BS: UK: Police State

Subject: BS: UK: Police State
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:17 PM

This article from The Grauniad caught my eye: domestic extremists database.

Apparently peaceful protesters or attendees at some political meetings are now being tracked on a database as they have been designated 'domestic extremists'.

So the police state is now with us. What have we gained and what have we lost?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:22 PM

Holy Crap..

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:49 PM

Bit unnerving that car number plate recognition thing.

So what's to stop them going into Facebook and MySpace groups like Folk Against Fascism, to collect individual details for their database? Very worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:50 PM

Well the police and security services have been taking pics of us since back in the late 60s/early 70s to my knowledge, maybe before? (I defer to any original CND marchers or other protesters.) So they were clearly keeping surveillance data back then. It's true it's a much bigger danger now because the technology is scarily efficient and the number of us "dangerous subjects" is now presumably much larger.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 03:54 PM

If the Stasi had only had the technology that their successors here have, the Berlin Wall would still be standing. Or maybe they wouldn't even have needed to build a physical Wall in the first place, the Virtual Wall would have done the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 04:16 PM

It's been the norm in North America since--that I am SURE of--the mid-1960s. Funny, because a few years back I bitched on a thread about those 'green' cameras all over everywhere because I find that intrusive. The general answer back was "If you have nothing to hide, why worry?" This kinda shit becomes the result.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

PS,

Orwell. "1984". And here we all are.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

There are more CCTV cameras per person in Britain than ANYWHERE ! But when a crime is filmed , the quality is so bad that they are useless from the point of view of identification IF the court even accepts the Vid as evidence !
One has to wonder exactly what the point is !

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:27 PM

Well, the "Police State" certainly hasn't reached Henley-on- Thames as yet !! This is largely because there are are no actual police in the town.....or only 2 or 3,and they go home at tea-time,so you can 'phone up all day long ,reporting crimes and incidents,as I personally often do,and you can guarantee that nothing will ever be done about it ! I even dialled 999 on Regatta Saturday night back in July, and was told that Thames Valley Police were "busy" ,and that my call was "in a queue " !!! So anyone frightened of "1984" and "Police States" would be well advised to move here for their peace of mind......and yes, you can park on double yellow lines all day long if you wish,and also on pedestrian crossing "zig-zag" lines,secure in the knowledge that A) Henley has NO traffic wardens and B) the "PCSOs" have no actual powers at all !! ( and there are no Coppers either !! ).   Police State ?? You must be fucking joking !!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: gnu
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

Ya can never be too careful.... can ya?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:47 PM

I'm sure Keith will be delighted.

I am reminded of the time that my stepson (who had a first in philosophy) applied to the Home Office for a job, and didn't get even an interview. He rang his father who just said "Sorry Wom" and talked to his mother who just laughed. His father was a 60s member of the Anarchist Association and his mother learned guitar to play "We shall Overcome" marching with the Reverend Bruce Kent on the Aldermaston marches.

AFAIK he still can't get a US visa, although his sister can - but she ran a large chunk of Intel's European operation.

Plus ca change...

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 07:25 PM

But bubblyrat..............you know they are just down the road with speed cameras or racing around getting chips for tea etc.

What will "they" do with the information? It seems to me that the police no longer answer to anybody we can talk to. So who is calling the shots? Who is allowing the police to become the force they have? Whitehall? Big names in the civil (dis)service? The "Rich and powerful club"?

Strikes me there is litle difference between any political ideal that I can think of or name, since not one of them repeall any act that gives the police extra powers. They may bleat about it in opposition but they carry it on just the same, adding to the police state we have become. This started with the "Criminal justice act 1988" (A tory bill if I remember rightly) carried on and made worse by this bunch. I got photgraphed on demo's in the late 60's and early 70's. But the way the police worked then was different. Strikes me (no pun intended)that policing changed when they were let loose on the miners by Thatcher (spit) and co.

Of course you might say if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear but one day in the future they might come for your son or daughter. They might check your grandchild's DNA against their databases.Who knows what excuse they'll need? (Who is going to decide right or wrong?)Racial purity, loyalty to the "party", some disability, some disease? Social group, folkie, long haired hippie?

Of course things like that wouldn't happen here, would they? (Try Germany, Russia,Cambodia to name just a few)

One of the worst parts is that there are many decent police officers in the force for the right reasons but they will never have the courage to disobey and the "I was only following orders" statment has been used as the excuse throughout history.

Whether you vote right, left or down the middle. Whether you are light, dark, white, black or whatever if "They" decide......

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:48 AM

Instead of smearing my name here, why not return to the immigration thread and explain why you called me "liar" in your last two posts, when I was the one telling the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 03:01 AM

That last directed at Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 03:05 AM

Any of the objectors up above have any suggestions as to how the police and security services should gather intelligence of the activities of extremists who plan to do the rest of the population harm?

If you haven't any, then vote for those who in this day and age will cancell the funding, then you can sit back and wait for blows to land then react to them from a position of complete and utter ignorance, but whatever you do, don't blame either the police or the security forces for having done nothing to protect you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:09 AM

"Any of the objectors up above have any suggestions as to how the police and security services should gather intelligence of the activities of extremists who plan to do the rest of the population harm?"
Right on cue Terribus (right being the operative word)!
The police and security authorities are there to uphold the law - not to decide in advance who the criminals are (or might be) - we have courts for that.
The police in particular have proved themselves in the past, to be more than happy to deny the rest of us our lawful rights - the miners strike more than proved that. There, they put themselves totally at the disposal of one of the most repressive national leaders in modern history - Margaret Thatcher, a prime minister who supported, openly admired and counted as a friend one of history's monsters, Augusto Pinochet, mass murderer and torturer.
Putting the powers of surveillence of the rest of us into the hands of such a force is not only detrimental to our own well-being, but also is a pretty positive step along the road of he extremism and repression - in other words, it becomes as extreme and repressive as the terrorists we are supposed to be fighting.
Since when have legally held political demonstrations and protests been subversive and subject to surveillence, or are you suggesting that our law-makers have it wrong and the police should decide what is or is not permissable?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:19 AM

There always been stuff going on 'behind' our backs. Back in the 70's we were member of CND and attended all the marches etc. Everytime we picked up our phone just before we started dialing there were three fast 'clicks'. A mate who was a telephone engineer said this was the connection to another system, basically someone was listening in.

Recently my niece who is a forensic's officer was seconded to London from her home town for eight weeks. She could not take her mobile, laptop or any other such device, she was housed in a flat in london and had no contact with her family, not even her husband who is a forensic pathologist, for the duration of the 'job'. Her immediate family were subject to 'checks' and so were we, we only found out weeks after the job was finished and her mom let it slip at a family party !!!

I must be OK as I'm still here working away !!! and not locked up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:47 AM

"The police and security authorities are there to uphold the law - not to decide in advance who the criminals are (or might be) - we have courts for that."


Exactly! However, there are some laws which have been passed and which are being proposed that severely limit our personal freedom. Anyone interested in how our basic freedoms are being taken away by this and previous governments, should read A C Grayling's latest book, Liberty in the Age of Terror: A Defence of Civil Society and Enlightenment Values. He cites in detail the argument against such insidious infringements of personal liberty as identity cards and outlines the potential abuses of this and other measures that are supposed to 'protect' us but, in fact, do nothing of the sort. He also lists that various acts that have now become law and how these also infringe on our liberty. It's a very scary scenario indeed for anyone who does not want to live in what is rapidly becoming akin to a totalitarian state.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 06:08 AM

None seems to have yet asked the question - How many people have been caught using this information?

These would be the same police who complain about too much paperwork, not enough coppers on the beat, not enough money etc.

Plenty of time for this and form 696 it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 06:31 AM

Dave, there's a difference in attitude in the police force between those who set the agendas and those who have to implement them. The complaints about paperwork, lack of resources, etc. generally come from the 'bobby on the beat' who is at the sharp end of the red tape imposed upon them. Recent changes in structure, pension arrangements and so forth have made the police force a much less attractive career proposition these days.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM

Does red tape have a sharp end?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 10:13 AM

Thanks folks - I note the question I asked went unanswered - but then I never expected that it would.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 11:16 AM

"Thanks folks - I note the question I asked went unanswered - but then I never expected that it would. "

I'm not sure whether you did or didn't expect a reply, but the reason no-one has could be that it is simply a stupid question. To start with, you make the assumption that there is a justification for having a database of largely innocent people going about their lawful business. Explain how you justify that assumption. Nor do I accept your premise that there is a threat that merits the means used and proposed in future legislation. "Terror" and "extremists" are words that are being peddled as excuses for introducing the most draconian measures ever to curb the basic freedom of the individual. These are more stringent than any seen before in the UK, even during the Irish troubles and World War 2. Are you saying that we are in more danger now than we were then? Or have you just lapped up, without question, the drivel that the government has been pushing out? I suggest you read the book I recommended above, then come back and put forward a cohesive argument. But, of course, I don't expect that you will.

The thing that is doing the population of this country the most harm is the exponential erosion of our basic freedoms - something that terrorists cannot achieve alone, but which the government's reaction to the perceived threat has. If I were a terrorist, I'd say that I was achieving my aims.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 11:26 AM

any suggestions as to how the police and security services should gather intelligence of the activities of extremists who plan to do the rest of the population harm

Stop wasting their time on people who don't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Stu
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

"Thanks folks - I note the question I asked went unanswered - but then I never expected that it would."

So it wasn't a rhetorical question then?

As you know Tezza this is designed to suppress free and fair protest, NOT keeps tabs on potential terrorists (although we all know how that goes - one officer needs a piss, innocent man dies). This is keeping records on innocent protesters who pose no threat to anyone.

The problem is that the police are becoming more remote from the people they are supposed to serve. They beat up and abuse people legitimate protests, kill people without recourse or punishment even when filmed doing so and now they are spying on us if we utter a peep not in line with whatever Orwellian criteria the faceless poultroons in charge decide constitutes some imaginary 'threat'.

Bollocks to the lot of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

Well I can't ever remember being treated badly by the police. They have always been respectful to me and I have been respectful to them.

Maybe those who are worried have something to hide.

They have a job to do, and a lot of the time they are having to deal with voilent, drunken mobs and are risking their lives to get this scum under control.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 11:59 AM

You beat me to it, Villan.
In 62 years I've never encountered anything but politeness and respect from police officers. But then, I'm always polite and respectful in my dealings with them.
Do As You Would Be Done By - it's a good policy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:02 PM

"In 62 years I've never encountered anything but politeness and respect from police officers"

Excellent news - that's how I brought one of them up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM

Average bobbies on the beat will of course be 'nice' to Mr. & Mrs. 'Average' Homebase. But if your hair is 'too long', you happen to be out 'too late', or you look a bit 'funny' in any way, be prepared to be harassed by enthusiastic young coppers seeking a conviction for something mildly illegal that they think 'funny looking' people will no doubt be doing.

Even if you are innocently bird-watching, star-gazing, or even so much as meditating in a beauty spot after hours. Yes, these tireless campaigners for the "common good", are always looking for such anti-social deviant bahaviour to chalk up on their ickle chalk-board at work.

Not all of them, for sure, some coppers *are* thoroughly alright chaps with their feet in the real world. And thank Christ we ain't no-where as bad as the US yet, but the young 'uns can be a diabolical pain in the arse to quite harmless 'alt-community' folks taking a perfectly innocent stroll. And they do really need to get a life and go chasing *real* criminals instead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Stu
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:14 PM

"Well I can't ever remember being treated badly by the police. They have always been respectful to me and I have been respectful to them."

When I needed help they were frequently condescending, often quite aloof and sometimes simply not interested. Some individual officers were brilliant; they really cared and did what they could but as an organisation it was like speaking to a brick wall.

If people are discouraged from legitimate protests because they have come under surveillance by a force hostile to their rights as citizens then this country is yet another step closer to being truly f*cked.

"a lot of the time they are having to deal with voilent, drunken mobs and are risking their lives to get this scum under control."

This is very true.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: folk1e
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:24 PM

Well timed Villan

This week a a man was jailed for driving at over 100mph through built up areas in his car. His excuse was that he needed to give a birthday card to a relative, and had two family members in his car at the time!
So what? I hear you ask?
Well there are two unusual aspects to this

1 He was involved in a fatality
2 He was a serving officer in the police force and driving his patroll car at the time!

I predict an interesting year in jail for him!
Cynic that I am, I wonder if he would have been caught if he had not mowed down a pedestrian!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:48 PM

I think the problem itself is *systemic* rather than down to individuals, who of course as individuals, are just like us lot.

Somehow the system has become "divisive" and antagonistic between State created bodies, and the People who those bodies are supposed to *support not control*.

Sugarfoot has covered this in more specific terms, but it is a deeply concerning situation with all the technology involved now, when the machine man created as an aid to supporting life, begins to dominate and oppress man's life.

Of course the 'fringes' always feel the pinch or snip or indeed euthenasia first, but that only means Mr. & Mrs. Homebase are waiting next in line....

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Stu
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:03 PM

Spot on CS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:12 PM

"But if your hair is 'too long', you happen to be out 'too late', or you look a bit 'funny' in any way, be prepared to be harassed by enthusiastic young coppers "

Bloody hell, if that was the case, my lad would arrest me every time he came over to see me or met me in the street! LOL!!!!

(I could tell you some stories about how coppers behave off duty!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:18 PM

I have been treated badly by the police. I wasn't protesting or doing anything at the time and they were rude and vindictive.

And it has happened more than once.

Of course I try and uphold what I believe to be my rights. And so far I have been correct and they have been wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM

There is also sometimes a quite large change in the mentality of the single officer going about normal daily duties and the one in a group moderating a crowd of civilians in a demonstration or at a social event.

They quite rightly have to worry about mob mentality but don't see the same potential in themselves. Or if they do, it is only retrospectively. Police men and women are after all human beings. They are just as likely to behave instinctively in any "us against them" situation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:22 PM

>>I predict an interesting year in jail for him!
<<

Quite right too. I am not defending anybody who does that sort of thing. There is always one bad apple in a barrel. That person does not typify the police though.

Stop slagging the police and start condeming the minority that are causing this in the first place. If you condone those sort of scumbags, then I have no time for you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM

"Dave, there's a difference in attitude in the police force between those who set the agendas and those who have to implement them. The complaints about paperwork, lack of resources, etc. generally come from the 'bobby on the beat' who is at the sharp end of the red tape imposed upon them."

Not the way I hear it it isn't. They say the paperwork is caused by the government and chief officers say it as often as "the bobby on the beat"
or the "bobby in a car" as they are nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:27 PM

Well I tell you what, I wouldn't want their job, when you see what they have to deal with in city centres and villages when all the drunken yobbos spill out on the pavement when the pubs shut.
Foul abusive language, fights, smashing and damaging properties.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:39 PM

Leveller, I know too many genuinely innocent chaps in their 20's/30's who have been harassed quite provocatively by ignorant and ambitious young coppers, for it not to be something that does not regularly happen - around here anyway. Late hours combined with an 'alternative' appearance seems to be an inevitable trigger. They *always* assume that star-gazers or bird-watchers are thieves and drug-fiends. And they are not pleasantly mannered about it either. Dread to think what it must be like for Blacks in the city.

I understand your son is a part of the force, and it is an essential and intrinsic part of a democratic society. But I'm sure you raised him to maintain a tolerant attitude to broader society and treat 'people' as 'people' not stereotypical figures of suspicion. But when some guys get into the system, I think that any such ideals can become err less important, and any pre-existing native prejudices to 'difference' can become dangerously inflated and compounded. I think Tam's point too, is a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 04:49 PM

Sadly, gone are the days when the Police were there to serve the public, or act on behalf of the Public in Britain. When it's revealed that the then Prime Minister (efectively Head of State) was being monitored by MI5 without his knowledge, then all pretence of democracy is blown out of the water. Our land always was, and will be, at the behest of the great and powerful, and that does not include the 99.9999% of the voters in this country I'm afraid.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: romanyman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 04:59 PM

If you want to see police reactions, borrow a trnsit van or pick up truck, hook a caravan on the back and drive, or for real action, pull up in a layby or at the side of the road and see what happens, oh the joy of life on the road, what with stopping laws, cameras tracking your every move, oh and make sure you have a big box or something in the back, the go to henly on thames , that will bring the police in bubbly rat.
Oh and dont complain cos they will lock you up, oh yes they definately will and they will take your truck and trailer, hee hee i love being degraded daily.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:17 PM

On the other hand, RM, I frequently see convoys of transits towing large caravans with not a number plate in sight, and absolutely zero reaction from our brave defenders.

But in principle you are right, you are targeted mostly not for what you have done but for what you are assumed to have done.

When I was doing sound regularly for the Gilt Trip I was very often stopped - long haired git in a Skoda estate with sound equipment in - and always checked for drink or drugs. For some reason they never put the Skoda on a weighbridge, which would probably have scared the pants off them!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: romanyman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:31 PM

hee hee gotta laugh tho aint ya, i love it, nah i dont, im f*****g sick of it.
only today, yes a real daily report, there i was just pullin into the stables with a van full of horse grub, and the "protectors" decided to search the van, oh such fun, till after the last few bales of hay came out, there was a not too amused badger, and bess, who decided to see these interlopers out of their van, brown smelly stuff hitting fan comes to mind, they was going to do me under the dangerous dogs act, ha, badger? bess? so i asked politely ifn they was goin to put the hay and horse grub back in the van, guess what.................................
they told me to go forth and muliply. dont ya love em

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM

It is true that the majority of police officers see the very worst of human behaviour in the worst of situations.And the frustration of catching some toe rag in a stolen car again and again and again only to see them get away with it again and again and again is mind boggling. But this is a different kind of policing

I've known many officers in a professional basis and some on a personal basis, though it has to be said that most officers end up prefering those on the "job". Amongst those I have known there have been racists, bullies and even one that dealt the best grass in the area. (No I wasn't a customer) There have also been kind, helpful, family orientated people and hard working dedicated, brave men and women.

"(I could tell you some stories about how coppers behave off duty!)" So could I, and sometimes they are lucky they are on the job or else they'd be in big trouble. Of course they party hard.

But in the end, there will be very few of them that disobey. I've known how easy it is to get roads cleared of area cars so certain officers can go home when blindingly over the limit. The police are as susceptible to corruption as any one else. Certain forces have been found to be "institutionaly racist". But in the end by "criminalising" large portions of the population "they" are working towards massive control of the biggest imaginable scale. The number of over 40's receiving first conviction is up by 40%. Why? Have they suddenly all become criminally inclined? No, it's target setting and the police obey their orders. Not one has yet come out and said, "I'm not deliberately picking on middle aged or older members of the public just to hit some target".You can say they must all be law breakers, such as those whose wheelie bin is overflowing etc. There are so many rules invented to hold us captive, so many paragraphs, so many sub-sections. Of course, the human dna database gets larger and larger. Writing this is probably risky, reading this is probably the same, sitting at home and discussing it with a group of friends is definately risky, not now perhaps but sometime in the future since loads of this stuff if monitored.

A police officer can stop and search you just on a whim.........just because...... and what can you do about it?

All of these systems work on information gathering and informants and you will be guilty by association.

Of course nobody wants to even think that the child they have nurtured, cared for and helped develop into a kind, caring respectable and responsible adult would in any way turn into the type of officer that does anything morally reprehensible in the same way as we wouldn't like our children to turn into criminals, but these things can happen.The police have ultimate power, and ultimate power corrupts.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:28 AM

"I'm not sure whether you did or didn't expect a reply, but the reason no-one has could be that it is simply a stupid question."

Not simply a stupid question at all leveler – How do you gather information and obtain intelligence about those who would do you harm. From what both you and MGOH say, you could only ever be reactive and start after they have struck.

"you make the assumption that there is a justification for having a database of largely innocent people going about their lawful business."

Ever heard of the DVLA Leveler?? What is that if it isn't an enormous database of largely innocent people going about their lawful business, but I can find no great argument against it so it's existence can be easily justified.

There again I walked around with an ID Card for years and didn't find that any hardship either. The degree of objection I suppose all depends upon exactly what it is you have to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: Stu
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

"Ever heard of the DVLA Leveler?? What is that if it isn't an enormous database of largely innocent people going about their lawful business, but I can find no great argument against it so it's existence can be easily justified."

The DVLA database is primarily for tracking licensed vehicles - you're not seriously suggesting we all need to be licensed to walk around our own country?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM

Not in the least Sugarfoot but I gave the DVLA as an example of a database that is and has been in existence for donkey's year without it impacting on anyone's "civil liberties" or "personal freedom". But dig out an application form and take a look at the extent of required personal information on it.

A simple cross-check between driving licences and vehicle registrations and the results could potentially earn the Government millions in fines and back tax.

As for needing to be licensed to walk around ones own country - what else is a National Insurance Card. In most European countries you have to have some form of ID Card, I know for certain that in the Scandinavian countries you have a personnummer or birth number without which it is extremely difficult to get a job, any form of identification, medical treatment, bank account, etc, etc.

Nothing wrong with any of that and none of which infringes any basic human right or freedom - True??

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:02 PM

"Ever heard of the DVLA Leveler??"

No comparison between that and ID cards, which would be the greatest infrigement of personal freedom ever introduced into the UK - and that is why every organisation concerned with personal liberty is opposed to it. Like I said, read the book I suggested - I have neither the time nor the inclination to enlighten you, especially as you don't even have the courtesy to spell my name correctly.

Crow Sister, I don't disagree with you – I just find it amusing that an anti-establishment person like me can have a police officer for a son.

I do think, however, that the attitude of the police tends to reflect the views of society as a whole and, of course, you get good and bad coppers. What you should also bear in mind is that a 'grumpy' police man or woman may have worked a 16 hour double shift and during that time might have had to face a loony with a shotgun, tell a mother her teenage son has been killed in a car crash and been smacked in the face by a drunk – plus the usual everyday pressures that all of us have to put up with. No excuse for rudeness or worse, I agree, but hey, they're only human (most of them).

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Police State
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:51 PM

I take it that - A C Grayling's latest book, Liberty in the Age of Terror: A Defence of Civil Society and Enlightenment Values - must be a pretty short book if you expect me to have gone out bought it and read it all within a 24 hour period.

DVLA - application requires cross reference to UK Passport Office - can't get a better ID Card than a Passport, Leveller - That particular ID Card lets you travel all over the world - Does anybody who holds a Passport believe that it infringes their civil liberties - if they do then they should, purely out of personal conviction return them - any takers, or do you still want your holidays abroad??

My apologies for mis-spelling your name an automatic spell-checker converted it from "Leveller" to "Leveler", didn't realise you were so sensitive about it - I must adopt the same tack with the likes of Jim Carroll, who likewise does not "even have the courtesy to spell my name correctly".