Origins: Age of 'East Virginia'?

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:58 PM

In the previous posting (third line), it should read you can 'hear' the 're' of 'there' - it was only a slip; my spelling hasn't gotten that bad as yet!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:21 PM

Stewie-

Thanks. You are, in my opinion, one of the best researchers at Mudcat. You really put some great lyrics on here. I have used Uncle Dave's lyrics as a basis for one of my songs entitled, "Go Long Mule." You can change a fool but a doggone mule is a mule until he dies. Did you ever know anyone that reminds you of a mule? As for spelling-fh wii ;

Back to the Kazee-don't you think this line would be best sung (edited)?

Her papa said that we might marry, Her mama said it would not do. Some dark night we'll take a ramble, I will run away with you.

Aslo I finally looked through my Child ballads and and there is a slight connection of "East Virginia" (the "O Molly dear"- "Drowsy Sleeper" ) with Child 214 'The Braes O' Yarrow' or the 'Dowie Den's O Yarrow'. This is one of my favorite tragedies: Niles has several versions from Appalachia and Peggy Seeger has collected one. The meter 3/4 time is the same as is the melodic structure, with similar phrases and lyrics. Here's an example of one line from my notebooks:

O mother dear, go make my bed, Go make it neat and narrow. For my love died for me tonight, I will die for him tommorrow.

It seems possible that the "O mother dear" line could be entertwined with our tragic ballad, "O Molly dear".

Any thoughts, anyone?

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:55 PM

I guess all of our material on "Awake" is covered by copyright. Older versions British and American are a chimera to mislead us into heresy. I came across this website: Ritchie
"In spite of several references to 'Awake' as a traditional American Folk Song, it is our belief that it should be credited to Ms. Jean Ritchie, and future pressings of the album will reflect this change. Awake verse 4 copyright 1953-1965 Jean Ritchie Geordie Music Publishing Co. ASCAP Arr. Fraser (Scott Fraser 2001, Oannes Music ASCAP)"

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 12:09 AM

Backing away from © nonsense, another possible relationship is pointed to by a song called "The Lover's Ghost," set by Ralph Vaughan Williams, "also known as "The Suffolk Miracle," "The Grey Cock," and "The Drowsy Sleeper."" Seems to be stretching it too far from my (faint) memory of these songs but I haven't re-checked the texts. Lover's Ghost
Apparently a German site.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 01:07 AM

Dicho-

One of my pet peeves are people that claim to ownership of any folksong. Even the people that the songs were first collected from got them from someone else! (It was gracious of Frank Warner to share the royalties of Tom (Dula)Dooley but did Frank Proffit write Tom Dooley?) You can arrange a folksong but only the extent that it differs from any exsisting version can you claim ownership- not to the entire song! That really is a great example of copyright abuse by a copyright holder- Right on Dicho.

The Lover's Ghost above seems to be more a variant of "The House Carpenter" Child 243 with the "Well met" line but some versions of the "Suffolk Miracle" in the US have an "O Father," line plus the meter (3/4) and cadence are similar.

Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 01:46 AM

A Canadian variant of "The Drowsy Sleeper;" "Who Is At My Window Weeping." ("Arise, arise, and pity me;" a "shining sword" instead of a dagger). "The Drowsy Sleeper" and "Silver Dagger" are entangled with each other in many variants. Who Is At My Window Weeping?

Subject: Lyr Add: SLEEPY DESERT
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:53 AM

Richie,

I couldn't agree more. The last 2 lines of the third stanza are rather clumsy. In his truncated version for Folkways [FS 381], Kazee omitted his original second stanza and changed stanza 3, to become stanza 2:

Her papa said that we must marry
Her mother said it would not do
So come here, dear, and I will tell you
I will take you far from here

He then continues with the 2-line stanza and concludes with the 'dark holler' stanza. This is better, but I prefer your suggestion. These songs are not meant to be set in concrete. Tim Eriksen [of Cordelia's Dad] puts it beautifully in his essay in the booklet accompanying the first volume of the Warner Collection on CD. He is talking about field recordings, but the early old-time commercial recordings, particularly of the 1920s, were just as important in terms of preserving 'the tradition':

If we wear the feathers of an eagle will we acquire her speed? If we collect field recordings will we attain 'tradition'? The idea that such things are possible is esoteric magic, and is as old as Adam. The value in this music, however real it may be, can't exist outside of perception and experience. It simply can't be preserved or materialised - though the recordings contain its echo, calling it to mind. It seems to me the only reliable way to keep something alive is to live it, thinking less about what we have and what we know and more about what we do with it. I doubt we can keep the past alive any more than it already is, and what we call 'tradition' is probably our most durable storage format. Everything we live will become something, and everything we set in stone will remain there until it becomes nothing, or someone makes something of it. In ten million years the English language is likely to have turned into something, though unfamiliar, but all the books we know, along with this CD, are likely to have gone to nothing (though not without making their contribution). The cool thing is that this music is present, it's perceivable, and it's ready to live if we give it a home. We can even sing these songs and, with diligence, sing them well. [Tim Eriksen, p30 of his essay in booklet insert to Various Artists 'Her Bright Smile Haunts Me Still: The Warner Collection Vol I' Appleseed APR CD-1035]

The recording of Wilmer Watts' 'Sleepy Desert' was cleaned up better than I recalled. I think I got most of it - uncertain bits in brackets. Corrections anyone?

SLEEPY DESERT

Wake, oh wake, you sleepy desert
Wake, oh wake, it's a-comin' day
Oh stick your head out of the window
See what your true lover say

Some people says that courting's pleasure
Oh what pleasure do I see
When the dearest girl in this world
Has done and turned her back on me

Wake, oh wake, you sleepy desert
Wake, oh wake, it's a-comin' day
Oh stick your head out of the window
See what your true lover say

There's no one (to follow to) bedroom
There's no one to sleep with me
I got a wife way up in heaven
And the Lord knows she loves me

Wake, oh wake, you sleepy desert
Wake, oh wake, it's a-comin' day
Oh stick your head out of the window
See what your true lover say

You (needn't to bother) to ask my papa
He's in his room a-takin' his rest
And in his hand he holds a weapon
To kill the man that I love best

Source: transcription of Wilmer Watts and His Lonely Eagles 'Sleepy Desert' recorded 29 or 30 October 1929 in New York City and issued as Paramount 3282. Reissued on Various Artists 'Times Ain't Like They Used To Be: Early American Rural Music Vol III' Yazoo CD 2047.

Watts was from North Carolina and worked in the cotton mills. Band member, Palmer Rhyne, duetted on vocals on 'Sleepy Desert' and the pair were accompanied by an unidentified, but tasty, steel guitarist.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: SILVER DAGGER (from Joan Baez)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 11:49 AM

Contemplator has a variant of "Silver Dagger" with a new twist, apparently sung by Joan Baez. Imagery is added from the old spiritual, "Mary Had Three Links Of Chain."

Lyr. Add: SILVER DAGGER (Baez)

Don't sing love songs, you'll wake my mother
She's sleeping here right by my side
And in her right hand a silver dagger,
She says I can't be your bride.

All men are false, says my mother,
They'll tell you wicked, lovin' lies.
The very next evening, they'll court another,
Leave you alone to pine and sigh.

My daddy is a handsome devil
He's got a chain five miles long,
And on every link a heart does dangle
Of another maid he's loved and wronged.

Go court another tender maiden,
And hope that she will be your wife,
For I've been warned, and I've decided
To sleep alone all of my life.

With midi. Silver Dagger

Subject: Lyr Add: THE DROWSY SLEEPER and THE SILVER DAGGER
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:12 PM

Cox gives 2 versions of 'Drowsy Sleeper', one under the title 'Silver Dagger' 'probably because the last 2 stanzas of it belong to that song'. For English and Scots references, Cox cites 'The Journal of American Folk-Lore' XX, p260. Of particular interest is this note: ' "The Drowsy Sleeper" an interesting variant of a song know, in a Nithsdale version, to Allan Cunningham , and given in part in a note to "O, my love's like a red, red rose" in his edition of Burns, 1834, iv, 285 (Kittredge "Journal" XX, p260'.

For American texts, Cox references several volumes of the 'Journal' [XX, 260, Kentucky; XXIX, 200, Georgia; XXX, 338, Missouri, Kentucky, Indiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Utah; XXXV, 356, Ohio]. Other references are to Sharp, Belden, Campbell and Sharp, Sturgis and Hughes, Pound and others.

The two Cox texts are reproduced below. He also has two variants of 'Silver Dagger' as his #109. Below also is a transcription of a field recording of an Illinois version of 'Drowsy Sleeper' which includes a variant of the 'willow' stanza.

THE DROWSY SLEEPER

'Rouse up, rouse up, you drowsy sleeper
Rouse up, 'tis almost day
Open your doors, let down your window
What your true love has to say'

'Go away from my window, you'll waken my mother
This thing you call courting, she does despise
Go way, go way, and court some other
For what I say, I mean no harm'

'I won't go way nor court no other
For you are the one that I love best
For you are the one that I love dearly
And in your arms I hope to rest'

'Go way from my window, you'll waken my father
Who is taking his rest
For under his pillow there lies a weapon
To kill the one that I love best'

'Down in yon meadow there lies a sharp arrow
I'll draw it across my peaceful breast
It will cut off all love and sorrow
And send my peaceful soul to rest'

Source: John Harrington Cox 'Folk-Songs of the South' #108A. Communicated by Miss Violet Noland, Davis, Tucker County, West Virginia, 24 March 1916. Obtained from Mr John Raese who learned it when a boy and wrote it down in 1880.

THE SILVER DAGGER

'O Mary, go and ask your mother
If you my wedded bride may be
And if she says no, pray come and tell me
And I'll no longer trouble thee'

'I dare not go and ask my mother
For she said she would part us
Then, Willie, go and ask another',
She gently whispered in his ear

'Then, Mary, go and ask your father
If you my wedded wife may be
And if he says no, pray come and tell me
And I'll no longer trouble thee'

'I dare not go and ask my father
For at night he lies at rest
Close to his side there lies a dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best'

Then William drew a silver dagger
And pierced it to his aching heart
Saying, 'Here's farewell, my own true lover'
Saying, 'Here's farewell for we must part'

Then Mary drew that silver dagger
And pierced it in her snow-white breast
Saying, 'Here's farewell to father and mother
Farewell to all that I love best'

Source: John Harrington Cox 'Folk-Songs of the South' #108B. Communicated by Miss Maud I. Jefferson, West Liberty, Ohio County, West Virginia, 1917. Obtained from Miss Roberts.


AWAKE, ARISE, YOU DROWSY SLEEPER

'Awake, arise, you drowsy sleeper
Awake, arise, 'tis almost day
And open wide your bedroom window
Hear what your true love has to say'

'Oh, Mary dear, go ask your father
Whether you my bride may be
And if he says no, love, come and tell me
It's the very last time I'll trouble thee'

'I dare not go to ask my father
For he lies on his couch of rest
And by his side he keeps a weapon
To slay the one that I love best'

'Oh, Mary dear, go ask your mother
Whether you my bride may be
And if says no, love, come and tell me
It's the very last time I'll trouble thee'

'I dare not go to ask my mother
To let her know my love is near
But, dearest dear, go court some other',
She gently whispered in my ear

'Oh, Mary dear, oh dearest Mary,
It is for you my heart will break
From North to South to Pennsylvania
I'll roam the ocean for your sake'

'And now I'll go down by some silent river
And there I'll spend my days and years,
And there I'll plant a weeping willow
Beneath its shade I'll shed my tears'

'Come back, come back, my wounded lover
Come back, come back to me, I pray
And I'll forsake both father, mother
And with you I'll run away'

Source: Duncan Emrich 'American Folk Poetry: An Anthology' Little, Brown and Company 1974, p83. Transcription of 'Awake, Arise, You Drowsy Sleeper' recorded by Aubrey and Phyllis Pinkerton from the singing of Lester A. Coffee, Harvard, Illinois, 1946. Library of Congress record LP55. Laws M4.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BROKEN ENGAGEMENT
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:50 PM

Lyr. Add: THE BROKEN ENGAGEMENT

She was standing by her window
As the breezes kissed her cheek.
He had waited long in silence,
Waited long for her to speak.

Then at last she gave an answer
As she raised her tear-filled eyes
With, oh, such a look of anger
That it filled him with surprise.

"They tell me that you love another,
That you never did love me-
If these words be true, my darling,
I'll forever set you free."

"They are true, my dear, he answered,
"True as the shining stars above;
When they told you I was innocent,
There they told you of my love."

"Goodbye, darling, I must leave you;
On the streets just pass me by;
Don't forget that I still love you,
For to save my life I die."

God in heaven sent an angel
To relieve her dreadful pain;
Then she drifted on to heaven
On an angel's snow-white wing.

He was standing by her casket
As he gazed into her face;
Then he realized that he loved her,
That no one could take her place.

Mrs. Irvin Thompson, Silsbee, Texas. From Texas Folk Songs, William A. Owens, 1950, pp. 172-173 with music. (Will email a scan if wanted)

Some collectors relate this song to "Drowsy Sleeper" but I believe that it is separate. It also seems to be incomplete.

Subject: Lyr Add: IN OLD VIRGINNY
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 11:32 PM

East Virginia- "In Old Virginny" Sharp No.167-D

This is the last Sharp version I have in my notebook. I will post one of the "Silver Dagger" versions as they are different than what has been posted so far.

IN OLD VIRGINNY
Sharp No. 167- D
Sung by Mrs. Effie Mitchell at Burnsville, NC Oct. 6, 1918

Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Foreign land, I'm bound to go,
Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Your fair face, I'll see no more.

When I'm asleep, I'm dreaming about you,
When I'm awake, see no rest.
Every moment seems like an hour,
O that pain across my chest!

My mamma says, she is not willing,
My daddy says it'll never do.
O fair Miss, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

This is a really bluesy version and different. Although Sharp has the measure lines and meter wrong (should be ¾) it's straight forward and easily adapted. There's has a great change to the b7 chord (C chord in the key of D major).

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 12:10 AM

IN OLD VIRGINNY Sharp No 167 D; Sung by Mrs. Effie Mitchell At Burnsville, NC Oct. 6. 1918

Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Foreign land, I'm bound to go,
Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Your fair face, I'll see no more.

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about you,
When I'm awake, see no rest.
Every moment seems like an hour,
O that pain across my chest!

My mamma says, she is not willing,
My daddy says it'll never do.
O fair Miss, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

I have reposted to try and get the HTML right. This is the last Sharp version I have in my notebook. I will post one of the "Silver Dagger version as they are different than what has been posted so far.

This is a really bluesy version and different. Although Sharp has the measure lines and meter wrong (should be ¾) it's straight forward and easily adapted. There's has a great change to the b7 chord (C chord in the key of D major).

- Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 05:40 AM

Ralph Stanley's "East Virginia Blues" [no credit given] on Ralph Stanley And the Clinch Mountain Boys 1971-1973 [4-disc box set] (Rebel REB-4001) is different from the one posted by Richie (Date: 23-Aug-02 - 09:41 PM), except the first two stanzas, which are not identical either. To my knowledge, released versions by the Carter Family are the already posted two; of the two takes of "East Virginia Blues #2" on 7 May 1935, one (17482-1) is "unissued" (Kip Lornell, Virginia's Blues, Country, & Gospel Records 1902-1943). On the 4 Border Radio CDs (three are by Arhoolie) I have, this song is not contained. My unfounded guess: if the original credit was simply to "Carter", it doesn't mean "The Carter Family", but Carter Stanley.

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SILVER DAGGER
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 08:12 AM

Lyr. Add: THE SILVER DAGGER

Young men and maids, pray lend attention,
To these few lines, I'm going to write.
Concerning to you to you whose names are mentioned,
Who courted a fair and a beauty bright.

And then her old parents came to know,
They strove to part him and his dear,
They strove to part him and his dear jewel;
He strove and strived and he often strived.

And on her bended knee she bow-ed,
Saying: "Cruel parents, come pity me.
If me and my true love do part,
What will this whole world now be to me."

She turned her back upon the city,
She viewed those fields and meadows around,
She wandered across some fair, broad river,
And there in the shade of a tree sat down.

She pulled out her bright silver weapon,
She pierced it through her tender breast.
Then she began to reel and stagger,
Saying, "Oh true love, I'm going to rest."

Then her true love not a-being far behind her,
He heard her awful seethes and mourns;
She wandered up like a man that was distracted;
I'm lost, I'm ruined, I'm left alone.

She opened up her pretty blue eyes,
Saying, "Cruel parents, you've come to late,
Go try and meet me in all those Zions,
Where all our joys will be complete."

He picked up that bloody weapon,
He pierced it through his tender heart,
Now let this day be an awful warning,
To all true loves that parents part.

Sharp No. 157-A Sung by Mr. Allen at White Rock, Va. May 8, 1918

Notes: The first of two Sharp "Silver Dagger" ballads from my notebook. The tune is in ¾ meter and Dorian mode (Dm). The next to last verse should be edited: She opened up her pretty blue eyes, Saying, "My true love, you've come to late," etc. It certainly makes no sense to have her parents there, probably a juxtaposition from the third verse.

-Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: ARISE, ARISE
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM

To pursue for a moment the English connection, here is a set from Cecil Sharp's collection, noted in 1907. The link at the end is to a midi file; textual correspondences can be misleading on their own, so the melody is often an integral part of any consideration of relationships.

ARISE, ARISE

(Noted by Cecil Sharp from Jack Barnard, Bridgwater, Somerset, 1907)

Arise, arise, you pretty maiden,
Arise, arise, it is almost day,
And come unto your bedroom window
And hear what your true love do say.

Begone, begone, you'll awake my father,
My mother she can quickly hear;
Go and tell your tales unto some other
And whisper softly in their ear.

I won't be gone for I love no other,
You are the girl that I adore;
It's I, my dear, who love you dearly,
It's the pain of love that have brought me here.

Then the old man heard the couple talking,
He so nimbly stepped out of bed,
Putting his head out of the window,
Johnny dear was quickly fled.

Now daughter dear, tell me the reason
You will not let me take my silent rest.
I'll have you confined to your silent bedchamber
And your true love to sea I will press.

Now father dear, pay down my fortune,
It's full five thousand pounds, you know,
That I may cross the briny ocean
Where the stormy winds do blow.

Now daughter dear, you may ease your own mind
'Tis for your sweet sake that I say so;
If you cross the briny ocean
Without your fortune you must go.

Text from Susie Clarke per Jack Barnard at Bridgwater, 6 April 1907.

Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs, ed. Maud Karpeles; vol.I no.78, p.329. OUP 1974.

Roud 402 Laws M12

Arise, Arise (midi)

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:31 AM

t turns out that the Cunningham note referred to in Stephen Sedley's book (see above) is more extensive than I had guessed, so I reproduce it here as quoted in the Journal of the Folk Song Society, vol.I issue 5, 1904: p.269; which was probably Sedley's source. It accompanied a fragmentary set of Drowsy Sleeper, there entitled O, Who is it that Raps at My Window, noted by W. Percy Merrick in c.1899 from the prolific Henry Hills of Lodsworth in Sussex, who had learned it from his mother. The note was added by Lucy Broadwood.

"For the following very interesting information see the note on O, my luve's like a red, red rose in Alan Cunningham's Works of Robert Burns (1834). Cunningham writes: 'An old Nithsdale song seems to have been in the Poet's thoughts when he wrote this exquisite lyric... Martha Crosbie, a carder and spinner of wool, sometimes desiring to be more than commonly acceptable to the children of my father's house, made her way to their hearts by singing... the following ancient strain:-

"Who is this under my window?
Who is this that troubles me?"
"O, it is I, love, and none but I, love,
I wish to speak one word with thee.

Go to your mother, and ask her, jewel,
If she'll consent you my bride to be;
And, if she does na, come back and tell me,
This is the last time I'll visit thee."

"My mother's in her chamber, jewel,
And of lover's talking will not hear;
Therefore you may go and court another,
And whisper softly in her ear."

The song proceeds to relate how mother and father were averse to the lover's suit, and that, exasperated by their scorn, and the coldness of the maiden, he ran off in despair: on relenting, she finds he is gone, and breaks out in these fine lines:-

"O, where's he gone that I love best,
And has left me here to sigh and moan?
O I will search the wide world over,
Till my true love I find again.

The seas shall dry, and the fishes fly,
And the rocks shall melt down wi' the sun;
The labouring man shall forget his labour,
The blackbird shall not sing, but mourn,
If ever I prove false to my love,
Till once I see if he return." '

Presumably Cunningham was speaking of the use of images in the final verse rather than suggesting any relationship between the melodies used. John Ord (Bothy Songs and Ballads, 1930, pp. 318-19, prints a long set, without music, which he calls I Will Set My Ship in Order; this seems to have been the usual title of Aberdeenshire versions, of which several appear in the Greig-Duncan collection.

Subject: Lyr Add: ARISE, ARISE- Version 2
From: GUEST,richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:54 AM

Malcolm-

I have a different version of the same lyrics in one of my notebooks: Piano & Voice Arrangement- Oliver Ditson Company- Collected by Cecil Sharp. It has ten verses. I have no other notes on it. Here what I have:

lyr. add: ARISE, ARISE- Version 2

Arise, arise, you drowsy maiden,
Arise, arise, it is almost day,
O come unto your bedroom window
And hear what your true love do say.

Begone, begone, you'll awake my father,
My mother too, she can quickly hear;
Go, tell your tales unto some other
And whisper softly in her ear.

I won't be gone, I love no other,
You are the girl I do adore;
It's I, my dear, who love you dearly,
The pains of love that have brought me here.

Now when the old man heard them talking,
He nimbly stepped right out of bed,
And put his head out of the window,
Poor Johnny dear was quickly fled.

Turn back, turn back, don't be called a rover;
Turn back, turn back, and sit by my side;
O wait until his passions over,
And I will surely be your bride.

O daughter, daughter, I will not confine you,
And mother too, she will quickly hear.
Go, tell your tales unto some other,
And whisper softly in her ear.

O father, father, pay down my fortune,
It's fity thousand bright pounds, you know,
And I will cross the briny ocean
Go where the stormy winds do blow.

O daughter, you may ease your own mind,
It's for your sweet sake that I say so;
If you cross the briny ocean
Without your fortune you must go.

O daughter, daughter, I'll confine you;
All in your private room alone;
And you shall live on bread and water,
Brought once a day and that at noon.

I do not want your bread and water,
Nor anything that you may have.
If I can't have my heart's desire,
Then single I go to my grave.

Note: Possible an adaptation by Sharp of an earlier collection.

Note Malcolm's submission; Text from Susie Clarke per Jack Barnard at Bridgwater, 6 April 1907.Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs, ed. Maud Karpeles; vol.I no.78, p.329. OUP 1974.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 12:32 PM

The text you quote is a drawing-room collation, and not a traditional version in its own right; Sharp commented "The words have not been altered, although I have made use of all the sets that I have collected." (One Hundred English Folksongs, Ditson, 1944)

The two final verses above came from Mrs. Lucy White (Hambridge, Somerst, 1905). I don't know where verses 5 and 6 are from (though in verse 6, line one, not is an accidental interpolation not given by Sharp); the rest, with the exception of the substitutions in the first verse of drowsy for pretty and O for And, is from Barnard, as is the tune.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 02:09 PM

Like other folksongs, the melodies may vary, only the meter remaining much the the same. Singers introduced changes to suit their voice or their preference and sometimes adopted the melody of another song altogether. I will email scans of the music of those that I have posted (if given), but it may not help with the relationships of those that have crossed to America.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 06:24 PM

Sharp has the English version of Drowsy Sleeper, "Arise, Arise" in key of G major in mixolydian mode. He has the time 3/2 instead of 3/4 which I believe is inaccurate. He also has the measure lines wrong (where the held beats are off beat) but I'm not sure why. But then I'm one of those people that tries to make music fit when it doesn't always. At least I've gotten out of the habit of making songs end on the tonic! I'd have a hard time playing with many old-time musicians (mostly soloists) because they leave out beats of measures.

I will check the English source next week to see if Masato's quote was in fact correct, putting the date back to the seventeenth century England.

Since we are on the East Virginia topic, I was wondering if anyone knows how and when the Drowsy Sleeper-Silver Dagger branch became "Katy Dear"?

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM

Richie,

I have no idea of the answer to your 'Katy Dear' query, but the first recording, under the title 'Katie Dear', was by the Callahan Brothers in 1934. Joe and Bill, from North Carolina, were born in 1910 and 1912 respectively. Bill Malone ['Country Music USA' p110] and the unidentified writer of the notes to 'Callahan Brothers' CD [Old Homestead 4031] indicate that there was plenty of singing around the Callahan household and that they learned the folk component of their repertoire [before being swept away with Jimmy Rodgers music in the late 20s], songs like 'Katie Dear' and 'Banks of the Ohio, from their mother. This would probably bring the date back to the late 19th century at least.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 07:59 PM

The gal came back to life and changed her name often- May, Molly, Nancy, Mary, Madam and nameless in Drowsy Sleeper variants in Randolph; Julia (Julie) and nameless in Silver Dagger; Mary in Cox' Silver Dagger.

A number of bluegrass singers used the Katy Dear variant. The earliest I have found is Tiny Dodson, 1938, Decca Country Series, but it could be a lot older. Also sung by Jerry Garcia, Ian and Sylvia and others.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 09:00 PM

Tiny Dodson's "Katy Dear" was the third.

"Katie Dear" recordings from Country Music Sources by Meade, Spottswood & Meade (Southern Folklife Center, University of North Carolina, 2001, p. 9) are:

(1) Katie Dear (14524-2) - Callahan Brothers (vcl duet w.gtrs) - 01/03/1934. NYC. (2) Katie Dear (BS 018680-1) - Blue Sky Boys (vcl duet w/mdln & gtr) - 01/25/1938. Charlotte, N.C. (3) Katy Dear (64077-) - Tiny Dodson's Circle-B Boys (vcl w/vln & gtrs) - 06/07/1938.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 09:14 PM

Thanks all for the info about Katie/Katy Dear. It looks like it was just a name that stuck and became a distinct variant. This is the version my bluegrass group knows.

Now I'm moving on trying to figure out how the fiddle tune "Robinson County" was use for Uncle Dave's "Country Ham and Red Gravy" and what the connection is to "New Five Cents," "Yellow/Yeller Gal", "Ruffled Drawers," and "Finger Ring". But this isn't a topic for this thread.

I'll post some info on the source of "Arise Arise/Awake Awake/Drowsy Sleeper" in England in the next few days.

This has been an informative tread with lots of great lyrics!

-Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 09:35 PM

I don't understand staff notation well enough to have an informed opinion as to whether Sharp ought to have noted in 3/2 or 3/4. Since he actually heard at first hand the music he was recording, however, I'd be disinclined (and would suggest that others should be also) to second-guess him without first-hand knowledge.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHO'S THAT KNOCKIN' ON MY WINDOW
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 10:05 PM

The Carter Family's "Who's That Knockin' On My Window" (recorded June 8, 1938; isssued May 1939) is a variant of "The Drowsey Sleeper." CLICK HERE for the recording from Honkingduck.

WHO'S THAT KNOCKIN' ON MY WINDOW

Who's that knockin' at my window,
Knocks so loud and won't come in?
'Tis your own true-hearted lover
Rise you up and let him in

Go 'way, go 'way, don't wake my mother
For love's a thing she can't endure
She's been the ruin of many a lover
She'll be the ruin of many more

I've come to whisper in your ear, love
Do you think it any harm?
I've come to wean you of your mother
Pray trust yourself in your darling's arms!

Go 'way go 'way, don't wake my father
For he is on his bed of rest
And on his breast he carries a weapon(*)
To kill the one that I love best

I wish I was some little sparrow
I'd circle like a turtle dove
I'd fly away to a lonely valley
And settle down in the land of love

(*): pronounced "wee-pon."

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM

Malcom-

After looking at the score of Arise Arise (Piano & Voice Arrangement- Oliver Ditson Company) by Sharp again, I can see what he was up to. All the other versions I have notated by Sharp use the first three notes as pick-up notes (A-rise A-) with "rise" falling on the accented beat as it should. However, with this version there would be an extra beat. By making this 3/2 Sharp has balanced the verse and made it come out in a tidy 8 measure group.

As a professional musician and arranger of folk music, I can speak with some authority- there is no easy way to notate this particular melody without changing it- and I'm glad he didn't.

I arrange emphasizing the beat, even if it means having multiple meters. That's just the way I do it. Sharp found a different way- so be it.

Masata-

That's a great find and lyric addition by the Carters!

-Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: WHO IS THAT AT MY FALSE WINDOW?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:37 AM

And many many more!

Lyr. Add: WHO IS THAT AT MY FALSE WINDOW?

O, who is that at my fale window
A making of such pitiful moan
O, who can it be but lovely Willie
Jest escaping from a storm.

O, Mary dear, go ask your mother
If my wedding bride that you shall be
If she says no, return and tell me
And I no more, will trouble thee.

O, Willie dear, go court some other
And whisper love all in her ear
My mother says, she cain't do without me
My mother says, she needs me here.

O, Mary dear, go ask your father
If my wedding bride that you shall be
If he says no, return an' tell me
An' I no more will trouble thee.

O, Willie dear, I dare not ask him
He sleeps, he sleeps and takes his rest
In his right hand he holds a weepon
For t' kill the man that I love best.

Then Willie picked up the silver dagger
An' he pierced it through his own white breast
A-dieu, a-dieu, a-dieu kind Mary
Your love Willie, has gone to rest.

Then, Mary picked up the silver dagger
An' she pierced it through her own white breast
A-dieu, a-dieu, a-dieu kind parents
My love Willie and I, have gone to rest.

When their parents came to know this
They strifed both night and day
Says, see what a cruel deed we've done
We've robbed the life of two precious jewels
Whose body now lies mouldering in their tomb.

Max Hunter Coll., Fred High of High, Arkansas, 1953. False Window With Real Audio. Similar to the Canadian Who Is At My Window Weeping (in Contemplator).

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:39 AM

Please go to PART TWO. Thread too long, will be troublesome to some.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 01:07 AM

PartTwo, thread 50807: East Virginia

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 02:27 PM

Related threads: 766, 1817, 2141, 7379, 14739, 17334, 22105, (35233), 50807, 52328, 56877. Any more??

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 09:21 PM

More murder and knives: threads 37286, 28033, 4273; Banks of the Ohio, etc.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: nutty
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:57 AM

I'm not sure how relevant this is to the previous discussion, but the Bodleian Library has this version of Drowsy Sleeper dated circa 1817.

DROWSY SLEEPER

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:24 AM

Iv'e always thought it was ..white linen, not lillies. Makes more sense to me. and her hair was a bright SUN color..

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:47 AM

The ca. 1817 version from the Bodleian is already posted in this thread, Nutty. See Dicho, 22Aug 02.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:46 PM

The "white lilies" seem to appear in some of the "Old Virginny" and some Appalachian collected versions, and continued in the Stanley-Carter songs. White linen, as Kendall says, makes more sense.

Subject: Lyr Add: AWAKE YOU DROWSY SLEEPER
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:56 PM

Just read this thread. Thanks everyone for not coming down harder on my head about the copyright! I know nothing of Oannes Music. Their note at the end seems to refer to a record album which had given no credit to me. Nor should they have, as the first verse (only one given) was NOT my family version.

What I had copyrighted (in the fifties and sixties, many trad songs were being copyrighted as having been WRITTEN by the singer on the album) were the Ritchie Family versions, with any changes, arrangements, uniqueness of melodies, etc. As I have often explained on Mudcat threads, my reason for copyrighting the Ritchie Family songs was as a protection/clarification of song sources, for scholars and researchers and just folks wanting to know where songs came from. Anyone recording a song with a Ritchie copyright who applies for a free license may have it, providing they give the requested credit line. I believe this source clarification is important.

"Old Virginny," and "Awake You Drowsy Sleeper," we had as two separate songs- no verses overlapped, and they had differing melodies.
"Old Virginny," I learned from my father, Balis W. Ritchie,around 1930,and he had known it from when he was young,in the 1870s. My first recording of it was in 1949 for the NY Historical Association, on a 78 rpm, with "Swing and Turn, Jubillee," on the other side. In 1952 it was included on my first (and Elektra's first)lp,a 10," for Elektra Records, with 13 other songs. In 1955 it became part of my story in SINGING FAMILY OF THE CUMBERLANDS,(Oxford U. Press- now it's with U.KY Press). My dad's melody I haven't heard anywhere else as a source. Joan Baez recorded the Ritchie version, although she did not know that when she recorded it for Vanguard. She told me she'd learned it from a friend who learned it from his mother!

"Awake You Drowsy Sleeper" I have recently discussed in another thread (about Ian & Sylvia).,The gist of it is that the tune on this one is mine (attempting to extract Uncle Jason's tune from his wavering voice and the differing turns and decorations in every verse). The family liked my tune and so that's how we've been singing it ever since.Ian and Sylvia learned it from me at Newport, I think. Here are our verses:

Awake, awake, you drowsy sleeper,
How can you lay and slumber so?
When your truelove is a-goin to leave you
Never to return any more?

How can you slumber on your pillow
When your truelove must stand and wait?
And must I go and wear the willow,
In sorrow mourning for your sake?

O Mollie dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride, my bride can be-
And then return and quickly tell me,
And I no more will trouble thee.

O no I cannot ask my mother,
Such stories of love she will not hear;
Go on your way and court some other-
I cannot trouble mother dear.

O Mollie dear, go ask your father
If you my bride, my bride can be-
And then return and quickly tell me,
And I no more will trouble thee.

O no I cannot ask my father,
He-s a-lying on his bed of rest,
And in his hands a silver dagger
To pierce the one that I love the best.

I wish I was in some lonely valley,
Where no one could ever hear-
My food would be of grief and sorrow,
My drink would be the briny tear.

Down in yon valley there grows a green yarrow,
I wish that yarrow was shot through my breast-
It would end my grief, it would end my sorrow,
And set my troubled mind at rest.

I'm sorry this is so long...but that's the way of it- songs grow one out of another. "Greenback Dollar" and the others I think came later, with the addition of instruments and rhythm, and verses got borrowed, recycled into newer ways of singing the songs(old folks always said that the A.P. Carter did a lot of rewriting. "Modern" music!

Subject: RE: Origins: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 24 - 03:23 AM

Thanks folks for what you said on East Virginia Blues. While saying all these words the tune the Carter Family yous is related to different songs that more folks know. The Greenback dollar that Hoyt Axton recorded in 1962 is not the same song.