BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo

Subject: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:42 PM

I am a conservative Republican who voted for George Bush, but I can not vote again for the illiterate, ignorant, uncredentialed, untruthful, banty rooster. He should have never been elected and I am ashamed I voted for him. My reason at the time was I could not vote for Al Gore because I did not want a continuation of any administration related to the amoral Bill Clinton, among other lesser reasons. I will vote for a Democrat if it means Mr. Bush (I still can't call him President) is defeated. However, the Democrat must be better than Bush to get my vote (I know, my one vote probably does not matter much anyway, but I want and need to vote). I will force myself to watch the State Of The Union address tonight because that is my civic duty as a U.S. citizen, but the sight of Mr. Bush and his diction is just about all I can take.

Many of my views on life and society are formulated by my conservative upbringing, education, and my innate conscience of right and wrong.
I may not be able to support the Democratic Party because of some of my conservative views:

I am against liberal social welfare. People need to be productive citizens and I have no sympathy for bums, drug addicts, social misfits, and people who believe their way in life should be given to them by society. I am for helping all people get back on their feet, but with a positive payback to society for that help.

I support the death penalty for anyone with 3 serious felonious crimes, 3 strikes and you're out of life (not for life). Societies spend an inordinate amount of funds to house criminals that can not or will not function in society. For one homicide, you get the death penalty.

Illegal drugs should never be legalized.

Homosexual marriage should never be allowed. I would support civil unions for homosexuals only because there is no other option. It is one of the great conundrums of life.   

Government should be downsized where possible, but outsourcing to other countries should not be allowed. Outsourcing to U.S. citizens is prudent, but some jobs are inherently governmental.

NAFTA is a failure.

Illegal immigrants should not be given Amnesty.

The Death Tax is wrong.

There should be a strong and unwavering separation of church and state. I doubt that a Christian, Jew, etc. would want a Muslim President to publicly praise Allah or be compelled to adhere to the principles of the Koran in government buildings and institutions. The Bible, Koran, and all ecclesiastical references should be left out of government and let people practice their beliefs on a personal level.

Though not a clearly political (Democrat vs. Republican) I am against the Iraq invasion and we should leave soon. This was Mr. Bush's Christian Crusade and retribution for "them" trying to kill Bush Sr. and to "finish" the war his daddy started. This is just what would you expect a son to do to gain a father's admiration and pride. Once the Bush cabinet was formulated it was evident that the "Old Guard" was ready to go to war. I just did not think Mr. Bush and his Christian followers would lie to go to war and needlessly risk the lives of our soldiers.   
Also, I think the "war cabinet" was one reason why Saddam was so defiant and it was a provocation to all Muslims. I'm sure it appeared to them that all America, by electing another Bush and many of his father's former cabinet members, was determined to go to war against them. If Mr. O'Neill can be believed, this is more evidence supporting that view.

The biggest problem facing the world is the increase in mankind's population with the resultant overuse of nonrenewable resources. This is another great conundrum in life. As a father, I am not sure I want the government setting limits on family size, but some incentive should be given to people who voluntarily limit family size. Illegal immigration of cultures that have large families will only exacerbate the population problem.

I once was considering voting for Mr. Dean. I thought that as a physician he understood the scientific method and could apply that knowledge to logically work through societies problems. However, now I see him as the banty rooster of the Democratic Party, intelligent but not too smart. His demeanor is off-base and he does not seem to have consistent views.

As a veteran, I strongly considered Mr. Clark. His credentials as first in his class at West Point and being a Rhodes Scholar were very impressive. He seems to have a problem telling the truth much like Mr. Clinton, another Rhodes Scholar. Yet another great conundrum: wise, educated men who are very untruthful and of flawed character. I just don't understand that. I do understand Mr. Bush. He is transparently uneducated, dishonest, and a fool. He believes God speaks directly to him and that he is following God's direction. I will try to turn his speech off tonight before his obligatory valediction of "may God continue to bless America" (ughmurka) or "God Bless America".

So, about the only Democrat I could possibly vote for is John Kerry. If you can, give me some good reasons to vote for this man.
                
Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:52 PM

Sounds like you listed them yourself through a proce3ss of elimination, Cruiser.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:56 PM

Well, for one thing, Kerry had the balls to go to Vietnam and then the courage to work against that war after he was back and out of the Navy.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:57 PM

Amos, would you vote for Kerry and why or why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:20 PM

Cruiser.. you are obviously a thinking man who is aware of the various issues confronting up as a nation. Some of your positions are quite 'conservative', some are a bit more 'liberal'. NO party or candidate is likely to mirror 'precisely' what you believe...but you seem to be, above all, looking for an honest man who will do his best to be fair and listen.

In my view, several of the Democratic candidates would do this..(as would a number of Republicans whom you will not get to vote for this time around!) If you'd like to support someone who would at least not continue the unfortunate path Bush has taken, Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Clark all seem like they would do ok until the Republicans choose someone you could support next time around.

Since you value military service and knowlege, Kerry and Clark might be your best choices..(I am not sure that Clark is 'untruthful', as you seem to fret about..he is just still not well analyzed by the media and pundits, not having been 'in' politics that long.)

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:25 PM

"As a veteran, I strongly considered Mr. Clark. His credentials as first in his class at West Point and being a Rhodes Scholar were very impressive. He seems to have a problem telling the truth much like Mr. Clinton, another Rhodes Scholar. Yet another great conundrum: wise, educated men who are very untruthful and of flawed character. I just don't understand that. I do understand Mr. Bush. He is transparently uneducated, dishonest, and a fool. He believes God speaks directly to him and that he is following God's direction."

where's the contest? as you just said " wise,educated,untruthful, flawed character" vs. "uneducated, dishonest, fool, believes God speaks directly to him". choice number two has no possible upside and is a pretender to the defense of your conservative values and, if given an actual election to claim as mandate, can do untold damage to our system all only to enrich his cronies. i'd say vote for whichever dem wins the nomination and take your chances. you can't do worse than this puppet who will go down in history as the worst and most corrupt president in our history, all the while claiming to be more "moral" than his predecessor.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:47 PM

I don't think a true conservative Republican would need any help from liberals to determine why he/she should vote one way or the other. Listen to the facts and make up your own mind. You really have little choice anyway because it's going to be vote for Bush or vote for whoever the Democrats put up against him. Seems to me you have already made your choice.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:55 PM

I would vote for him if it was inevitable that he was outrunning Dr Dean. As for why, I believe he has integrity. You do have a third choice of course -- which is not to vote or to write in some third party.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:58 PM

Cruiser, I think you find yourself in that unfortunate position that many voters do these days: Your choice has to be made on the basis of who you least want in the White House, and that would appear to be Bush.

I have voted Republican in the past. This last time, I voted for Gore, not because I was so enthralled by him, but because Bush was obviously less qualified to hold the office and he had a lot of really weird ideas--and friends. After having seen Bush in action and more than confirmed my antipathy toward him, my concern is less who to vote for than who to vote against. I will cast my vote for whoever I feel has the best chance of defeating Bush. In short, whoever I vote for, I will be voting against Bush.

This is unfortunate. In fact, it's kind of disgusting. But that seems to be the political reality this country faces.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:09 PM

I am thrilled to reads this thread as this mirrors my thoughts very well.   I may not have the exact list that you have cruiser, but it is very very close. I also would like to see a man that can help mend a lot of fences that Mr. Bush has managed to totally screw up, largely with our European allies. I would really like to support a candidate that would move the country to the middle. I dislike the far right even more than I do the far left.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:14 PM

Cruiser, I really appreciate your stating your beliefs and your stand on a number of issues so clearly. That, in my experience, is a rare thing for a conservative to do. I don't agree with many of them but your views are at least as valid as mine. (In my heart of hearts, I of course don't believe that- or I wouldn't believe what I believe!)

I'd like to say though that if not having a 'flawed character' is a criterion for your support, you're just not going to find a person like that. The saying that everyone is a little bit crazy on at least one issue I suspect refers to the absolute fact that each of us is flawed. Churchill; Gandhi; Martin Luther King; (not to mention Martin Luther, a seriously flawed man; and, no doubt, even Mother Teresa. We all have our flaws and our tragedies. It seems to me that extraordinary abilities often go hand in hand with equal frailties. The best we can hope for is that the person's abilities will mesh with his or her aspirations and responsibilies.

If we but knew, we'd find that to be true of EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO EVER LIVED. Regardless, every one of us can be - and often is- of remarkable inspiration and efficacy in our lives and in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

DougR I want all sides of each issue, liberal, conservative, middle of the road, independent, or any other label we attach to politics. I believe you are a true conservative, but would you vote for a Republican that was at odds with your values just because of his political persuasion?

As you know, critical thinking forces one to look at all issues even those that might be diametrically opposed to your core views and biases. That is not an easy process to go through and takes more self-searching than most of us have time in this busy life. That is what I am trying to do here, because my best guess is this Mudcat forum is a bit skewed toward the liberal side. I don't need to go to a conservative site because I would only see many of my views reinforced.

I have not made up my mind except I will not vote for Mr. Bush. My intuition tells me he will probably win the election unless there are Republicans that are willing to vote against him.

I welcome your insight regarding why you would not vote for Kerry.


The other views expressed by others here are appreciated and helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:23 PM

Probably one of the least flawed presidents in my lifetime was Jimmy Carter. When he was elected (yes I did vote for him) I was so thrilled. When he walked down Pennsylvania Ave. during his inaugeral parade, I thought, "wow, here is a common man." I thought it was going to be the greatest ever for our country. Unfortunately, he was not as effective as I had hoped, possibly because he was not flawed enough to play the Washington games. I am not sure what all the problems were, but I was disappointed. He has been, however, a great ex president, and I think he is a good man.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:47 PM

A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman thinks of the next generation. I would have little fear of a true statesman of either party. But true statesmen seem to be in very short supply within recent years.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:57 PM

Ebbie:

I agree we are all flawed. I edited out a line about that in my first post because I thought I was philosophizing too much. A colleague of mine once said "it is hard to be perfect in an imperfect world" when I was dealing with an unethical issue involving another colleague. I just expect persons in high office to be "better" than me. I often wonder why all the good, ethical, honest, hard working, decent people I have known in life are not in political positions. Some of my college professors were outstanding and there are many fine people in all walks of life that I would look up to and admire as political leaders.

An honest, ethical person will have my support regardless of party affiliation.


jimmyt:

I agree about Carter. I was changing oil in one of my windmills when my grandmother hollered that Carter had won. Although a registered Republican, I was pleased to hear he won. He is a very decent, honest, educated man who was not an effective President. Is this another paradoxical problem of politics? If you don't play the games (sometimes unethical) history records you as an ineffective politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:03 PM

Don Firth:

That is a good distinction between a politician and a statesman. Is there a true statesman in the current Democratic field or one that comes close to that mark?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: nosluap57
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:34 PM

Great thread! Having voted for Bush three times in the past (twice for Texas governor), I too would dearly love to see a moderate democrat emerge as the nominee. Glad to see Dean derailed, glad to see Gephardt drop out.

I would vote for a democrat who would not repeal any of the Bush tax cuts. I could vote for a democrat who would roll back the tax cuts as long as he took a position to penalize corporations severly enough to deter them from outsourcing tech jobs overseas.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:59 PM

In past years I have voted Republican, Democratic and Independent. I have not been happy with George W. Bush as President. IMO, he has violated his responsibility to represent the people of this great land. He has lied to everyone, alienated our friends, brought unity to our enemies, and created such a huge deficit that our children and grandchildren will suffer from this presidency long into the forseeable future. I do not like the 2 party system that we have, but it is the system we must work under until it changes. I do not like the Electoral College system which will award all of Alaska's votes to GWB even though there are many of us that will vote against it. (Alaska has been in the Republican's pocket for many decades.) I will vote for whichever Democrat is finally nominated for the office, because that seems to be the only way we can retrieve what's left of our country from the clutches of the special interests. I do not know if this is the right thing to do, but I will do it even though my vote won't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 06:11 PM

your vote is "counted", Mike...if everyone votes his conscience, we will at least know how MANY didn't want Bush...(last time it was more than 50%!)

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 12:45 AM

You may want to reconsider Governor Dean. Check out his web site, and find out what he really says. (He's gotten a very bad press, lately.) There is a Republicans for Dean web site, you might want to check that out too.
Dean is a banty rooster, he's a fighter. That's what I like about him. He won't back down the way Clinton did. Kerry supported the Patriot Act. That's enough to make me mistrust him. Clark has had no real experience in government. It has been said that his main motive in running is to tell Bush&Company what he thinks of them. A fine thing to do, but not the best reccomendation.
I'm voting Democratic this November no matter WHO gets the nomination. Bush is a disaster. Almost anyone would be better.
Oh! I've heard that that judge in Mississippi, the one who put up a Ten Commandments monument in his court house is thinking of running for president. I am, of course hoping for it. He would take votes away from Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:04 AM

LadyJean,

I will visit the Republicans for Dean web site. Thanks.

Dean's demeanor is an issue with me. I know he is under stress during the campaign, but some of his actions are distinctly not presidential.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:12 AM

I utterly agree with Cruiser's comments about Dean in the post previous to this one. I have a strong intuitive feeling that Dean would be a loose cannon in the presidency.

Would you please explain the Electoral College, and how your vote wouldn't count? I don't understand that at all. If you don't have time, I'll research it on my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:32 AM

There's an official explanation of the Electoral College but, to me, the way it shakes down is that there are effectively two different elections being held.

One is the one vote, one person election- the people's voice. This is the one that Gore won in 2000. The people's favorite usually is the same as that of the electoral college.

However, there are and have been exceptions.

The Electoral College consists of the states' votes. Each state has two senate votes and x number of representative votes, depending on the population in that state. For instance, Alaska is a big state physically but is very lightly populated, so we have two senators as everyone does but just one representative, which makes us a non-interesting state to campaigning candidates. On the other hand, California, New York, Florida, Illinois, among others, are densely populated states and they are of vital importance. The winning candidate has to garner at least one vote more than half of the electoral votes.

The electoral college is not voted on by the people; instead the states's voters vote for a slate of delegates, and that becomes the Electoral College. The delegates will attend the election night activities and the delegates are the ones who are allowed to abandon the candidate in whose name they were sent in order to throw their votes to a perceived winner. That frequently happens, but usually not until a second or third vote when the deals start being struck.

In 2000, the difficulty was that the electoral college was dependent on the outcome of a very close race. The people's vote was for Gore, but Florida's corrupted political process and its outdated hardware kept the numbers from being known.

In a normal election Florida's problems would probably have been scarcely noticed because previously it wasn't crucial to the election.

I'm sure I have greatly over-simplified the process, and am just plain wrong on a number of things but to me, that's how it shakes down.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:43 AM

Cruiser: I'm really curious about why you think NAFTA is a failure.

Here in Canada many of us think the same thing because it is really taking power away from our government and giving it to Corporations. What do you think are the American views against it?

S

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:36 AM

Cruiser, I was a Dean supporter and a contributor in the beginning. However, the cracks began to show, and when he lost it with that republican shill who heckled him, that told me he is not the man for the job.
Edwards would be my first choice, but he lacks experience. Kerry has a REAL military record; he didn't dodge the draft and join the national guard, then go AWOL for a year.
I did not watch the state of the union address because the very sight and sound of this lying phony is more than I can stand.
My party will caucus next month, and I will be in Kerry's corner. I'm convinced he is the only one who can beat Bush. Hell, all he has to do is compare his military record with the Shrub's!

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 08:00 AM

Kerry is a weasel who, in voting for both the Patriot [sic] Act and the invasion of Iraq shows that despite his previous stance on Viet Nam he didn't really learn a great deal from the experience. Too large a measure of the Vicar of Bray in the man.

That said, should he end up the Democrat nominee, I'll hold my nose and vote for the weasel. The country cannot stand another 4 years of the BuShites.

Anyone But Bush!

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:10 AM

Cruiser, there is a web site where you select the answers to issues that most agree with your answers and then it gives you a list of candidates, Democratic and Republican, that agree with you in descending order, agreeing most to least. After that, you have to judge their character, intelligence, etc., to make a choice.

http://www.selectsmart.com/PRESIDENT/

Dean is a fiscal conservative, is adamant about balanced budgets, also about prevention - prevention of crime and poverty by helping children from birth onward to be in stable homes and prepared for school. His programs in Vermont reduced child abuse and molestation drastically and Vermont now as the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the country. His approach is to prevent costs from increasing (prison/crime costs, environmental costs, welfare costs) as well as balancing budgets. His programs after 5 terms of governor have proven that they work. See this site regarding a foundation he created before he became a presidential candidate:
Fund for A Healthy America
http://www.fundforahealthyamerica.com/HowardDean.asp



Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:26 PM

Edwards is fresh and clean

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:54 PM

After you use selectsmart.com to compare your views with the politicians, I'd be interested in seeing how your beliefs line up with what the candidates profess to believe.

alice

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 03:58 PM

Is there a true statesman in the current Democratic field or one that comes close to that mark?

I really don't know, Cruiser. All too often, one can't identify the true statesman until after they've had their chance, and sometimes not until a long time after.

I would regard Franklin D. Roosevelt as a true statesman. He had particularly vociferous enemies at the time (still does, for that matter), but he had the intelligence to see both the problem and the solution, and the force of personality and the persuasive ability to get the citizenry behind him. He explained in plain terms (in his "Fireside Chats" every week) exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it. It made sense to people, he did what he said he would do, and it worked. Despite the fact that his solutions were exceedingly unpopular with special interests, and despite powerful opposition, he implemented the measures necessary to end the Depression and put people back to work. The prosperity of the Fifties had less to do with the aftermath of World War II than it did with laws that Roosevelt managed to get passed. His primary goal was to work for the good of all the people, not just special interests. ("Great God A'mighty, gonna need 'im again!")

Lots of people of both parties hated Harry Truman at the time, but history is beginning to examine him in a new light and it turns out that he was a lot better than people thought at the time. For example, he integrated the Armed Forces, not by dickering and debating with the Chiefs of Staff (as Clinton tried to do, and lost, on the gays in the military issue) simply by walking in, issuing an executive order (he was the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, after all), then turning on his heel and walking out. You may not have liked him, but you sure as hell knew where he stood!

Dwight D. Eisenhower had many characteristics of a statesman. He was perfectly willing to take an unpopular stand if he sincerely believed he was right. And although it was not in the interests of some of his supporters, he went ahead and tried to warn the country about the dangers of the military-industrial complex. These were truly prophetic words, and today we are reaping the bitter harvest of failing to sufficiently heed Eisenhower's warning.

John F. Kennedy got off to a pretty good start, but his life was cut short. He, too, had the intelligence and the charisma, and he showed strong evidence that his interest, too, was the good of the whole country. There are those who claim that he would have been one of the greatest presidents ever, but there are also those who claim that if given a few more years, his inadequacies would have become obvious. We'll never really know.

Lyndon Johnson? Some very good things, but some really bad things as well. Johnson was deeply flawed. Politician more than statesman.

Nixon? Ford? No.

I think Jimmy Carter, with his genuine honesty, sincerity, and concern, could have been a true statesman, but somehow he was never given the chance. I think he had the intelligence and the genuine concern for the good of the country, but perhaps lacked the force of personality.

There are those who regard Ronald Reagan as a statesman, but mainly what I saw Reagan doing was intentionally undoing much of the work of FDR, who put restrictions on the powerful special interests that got the country into the Depression in the first place. Reagan unleashed the Dogs of Greed and set the stage for George W. Bush and his extreme right-wing friends. Reagan's concern was not for the citizenry; he was concerned for the multinational corporations, and his administration also had a rather disturbing fundamentalist religious overtone—as does the Bush administration. They called Reagan the "Great Communicator," but I sure couldn't see it. An analysis of his speeches reveals that he spoke in strings of platitudes, bumper-stickers, and T-shirt messages without saying anything of substance. All frosting, no cake. Highly effective politician, but statesman? Absolutely not!

Bush Senior? Clinton? No way!

The problem is that one seems to be able to identify a true statesman only in retrospect. But—there are certain marks that may identify a politician who has the potential of being a statesman. Does the he or she genuinely seem to have the good of the people as a whole as a paramount goal? A bit hard to tell, because they all try to sound like they do. Listen to what they say. Then watch what they do. Personal integrity demands that they be consistent. Truth demands that they be consistent.

One possible test: when push comes to shove, will they take an unpopular stand on a matter of principle?   You can often tell a great deal about the character of a person by looking at the enemies he or she makes. Another clue: do they learn? Are they willing to change their minds? Kerry won a few points with me when challenged on voting in favor of the Patriot Act, by saying, without weaseling or equivocation, "I was wrong." He didn't just dig in his heels and try to defend it. Not that I'm necessarily recommending Kerry at this point, but I am watching him.

I don't know, Cruiser. I wish I did. I can't say that I'm greatly impressed with the current lot, but even the least of them I like far better than George W. Bush. Any one of them could emerge as a genuine statesman. Lieberman is probably the most conservative. Kucinich is probably the most progressive. As I keep saying, I will be working for and voting for whichever candidate emerges from the Democratic Convention. The main idea is that any one of them will be better for the health of the country and of the world than George W. Bush.

We've tried Bush, and he has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the potential for statesmanship is not in him. Time to try someone else, before Bush and his friends finish turning this country to the neo-feudal state they seem to want.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:10 PM

Thanks for the explanation of the Electoral College, Ebbie. As I understand it, the people get to vote on the candidate that shakes down via the representatives' choice at the convention, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:32 PM

Thanks for the comments and links.
I will respond later, my job calls.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:36 PM

Yeh. It's not a really classy process but it often works in spite of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:11 PM

Cruiser, Kerry is in many ways an old-fashioned style liberal. And I mean "liberal," not "progressive." He's quite a bit to the left of Dean, who isn't very leftie at all. Kerry may not be your kind of candidate, despite his admirable service record. In truth, Clark probably seems the best fit for you, at least from what you've said here.

Although among major candidates my views most closely align with Dean, I've said from the beginning that I smell a rat in Dean. He talks a good game, but his views frequently change depending on what he thinks his current listener wants to hear, and while lambasting Bush for $2000 a plate fundraising dinners in order to raise $50 pledges on the internet, that hasn't stopped Dean from having plenty of his own $2000 dinners. There may be nothing wrong with that, but I think there is something wrong with being a hypocrite about it. I find Dean deeply disappoints me.

Yes, yes, I know Alice. You think he's sliced bread. I don't :)

I'd still vote for him (or any other yeller dog except Lieberman) instead of Bush without thinking twice about it, but Kucinich will be getting my vote in the primary. Even in the unlikely scenario that Kucinich won the nomination and the election, he might turn out to be another Carter. But hey, the world needs more Jimmy Carters anyway, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:27 PM

The practical effects of the electoral college system, pdc, is that if I vote for the Democratic contender but more than 50% of the voters in Alaska vote for the Republican, then all 3 of our electoral votes will go to Bush. So even though I cast my vote one way, unless I am in the majority, the electoral votes will go to someone I did not vote for. That is why I stated that my vote won't count. For this reason, the Electoral system should be abolished.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:43 PM

I agree with AlaskaMike. Supposedly, the EC was instituted to give the small states an equal voice- but I don't see that it works that way.

Mike, are you for RunOff voting? I was, tentatively, then I read of the many complications that are attached to that so I gave it up.

You know, we are in a very different situation nowadsys from when the constitution was created. Back in those days, a president could be elected for three WEEKS before the farflung populace knew it. Today, thanks to exit polling we are told the winner BEFORE he is elected.

It just seems like we could re-shape things to fit modern times. I still have a lot of hope for the computer age- for instance, it should never happen these days that a mechanic newly enlisted in the army should be made a camp cook- but we are not making much use of it in many important ways. Ah, well, the age is still in its infancy.

Don't get me wrong- I don't want touch-screen voting - or at least not until a paper trail is fixed and mandatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:15 PM

Yo, Cruiser,

Jus' hold yer danged nose and do it...

I didn't like Clinton one danged bit and voted Green. I supported Nadar in 2000 and consider myself a Greenie but, probably fir different reasons, I'll not only vote, but work fir the Dem, in the coming election.

And Bush isn't exactly a conservative. He throws the conservatives a few bones (gay marriages, abortions, etc.) but other than that he is one flaming liberal...

Makes me think of myself as a conservative.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 08:25 PM

"My intuition tells me [Bush] will probably win the election unless there are Republicans that are willing to vote against him."

Very true. Here's the thing: 45% of voters will vote Republican, no matter what. 45% will vote Democrat, no matter what. It's the remaining 10% that's crucial. Bush has alienated many true conservatives, and the hope to defeat him lies with folks like Cruiser. We must establish a dialogue with that 10% and do whatever we can, between now and November, to help them decide that Bush and his criminal cronies are bad for America.

The problem with the voting public is that any candidate must appear "presidential", meaning serious, respectable and level-headed, and at the same time come across as down-to-earth and charming. Not an easy thing to pull off. Plus it helps if he's attractive.

The Democratic choices are not so great, obviously. The biggest problem with Kerry is that he's a New England patrician, just like Bush Sr and Jr (no, they're not Texans), and a member of the same Skull & Bones secret society. And he's ugly.

Dean, of course, is not at all "presidential" (witness his little scream-fest after Iowa). Neither are Kucinich or Sharpton. And they're all ugly.

Lieberman might be able to fake "presidential", but not down-to-earth or charming. And he's ugly.

Edwards has good looks, and charm in spades (practiced in many courtroom appearances, no doubt), but is too young to be convincingly "presidential". And as a lawyer, he has a credibility problem.

It appears to me that Clark's public persona is best suited to the task of defeating Bush. He has military cred, is reasonably good-looking, smart and funny, and should be able to easily out-debate Bush. Of course we don't yet know where he stands on many issues, and he already switched part affiliation once, but hey, you can't have everything.

I believe Clark is the man most likely to have a chance of winning against Bush.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,LDB
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:11 PM

Forget about voting for the PERSON for president, and look only at the PARTY. Then make sure the party you choose is opposite of the party in power in congress. That way nothing gets done which is the best thing that can happen given the sorry-ass bunch of politicians around today.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,Johnny in OKC
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:08 PM

Cruiser, you are a conservative. GWB (I can't bring myself to call him President either) is not a conservative. A Trillion dollar deficit? -- you can't call that conservative.

So just tell your friends you're a Conservative Democrat, and vote democrat. What's the problem?

If it's not too late to do so in your state, register democrat. If you like Kerry, vote for Kerry. He may be Skull & Bones, but at least he can pronounce "nuclear".

I'm still for Howard Dean. So what, if he gets excited? If you want "reserved", you could wind up with someone like that model of propriety, Martin Van Buren, now universally recognized as our most forgettable president.

Regarding the Electoral College ... I believe some states divide their electoral votes in proportion to the people's vote, and other states are "winner take all". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!   

I wish they would do away with winner-take-all. It might have made the difference in the 2000 election.

Thanks, Cruiser, for your excellent post!
JOHNNY in OKC

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Peg
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 10:41 AM

hey, that's a good idea for a drinking game; drink every time the Shrub says "nucular" during the SOTU...and maybe throw in his overuse of "the American people" so you can be feeling no (or at least less) pain by the end...

Whatever happened to Bill Bradley???

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 01:00 PM

The only draw back I see to Lieberman, aside from a pretty good "conservative" voting record, is his religion. Normally I wouldn't give a rats ass about it but with all of the trouble right now in the middle east, he hasn't got an iota of crecibility with the leaders of that area. They already think we are in Israel's back pocket. His election would only confirm it to them and then the whole process breaks down. Great man, wrong time!

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:10 AM

Alice:

I visited the SelectSmart.com site.

All my percentages were in the 50's except for Clark at 36% and Bush at 34%.

Dean was 53%, Edwards 52% Kerry 51% (tied with the Green Party and Lieberman) The big surprise was Gephardt at 57%.

"If your top score is in the 50's, your top candidate is the "lesser of evils"

This is just one step in a long thought-provoking process.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:45 PM

You are welcome.
alice

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:57 PM

Cruiser: no I would not vote for a Republican if he/she did not represent my core values.

I would encourage you to vote for Howard Dean.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:03 PM

Cruiser, unless you are going to a Democratic caucus or voting as a Democrat in a primary, picking a candidate out of the current field of Democrats is fairly academic at this point. We will actually get to vote for only one of them, and he (or perhaps a "dark-horse" she) will be selected at the Democratic Convention. In the meantime, watch, listen, learn, think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:27 PM

Johnny on OKC:

No states split electotrial votes. I like your idea, also about pro-rating delagates. I would seem to be more domocratic and something that given the 1876 and 2000 elections would probably meet with approval from the Founding Fathers.

Now, I hate to thread creep but the Dems are gonna need at least 53% of the vote to balance the "undervote" which tend to favor the Repubs and the corruption that the Repubs have inflicted on the elections (see Greg Palist's "Best Democracy Money Can Buy" for starters...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 06:20 PM

Don: You are right, just academic. Discussions like this might get Democrats to consider pulling together behind one candidate so he could win the election against Mr. Bush.

DougR: I think I possibly could vote for Kerry if he is on the Democratic ticket, but probably not for Dean. I may not vote at all, which would be hard for me to do.

Anyway, I enjoyed the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:24 PM

If Kerry is the nominee, I will hold my nose and vote for him. I will vote for whoever stands the best chance of "de-lousing" the White House.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:26 PM

.....Even though my Electoral College votes will all go to the Shrub.