475 million will be funneled through a panel of six scientists appointed by BP, none of whom reside in the Gulf Coast region. Universities and research institutes from Texas to Florida have deployed sensing equipment, research ships and much of their staff -- oceanographers, chemists and marine biologists -- to the oil spill. Of the $25 million BP decided to give Wednesday, Florida scientists will receive $10 million. That amount barely allows scientists to continue emergency research that was patched together by diverting resources from other projects. The Florida Institute of Oceanography, a coalition of 20 research groups, with backing from Gov. Charlie Crist and congressional leaders, asked BP two weeks ago for $100 million. They need the money to pay for new sensing equipment to help track the spill, more lab gear to analyze water, sediments and animal and plant tissues and to hire more staff. They also wanted to take more research trips at sea, which could employ fishermen grounded by the spill. The research would help improve oil forecasts in the short term. And it would lay the foundation for studying the effects of the oil and dispersants on the food chain and the health of communities over the long term.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM I've been in a position where someone owes me a sizable piece of change and ya' kinda do have to waltz with them to a certain extent to get anything out of them... That's what Obama is doing here with BP... He's pounding them just enough so they don't quit on the deal, go banrupt and tell everyone to go screw themselves... It's a fine line... Pound too hard and get perhaps nothin'... Don't pound enough and get nothin'... If he get's the $20B before BP goes Chapter 11 then it will be a success... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM ""Holy fucking shit. Do you have two brain cells to rub together?"" Yes I do! And I have asked this question twice before without response. Since BP is working to control the spill, and to repair the damage, and since it has stated clearly (even before you and your Pres started jumping up and down) that it would take responsibility and pay for all the work needed to put things right, and since furthermore, it has set aside twenty billion dollars for the purpose, tell me what is the reason for driving its share values down, and possibly bankrupting the company, if not to eliminate competition for the benefit of the other oil companies, which just happen to be American owned? A second question is this. How do those of you who are gloating over BP shares tumbling to $29 think that the cost of repairing the damage will be met when BP shares are worthless, and the company goes under? I'm really curious about your response to the above, because it seems to me that anybody who had even one brain cell would want to ensure BP remained capable of paying, and that just doesn't sem to be the case. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM Tony Hayward belongs in jail for ruining America's coastline. He refuses to take responsibility for his actions. The hearings were a farce because he stonewalled all of the questions. We don't need big oil companies exploiting our needs and America does not need big oil addiction. We need electric cars, alternative energy if possible and a cessation of offshore deep water drilling immediately. BP has made a lot of money. They should pay it out to the people whose lives and livelihoods they have ruined. Americans should be held accountable for their gas guzzling S.U.V.s and the automobile industry is culpable here too in collusion with the gas and oil companies. Also, G.W. Bush is culpable for his collusion with the oil companies. He is responsible for the corruption of the MMS which didn't do its job. And this goes for all the sympathetic Libertarians who would like to dismantle the U.S. Government and limit regulation. Tony Hayward is Britain's shame (if Brits were really involved). BP as stated above is a trans-national company which is probably a country of its own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM ""We need to spend more time criticizing BP, not less. We need to get the truth out about what they are doing, which they are doing their level best to cover up. The problem doesn't get corrected by turning our gulf into a military zone and covering up the evidence. It is corrected by ensuring that the truth gets out so we can make sure something like this never happens again. Personally I think the world would be a far better place without corporate criminals like BP."" You may well get your wish much sooner than you think Carol. I usually find myself agreeing with you, but in this case I think you, and a lot of others, are seriously awry. Are you not aware that every day, the criticism and vilification of BP by the USA, is reducing the value of the company. The shareholders of any company will only hold on to the shares if they see some likelihood of a return on their investment. With share prices in free fall and no dividend, there is every likelihood that BP will see massive dumping of shares onto the market, which will inevitably attract the attentions of asset strippers. Your assessment of the costs may well be accurate, in which case I would suggest that you need to stop kicking BP and get behind their efforts. You need, like it or not, both their expertise and their money, so it would seem sensible not to kill them off too soon. What do you think? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Alice Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:04 PM BP's shares dropping is a result of the actions of BP! The shares didn't drop because people are upset about the disaster, they dropped because BP didn't prevent the disaster from happening! What do you think should have been done... the explosion kept secret? No reporting? No press coverage? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:20 PM I'm kinda with Don on this one... What has happened has happened... The blame will eventually land where it belongs... Right now???... I don't see any logic in buryin' BP and then having taxpayers pick up the tab... A little patience will get US alot more than pounding away... (But, Boberdz... Pounding away will get more votes...) Great... Will votes reimburse the poor shmuck who is makin' $3000 a month payments on a boat he can't take out into the Gulf to earn a living??? No, votes don't mean squat right now... What we need is BP's money and future stability so the checks come in... b~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:23 PM Since BP is working to control the spill, and to repair the damage, and since it has stated clearly (even before you and your Pres started jumping up and down) that it would take responsibility and pay for all the work needed to put things right, and since furthermore, it has set aside twenty billion dollars for the purpose, tell me what is the reason for driving its share values down, and possibly bankrupting the company, if not to eliminate competition for the benefit of the other oil companies, which just happen to be American owned? Obama's little bit of theater was designed to help BP get it's share prices back up again, and it worked. So what are you complaining about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:25 PM Having said that, nobody with any sense expects BP to even come close to making anything right. As I said before, all of their decisions have been for the purpose of mitigating liability, not harm, and all of them have increased the harm that has been inflicted rather than mitigating it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM $20 billion in escrow is a start; the cost, of course, will be considerably more. The courts will be busy with claims for years to come. After hitting a high of 650 pence near the end of March, it was about 360 pence today, a little improvement over a low of 337p yesterday; funds and individuals with BP stock have taken a damaging blow. ($32 approx. NY Ex, I haven't checked today) MMS shares the blame by not enforcing proper procedures; it's management was badly corrupted and/or incompetent. I agree with Bobert; take what is possible. Of course the rest of us will lose some liquidity over the coming years as a result. Drive BP into near bankruptcy, and Chevron, Sinopec or someone else will take over the company; then they will claim the damages are "not my problem" and suits would become impossible. I didn't hear all of the questions (not that it mattered, Tony only came up with a stock answer that the investigation was not complete) but I didn't hear anyone question his record- in his BP bio it is stated that he saved BP some $4 billion. Some emphasis could have been put on the charge that he is responsible for the cost-cutting and hence inadequate procedures in drilling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 PM ""Hey gnu - a few days ago, I got four stitches in my thumb. The price tag was more than $500. What do you think about that?"" So now you are saying "let's attack them some more, and drive the price back down again". And how much did it rise? I'd suspect nowhere near a significant amount, though I haven't seen the latest figures. Sometimes you just have to say "the milk is spilt. Let's concentrate on mopping it up, and worry about blame and punishment afterwards". Don T |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM So now you are saying "let's attack them some more, and drive the price back down again". And how much did it rise? I'd suspect nowhere near a significant amount, though I haven't seen the latest figures. Sometimes you just have to say "the milk is spilt. Let's concentrate on mopping it up, and worry about blame and punishment afterwards". Don, it sounds like you are more concerned about your portfolio than you are about the lives of millions of people. Shame on you. Do you think we should just bend over and take it up the ass just to protect your assets? Because that's precisely what is happening right now. Speaking out means we stand up for our rights and for the environment. Doing what you suggest may help your portfolio, but it doesn't help any of the people in this country who are being fucked over by BP, or the environment, either. And in case your attitude is, "well, hell, why should I care, that's so far away from me", my answer is, don't bet on it. The oil is going to be heading your way after it's finished with my state. Perhaps you'll be singing a different tune then, when you find out just how much help the people in your country get from BP after you are awash in oil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM On the subject of the cleanup |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:25 PM When the clock radio went off this morning with the news, there was a sound clip of someone, either an elected official or an oil company executive having a wall-eyed fit and ricocheting off the walls about Obama's declaring a six-month moratorium on off-shore drilling, at least until we get this business sorted out. The screamer was howling that the moratorium would destroy the oil industry and ruin the American economy. Some of the things he said about Obama reminded me of our paranoid-schizophrenic friend, ichMael. I didn't get who it was, because the newscast moved on to the next story. Then, in this morning's e-mail, I get this: When BP CEO Tony Hayward testified before Congress this morning, many expected to hear him apologize for the disaster his company has caused. Instead, GOP Congressman Joe Barton was the one saying he was sorry -- to BP.Excuse me!!!??? What the hell??? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM The Republicans are continuing their program of opposing anything Obama does. This tactic may backfire- the remarks by Barton et al go against majority opinion. They are definitely not the brightest fireflies in the bayou. In the other thread I have outlined BP's term payout of the $20 billion, the decision to sell $10 billion of non-core assets, assignment of Robert Dudley to replace Tony Hayward in oil spill operations, and speculation that their Russian assets are to be put on sale. -All items from BBC News. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM The Democrats need to scream this from the rooftops. This could save them in the mid-term elections. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: DougR Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM Both the Democrats and the Republicans made asses of themselves in that hearing. I don't know why congressional committees feel they have license to beat up on witnesses appearing before them. Well, yes, I guess I do. They want to show the folks back home how tough they are. None of them take into account that they work for us, not us for them! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Jun 10 - 06:03 PM ""Don, it sounds like you are more concerned about your portfolio than you are about the lives of millions of people. Shame on you."" God Carol, when you decide to be obtuse you really make a good job of it. First of all I have precisely zero shares in any company. My pension won't run to it. So I'm afraid that little ad hominem was a waste of your time. Secondly, I have never said that BP should get away with not paying every last penny of the damage. I have simply questioned whether it makes sense to keep up a barrage of vituperation which may result in you, and other US taxpayers having to pick up the tab if BP goes under. It isn't smart, and it isn't practical. That is not support for BP (I couldn't care less if they fold tomorrow), but you should care, because if they fold, you get zilch out of them. Now do you finally understand what I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to get across to you? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 18 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM I would say characterizing people who are trying to get out important information about what BP is still doing wrong as engaging in a "barrage of vituperation" is the ad hominem that is in operation here, Don. If we don't do it, it will get swept under the rug, which is precisely what BP is trying to ensure happens. As I've said at least twice now, all of BP's decisions since the blowout have been designed specifically to mitigate liability rather than to mitigate harm, and they are causing a lot more harm in the process. What part of "they are still causing harm" are you unable to understand? Do you really not give a shit that BP are ruining people's health for no reason other than to mitigate their liability? Do you really not give a shit that they are right now causing immense harm to the ecology of the Gulf of Mexico for no reason other than to mitigate their liability? Do you really think that shutting up is the right thing to do while they are causing so much death and destruction for no reason other than to protect their corporate bottom line? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:21 PM At this point, quibbling about whose fault it was, is not very productive. However, there is fault for not cleaning the thing up, and closing it....and the figured are much higher than reported, on here. Also, the pipe is a 20" diameter pipe, two inches thick. One half of the pipe is reported to have worn away. Crude oil has particulates and aggregates in it. When the Alaskan pipeline was shut down for repairs, it was worn down, to 1/2 its thickness. It took 30 years to do that...this one took only less than two months! Also, 14% toxicity, in the air, with these toxins is fatal...we are at 8%, at present...which is making people sick(head aches, nausea, dizziness etc etc. for the benefit of my Mudcat buddies, and (name callers), if you have friends or relatives near the area, you might give them a buzz, and tell them to calmly, and thoughtfully, get the hell away from there! I've got more...but not for stupid arguments. Just for the sake of a side note, I think the President has not been very Presidential about this, and looks way worse than Bush, during Katrina!...and has foolishly politicized this, instead of doing everything he could/can to get it stopped! The longer he sits on his hands, and "not wasting a crisis", the wider the hole gets! When they drill for oil, they often pump water into the void, as not to cause a collapse, from the umbrage. This is not being done, of course, which is going to be of another concern. Also, the gasses, are a lot more than methane, as being reported! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Teribus Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM Teribus is wrong- the drilling crew was entirely BP crew and supervised by BP employees. Transocean owned and cared for the rig, but the drilling program was entirely BP's. - Q Now let me see Q, the Deepwater Horizon suffered a blow-out didn't it, in which case the gas under tremendous pressure would have torn up the drill string and the explosion would have been centred on the drill-floor of the rig. A question for you. How many BP personnel were killed? I would have expected most of the 11 would have been BP employees if what you said was true (which it isn't). Another question for you Q: If the drilling crew were entirely BP, why was it that Transocean organised a memorial service for those killed? The Deepwater Horizon was not drilling at the time the blow-out happened. Halliburton were cementing casing and plugging the well for temporary abandonment. This accident did not happen because anyone told anybody else to "drill faster". This accident did not happen because of any decision to use a head of seawater instead of a head of drilling mud to hold the pressure during cementation of the casing. The accident happened because the BOP Failed, no-one at present knows how or why it failed. It will be quite some time before we do know. Simple question for anyone who has watched the leak. Is the oil leaking out of the BOP, or out of the seabed around it? From what I have seen it is leaking from the BOP, which means people that the well casing and the cement job to set that was good. While BP may have planned the drilling programme to be followed that was complete, and had been completed without incident. Transocean was responsible for actually carrying out the drilling operation, it was their rig and they supplied the manpower to operate it. Anybody doubts that just look up the Transocean web-site and take a look at their job opportunities pages (To work in the US GOM you have to be American basically and it tells you that). The last Semi-Submersible Drilling Rig that BP ever operated was the Sea Gem back in the early 1970's. IF there was any dispute about drilling it is Transocean who have the final say NOT BP (As stated previously you may sit in a taxi and order the driver to speed up or run a red light, if he gets stopped and issued with a ticket, or has an accident it is the driver of the taxi who is at fault not the passenger). Cameron supplied the BOP, this may have been leased (probably was considering the depth) to BP but it would be down to a combination of Cameron and Transocean to maintain and operate it. Halliburton were cementing the casing, and as such they would have control of the drill-floor during that operation, it would Halliburton specialists who were directing what Transocean drilling crews were doing. I would love to see this order from BP for workers not to wear protective clothing, but I doubt if any evidence of such an instruction will ever appear. I take it Guest from Sanity that the 1500psi normal capping pressure you mentioned was a "down-hole" over pressure? and the others actual guage pressures? I am with RB, Howard, Don T and others on this, BP right from the outset stated clearly that they regarded themselves as being responsible and that they fully intended to pay for all damage, losses and clean up costs. Barack Obama then waded in and started political grandstanding. You never know, he might even be able to lay off some of the Hurricane Katrina clean up and recovery costs costs onto BP as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM Both the Democrats and the Republicans made asses of themselves in that hearing...feel they have license to beat up on witnesses... Jesus H Christ- Douggie's really overtopped the usual degree of inanity & stupididy- hard to believe, byut true! Poor, poor pitiful BP - ??? Right. the remarks by Barton et al go against majority opinion. The remarks by Barton et. al. defy reason and common sense. Only shows the degree to which the Republicans will act like complete assholes to oppose anything the Obama administration does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:01 PM If the majority do remove him from his post as minority leader on the Energy etc. committee, then some of the wind will be taken out of the Democrats' sails. Otherwise it's a sure sign (so the advertising will say, hopefully) that the GOP in general agrees with him. "Don't vote the Republicans into a majority in the House, or this man will be the head of the Energy etc. committee. Can we really afford another Deepwater Horizon?" It won't change the votes of the party faithful, but it could move the swing voters away from the BP-ass-licking Repuglickin's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM So, it's going to become a big political fight- or it is already. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 19 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM The current crop of Rethuglickin's make everything a big political fight. It's all they know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don Firth Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:20 PM Teribus, the information you have posted is 180 degrees out from all the evidence and reports of those who were there at the time. Documentation? I can bury you in it if you wish. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM I wish to apologise for identifying the crew as BP employees; nine of those killed were Transocean employees including the driller and toolpush. Two were employees of M-I-SWACO, a company that says it manages risks of fluids-related issues and safeguards completion, among other jobs. They mention that they work at deepwarer solutions. Unsworn testimony to media specifically mention a number of BP faults in procedure and prior damage to the BOP, cementing procedures directed by BP and footing of the well; it will reappear as sworn testimony in government reports and various legal actions. Anadarko, a partner (25%) in the well, condemned BP on the well yesterday. The BP report will apologise for the incident, but will absolve them of any fault in procedures. What else would one expect them to do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:45 PM Times Newsline, 19 June, 2010: Anadarko CEO Jim Hackett said today that BP actions probably amounted to "gross negligence or wilful misconduct." Anadarko, 25% partner in the deepwater gusher, is trying to keep the blame squarely on BP shoulders. Tony Hayward "strongly disagreed" with the allegations and said that he expected the firm's partners to "live up to their obligations." Meanwhile, Hayward's yacht competed in the J. P. Morgan race around the Isle of Wight, coming in 4th in its class. He had the boat built by Farr, Annapolis, Maryland. "Industry experts" (unnamed) "pointed out that if all attempts to contain the leak fail, oil will keep on flowing into the Gulf of Mexico for the next two years or more,...." The reservoir is estimated to contain some 50 million bbl. of oil. http://www.timesnewsline.com, "Gulf Oil Spill Result of Negligence & Misconduct, says Drilling Partner." |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,TIA Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM GfS, I largely avoid the threads you post to; to avoid friction in my life and yours; but you just stepped into a place where I promise you, I know plenty. Sorry to copy from another thread, but here it is (quoting TIA): I've heard a lot of this "Obama should have done something right away" nonsense spewing from Faux and its followers. As a frequent contractor to the Federal government, I have some experience on which to base a quick thought experiment. Here it is: The federal government does not actually "do" much of anything. They hire contractors, and provide oversight. When the Corps of Engineers (for instance) is fixing a dam (for instance), they hire contractors to do the drilling and grouting, or whatever. This is largely because they do not have the necessary specialized equipment. So, Obama steps in and has the Fed fix the spill. They will hire contractors. Who would be the contractors? Who has the specialized equipment? Yup, you guessed it - BP! So, What Faux is really saying is: "let's *pay* BP to stop the leak instead of pushing them to do it on their own dime." But, The Fed gets its money from whom? Yup, you got it - YOU! So, Faux is really saying: "You citizens of the USA should be paying BP to stop the leak" Brilliant. Doesn't sound quite like that when Hannity and Limbaugh say it, does it? Some people really need to learn to **think**" And, I just cannot let this slide: GfS says: "When they drill for oil, they often pump water into the void, as not to cause a collapse, from the umbrage. This is not being done, of course, which is going to be of another concern." Dude or dudette - oil is less dense than water. Pump all the water you want into any oil well as deep as you want, and it won't stop the flow of oil. But, don't believe me. Just try to stop a helium ballon from rising by putting air on it okay? And, get back to me with those results. This event has produced more "experts" talking out their asses than any news event I have ever seen. The Dunning-Kroger effect is in full blossom (JFGI). Odd parallel between BP Spill and the Birther threads. It is not really about the constitution and not really abo |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,TIA Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:21 PM Crap, wrong key... Odd parallel between BP Spill and the Birther threads. It is not really about the Constitution, and not really about stopping the environmental devastation. It is really about finding fault **any fault** with a "librul" President who is non-white. Wow. Now I shall duck because all the reverse racism, and "you are projecting", and "I am a counselor so I understand your true problem" arguments come flying. But; the foo shits, so wear it. Tell your problems to lansing (lots of commas and no caps please). And, post all the indignant replies you want. I promise you, I won't see them for a month...I am meeting the Queen this week. No shit. Believe or not at your pleasure. Buh-bye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,TIA Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:23 PM And, just to feed your favorite subject... Perhaps I *am* the Queen! Mwoohahaha!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,TIA Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM Sorry, one more, but this dealio hits close to home for me... Q is **way** on top of this one: "Industry experts" (unnamed) "pointed out that if all attempts to contain the leak fail, oil will keep on flowing into the Gulf of Mexico for the next two years or more,...." The reservoir is estimated to contain some 50 million bbl. of oil." end quote, now back to TIA... The "Industry Expert" that I have spoken to is Matt Simmons. Never believe TIA's word. Go Google, "Matt Simmons". Read his credentials, his history of predictions related to the oil industry (as well as specific details related to this event), and weep for the Gulf of Mexico, Planet Earth, and your (and my) kids' future. If this guy's expertise holds, we are fooked. Got no dog in this fight. I make no money being right or wrong about this. Accuse me of whatever bias you wish, but please argue with Matt Simmons if you wish to argue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:56 PM So much talk and so few facts. OK, I twist off too, but I try to correct; mostly I just post news releases, trying to put information into the thread. Deepwater Gulf wells suspended by Obama are 33, most belonging to Chevron, Shell, Hess, Exxon and BP. Not having a subscription to the Oil and Gas journal, I can't list them. Bloomberg Business Week says BHP Billiton (Australia) has $10 billion to spend, and may buy out BP share of Gulf wells that they partner. These include Atlantis, Mad Dog and Gunflint. TIA, valid point. And give the Queen a buss for me! I hold no brief for Tony Hayward- I don't like cost cutters- but his critics want to hang him before a guilty verdict can be assessed. There are worse things than being a yachtsman. And it is equally silly to condemn Svanberg for his failure to understand that in the US some word usage has become politically incorrect that is taught in English language courses elsewhere in the world. Remember, in Amsterdam if a Dutch friend says he is going to take a douche, he means a shower. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM TIA: "And, I just cannot let this slide: GfS says: "When they drill for oil, they often pump water into the void, as not to cause a collapse, from the umbrage. This is not being done, of course, which is going to be of another concern." I thought you said you knew something....what I posted is true. They pump water back into the void. You probably just had to contradict that FACT, and couldn't hold back, ..like a fat person who just ate two gallons of navy bean soup! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ebbie Date: 20 Jun 10 - 03:09 AM And what will stop the oil from rising through the water, GfS? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM Teribus, the information you have posted is 180 degrees out from all the evidence... Business as usual, then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Teribus Date: 20 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM Please do Don. What operation was ongoing at the time of the blow-out? Was the well being temporarily capped to allow the Deepwater Horizon to move and allow another rig to come in and replace the drilling BOP with a Production Manifold? If the answer to that last question is yes, then there is no way on God's earth that the rig was still drilling. To allow the temporary capping of the well the drilling would have stopped and the bit removed and have been retrieved a long time previous (any personal experience of how long it takes to run in and out of a hole that deep? have you got any clue at all?) As the rig could not have been drilling then how fast a hole was drilled is highly irrelevant. When you first start drilling you do so via a thing called a Temporary Guide Base, through this guide base you place and set your casing depending on the design of the well it starts out a 30" then gradually reduces the spaces between casings and between the outer casing and the formation through which it passes is filled with cement. As there is no oil leaking from the seabed it is obvious that that cement job has held good. What caused the blow-out was the failure of the Cameron supplied BOP. At the moment Don NOBODY KNOWS why or how it failed, NOT EVEN YOU. So how much of that is 180 degrees out? Very pleased to hear that Q has revisited his ridiculous contention that BP supplied the drilling crew. Now go back to my 180 degrees post Don and get some factual information regarding who onboard Deepwater Horizon were responsible for what. When will the relief wells be completed Q? In a far faster time than for the blow-out in shallow water in the Gulf of Campeche? Who is directing the drilling those relief wells Q? BP right? Destroying the coastline of America - Bullshit in five years time you will not even know that this has happened. If however you do want to talk about lives ruined and major harm and damaged caused start looking to the collapse of the US Sub-Prime mortgage market and what the effects of that were world-wide. How and why did that come about? Because idiot US Politicians dictated to the two major mortgage brokers in the US that they must lend money to people (US citizens) who were bad risks. The incentive and inferred reassurance having been hinted at that the Fed would guarantee those loans - The Fed did not, now start unlimited compensation discussions for that fiasco caused by US politicians, want to have a stab at the size of fund that would have to be set up? Pleased to hear that Indian Government is going to revisit the Bhopal incident, and the amount and extent of compensation paid there. Maybe some of Barack Obama's rhetoric might be rammed down Union Carbide's throat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Teribus Date: 20 Jun 10 - 09:48 AM Not 180 degrees out when it came to identifying who was responsible for operating the drill floor though eh Greg F?? The only business as usual going on here Greg is that I am dealing with fact most others are dealing in gossip, rumour and speculation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 20 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM Some perspectives on Bhophal: Bhopal Gas tragedy: A chronology of events, Bhopal/New Delhi: http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article448771.ece Warren Anderson Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/bhopal-tragedy-who-is-warren-anderson-30302.php?cp http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/bhopal-tragedy-who-is-warren-anderson-30302.php Were future USA-India "business interests" a Major Factor in the matter of no Anderson extradition? http://www.thehindu.com/2010/06/12/stories/2010061265471600.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jun 10 - 11:50 AM Bullshit in five years time you will not even know that this has happened. You are absolutely correct that your statement IS bullshit, Teezer. The shit from the Exxon Valdez(1989) is still smeared all over the coast of Alaska, and will likely be there forever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 20 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM Delicate ecosystems in the marshes destroyed by this aren't going to return in five years, or fifty. It's not like the critters and plants can just hold their breath and then come back out after the oil is gone (as if the oil is going to be gone in 5 years). And what will stop the oil from rising through the water, GfS? Dispersant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack who's cookie has gone west Date: 20 Jun 10 - 12:56 PM "Bullshit in five years time you will not even know that this has happened." complete and utter rubbish Tezza, which I suspect you know. This is the arrogant attitude to nature and the environment that caused this tragedy in the first place. This report from the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council (this link opens a 17mb pdf file) provides a comprehensive overview of the cleanup and the impact on the ecosystem of Prince William Sound. Twenty years on many species are not recovered to pre-spill levels, with cetaceans, other mammals and fish being particularly affected. As the trustees state: "Because complete recovery from the oil spill may not occur for decades, and because healthy habitats are essential to the permanent recovery of the spill region, the Trustee Council has taken steps to extend its efforts to protect key habitats." The amount of oil leaking into the Gulf, along with the use of chemical dispersants which are themselves toxic to the environment means the impact of the spill will still be with the Gulf for decades. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Jun 10 - 10:28 PM Just a little review of BP-induced problems, background for the attack by their partner, Anadarko. New York Times, Ian Urbina, "Documents show Earlier Worries for Rig's Safety," first published on front page, April 30. Preliminary findings presented to Congress April 23. "The problems involved the well casing and the blowout preventer, which are considered key pieces in the chain of events....." In March, after several weeks of problems, BP was struggling with a loss of "well control." On June 22, 2009, e. g., "BP engineers expressed concerns that the metal well casing the company wanted to use might collapse under high pressure. "This would certainly be a worst case scenario," warned Mark E. Hafle, a senior drilling engineer at BP in an internal report. "However, I have seen it happen, so know it can occur." The company went ahead with the casing, but only after getting special permission from BP colleagues because the casing violated the company's wn safety policies and design standards." Mr. Hafle later backed off and told a MMS and Coast Guard panel that "Nobody believed there was going to be a safety issue." Later, he refused to answer questions. In April this year, BP engineers concluded that the casing was "unlikely to be a successful cement job," - a document referring to how the casing would be sealed to prevent gases from escaping up the well. A later document said it "is possible to fulfill MMS regulations." A memorandum with preliminary BP findings indicated that gas was bubbling into the well (April 20), a potential sign of impending blowout. A parade of witnesses at hearings told about bad decisions and cut corners in the days and hours before the explosion. In March, reports or problems including "gas Kicks" and a pipe falling into the well; BP officials informed federal regulators that they were struggling with a loss of "well control. BP reported on three occasions that the blowout preventer was leaking fluid, which the manufacturer of the device limits its ability to function properly. Greg McCormack, Director Petroleum Extension Service, Univ. Texas, said he was surprised regulators and company officials did not halt the drilling operation at that point. Permission was requested to delay the federally mandated test of the blowout preventer until problems were resolved; MMS at first declined but lated acquiesced. Tests on the blowout preventer were at 6000 lb/sq. in. rather that the 10,000 psi mandated and used before the delay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Teribus Date: 21 Jun 10 - 12:23 AM Thanks for the link to the Bhopal Gas Leak incident, it does indeed put things into perspective. Barack Obama in his grandstanding performances recently has compared the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico as as serious an attack on the US as 9/11, utterly ridiculous of course as the former was an accident and 9/11 was a deliberate action of intent. With regard to 9/11 around 3,000 people lost their lives. The culprits were known and their extradition to answer for their crimes was sought. Those sheltering Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda refused to hand him over, the US intervened in the ongoing civil war in Afghanistan and drove the Taleban from power forcing the Al-Qaeda leadership to flee Afghanistan. Since October 2001 43 countries have been engaged in the conflict in Afghanistan all because of 3000 lives lost in the 9/11 attacks. The Bhopal incident killed 15,000, the culprits were known and their extradition was sought. Those sheltering the culprits refused to hand them over. Anybody see any double standard in operation here? Q, as for this: On June 22, 2009, e. g., "BP engineers expressed concerns that the metal well casing the company wanted to use might collapse under high pressure. "This would certainly be a worst case scenario," warned Mark E. Hafle, a senior drilling engineer at BP in an internal report. "However, I have seen it happen, so know it can occur." I would like to know the full context of this cherry-picked "concern". Look at the date, June 22, 2009 one year ago. Has the "casing collapsed under pressure"? No it has not. Once installed and cemented in place the casing sections are like an extended telescope inserted into the seabed. The well casing only supports the top end of the hole that has been drilled, it does not extend the full length of the well. Knowing how casing is assembled and constructed, I find the language incongruous particularly the use of word collapse. At the time were they talking about shallow gas pockets? On what has been "presented" by Q we have no idea. Function and operation of the BOP would be the responsibility of Transocean subsea engineers and Cameron as equipment supplier. Again I would like to know exactly what was leaking - another piece of half information presented without context. It would appear that at all points MMS were kept in the loop the reduction in test pressure for the BOP could only have come about with MMS sanction and a case would have been presented to them for review, comment and verification before that decision was made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:01 AM Both Ebbie, and Mouser: "And what will stop the oil from rising through the water, GfS?" Sorry I seemed to have taken so long to respond, but I had to go to a reliable source, for info. Great question! A musical, sound engineering question or psych question would be easier. Now the problem with dispersant is this; When you think of 'dispersants', you think it just breaks it apart, and sort of 'dissolves' the oil, and it merely washes away, but not in an oil form. But that is not the case. The dispersant that has been used, that is most effective, also breaks it down, but hugely into a gaseous material, which of course, goes into the atmosphere, and is HIGHLY toxic. Coupled with the other gasses coming up from the well, this is not able to be done safely. It's not just the sludge, that washes up on the beaches, with the dispersant in it that is toxic, which has been reported...though that PART, is also accurate. As to your question, if the pressure, was as I posted before, 1500psi, this may have already been able to have been accomplished...MAYBE. But the pressures are far, FAR greater than being reported, as to not panic people. Frankly, those in the 'know' also know they are in DEEP shit! As I've posted before, the nuke option, would only be a matter of guesswork, as to the size nuke, because of the reasons previously posted..PLUS..it would take weeks, if not months to slant drill, as to the placement of it...being as it would have to be placed below 'ground'. I thought 'Q's' post was very informative, however, only as to lay where the fault lays, and why..to a point. Man, if I could figure out a way, I'd do everything in my power to get it to them...but as you've seen, BP, (as reported), has done 9 attempts, with no success.(And I don't know all the methods, that they've tried). Perhaps a series of powerful, but non nuke, could do it..but at this point, as far as I know, (or what I don't know), I don't think they'd want to run the risk of being unsuccessful, and weakening the ocean floor there, making it bigger. Man, let's brainstorm it. I've always thought that this forum had a lot more potential, than the degree of how we can insult each other! Ebbie, and Mouser, Thanks for your thought provoking question! I Have thought about it, but now, because I was asked, I'm going to 'brainstorm' it! Regards to All, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM Oh, and 400! GfS |
