BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

Richard, Time magazine yesterday.

"Fatality figures provided by Hamas and other groups should be viewed with suspicion. Not only do Israeli figures cast doubt on claims that the vast majority of fatalities are non-combatants, but a careful review of Palestinian sources also raises doubts.

Analyses of the casualties listed in the daily reports published by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based organization operating under Hamas rule, indicate that young males ages 17 to 30 make up a large portion of the fatalities, and a particularly noticeable spike occurs between males ages 21 to 27, a pattern consistent with the age distribution typically found among combatants and military conscripts. Palestinian sources attempt to conceal this discrepancy with their public message by labeling most of these young men as civilians. Only a minority is identified as members of armed groups. As a result, the PCHR calculates civilian fatalities at 82% as of July 26. PCHR provides the most detailed casualty reports of the various Palestinian agencies from Gaza that provide figures to the media and to international organizations like the UN. Its figures closely match those of the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry and other groups.

We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel's "Operation Cast Lead" in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN's own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR's figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. "
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:11 AM

If it isn't murder, then what is it?

Eh?

By the way, the worm asks why I mention sexual deviancy of others. When they accuse me of wicked things with no foundation, such as supporting Hamas, I remind them of what an awful slur without foundation means. If you haven't worked that out, I'd get back to my arse fixation if I were you. And on that, you provide the evidence loud and proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

Musket,

YOU repeat the lies that Hamas makes.

YOU have been informed of the falsehood of the Hamas statements, yet you continue to repeat them. You make no effort to verify your lies, or present any evidence, yet expect us to accept the Hamas Propaganda "since you heard it on BBC".

YOU HAVE BEEN GIVING SUPPORT TO A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, KNOWINGLY, AND ARE ENCOURAGING THEIR WAR CRIMES WITH THAT SUPPORT.


Now STOP presuming that the rest of us have YOUR sexual preferences.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM

AND you STILL have not made a valid contribution to THIS thread ABOUT THE CALIPHATE.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

Murder is a deliberate.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 09:44 AM

Like putting civilians in an area where you are storing and launching rockets, as Hamas has done.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 09:55 AM

Ian.... Your remarks were a deliberate smear against Bruce and several other members.

I disagree with Israeli tactics in Gaza, but I also think that there should be a permanent homeland for Israelis AND Palestinians, radical Islamists do not. Bruce made a point which you decided to answer with a deliberate personal smear.

Adherence to strict ideology causes loss of reason, you appear
to have lost the ability to reason, when confronted by uncomfortable truths on many different issues, you resort to personal abuse.

The last refuge of a scoundrel....or a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

"Mark Levin interviewed the son of the founder of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef, tonight on his show to get more insight into the terrorist group that runs the Gaza Strip.

Yousef made it crystal clear that Hamas doesn't just want to destroy the state of Israel, but wants a global caliphate on every inch of land around the world, and he said they will kill as many palestinians as they need to accomplish this goal."

href="http://therightscoop.com/awesome-mark-levin-interviews-son-of-hamas-founder-mosab-hassan-yousef-who-says-israel-is-fighting-for-">http://therightscoop.com/awesome-mark-levin-interviews-son-of-hamas-founder-mosab-hassan-yousef-who-says-israel-is-fighting-for-

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM

tHIS WAR CAN ONLY GET WORSE BEFORE IT GETS HORRIBLY UNIMAGINABLY WORSE.


god damn fucking religions!
god damn weapons.
god damn vengeance.
god damn RELGIOUS states AND nationalistic certainty.
Damn man for evoking god as their justification for war or jihad.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:58 AM

There are several Middle East wars, all but one nothing to do with Israel.

"The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said about 1,240 soldiers and other Assad loyalists have been killed in the past 10 days in northern Syria.
(TEN DAYS!)

They are among more than 1,800 people killed in the same period — a record number of deaths since the uprising against Assad began in March 2011, according to Rami Abdurrahman, the Observatory's director.

Other activists in Syria confirmed that past weeks have seen a record death toll. Syria's three-year civil war has already killed more than 170,000 people, nearly a third of them civilians, according to activists."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/28/syria-death-toll_n_5626482.html
(2 days ago)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM

Some extracts from an article by Melanie Phillips in this week's Spectator ~~ posted simultaneously on the 'Small Hope' & 'Caliphate' threads:

Every time Israel takes military action to prevent further Palestinian attacks, it is falsely presented as the aggressive persecutor of the innocent.
Unless British Jews join this demonisation, they are deemed complicit with Israel's 'war crimes'. As a result, attacks on British Jews always spike during Israel's wars. So much for the supposed distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. [MGM's emphasis]
Anti-Semitism singles out Jews for treatment applied to no other people: the application of double standards, false claims they are committing crimes of which they are instead the victims, and demonic conspiratorial powers. This is precisely the treatment applied to Israel.
But then the left marches side by side with Islamists, who are committed to the persecution of gays and women, while it boycotts Israel, the only place in the Middle East where Muslims enjoy human rights.

I am aware that some, whom I shall not name but we all know who, will denounce this as the ravings of a well-known, & hence ignorable, right-orientated journo; & [probably not in as many words, but implied nonetheless] a fucking yiddie bitch at that.

But some of the human beings who occasionally visit this forum might find some food for a bit of thought.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

Beardedbruce said I repeat what Hamas say.

Considering I have no idea what they say in the context he states and considering unlike him I don't give credence to those who use terrorism to achieve their ends....

That makes beardedbruce a liar who slurs others because he has no argument to make.



Michael. If an "Islamist" states that he likes to watch cricket, then in the words of Melanie Phillips, on that subject I march side by side with an Islamist.

Denouncing Israeli occupation, internment and murder of the Palestinian people in Gaza isnt marching with any religion inspired philosophy, its being human and being shocked by criminality and pogroms.

And that is morality, real morality. Fuck all to do with mealy mouthed religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

What she actually said, "But then the left marches side by side with Islamists, who are committed to the persecution of gays and women, while it boycotts Israel, the only place in the Middle East where Muslims enjoy human rights."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

" a fucking yiddie bitch at that."
A despicable statement even by your standards

As I said earlier - anti-Semitism is the domain of the right - you qualify with honours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM

Advanced Point-Missing

Final

And the Gold Medal goes to ~~~

yes, folks, let's hear it yet again for

                            J·i·m C·a·r·r·o·l·l

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

It's intentional.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

The Caliphate has destroyed the tomb of Younis (Jonah) and the mosque near Mosul.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM

yes, folks, let's hear it yet again for J·i·m C·a·r·r·o·l·l
And the prize for not committing himself and letting others do the dirty work for him by sticking their necks out goes to -- Lenny the Lion Myer.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:39 AM

So. Jimmy Boy,

YOU approve of the destruction of Mosques and holy sites as long as it is done by Muslims?

There is a HISTORY of Islamists destroying holy sites- Throughout the world. Yet it MUST be Israel's fault, right??? If Israel would just go away, the poor misunderstood extremist Muslims would live in peace and happiness ( right after they declare their world-wide Caliphate and kill all the leftists that are supporting them here, and all the Muslim moderates that keep quiet for fear of being targeted).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

"YOU approve of the destruction of Mosques and holy sites as long as it is done by Muslim"
Nope - nor do I approve of the destruction of hospitals school and homes, as done on a massive scale by the Israelis (especially as most of them were occupied when they were destroyed)
What's your point - are you asking which of these do I feel to be most important?
"There is a HISTORY of Islamists destroying holy sites"
There is a history of all religions and nationalities destroying, desecrating and looting the sites of religions they don't approve of - ever been to The British Museum?
The British Empire systematically destroyed hundreds of religions in their crusade 'civilise the world and turn "the savage hand from error's chain".   
You are not seriously suggesting that Islam is the only religion intolerant of other religions, are you.....?
Not even you would be that thick, O Bearded One!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

No, Jim. But name any of the others in which it is, NOW, {not any time in the past, but NOW, today, this very minute), a capital offence anywhere in the world to convert to one of the others.

Go on. Just one?...

Thought not...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:01 AM

"No, Jim. But name any of the others in which it is, NOW"
At the present time Islam is in the ascendancy and the fanatics are able to do anything they wish.
Christianity, when it was a power to be reckoned with, did as they wished.
When the Americans were in Iraq they were part of the looting and destruction of religious artifacts that took place in places such as Baghdad museum and art gallery.
On numerous occasions American troops deliberately set out to offend Muslims by destroying their holy books
They destroyed shrine and temple in Cambodia when they were there.
Buddhists have recently destroyed holy places in South East Asia.
Religions attempt to wipe out other religions   
Singling out one religion and ignoring the record of our native religions seems to be what you do.
Personally, they are all one to me - I have no religion and I can't think of a church, as a body, I would give my vote to - but I detest the idea that any religion should be used to sow dissension among people - they all do it or allow it to happen- one is no better than the other.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:10 AM

No -- I think that sort of relativism is just plain silly.

They are all disagreeable and stupid and foolish and censorious indeed. But it is no sort of either sense or logic to go from there to the position that one cannot regard any of them as worse, as more disagreeable &........, than any of the others. IMO Islam is more mischievous, both in its beliefs and teachings and in its resultant actions, than any other I can think of at the present time.

YMMV, naturally, as is your right. But if I were you I shouldn't strike too many attitudes of moral virtue about it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:15 AM

...not while they're so busy smashing women's heads in with rocks & caning young girls' bare bottoms publicly and cutting people's heads off so regularly...

And you know that is what happens - NOW - in Saudi & Yemen & Malaysia & N Nigeria, and don't pretend you don't, and don't pretend you think anything comparable is going on in the rest of the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:14 AM

"I shouldn't strike too many attitudes of moral virtue about it."
I don't - as I've said before, I've always found it far easier to discuss my non-religion with ordinary practicing Muslims I've met than I have with practicing Christians - more tolerant by far.
Most of the Jews I knew were either lapsed or atheist, so I can't comment.
It's not Muslims, or Christians or Jews or whoever, I have a problem with - just their organisations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:40 AM

'Organisations' are not abstract concepts. PEOPLE run them! It's people who stone those women & cane those girls & behead those men. If it was just organisations they wouldn't end up so dead or sore.

,..,

"Videos circulated of 50 soldiers' heads stuck on poles at Raqqa in Syria by troops acting for Isis, which now calls itself the Islamic State". Spectator Portrait of the Week

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:34 PM

"Organisations' are not abstract concepts. PEOPLE run them"
Not individually, they don't - its when they form themselves into a church they become a problem - I can honestly say I have never met a Muslim who I would have thought would advocate stoning anybody or carrying out female genital mutilation....
I've read about them though, just as I've read about Christians who march about in pointy white hoods carrying burning crosses and advocate stringing up "niggers", especially those who step out of line in regard to white women.
Modern laws have made much of this a thing of the past, but that doesn't mean the will has gone away.
Some of the atrocities carried out in Apartheid South Africa in the name of Christianity with the blessing of the Dutch Reform Church doesn't bear a re-visit.
I wouldn't particularly like to be a Muslim in today's Israel, particularly right at this present moment.
You can point to religious extremism in any society and pull out excesses in behaviour.
Isis is, of course, a fair point, but it is very much a case of peoples trying to break with the old ways and failing - for all sorts of reasons.
Much of the modern-day rise of religious extremism in the Middle East and Africa is a direct product oil wars, searches for W.M.D., selecting friendly fundamentalists rather that hostile secular governments, arms sales..... business and politics; as that nice Mr Cable said, "We sometimes sell arms to states with dubious human rights records".
It will be interesting to see, if Assad finally wins out in Syria, whether he will once again become a close ally of Britain, as he was when he was only filling his torture chambers with opponents where the world couldn't see.
Little of this has to do with real religion; rather, it's about religion being used for political or economic ends - when it comes to it, people are people everywhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:46 PM

"Isis is, of course, a fair point, but it is very much a case of peoples trying to break with the old ways and failing"
.,.

If only, Jim. Tell that to the widows of the previous owners of those 50 heads I mentioned last post...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM

Christians who march about in pointy white hoods carrying burning crosses and advocate stringing up "niggers", especially those who step out of line in regard to white women.
Modern laws have made much of this a thing of the past, but that doesn't mean the will has gone away.
Some of the atrocities carried out in Apartheid South Africa in the name of Christianity with the blessing of the Dutch Reform Church doesn't bear a re-visit.
.,,.
Quite, Jim. As you quite fairly point out, although all that was too recent for comfort, it is all in the past.

Isis isn't. Those heads on poles are probably still there -- now, at this very moment...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:25 PM

"Tell that to the widows of the previous owners of those 50 heads I mentioned last post.."
Oh dear - using the dead as a platform again Mike.
Isis got where it was today largely for the reasons I described.
The responsibility certainly lies with Isis extremism but the fact that they are were they are is the responsibility of oil thirsty nations who cynically created the conditions for their proliferation
States like Bahrain have appalling human rights records - The Arab Spring had barely got going when Cameron was falling on his arse to sell them weapons.
Both sides of the Libyan conflict were killing each other using British artillery.
It seems that Islamism is far less of a worry where commerce is concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:44 PM

Jim, you do repeat your argumentative effects to the point [or pointlessness] of tedium. It doesn't enhance your points, you know.

What, eg, is all this constant whitter about my 'using the dead as a platform'? If we are in a discussion where people's deaths are an issue, then what in hell's name effect is that particular constant meaningless accusation supposed to compass? You are really doing your disputative repute no good with these incessant non-point attacks!

Or can you find some way of explaining this point so that we shall all have some idea what you are on about, with your 'platforms'?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM

"If we are in a discussion where people's deaths are an issue, then what in hell's name effect is that particular constant meaningless accusation"
You appear to be making the point that none of what I have said makes any difference to the fact that people are being killed - you did it presistently with the soldier who was murdered in Woolwich.
I really am with you as far as Isis is concerned, but I have little doubt that, should the opportunity present itself, they would be as likely customers for the British Arms Industry as was Assad.
Sorry if I have got you wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:22 PM

Still don't quite see what you mean about "using as a platform". If your are, as you say, stressing that people are being killed, than I am not going to post about cute puppy-dogs or the landscape of the Lake District, am I? But what is this 'platform' that you keep going on about?

Genuinely puzzled as to what you mean by the term..

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM

"You appear to be making the point that none of what I have said makes any difference to the fact that people are being killed"
.,,.

... and here's another bit I can make nor heads nor tails of, Jim. What "difference to the fact that people are being killed" does anything you say make, do you think?

Puzzleder & puzzleder...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:50 PM

"Genuinely puzzled as to what you mean by the term.."
Sorry - not explaining myself.
I'm the first one to use human suffering as an argument, but I try to do so while at the same time, suggesting a reason and maybe a solution.
For me, the deaths tang place are due to religious extremism being used fr political purposes - presenting them in response to a specific opinion as if they contradicted that opinion.
You may disagree with that opinion, if so, show where I am wrong - despite our differences, I do try to understand your point of view.
Simply relying on the feelings of the widows of those whose heads ended up on spike is more likely to produce more heads on spikes rather than an understanding of how they got there in the first place.
Again - sorry if I have missed your point - it really wasn't intentional.
Must go - haven't seen 'The Big Country' for forty years!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM

Hope you enjoyed The Big Country. I once interviewed Burl Ives for The Guardian. Very charming man he was too; but had one of those never-out-of-hearing wives sitting in on the interview. An interesting thing, in retro, was that Colin Irwin & I met him in his suite at the Grand Hotel, Brighton, during the 1st Brighton Folk Festival of 1977; we all know what happened there 7 years later...

I am sure we both regard deaths as a result of ideological/political differences as a misfortune. Seems to me that both trying to find solutions to the differences sufficient at least to avoid future deaths resulting, and considering what the effect on the survivors might be, are different aspects of the topic worth exploring; neither in any way that I can see preventing proper consideration of the other. I don't see why you think favouring one above the other to be mounting any sort of unworthy 'platform', which I now take to be your point?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 04:22 PM

... also, BTW, later wrote one of Burl's Guardian obituaries: they ran two side-by-side, mine on him as a folksinger, the other on his films. I remember he said to me that he reckoned he got by because actors thought he was a singer and singers thought he was an actor...

Nuff drift!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:12 PM

Brilliant! The Kurds can kick some serious jihadi butt. I hope they forge an alliance with Israel soon.

Peshmerga Forces Kill 20 Militants, Capture 30 West of Mosul

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM

"I don't see why you think favouring one above the other to be mounting any sort of unworthy 'platform', which I now take to be your point?"
I'm not sure our views differ too much on the rights and wrongs of what is happening in the Middle East - problem is that it's difficult to find out what they are when it is assumed that we take sides - I have been accused of doing so throughout these arguments - I really don't.
I don't want another religion-based Government, any more than I believe you don't, but I am appalled at the brutality of the situation, not only in the present bloodbath, but also in the every-day lives of the Gazans, particularly over the last near-decade.
Whoever broke the cease-fire, I have little doubt that I will open the newspaper later and read that an Israeli soldier has been kidnapped - with afterthought - I might be able to find how the estimates 60-odd dead and 200 injured Palestinians met their particular fates.
As far as I have been concerned, all the politicians in this mess can all go to their own chosen Hells in their own particular hands-carts, but the fact that an estimated 1,500 Palestinians have now died and none of these politicians seem to care too much about it, makes me angry.
I very much doubt if Hamas will be party to any permanent cease-fire that doesn't include the lifting of the blockade and the allowing of the lives of the Palestinians to return to some degree of normalcy.
I also doubt that the Israelis will sign anything that doesn't allow them to hold on to what they have and to continue to build new settlements - they made that clear during the last round of peace talks.
As far as I can see, the situation has to be put in the hands of the U.N. and any rights of veto that can impair a balanced solution need to be removed, otherwise the Palestinians are going to end up like the Native Americans, scattered all over the Middle East on reservations.
There are already calls for "the levelling of Gaza" if the soldier isn't returned, and from the beginning the Israeli extremists have been howling that the troops must "push on and finish the job now it's been started".
"Burl Ives"
Didn't get to watch the film after all - Library project; I recorded it and will do so later.
Wonder if you asked him about his giving evidence against Pete Seeger and the rest during the H.U.A.C. trials, when you interviewed him?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

No. It wasn't that sort of interview. It was Arts pages, not news or politics. So it would have been unprofessional, even if I had thought of it; which I don't think I did, concentrating as I was on the job I was being paid to do, which was asking him about singing.

Of course, I get the polemical point you are making, Jim; and no doubt it is fair enuff from your pov. But a bit below·the·belt IMO.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:52 AM

No intentions of hitting you anywhere Mike - I'm a pacifist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:30 PM

An astute observation from my friend Bruce Rosenberg:

"What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference. And yet judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the difference ran the other way.

This kind of confusion puts all of us in danger. This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don't want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It's just that some of us haven't realized it yet."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:21 AM

They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about.

Lefty liberals should hate that and support opposition to it.
Yet they do not.

Meanwhile in the region, two Libyan cities are the scene of heavy fighting and Western embassy staff evacuated, violence and murder daily in our new caliphate, and the worst violence in the whole region, that in Syria, today spills over into Lebanon with many deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:40 AM

I've just done a poll of 100 people.

50 think stifling freedom by imposing religious views on the rest of humanity is wrong. The other 50 were Christians.

100 of them couldn't say what a lefty liberal was.

100 of them felt that when a fool is ashamed of his earlier bloodthirsty support for Israeli terrorists, he tries to change the subject. Syria and Libya being two cited examples.

Next.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:10 AM

This thread is not about Israel, and Christians like most Muslims are not committed to imposing their religion on others.

Why are you only interested in one of the Middle East conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM

Quoth Poo-bad "What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about"

It is not too much of a leap to accept that of ISIS and Boko Haram. I think you should perhaps evidence the statement about al-Quaeda and Hamas. It seems to me that Hamas has a legitimate grievance that is not being addressed.

Here is a link some days old listing the Palestinian dead. How do people like Poo-bad know they were in Hamas? According to the "Time" magazine article linked to - because they were the right age. It's hard to see that as sufficient evidence to validate killing someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM

Ooops, the link make your own blicky, http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:38 AM

"It seems to me that Hamas has a legitimate grievance that is not being addressed."

And what would that be exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM

Many people have grievances.
Going to war is not the best way of addressing them.

If the casualties were "mostly civilians" you would expect a representative sample of the civilian population.
The large excess of young men requires an explanation.

Al Qaeda is committed to establishing a global caliphate.
That is the goal of Isalmism.
Hamas is itself an Islamist organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:31 AM

Hamas is a political party with Christians and atheists in its number. It had control of the Palestinian army in the same way the conservative party has control of the British Army.

And what the flying fuck Al Qaeda is doing in your commentary on Palestine is beyond me. Yes, there must be many people in Hamas sympathetic to the aims of Al Qaeda (which does not wish for a global caliphate, prick) and that makes them dangerous in the same way gung ho foolish British military top brass occasionally need reining in by ministers and diplomats with vast greater grasp on issues. (The Alan Clark diaries were fascinating. He may have been a bit of a twat but his grasp of history and his contempt for chiefs of staff when a defence minister start making up for his occasional stupidity.)