BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:04 AM

You just can't handle the truth, Snail. And it's out there. If you don't believe me, ask around.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:10 PM

Snail,

I am reminded of the lines Olde Bill left: more things there are in heaven and earth than in all your philosophy, Horatio. (Paraphrased at no extra charge).

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:02 PM

"...the discussion in this thread is just a disagreement about the meaning of a whole lot of words."

well, not 'quite' that narrow, but close. There's even a technical word for aspects of that situation: equivocation. If we don't agree on definition & meaning, we can hardly debate 'reality'.

For a detailed (and convoluted) theory of how the mind does or doesn't create reality, delve into the writings of David Hume. He insists his logic is air-tight,(and many philosophers agree) but admits in a footnote that even he can't usually act as though it is also 'true'.....this footnote is a pretty important point.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:15 PM

Oh well, I tried.

M.Ted, I'm sure you are right that Gravity is just a word that describes an idea that we have created with language...

...but I'm still not going to walk off the top of any tall buildings in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:23 PM

To be fair, Snail, you are quite right that material space time is real. Gravity is real, and so is light, rain, cold wind and other facts about it.

I think the question M Ted raises, if I may put words in his mouth, is how they are real, and how they come so to be.

Agreement about them provides a lot of their solidity and persistence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:43 PM

Amos, what didn't I address? Not to ask for repetition, but for clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:49 PM

Well, my question was, how would you define a standard of replicability for studying consciousness?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:14 AM

Snail--We still talk about the sun rising and setting, many hundreds of years after we found out that it doesn't do that--it's an idea that reflects the way we experience it, and is more meaningful to us than what really happens--gravity, is an idea like that, though you'll have to get the details from somebody else on that--

As we speak, It is raining, here, though it may not be raining where you are--but the things that define "raining" to me, are really only a small part of the phenomenon, and probably not the most important part. In fact, as I have gotten older, my understanding of "rain" has changed a lot, though I still get wet the way I always have--

Language is a medium we've created to express ideas, and those ideas embody our experience of things, not their nature.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:49 AM

when most nights i am so sick of daily struggle no money toil and anguish
and endure the battle long and hard with wakedness
untill i am so finally tired enough to sleep..

i drift into mysterious dark other world dimension
to enjoy sunset morning daylight bursting thro8gh curtains enduced daft headed nonsense dreamsms..


in that funtastic dream world



i sometimes try so hard to reach out..


but i never see GOD..

i'm friendly enough..

but even though he omnipresent..

..he dont even ever turn up for dream pool side barbie

with bottle of cheap wine and box of party poppers..


why !!!???


..and funnily enough ..


when i wake 4 or 5 hours later to meet the new mid-day

groggy headed and furry mouthed..



I never see him then !!!!



TONIGHT .. i am waiting for a phone call


an elderly relative might survive another night in hospital .. or not..

waiting.............


i begining to think god do exist ..

he must be the mean spirited mudcat mod

who deletes anything i write here that might upset his most intolerant fan boy worship club suck arses..

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 05:53 AM

M.Ted

Language is a medium we've created to express ideas, and those ideas embody our experience of things, not their nature.

Fine, so why are you telling me that I cannot use the word "gravity" to mean the idea that embodies our experience of not floating off the ground?

--gravity, is an idea like that, though you'll have to get the details from somebody else on that--

That could be interpreted as "I don't really know what I'm talking about."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:06 AM

Hang on a minute. Now that I'm more awake...

ideas embody our experience of things

Ideas don't "embody" things; things embody ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:04 AM

Snail:

THings may well be the embodiment of ideas, but there aren't many physicists who will buy that. And it would be nice if we knew why we can't change them as quickly as we can change ideas.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:41 AM

OK, OK, OK but "ideas embody our experience of things"?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:51 AM

Well--concepts do. You can yell "PAIL!!" in a crowded mall, and scores of people hearing you will get slightly different pictures of pails -- longer, shorter, plastic or galvanized -- but the concept for all of them embodies their experience of things we call pails. The more removed from experience language gets, the harder it is to keep it clear and connect with others.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:54 AM

I think The Snail is caught in extreme literality. "Embody" and "Incarnate" mean, literally, enfleshed.

The Snail is, therefore, not PC (Poetically Correct).

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:14 PM

Snail. since you are pushing the point, here is an illustration of Einstein's view of gravity (lifted from http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/gravity_modern_views.htm)--

>Einstein postulated that the presence of matter distorts the space around it.

>This can be explained by picturing space as a grid of lines. Without matter, space would be a >perfect grid of parallel lines. An object would move in a straight line through space.

>The presence of another mass of matter would distort the lines, drawing some toward it. Thus >a moving object would no longer travel in a straight line. Instead, it would curve toward the >other object, appearing to be attracted to it. What this theory does is says that gravitation—>the attraction of an object toward another—was not caused by the apparent force of gravity >between masses. Instead, it was simply a property of space.

So "gravity", the idea that objects are drawn to the earth, isn't really true, and "gravity" doesn't really exist.   Still, you could have fooled me--and I will continue to behave as if does exist--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

The fact that it is simply a property of space does not mean it doesn't exist. Temperature exists, even though it is not caused by caloric fluid, or phlogiston, migrating through the ether. Existence in this sense does not depend on definitions or explanations.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 03:45 PM

You can call a sheep a dog but ya can't make it bark.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM

Hi Susan,

"I don't understand why people-- religious or non-religious-- are afraid to open the doors to thinking or asking about things.... I CAN understand why folks sometimes assume that certain tradtions may inhibit the opening of the doors, but I would think that all doors that can be opened would inform the subject."

I thoroughly agree. This is why I think it would be instructive to question the nature of religion and test it scientifically. I agree that an informed discussion is desirable.
Close-mindedness and vituperation don't shed light on anything.

It's very difficult to talk past one another without directly answering the questions
that are posed. I think thiat the answering of these questions entail a certain respect for the people asking them without name-calling or opinionated denegration of ideas often dismissed without considerable thought.

The rigors of analysis are often avoided by drawing lines in the sand. I maintain that there are many non-believers out there who prefer not to be drawn into the discussion of the existence of God because they see the futility of dealing with rabid opinions. I think that the future will entail an extensive examination of the role of religion and how it impacts on the way a society conducts itself. I can see this as being only useful. Maybe a model of how a society can ethically conduct itself can be revealed.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:52 PM

I home the day comes when people/humans can analyze thought itself. Something as basic as that and we really don't know how it comes about.

I don't know for sure that thoughts about G-d are any different than thoughts about the curvature of space or why the colour blue appeals to some folks and not others. I also don't know at what point an idea becomes a conviction or a conviction a belief. That process does occur, and we know it because there are people who die for their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,JESUS
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 06:45 PM

Ok, Ed. Here I am. Now that that's sorted, there's a whole lot of catching up for you to do. Ready? You can start with reading your Bible from cover to cover. That'll explain most of what I want you to do. And stop ignoring Me. When you get to know Me better, I'll tell you the rest. And get a move on!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:19 PM

I maintain that there are many non-believers out there who prefer not to be drawn into the discussion of the existence of God because they see the futility of dealing with rabid opinions.

I think because they assume they will be dealing futilely with rabid opinions.

I've maintained for a long time that the only reasonable way-- the only practical way-- to deal with these subjects is around a campfire, late at night, in a mutually-curious manner with a close or you-want-to-be-close friend. Only real affection bridges the gaps in understanding, and prevents the exchange from becoming something other than whatever the two parties agreed in advance to have.

Hm, reading that back it sounds like I'm describing sex-- GOOD sex that is.... an effective chat about these matters is as private, important, intense, and time-consuming as good sex can be. A LITTLE affection (at the least) makes it even better.

:~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:04 PM

M.Ted, I think we may be finally getting back towards the point I was originally trying to make. In your quote, Einstein is not talking about gravity as an observed phenomenon, he is talking about it as a consequence of his theory of relativity. These are two quite separate things. Theories are subject to proof (or disproof), observed phenomena are not.

That is why I objected to WYSYWIG's remark that "Can't see thought, so can't "prove" thought". No, you can't "prove" thought anymore than you can prove gravity or prove apple or prove bacon sandwich but you can prove theories about them. My Theory of Bacon Sandwich awaits publication.

So "gravity", the idea that objects are drawn to the earth, isn't really true, and "gravity" doesn't really exist.   Still, you could have fooled me--and I will continue to behave as if does exist--

Wise decision.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:50 PM

That's like saying you can't prove that Rf decreases as 1/d^2. Sure you can't see it. But so what? You can measure it. And if you care to share the fate of those workmen who tried to get warm by standing in front of a microwave antenna, you can even experience it. What's "seeing" got to do with anything other than a relatively narrow segment of the EMF spectrum?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:10 PM

why I objected to WYSYWIG's remark

Actually, Snail, what you did was object to a point not addressed to you, that I had made in response to someone else's point, and you skewed my remark so that you could make a point YOU wanted to make, whatever that was... which you have done in a rather patronizing, argumentitive manner a number of times in this thread. At least that's the way it has seemed to me; this is the same kind of posting that led me to begin to ignore Riginslinger's posts a long time ago.

You may indeed be scientifically correct about the pilpul points you raise, within whatever discussion guidelines you feel are the norm for whatever kind of discussion is your preference; but they miss the mark of what I mean to discuss and my preferred mode of discourse so widely that I am not interested in attempting to look for, much less find, a point of agreement with you. Without a shared point of view from which to begin, it seems to me that rational discourse with you is not a logical expectation.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 11:27 PM

Snail, I've said pretty much what I can to clarify this point--I wish you the best of luck with it. I can vouch for the fact that it is very useful in a variety of settings, from creating music, to cooking, to engaging in negotiations that involve large amounts of money.

I am going to leave the discussion thread for now, partly because I've said what I can to help it along, and partly because it's been taking an inordinate amount of time to reload the thread, as much as five minutes--and what with it being "Winter Holiday Season" and all, I've got other things to do--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 04:38 AM

Personally, I don't care what gods people believe in so long as they don't try to shove it down my throat as some universal truth. Evangelism is the ultimate arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:25 AM

WYSIWYG, you have tried to use statements about science to further your arguments. Those statements have frequently displayed a profound lack of understanding of how science works and I have, with the best of intentions, tried to explain where you are going wrong. If I have appeared patronising, I apologise. It was never my intention to be so unlike some of your responses which have been dripping with sarcasm.

Riginslinger is openly hostile to religion so I can understand why you find him impossible to engage with. I have said nothing against religion or your beliefs but have merely tried to put you right on matters of science about which I know a fair amount. I am sorry that you are, apparently, unable to tolerate disagreement.

Have a merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:27 AM

Pit M.Ted has gone. I'd like toknow what the "it" in this sentence is.

I can vouch for the fact that it is very useful in a variety of settings, from creating music, to cooking, to engaging in negotiations that involve large amounts of money.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:55 AM

theleveller....you state >>>>>Personally, I don't care what gods people believe in so long as they don't try to shove it down my throat as some universal truth. Evangelism is the ultimate arrogance<<<<
All 'born again' Christians become disciples of Jesus Christ and as such are 'commissioned' by Him to spread the word....how then can you consider that evangelism is the ultimate arrogance?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM

Wal, GS, some might say your very reasoning is arrogant. If one did not particl'y believe in Jesus Christ, then electing oneself His agent might seem a tad pretentious,.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:30 AM

Amos, the same way as for studying anything else: you write down how you did it in enough detail that others can repeat your experiment. Remember, replicability is in the methodology at first - and IF there is replication of the results, you have evidence.

So, there are people doing reaction-time work: put people in front of computer screens and time their response to a stimulus. Change the stimuli, watch reaction-time change; you then have evidence for how thinking works if the reaction-time changes are predicted from the stimulus changes.
There are people doing fMRI work: put people in MRI machines with contrast (radioactive) sugars in them, give them things to think about, watch what lights up. If the same place lights up for others given the same tasks, you have evidence for where thinking happens.

And so on.

It really isn't different from studying anything else that appears unquantifyable to the general public... it just takes focus.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 09:08 AM

"All 'born again' Christians become disciples of Jesus Christ and as such are 'commissioned' by Him to spread the word...."

GS...to add to what Amos said, your statement/comment contains a couple of embedded, implictly circular assumptions. One must **ASSUME**, that is, believe...certain things in order to BE 'born again'. Then, they must believe those things and more in order to take on that supposed 'commission' to spread the word. Yes, I know where the Bible says stuff about "become fishers of men"...but I do NOT assume the Bible to BE absolute authority, and even among Christians there are differences of opinion about exactly what the admonition requires of them.
It 'could' mean just setting a good example and answering questions and providing a welcoming church to those who ask...or it could mean going out and actively recruiting and 'witnessing', even when asked not to.

You know that we in the US have a Mormon running for president, and that there is MUCH consternation among many about that 'extra' Book in the Mormon bible. Those who DO believe in the Mormon version assert that you should also..(I have them knock on my door occasionally)..but I'd venture that YOU are quite happy with the King James version, or some close approximation. WHY??? Because you just 'believe' it is best. I also have Jehovah's Witnesses come 'round explaining that "space in Heaven is limited", which I suppose you also reject. WHY??? I am quite sure that YOU would have something to say to anyone who knocked on your door and suggested that THEIR commission to evangelize and 'spread the word' differently is better than yours!

You see, Georgiansilver, any time one group asserts that they have the 'right' way, they will be faced with others who either feel that THEY have the right way, or who feel that no one does.

   I'm sorry, but your 'commission' from Jesus to save my soul means little if I do not previously accept the entire rationale behind it.

The only way I can imagine for us to co-exist is for me to allow you to believe and worship as you please....as long as you do not infringe on my right to NOT accept your particular beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 09:08 AM

"All 'born again' Christians become disciples of Jesus Christ and as such are 'commissioned' by Him to spread the word....how then can you consider that evangelism is the ultimate arrogance?"

Well,you've just demonstrated what I mean. Implying that your beliefs are in some way superior to mine and that you have to convert me is complete and utter arrogance. Respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours - after all, that's what they are - 'beliefs', not hard fact. I've no idea what you mean by 'commissioned'. Are you claiming that god speaks to you? That's not commissioned, that's schizophrenia.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 09:51 AM

Mrrzy:

All well and good. The question arises on the focus and precision required.

Hypothetically, If I take 100 people at random and ask them to recall times when they really felt in communication, or really felt affection, for example, I expect well above 50% would say they felt more cheerful afterwards. From this (if my guess were correct) you could advance some tentative conclusions about the functions involved.

Of course, leaving the response entirely up to the responder to that degree means you are introducing a wild variable in the content of the memories, obviously.   You have some many differences between two people that the replication you describe can only be in the broadest terms.

If you limit yourself to mechanical measures like response time to a flash of light, you get baselines of how well the body and nerves respond to input. Or perhaps the degree to which someone is paying attention. But even though your standard of mechanical replication is higher in the latter case, it seems to me the degree of useful insight is lower. OR, at least, using that standard steers you directly into a presumed model of mechanism, because it accepts mechanical replication as signal and dismisses as noise a large chunk of bandwidth that might have information more telling in seeking a "realistic" or at least workable model.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:09 AM

I don't know for sure that thoughts about G-d are any different than thoughts about the curvature of space or why the colour blue appeals to some folks and not others


    Who are these people who don't like the color blue. We must root them out before they destroy the fabric of our society! Or the fabric of our jeans. Or something.... But we must root them out!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:12 AM

They are nudists, Neil D, nudists.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:58 AM

Blasphemers!! None shall be spared!! Let them feel the wrath of the Almighty Thredz, and repent.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:00 AM

If ya pent it right the first time then you don't HAVE to repent.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:03 AM

Just wanted to point out that GS (Georgian Silver) is not just a guy who talks the talk--he also walks the walk. HELLO, ya ol' fart. Howzit?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

Well, sure -- but penting, as a skill, is not being passed down the way it used to be. No-one wants to spent the pence to be an apprentice penter, and apprentice penting leaves you spent anyway.

And if its worth doing over, its worth doing right the second time...right? Right?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

Oh, I KNOW that GS..(Mike, I think?) is very honest, committed and giving. He does good works and tries to live his life according to the words he believes in.

(and those nudists who LIKE blue...we sing about them in "Woad".)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

We tried to reform them, honest. But the minute they saw us turn our backs, and the coast was clear, they gathered around the campfire in the deep woods singing "On the Woad Again"....




A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:26 PM

And the ones with blue tongues...they're the ones who were wringing their hands and moaning "Oh, woad is mead!"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:46 PM

They're nudists?!?!?!
    Well, thats all right then. Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:54 PM

Of course, any nudists around here would've turned blue by now.
I can forgive them not liking blue....as a skin color.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:21 PM

Peace...thank you for that great vote of confidence...unfortunately, as with all Christians..I make mistakes...I get it wrong and can't always put things right afterwards. Living the life is impossible, but trying to isn't.
Thanks and best wishes. Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,JESUS
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:30 PM

Well here I am and folks just keep on ignoring Me and talking about Me in third person as if I didn't exist!

All these folks demanding 'proof' of My existence! They never specify what kind of proof exactly would satisfy them. The fact that I'm here addressing you directly doesn't seem to make any difference. What then, o non-believers, is the proof you demand in order to believe I exist? Just list your criteria and we'll get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:44 PM

well, gee...you could appear next Summer at my local swimming pool and walk on the water. And I have whole list of 'healing' that needs to be done. You want ALL of my list?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:46 PM

and if you were really clever you could get post #600 before I do.