Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme

Subject: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:45 AM

Can anyone say when this song dates from ? Is it an old lyric that someone set to Careless Love's melody ? Or is the melody original !

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

Thyme?

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:26 AM

Superb version by Carrie Mulligan in the recent remake of Far From the Madding Crowd

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:39 AM

Anonymous guest asked
> Thyme?

Surely one feature of this song is the homophone. It is both "time", which brings all things to an end, and "thyme", which is said to be a symbol of virginity.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:24 AM

btw
the MainlyNorfolk page

https://mainlynorfolk.info/joseph.taylor/songs/sprigofthyme.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:44 AM

"Oi think the answer loies in the soil", as an old BBC gardener used to say
Thyme symblises woman's strength of character - it has gradually lost it's folkloristic meaning.
This, From the Funk and Wagnall 'Standard dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend'
Jim Carroll
   
Thyme
Thyme is an herb of Venus and Mars and is a symbol of strength. It is loved by the bees and fairies especially in the north of England. In the Middle Ages, ladies gave their knights a sprig of thyme to increase their strength and courage in battle. On St. Agnes’ Eve if a young girl places a sprig of thyme in one shoe and a sprig of rosemary in the other, and one on either side of the bed, she will dream of love and the man she will marry. In ancient times thyme was strewn about the house to drive out vermin and provide a pleasant odor
Medicinally it was considered good for depression and to strengthen the head, brain, stomach, and lungs. Used in baths it cleared the skin and soothed the nervous system. It was a cure for insomnia, and the 17th century Parkinson recommended distilled water of thyme and vinegar of roses applied to the head to guard against “frensye” or nightmare.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:57 AM

I well remember this song when I frequented the Edinburgh Folk Club in the early sixties. I only know the version as sung by Foster and Allen (it's on Youtube) I called it Bunch of Thyme. It isn't the same tune as that sung by Carrie Mulligan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 10:09 AM

Isla Cameron always rang my bells - I quite liked her singing this too!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 12:30 PM

The 'Foster & Allen' was frequently sung in Scotland on my visits there in the 1960s....

I asked Pete Shepheard of the song's origins & he said as far as he knew, the then current version came from Sheena Wellington's grandmother

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 12:38 PM

Ha Jim B, we may have crossed paths!
This 'Thyme' song and 'Will Ye Go Lassie Go?' used to pierce my heart. I always wore an Edinburgh Uni thick scarf, and sobbed into it all evening. It was soaked by the time I left the premises!

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Michael
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

"Oi think the answer loies in the soil" frequently said by Kenneth Williams in the BBC comedy show " Round the Horne" of the 1960's.

Mike

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:53 PM

I think Ralph Wightman used to say that on Gardeners' Question Time on the radio a long time ago. Kenneth Williams was probably parodying it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 03:18 PM

Ralph Wightman was on Any Questions. Garderner's Question time was Fred Loads of Lancaster, Bill Sowerbutts of Ashton-under-Lyme, and Professor Alan Gemmell of Keele University. But I think you are right, it was Ralph Wightman that Kenneth Williams was parodying.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:32 PM

Christy sang it on "the Iron Behind The Velvet." Very nice it was too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:58 PM

David, I think Ralph Wightman was born in Piddletrenthide in Dorset, where he got his rich country accent. You may be right about his not being on Gardeners' Question Time, but I seem to have a rusty memory of him saying, "The answer lies in the soil" on the radio many years ago. I also remember Kenneth Williams of course, as 'Arthur Fallowfield', but I reckon that was a bit later.
Imagine if somebody asks you where you come from and you reply 'Piddle trenthide'. They'd think you were having them on!

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 03:17 AM

But then, the next village on from ours is called Fustyweed...

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 04:16 AM

Thanks for all the thread creep - Anyone want to answer the original query ??

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 04:50 AM

Sorry for creeping
Personally, I think it's difficult - virtually impossible, in fact, to date any particular traditional song unless it comes with specific historical references or a composer - an in-depth knowledge of the ort tradition dates back no earlier than the beginning of the twentieth century and published, particularly broadside, references are pretty meaningless
This song is made up of a number of motifs which are centuries old and can be traced to formal literature as well as other tradition songs
It's as likely to have evolved from other songs as to have landed in the present form
My opinion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:58 AM

Senoufou
             we may well have crossed paths in Edinburgh, although my sister Kath was a EUFC stalwart in the early 60s.
   The F&A version is VERY similar to the one current then- I didn't know Christy had recorded it, but he's a man of taste, and I'd venture he too picked it up in Scotland in the 60s.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:26 AM

This is the note of Isla Cameron's version Let No Man Steal your Thyme from the album she did with MacColl in 1958, Still I lLove Him.

"5 LET NO MAN STEAL YOUR THYME. One of the most famous of all English love-songs, and a celebrated piece of erotic symbology. Out of this song grew another, still more famous, called The Seeds of Love which was the first folk song Cecil Sharp ever noted (from the vicarage gardener of Hambridge, Somerset). Also known as The Sprig of Thyme, it has wandered across to Ireland, and it is an unpublished Irish version that Miss Cameron sings here, learned from a recording in the BBC's Recorded Programmes Library."

THe Irish version referred to was
SPRIG OF THYME
Singer: Patrick Green                                                                        Ballinalee, Co. Longford.
26.8.47

I don't know if it is of any significance, but the Singer, (in Irish, Padraig McGreine) was a noted expert in Irish Traveller life and taught their children
He died a few years ago aged over 100
Jim Carroll

He die

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:27 AM

Cynthia Gooding has a lovely version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 11:56 AM

Christy Moore recorded this on Whatever Tickles Your Fancy, and has the tune most people are familiar with today. In The Christy Moore Songbook he writes:

"I learned this from Muriel Graves from the Lake District in England in a folk club in 1967. Little did I think that by bringing it back to Ireland I was going to write a page in the annals of folk history and launch Foster and Allen to stardom"!

Sharp published The Sprig of Thyme (and The Seeds of Love) in 1916, in One Hundred English Folksongs with a different tune. A decade earlier George Gardiner had published a different version (in Marrowbones, 2007).

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 12:24 PM

I'm pretty sure that Isla Cameron's version was the first commercially available one - could be wrong!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 02:31 PM

The earliest versions I have obviously predate 1766 as they are both very different. Both are in Standard English and both printed by William Forrest of Edinburgh but one looks to be anglicised Scottish. The English one 'The Maid's Lament for the Loss of her Maidenhead' dated 1766 has only 7 stanzas whereas the other undated 'The New Lovers Garland' has 8 stanzas and a chorus with a 4-stanza answer. Later versions printed in England show a wide variety.

The song was definitely sung at the London pleasure gardens in the middle of the 18th century and that is its likely origin. The British Harmony, part the Second, being a choice Collection of Most of the New Favorite SONGS sung This and Last Season at both the Theatres, Vauxhall, Ranelagh, Sadler's Wells &C. Here it is titled 'The Encouraging Gardener' with 8 stanzas, again very different to the 2 Edinburgh printings.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 02:50 PM

Am not too bothered about origins iof songs- good that academics do it but I'd say the version current in Scotland in the 60s became very widespread in the folk clubs nationwide.
   Christy as a frequent folk club guest around then was always in the market for a good song whoever & wherever it came from.... a good policy

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 09:22 PM

"Christy sang it on 'The Iron Behind The Velvet'. Very nice it was too."

No he didn't - I got the wrong album. It was on "Whatever Tickles Your Fancy." Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:27 AM

"The song was definitely sung at the London pleasure gardens in the middle of the 18th century and that is its likely origin"
Why?
The theme is timeless, as are those the motifs of all folk songs
Your two-way suggestion for the origin of folk songs seems to have gone by the board Steve and we are back to the folk never having produced anything for themselves
What an uncreative, unimaginative people the English seem to have been!

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:53 AM

"Am not too bothered about origins iof songs- good that academics do"
Jim
Far from being an academic exercise, some singers find that a knowledge of where the song comes from and who is likely to have sung it helps to put it in context and is an aid to singing it - (the singers identification with the song)
Not important to everybody, but certainly not exclusive to academics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:56 AM

The Sprig of Thyme, The Seeds of Love, Maiden’s Lament, Garners Gay, Let No Man Steal Your Thyme or Rue is a traditional British and Irish folk ballad that uses botanical and other symbolism to warn young people of the dangers in taking false lovers. The song was first documented in 1689 and the many variants go by a large number of titles.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sprig_of_Thyme#cite_ref-Let_No_Man_Steal_Your_Thyme_1-0

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:19 AM

Jim, I think you're spot on. When I sing I like to feel a certain amount of empathy with the narrator, and a feeling of identification with the song's context, which includes some knowledge of its provenance. For me, it's a practical, not an academic, exercise.

I remember Christy Moore once saying pretty much the same thing in an interview - I think he referred to it as 'getting right inside the song' or something similar.

Gordon

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:11 AM

"and a feeling of identification with the song's context"
Thanks for that Gordon
Virtually every one of the older singers we interviewed on this "saw" their songs as moving pictures - Walter Pardon, the Irish singers and the Travellers
If there was no described location they provided one for themselves - Mikeen McCarthy used to say of one character in a song, "we used to travel past that feller's cottage regularly"
Walter used to picture his 'Pretty Ploughboy' "ploughing in that field" (opposite his house).
Even blind-from-birth Traveller, Mary Delaney used to describe her characters' clothes
This approach elevates songs to more than just a collection of words.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:53 AM

Yes, and it elevates a traditional song above the concept of 'genre'. By that I mean that while we have song genres - pop, rock, jazz, lieder, etc - they are collections of words set to a tune.

A traditional song, on the other hand, is a microcosm of, or perhaps, an aspect of, a way of life - a tradition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:54 AM

That's why I used to sob piteously into my University scarf when listening to these songs at the Edinburgh Uni Folk Club. They weren't just a collection of words but an expression of poignant situations and emotions. I too used actually to picture the characters and feel for them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:45 PM

... and that's why we love these songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:33 PM

Yes I accept it is good to get 'right inside a song'but to do justice to any 'traditional'song, it is surely not necessary to know the details of its ancient origins?

Most singers would choose a song after a reaction on an emotional level rather than anything else- that's surely not the way to go -

I'd always take the first course, but that's personal really. My quotation marks around traditional above only repeat my reluctance to talk about 'genres' or categories of song.

I do think that to describe all pop, rock, jazz,lieder etc as 'collections of words with a tune' is rather strange, and I hope that Gordon intended no denigration of non-traditional' material? You're on dangerous ground if you did!

ps please don't let us get into a definitions swamp!

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:10 PM

"The song was definitely sung at the London pleasure gardens in the middle of the 18th century and that is its likely origin"
Why?

Perhaps we should both append all postings with (IMHO)

I base that 'likely origin' opinion on many years studying the output of the pleasure gardens and London theatres of which this piece is absolutely typical, along with other sources and traditional song. What do you base yours on, Jim?

Iains, the 1689 date is asserted for the 'Seeds of Love' and comes from an assertion of one person with absolutely no proof whatsoever.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:31 PM

Steve Gardham. You may well be correct. The only counter argument I would offer is that so many variants are found in so many places that this fact in its self would argue a degree of antiquity, simply to give an adequate timeframe for the variants to travel and evolve. Also any source with wiki as a prefix requires rigorous questioning.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:28 PM

"Perhaps we should both append all postings with (IMHO)"
Perhaps we should just admit that nobody has a clue and leave it there
If the foplk were able to make songs they have asmuch claim to any folk songs as any hack writer
If you don't believe they could you should say so and be done with it
I don't base my view on anything but the fact that ordinary working people were making songs from the time of the Venerable Bede and were still doing so up to and beyond the middle of the twentieth century
Nonbody even knows who "probably" made our folk songs and all the paper-chases in the world won't change that one iots until known authors are established beyond any doubt
"it is surely not necessary to know the details of its ancient origins?"
Speak for yourself Jim
If I started telling you what is important and what is not, you'd be soon up on your "folk police" cair.
Why should I not feel the same?
For singers like Walter Pardon, dates were an important thing and he displayed that importance each time he talked about them - nobody would edescribe him as an "academic"
Doesn't come more authoritative than that for me
"ps please don't let us get into a definitions swamp!
ps - please doint tell me what I can discuss and what I can't
If we can't discuss the definition of folk song on a forum that styles itself "a community of musicians, historians and enthusiasts that collect and discuss traditional folk and blues songs, folklore, lyrics, instruments, music, kid stuff and more where the hell can we discuss it ?
Folk police indeed!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 10:45 AM

Nobody's telling you anything, Jim, trying to is pointless- I'm just aware of the kind of 'definitions' morass you seem to enjoy & I don't want to be part of that- maybe others will oblige you?
Apart from anything else, such a diversion is irrelevant to the subject, so I suggest it's time to return to that.
You have a knack of turning a polite discussion into an argument- can we agree it's a very old song, and worth singing whatever its history?
All I said is that I react to a song on an emotional level, not because of its provenance- I don't care if it was written this morning
even if chapter and verse is essential to your enjoyment.
Can you understand that?

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:37 AM

"Nobody's telling you anything,"
"ps please don't let us get into a definitions swamp!"
Doesn't sound like that to me Jim
In fairness, you are not the first, 'definitions' and MacColl have long been no-go areas, thanks to people who don't wish to discuss these topics intelligently
I don't "enjoy" any sort of morass - I respect folk song enough to believe that its needs to be discussed fully without people creating walls around aspects they don't approve of or don't wish to think about
If you believe expressing controversial views is "turning a polite discussion into an argument" then we live in different worlds - debating serious subjects should never be carried out by 'nodding dogs'
It has become a recurring habit on this forum to debate something until you find yourself at a loss then cry "thread drift" or "irrelevant to the subject"
I have put a fair amount of information up about this subject already - it wasn't me who put up claims of "probabilities" - I responded to it.
What makes Steve's claim any less controversial than mine?
My objection was 100% on topic when I challenged his view about this song probably originating from the Pleasure Gardens - where is the thread drift in that?
" I react to a song on an emotional level"
And others choose more, which includes provenance
Do you object to those who wish to bringing in their point of view because it doesn't coincide with yours?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:57 PM

And having listened to Carrie Mulligan's version again, I say that it's probably one of the best versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:50 PM

Thanks Bonzo for a return to the subject!

Now MacColl has (inevitably!!) been dragged into Mr Carroll's diatribe, I'd like to leave him to argue without me-

I haven't time nor the inclination to deal with anyone unable to accept that other people may have valid opinions too..... bit like MacColl, come to think of it- ok Jim, carry on regardless

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:23 PM

"Now MacColl has (inevitably!!) been dragged into Mr Carroll's diatribe, "
Hardy surprising Jim with people like yourself who haven't got the decency at accept his contribution to folk song and need to reg him out of his grave and give him a kicking to make up fro their own inadequacy
Peggy once lambasted people in an article in the Living for attacking a dead man who was no longer around to answer for himself - fell on deaf ears as far as you are concerned - obviously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:06 AM

Actually, the OP asked about the origin of the song. We got into why knowing the origin isn't particularly important. To some of us, knowing is important (or simply interesting), whilst to others it's not.

However, I'm very happy to hear Bonzo's opinion on his favourite version as well, one I'm not familiar with.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:02 AM

The reason for my query is not the song as such , but the commonly accepted tune , and its similarity to W C Handy's 'Careless Love'

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:50 AM

"W C Handy's 'Careless Love'"
Handy's appears to be a blues version of the song - quite common, of course
The Unfortunate Rake - House of the Rising Sun - Streets of Laredo genre is probably the most widespread of a song taking dozens of identities
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Chris Amos
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:20 PM

Here is the entry in the Roud Index

Here

Chris.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM

Jim, people have different opinions about all sorts of things. but that seems to be a concept which is beyond you- it must be great to know everything- how did you do it?
Please answer without reference to Ewan MacColl or Peggy Seeger.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:16 PM

Please answer without reference to Ewan MacColl or Peggy Seeger."Therer you go telling me what I can and can't say again Jim
And you describe MacColl as a domineering bully!!
I know what I know - not everything, but obviously more than you, otherwise, why should you make such a stupid statement - through putting the time in and taking an interest in the subject
I never created no-go (academic) barriers from my research
I discovered quite early that, if I had any confusion about what constituted folkk-song, I only hd to ask people like Walter otr Mikeen or Mary DElaney - they didn't aal use the same vocabulary, but they could sort out one type of music from another just by listening to it.
Failing that, I could pull down a book off our shelves and read what those who came before us thought about it.
Does it not strike you ludicrous to accuse someone you never knew (MacColl) of being a bully and an all round unpleasant individual while at the same time taking every opportunity to malign and smear him thirty years after his death
If MacColl had acted in one fraction of the vicious way his detractors (you included) do he would have desrved all the abuse he still gets
As it happens, he didn't, but you and yours do
Work out for yourself who the unpleasant bully is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 03:16 PM

Mr Carroll- Not sure where you get all this fiction!!.
I cerainly never called MacColl a domineering bully or any of this other stuff- somebody must have rattled your cage, but I'm NOT GUILTY!! you're cracking up, I think.
Sit in a comfy chair and have a nice cup of tea & calm down

I never mentioned MacColl at all till you did!! and I didn't want to inflict another pointless arguments about the man on other readers- hence my suggestion of getting back to the subject of the thread.

I have reservations about the man, although I admire his song output as well as his collecting work, again with some rservations, but I don't suppose that would be good enough for you
.
Can we leave it at that- I see the music from a totally different point of view than you- can't you just accept that?   don't really need to receive any more unfounded accusations and insults from the likes of you.

If you want to apologise, I'll accept it, but if you want to continue arguing about this, please do it on your own- others might like to get back to the subject.