BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 03:55 AM

At last Michel Barnier gets something right:
From Jim's link:
Mr Barnier refused to describe the UK position as “evolved”, insisting the controversial Chequers document clashes with the wishes of the remaining 27 EU leaders.

I believe most of those who voted leave would say it also clashes with their wishes.
We have some common ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM

the £39bn we’ve already agreed to pay,

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. If there is no agreement,.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM

BBC 8 hours ago,
"the nugget of good news: Big strides have been made on security co-operation after Brexit."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM

"We have some common ground!"
I doubt it
Barnier has rightly refused to agree to anything that would damage the security of the members of the EU - top of the list is Ireland which stands to lose everything that has been gained by the Peace Process

Britain ***** up a newly liberated Ireland by imposing a sectarian partitioned State
Now they are non only continuing to threatened the peace of the Republic, but they are flying in the face of the interests of the people of the Six Counties they created
All because Miss Little England loves Union Jack
He really isn't worth it missus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:16 AM

Britain ***** up a newly liberated Ireland by imposing a sectarian partitioned State

Britain did not want the partition. It could only impose a united Ireland at gunpoint, but the British Army refused to fight the Unionists, and the Irish Army couldn't.

Britain did not impose it. It was forced on us.
Why can't you persuade the Northerners to join you now? We still don't want them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:51 AM

Something else to prepare for - the costs of any changes to VAT/Indirect Taxes as a result of no longer being part of the ECG/ECS. I trust the good people of Uxbridge will pay all the additional accountancy fees for SMEs and micro-businesses in the UK in order to comply with any changes to indirect taxes regimes - it is their fault for voting for Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:55 AM

"Britain ***** up a newly liberated Ireland by imposing a sectarian partitioned Stat"

The fourth and final Home Rule Bill (the Government of Ireland Act 1920) partitioned the island into Northern Ireland (six northeastern counties) and Southern Ireland (the rest of the island)

The Irish Free State 6 December 1922 – 29 December 1937) was a state established in 1922 under the Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921. That treaty ended the three-year Irish War of Independence between the forces of the self-proclaimed Irish Republic, the Irish Republican Army (IRA), and British Crown forces.

The Free State was established as a Dominion of the British Commonwealth of Nations. It comprised 26 of the 32 counties of Ireland. Northern Ireland, which comprised the remaining six counties
exercised its right under the Treaty to opt out of the new state.

In the first months of the Free State, the Irish Civil War was waged between the newly established National Army and the anti-Treaty IRA, who refused to recognise the state. The Civil War ended in victory for the government forces, with the anti-Treaty forces dumping their arms in May 1923.



What history book are you using Jim? It appears riddled with errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:55 AM

Why can't you persuade the Northerners to join you now? We still don't want them.

A little harsh. I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:07 AM

We have been over this a thousamnnd times Iain's
I certainly have no intention of re-opening it with a couple of Cut-'n-Paste historians

"I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want".
That's damned big of you Nigel - it's not the issue
The difference between the wants and don't wants and don't wants is now minute and shrinking - Brexit has hastened that process.
What is at stake is what happens when it reaches parity - Britain's approach to the border (both internal and seaward) risks a violent conclusion
revisionist "historians(sic) like Iains and Keith are typical of the situation and the causes self-imposed hatred and ignorance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:16 AM

Well Jim if your sentence was accurate I would have no problem with it. But as I have demonstrated, it is a pack of lies. There is no point in further argument.

You use this forum repeatedly to demonstrate your hatred of all things British. Though I suspect your hatred does not extend as far as refusing your British pension!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:27 AM

The people who hate Britain are those who will happily damage peoples' lives to advance their own self interests, rather than dedicate their lives towards enriching society. I love my country, I love the fact the Britain in a better place for what diverse cultures have brought to society. I detest those who abuse their power (politically, economically) and position to drag this country down into the gutter.

I am hoping that in 9-10 years the likes of farage, johnson, mogg, gove, may have not *****d up my desire to retire to Prague. I have had nothing in writing guaranteeing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:37 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:07 AM
. . .
"I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want".
That's damned big of you Nigel - it's not the issue

The whole of my short comment was in response to Keith's Why can't you persuade the Northerners to join you now? We still don't want them.

Read it in that context, and you will realise that I am not against you in what I said.

That doesn't mean that I agree with your other views on what, or whose, actions and views are prejudicing the future of Ireland. But on this occasion there's no need to 'jump down my throat' for a considered response.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:40 AM

From: SPB-Cooperator:

I am hoping that in 9-10 years the likes of farage, johnson, mogg, gove, may have not *****d up my desire to retire to Prague. I have had nothing in writing guaranteeing this.

Nobody is likely to have had any effect on your desire to retire to Prague.
Your ability to retire may be another thing, but again, I doubt that Brexit will have done anything to prevent it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:47 AM

A little harsh. I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want.

They do want, so we have to keep them. A huge drain in treasure but at least not blood any more.

They want to remain in EU. Britain is leaving. Republic is remaining.
It should be a no-brainer, but they STILL want to stay with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:50 AM

I suspect you know full well what SPB meant, Nigel. Nitpicking adds nothing to the argument. The ability to reside in other European countries will undoubtedly be affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:58 AM

" The ability to reside in other European countries will undoubtedly be affected."

The automatic right to reside in other EUcountries may well be affected. A slightly different concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 07:02 AM

The automatic right to reside in other EUcountries may well be affected. A slightly different concept.

Or even: The automatic right (of British Nationals) to reside in other EU countries may well be affected. I take it the French right to reside in France will be unaffected by Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 07:41 AM

I can only repeat that nitpicking adds nothing to the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 07:45 AM

My personal opinion would be that posts which do not make clear what it is they mean to say add nothing to the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:06 AM

I have recently answered a question on another website where I used the ambiguities in the word "day" by way of illustrating how ambiguous English is. It is almost impossible to write a truly unambigous English sentence. Indeed, a very large part of commercial law is about such ambiguities.

I think nitpicking is often associated with a point that is well understood but would rather not be addressed, so a "non-response" nitpicking is used instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM

And my opinion is that anyone who cannot discern the actual meaning of a poorly worded statement, given the context and history, should not really be involved in complex discussions.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:46 AM

...but of course none of this has anything to do with brexit, serves only to derail the thread and is a poor substitute for good arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:50 AM

The ambiguities in the English language come from the imprecision of the user.
'Day' is a good example, today, this day, etc. are fine in general speech. But 'Day' can mean the period from sunrise to sunset on a particular date, or a period of 24 hours, (Either from midnight to midnight, or some other selection).
Confusion can be avoided by more careful selection from the language.
For 'Sunrise to sunset' use 'daytime'
For some random consecutive period of 24 hours, use '24 hours'
For midnight to midnight (24 hours) use 'calendar day'.

It is not that English is ambiguous, it is that so few people choose to use the correct words to give the specific meaning they intend to convey.
The diversity of the English language allows you to choose exactly the right word(s) to convey your meaning clearly, but is lost on those who believe that any word can simply be replaced by any other which appears under the same heading in a thesaurus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:02 AM

It is still off topic, but even leaving aside the occasional leap second complications, "24 hours" and "midnight to midnight" do not always denote the same length of time. So if you used 'day' like that you are open to nitpicking.

As we all are, all the time. That's why seeking genuine clarification is fine, but nitpicking is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:16 AM

So getting back to Brexit: Keith claimed that the reason Nigel, Iains and others had not responded is because he had already said everything they would want to say, that the government will do it all.

Is that the case, Nigel, and others? Because Raab's department is due to issue documents over the next few weeks that they say will spell out what we need to do as households and businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM

Spot on DMcG.

Back to the main plot...

The brexiteers on here seem to have acquired an unexpected ally.

Jeremy Corbyn has tried to put a possitive spin on things at least. Something that those on here have spectacularly failed to do. Shall we assume that you shall all now join the Labour party and support Corbyn?

and before you ask, yes, I do support Jeremy and no, I do not agree with him on everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:37 AM

If talking about the EU, why talk about Europe?Sloppy wording implies sloppy thinking. We see a lot of it here! There is no ambiguity between EU and Europe. One is a geographical entity, the other political.
Mixing the two is simply erroneous and nonsensical.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM

So you are opposed to the term Brexit when it should be UKexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:42 AM

Do you want to make the point about nitpicking again, DMcG, or shall I?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:44 AM

No, let's just give them time to respond to stockpiling questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

50 countries in europe only 28 in EU. Hardly nitpicking to point out an obvious error. There is only free movement between EU members.

Do you think the moon landings could have occurred without insisting on numerical accuracy?

Why do you not just admit you screwed up, then we could move on?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:54 AM

Nigel, if it helps at all, yes, I did say Europe when I meant EU. Everyone knows what we are talking about anyway so it is an irrelevance. Now, why do you not just admit that you are picking up on these trivial points to detract from the fact that you have run out of anything sensible to say about brexit?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:03 AM

Was it not Diane Abbot who reputedly asked how much was a carrillion?
It rather demonstrates the insouciance for figures exhibited by those of the left, especially if the figures concern other people's money!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:05 AM

Oh, and for what it is worth, if I do get down to Moira I shall astutely avoid the Mudgather for fear of being told that the word is asked rather than axed or that sailors did not actually wear red top boots ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:10 AM

"It is not that English is ambiguous, it is that so few people choose to use the correct words to give the specific meaning they intend to convey.
The diversity of the English language allows you to choose exactly the right word(s) to convey your meaning clearly, but is lost on those who believe that any word can simply be replaced by any other which appears under the same heading in a thesaurus."

Very pompous.

So we're not all professors of English here, nor are we writing legalise. What's more, it's possible to be in a hurry and post with insufficient proofreading, and, as I know to my cost, it's possible to temporarily lose one's reading specs. You need to learn to live with it, Nigel. Your own use of English, stiff and colourless as it is, is far from perfect and nothing gives me greater delight than pointing out the failings of nitpickers such as yourself and one or two others here. To see the biter bit is a delicious experience. To avoid being in that unenviable position, just tell us what you think about brexit, etc., and ignore the occasional human failing. As has been pointed out to you, it's perfectly easy to glean what people really mean.

As for Corbyn, he's one of those few incorrigible old lefties who haven't changed their stance since the 70s and 80s when to be a leftie meant that you were anti-Europe. Around 90% of the half-million extra members he attracted to the party after his election are pro-EU. You might expect them to be mostly lefties, yet they are not for brexit. I was rigidly anti-EU meself for a very long time but like most lefties I've seen the light. It's my guess that even Tony Benn would be pro-EU by now were he still around.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:12 AM

Words as sung

We're reet down in't coal'ole wheer't muck slaps on't winders
We've used all our coal up and we're reet down t'cinders
When bum bailiff comes callin' he won't know wheer't find us
Coz we're reet down in't coal'ole wheer't muck slaps on't winders

Words the pedants would insist on

We are in the basement where the dust accumulates on the casement
We have utilised all our anthracite and we have nothing left but the residue
When the landlords representative visits he will not know where we are
Because we are in the basement where the dust accumulates on the casement

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM

Legalese. That was the soddin' spellchecker this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:55 AM

We all knew what you meant, Steve, Bar one. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM

I am sure Diane Abbott mean't carillon. The Express, that bastion of brexiter ignorance and ill-education, famously published the headline:

"Carillon collapse hits shares of rivals Galliford Try and Balfour Beatty"

I suspect that the only way a carillon collapse could do this would be to fall on their directors. Though this might always send the shares up of course.

How much is a carillon? There are various sites from manufacturers and restorers, none seem to give prices. The answer seems to be that if you have to ask, you can't afford one.

All of which would be way over the heads of the readers of the Express of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:16 AM


I am sure Diane Abbott meant carillon

Or more like she said no such thing and it is a made up story. But if Iains would like to provide evidence she did say it, perhaps he could provide link.

But still nothing from Iains on those stockpiles....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:27 AM

"But as I have demonstrated, it is a pack of lies. "
Isn't it always where it comes to criticising British History ?
Your Wiki cut-'n-paste (from someone who has regularly sneered at Wiki and usually depends on old reliables such as Guido Fawkes) is heavily outdated by the writings of Historians like Christine Kenneally, Tim Par Coogan, and even the fine English writer Robert Kee
Even the good old Thames Television series on 'The Troubles' kicked your Imperial interpretation into touch
Wake up - the Empire's long dead
If it's all lies - prove it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:33 AM

"It is not that English is ambiguous, it is that so few people choose to use the correct words to give the specific meaning they intend to convey.
The diversity of the English language allows you to choose exactly the right word(s) to convey your meaning clearly, but is lost on those who believe that any word can simply be replaced by any other which appears under the same heading in a thesaurus."

Very pompous.

No! Absolutely correct. Any technical reports have to be written in very precise language in order to avoid ambiguity. Just because there may be a preponderance of arty/crafty lefties here that favour loosely constructed sentences, and are happy with approximations of what they wish to say does, not alter this reality. It is a good job airline pilots can follow precise instructions and do not rely on approximations. After all, when flying there is a world of difference between a 1000mm and 1000m when defining altitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:45 AM

Rather ironic that a post in which you champion accuracy in language is actually full of gibberish.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:51 AM

If Diane actually said that, I imagine it was a piss-take on Dubya's celebrated Bushism, thus:

Giving Bush his daily war briefing, Donald Rumsfeld ended by saying: 'Yesterday, three Brazilian soldiers were killed.' 'Oh no!', exclaimed Bush. 'That's terrible.' His staff were stunned by this display of emotion. Finally Bush raised his head from his hands and asked: 'OK, so how many is a Brazillion?'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:09 PM

" I imagine it was a piss-take on Dubya's celebrated Bushism"

Don't fink so. Here is your starter   for 10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZ262b7wBI

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:11 PM

or this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWYIkhJdOZI

Would be a comedy in any other circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:24 PM

Is that your evidence to justify "Was it not Diane Abbot who reputedly asked how much was a carrillion?"

Because the answer would seem to be "no". It is certainly not in that collection of worst moments, anyway.

But that is still not Brexit, you know. Since you seem be avoiding the stockpile issues, what about the vain attempts to override the negotiations by talking directly to the individual countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:40 PM

Diane Abbot is numerically challenged, , like many of the left!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:44 PM

I would consider they are avoiding to the stockpiling news because like any rational person they realise the serious implications for the future health of the country and have no answer. I would go further and suggest that even they are now having doubts about the UK leaving the EU and the damage that may be inflicted upon it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

Raggytash if anyone had a grain of sense they would stockpile necessities in case of any event that destroyed supply chains. It may be very clever to have just in time deliveries and no doubt has accountants drooling, but just consider how long those supply chains are and also   how vulnerable.
A forecast of leaves on the line, or a light snowfall in 6 months time has the supermarkets out of bread and milk in an instant. Any kind of real crisis would cause havoc. I believe Maggie wound down emergency stockpiles with the ending of the cold war. A total embargo would have us out of fuel and food in less than a month I believe. If the average person has a weeks supply of food I would be surprised.
You may put your trust in government, I prefer tin cans.