BS: Unity

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 03:47 PM

Oh yeah?/...Whatcha' got in mind???

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:55 PM

Seems that the prevailing conspiracy theory here is that Obama was handpicked by the aristocracy??? Hmmmmmm????

No, Obama was the furtherest thing from the aristocracy's poster boy as it's next commander-in-thief... He wasn't even on their radar...

What really happened is that he did what Jimmy Carter did a long time ago... He excited people and he out organized the aristocracy's shoe-in choice, Hillary Clinton...

Now ya'll can go about gettin' this all sanitized and revised to fit yer individual and collective cynical ideas of how things work but this ol' hillbilly ain't doin' this particual conspiracy theory this time around...

I like Obama... Even if happened to choose Hillary to be his VP I'd still like Obama... And, I ain't even a democrat and the last one I voted for fot pres. was Jimmy Carter...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

He was picked to make Hillary look to be a centrist, because he was so far to the left...read my prior text a little better....he was NOT picked to win....

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 06:42 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah...Most of the time he voted 'present' he even voted against the one bill he wrote....(even Edwards called him on it during the debates)now go back to sleep

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 06:43 PM

Mutual terrification and admiration.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM

Mutual don't know what you mean...

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:32 PM

Sigh...you can impress each other with your sweeping generalizations about how corrupt everything is, and then admire each others' handiwork at fearmongering.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:43 PM

Nothing happened in Unity today

(Saskatchewan)

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 08:26 PM

She's back and one in the same, doncha think, Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 08:44 PM

Amos, oh, ok...I thought you sere talking about us. Sorry, misunderstanding.....and 'Q' a lot happened here today, you just couldn't find any oil(smirking)

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:15 AM

What I am mainly interested in meeting GfS for is to hear his original music. Politics is not an interest that occupies a huge amount of my life outside of the daily chitchatting on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:57 AM

Me neither. I just stop by the computer a few times a day., and drop in. Even Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the pharisees, and of Caesar," pharisees being religion and, Caesar being politics! I'd much rather focus on spiritual things(not religious). And, as I've repeatedly said, 'I don't like ANY of the so-called candidates. Besides, the pen is mightier than the sword!....and me?..well I've called it for years. 'My ball-point sword'

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:26 AM

Well Amos , if we are fearmongers, I feel we have much to be frightened about.
One of the most frightening things on this thread is the reluctance of "Democrats" here to explain the role of the Party in American politics.....Why such obscene amounts of money are required to promote the candidates...why the cult of celebrity plays such a big part....Why does personality count for more than policy, to the extent that a cadidate can run his or her whole election campaign without stating clearly what they intend to do to give America a fairer social system, or what their intended foreign policy will be.

Looking from here, the Democratic Party seems to encompass all shades of political opinion, from centrist to extreme right wing, depending on the geography.

If this is correct, what is the reason for having a Democratic Party at all?

Why do you not just vote in some less virulent Republicans?

Or is the two Party system simply a con as many seem to think....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:17 AM

HEAR HEAR!!!! Cheers to Akenaton!! Hey, Ake, If you click on my name and pull up my posts, well..they SHOULD MAKE YOUR DAY! Nice to hear another sane person...they didn't 'get' you yet!!....Warmest Regards!

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:46 AM

Well, ake, over the last 8 years just about every piece of progressive legislation that was introduced in Conmgress was shot down by the Repub majority... It's not like there aren't folks who are trying to make some needed changes it's just there are more folks "standing in the doorway and blocking the halls"...

Take Dennis Kucinich's Department of Peace, for instance... He inmtroduces his bill every year and it gets shot down... Yeah, okay, many Dems don't get on board but if the Repubs weren't in such numbers that they could shoot it down the Dems might take it more seriously...

(And this from an active Green Party supporter going back a long, long time...)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

Hi GUEST...Thanks for the cheers, but I don't think we're makin' much progress with these earthlings!
Time we were getting back to our own Galaxy :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:36 PM

Bobert, there are times when I think that the Republicans are even worse than the Democrats...but they both serve the same masters. They are the "Good Cop" and "Bad Cop" of the oligarchy, and the public is the hapless prisoner who must choose which one of them to trust while being in their power. They are the "mommy" and "daddy" figures. They are the "Yankees" and the "Mets" in the great political World Series.

They are set up to keep people mesmerized and deluded by presenting them with a choice that is not a real choice at all...so the $ySStem continues to rule and to serve the huge financial/industrial/military interests that run the USA and that launch foreign wars of aggression on completely spurious justifications.

When a few honest politicans like Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich appear out of the ranks of those 2 corrupt parties and try to present something actually truthful about what is going on their statements are greeted with nervous laughter (in the case of Ron Paul) or they are shut out of the media debate process (in the case of Dennis Kucinich). If it were not for the Internet, most people would never hear what they had to say at all. The mainstream media cannot censor the Internet...so far.

It's a 2-headed Oligarchy. A 2-headed dragon. One head pretends to be a big tough-talkin' guy, a gun-totin', Bible-totin' John Wayne type father figure who will bravely defend America against all threats, foreign and domestic. That's the Republicans. The other head pretends to be a kindly, wise, mature, idealistic, responsible mother figure who will bravely protect the poor, the underprivileged, the minorities and who will bring social justice and environmental protection to the homeland in the noble traditions of such as John Kennedy and FDR. That's the Democrats.

They both lie through their teeth.

People who instinctively look to "Daddy" whenever the going gets tough will usually vote Republican. People who are more inclined to look to "Mommy" when the going gets tough will usually vote Democrat. (and that has very little to do with gender, by the way, it has to do with whatever form of social and family mythology you grew up sympathizing the most with in your youth) (in my case I generally found Mommy to have far better and wiser judgement than Daddy, so I just naturally can't frikkin' stand the Republicans!)

But I know this. Neither one of them is what they pretend to be. They do not serve the public. They serve the Oligarchy. Their differences in outer style are simply fodder for the media propaganda that gets people to keep trooping out dutifully and voting for them, like the wretched animals in Animal Farm giving their loyalty to that disgusting group of pigs that were dominating them.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

I'd have to agree with ya', LH...

But I feel "change" in the air... It's been a long time comin'... So long that alot of folks weren't 'round last time... Last time got way outta hand but as you know there are alot of us who were and can explain what the Who meant when thay sang "We won't get fooled again."

No, it the Dems that are all that worked up to change stuff but they just might get swept up in a movement by default... I mean, ya gotta have a "perfect storm" almost to bust up the corporate ballgame and as it turns out the Bush administration and its policies amount up to that perfect storm...

So I am excited... No, not because the Dems may take control of ther governemnt but because there are so many fronts that needs creative attention...

That's the way I see it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:04 PM

AKe:


I just fail to see why the Democrats should have to explain the mass neuroses of the media-driven culture; one which was largely generated by the obsessive quests for profits. Do you think Democrats designed it that way? I find the notion absurd.

There's a lot about party mechanisms we don't know about, for sure, and Iw ould love to have total transparency. But every piece of that nightmare--on both sides--is ggenerated by individual decision making. Those decisions can be based on good information, or on bad information, and motivated by principle, or by greed, or by irrational hate or fear. The complex composite of the system as a whole is no more the product of one of the parties than it is of the man in the moon. It's a species-wide psychosis that civilization is in the long so process of trying to find a way out of. And, I might add, doing a parlously poor job of it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:12 PM

Yeah... (smile)

But just think, Amos. I could be worse! Man, it could be a whole lot worse.

While on the one hand we have made quite a mess of things, on the other hand we also have accomplished much in the development of human civilization.

I have to remind myself of that every time I find myself going too negative. I hear a beautiful piece of music, I see a magnificently built sailboat moving silently across the water, and I think..."Wow. Amazing creatures we humans are..."

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

I meant to say "It could be worse", not "I could be worse". Not that I couldn't be worse...but it was a typo, okay? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

Little Hawk, I can't begin to tell you how deeply I disagree with your whole post that begins: "Bobert, there are times when I think that the Republicans are even worse than the Democrats...but they both serve the same masters. They are the "Good Cop" and "Bad Cop" of the oligarchy, and the public is the hapless prisoner who must choose which one of them to trust while being in their power. They are the "mommy" and "daddy" figures. They are the "Yankees" and the "Mets" in the great political World Series."

You are wrong, sirrah. There are many good people serving in both of those parties. Besides which, neither side is that well organized. If you are well and truly convinced that there is an over-weening authority manipulating the world, as in the Rothschilds and the Bohemian Grove, you may continue to believe the claptrap you are promulgating but otherwise, I think such a belief is silly.

Incidentally, there was no great conspiracy in locking out either Kucinich and or Ron Paul. If you will bother to look it up, you will see that there are rules that govern who is eligible to take part in offical political debates and neither Kucinich nor Paul met those standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:30 PM

YEah, I agree with Ebbie, but, ya know, don't sweat it. You could be worse.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:59 PM

Well, it certainly has been convient to play the conspiracy theories in trying to explain Obama... Problem is, like I've said, they just don't make sense at any level...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 09:34 PM

Amos & Ebbie, You, to whom I've had the pleasure of posting to both of you, and never seem to 'enjoy' other facets of our lives, and experiences, I believe are truly serious in your sincerity, to which you believe. I read Little Hawk's post, and actually was quite impressed with lots of it. I also know, that there are those who think it is all off-base. I do believe what he was pointing out had nothing to do with a 'Grand Conspiracy', think of it more like how a CEO of a major corporation, sees things( about the financial returns, overhead, Expansion, Investments to grow, power, and influence to achieve your goals. To excess, there's greed, and pride, and a lot of general self serving circuits going on, in their heads. They are not so inclined to give the sincerity to hope, nurturing a family, caring about their fellow humans, and the environment, and future generations, love and life, as maybe one of you, or even all of us. To some of those, it is the bottom line, the deal, the acquisition of power, and on and on and so forth..and by the time you think that what I've just said, is a possibility, or plausible there are ones out there, that have been at this quite a while....wouldn't you say?? Some, have actually been at this long enough, to have the means, to sway public opinion, trends, AND EVEN PUBLIC POLICY and the support of 'true believers'..who are, in deed, truly sincere, from where THEY come from........BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE THE OTHER GROUP COMES FROM!! These are the same people who will not stop at 'willing' public support, to 'unwilling public support, to achieve their goals.....Can you believe that?? Can you at least, conceive that 'could be plausible'?
So, the next place to ask, or wonder, is who, or what, can verify the truth, right? Ok, without any personal agenda, for personal gain...just to know, about this, and a lot of stuff(not even related), is to relax about it all, and just clear all your filters, in regards to re-enforcing any thing, and with all sincerity, ask God, the giver of live,,,from whom you came out from, to reveal it to you. Also note, 'intelligence is the ability to process information'....keep your filters clean, and you'll be able to gather what you need, by being able to process more information.(Note: Speed is a by-product of accuracy!) It's just like playing a musical instrument, learn accuracy...speed will follow.
   Next,..Did you watch that video I posted for you??
Hope you liked it. There's other things I like better, but it was somewhat akin to the one you posted me.
Last, but in the 'of course' land, when one is in a state of being a little more spiritual tight, you'll probably, more easily spot when some one, is selling you a 'bad bill of goods'...Hey!..God bless your efforts in yakkin' with him!!

P.s. Ebbie, though I was primarily posting to Amos,..help yourself to the input!!

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:22 PM

Ebbie, I think your disagreement with me rests on a couple of misunderstandings of what I am saying.

When I speak of "the Democrats" or "the Republicans" as a party, and in the context I was speaking in the post you were referring to, I am not speaking of all the millions of ordinary citizens who are members of those parties. I am not speaking of citizens who went to caucus meetings, etc. I am speaking of quite a small group of highly influential power brokers who are at the very top of those two parties...the "kingmakers", as it were, who make important policy decisions at the highest level of the party structure.

You say, "There are many good people serving in both of those parties." ABSOLUTELY! And I would never say otherwise. There are many good people serving in virtually any large hierarchical power structure. I was not referring to those many people, I was referring to a few very powerful people at the top of the pyramid. You will find that they are usually people with a lot of money...usually "old" money...and they've been playing the partisan game for their entire adult lives, and they all know each other (right across those party lines).

Furthermore, I am NOT, repeat, NOT saying that it is a great conspiracy! I have said again and again on different threads that it is not a conspiracy...it is simply the natural way that a system which is based on certain monetary forces plays itself out. The entrenched power structures in a society always play themselves out in such a way as naturally suits them and benefits them, simply because that's how it works.

Now, if you have an economy which has built itself around a constant high level of arms production, for instance, as the USA has ever since WWII then you have a built-in imperative to use those arms in frequent wars or supply them to wars and that in itself helps to set in motion policies in the world which lead to more wars. This was as true for the Roman Empire or many past empires as it is for the present American Empire.

It's not a conspiracy, it's simply the nature of the beast. Now, Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul were directly confronting that warmaking structure in society and saying, "We should stop doing this."

In so doing they were confronting tremendous established ways of doing things in the USA, ways that are supported by vast industrial and financial concerns. For those people to laugh nervously at Ron Paul and dismiss Kucinich as a "weirdo" is not a conspiracy...it's just good business taking care of itself.

You don't NEED a conspiracy when people's self-interest and greed (and the force of established habits) takes care of the matter all by itself.

So, I am not criticizing you or any other ordinary American citizen who happens to be a Republican or a Democrat on the basis of their party affiliation or the work they do for their party. I am criticizing the fundamental values that underly the present whole USA society (and Canada's as well) at a much deeper level, and I'm saying that those two parties you have in the USA are willy nilly serving outmoded, harmful, and entrenched interests because that's where the money is and the money controls the agenda.

You don't need a "conspiracy" to have that happen. All you need is a system where the money controls the agenda, and that's what you've got. That in itself is enough to royally screw both the USA and the world in general, because money is an artificial notion and if you base a whole society on pursuing and serving an artificial thing that someone made up in his mind you will find out in time that that society has lost touch with reality.

That's what happened to the Easter Islanders...and that is what is happening to our present societies right now....but on a much, much larger playing field, of course.

*********

The tricks that were used to keep Kucinich out of some of those TV debates, by the way, were not legitimate in the least...but it's a long argument, and I don't have much motivation to pursue it at the moment. It wouldn't change anything anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:07 AM

Little Hawk..That was very eloquent, in a way that articulates, that we both understand, though be it through much sadness, and disappointment. All the compromises, even the little tiny ones, slowly erode the moral fabric of the soul, and family, on to society. We have fallen so far!
I find that focusing on the command(not suggestion), that..'we do unto others, as we would have done unto ourselves'...and...'what you do unto the least of them, you do unto me'....IS the posture, that one must live within, to be free, in all, spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical ways.......besides that,...it's way more fun!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

Yeah, Kucinich got shafted by Big Media, LH.... No doubt about that and I would agree that the way he was treated was somewhat conspirital... Same has happened to Ralph Nader for the last 20 years... Ron Paul??? The same...

But what has happened in 2 Dem election cycles is the fix ain't workin' for them anymore... Last time it was Howard Dean... Remember "The Scream"... It was "manufactured" by his opponents... I've heard George Bush sound exactly like Howard Dean and it's a non issue... But Dean got beat up by Big Media, Big DNC and Big Repub because he represented, ahhhhh, problem solving over business-as-usual... So he was axed... The conspirators didn't have to get together and paln it because they all knew that a Dean administration would not be favorable to their power and control... So Dean was a axed...

But what Dean accomplished was puttting together a road map on how to beat the $y$tem with his use of the internet and in indoing so so positioned himself to, even in loss of the nomination, to pick off the DNC... This was the real wake-up call to the $y$tem as if found that it no longer had this *complete control" of information and not having comnplete control is somehting that Obama saw and rather than campaign as a busioness-as-usual candidate he took advantage of what Howard Dean's campaign had taught us in '04...

"The times are a'changin'" and that is why Obama has been able to weave his way thru the military/industrialist minefield and captured the nomination... And it's all about understanding how information can be presented without haing to depend on the corporatists allowing you to have access to thei Big Media...

Sure, the corporatists could have tried to "Kucinich" Obama but Obama had allready taken advantage of the internet, raised way too much cash form small donors and had out-organized the rest of the pack so Big Media was stuck and, for that matter, still stuck...

And I, for one, am loving it!!!

Like I said... Well, no I didn't say but Bob Dylan said back in the 60's "The times are a'changin'...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:59 PM

Bobert - Yeah, the Internet is making quite a difference, no doubt about it. We have a much freer flow of information than we would without it. This is good.

GfS - Dead right. Each moment of a person's life can be dedicated to living out those ideals...or not...and therein rests one's share of happiness or sorrow in this life. I have to keep reminding myself of that when I get negative, as I sometimes do.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:58 PM

As soon As I mentioned God, and spiritual things....my access has been denied!!wow!

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:18 PM

In the absence of any information on the ethos of the Democratic party...except for Bobert who doesn't count as he's a pesky Green...I've been rootin' around on my own.
Found a couple of nice articles by John Pilger which explain quite a bit about "Democratic" thinking.
"In 1941, the editor Edward Dowling wrote: "The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it." What has changed? The terror of the rich is greater than ever, and the poor have passed on their delusion to those who believe that when George W Bush finally steps down next January, his numerous threats to the rest of humanity will diminish."
John also delves back into Democrat history, describing the tradition of war-making and expansionism that Obama has left little doubt he will honour. He lists pronouncments from Obama. Supporting an "undivided Jerusalem" as the Israeli capital...Telling Cuban exiles that he will continue the illegal blockade...Making threatening statements to Leftist South American regimes, describing them as a "vacuum to be filled"

John concludes with the following indictment.
"It is time the wishful-thinkers grew up politically and debated the world of great power as it is, not as they hope it will be. Like all serious presidential candidates, past and present, Obama is a hawk and an expansionist. He comes from an unbroken Democratic tradition, as the war-making of presidents Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton demonstrates. Obama's difference may be that he feels an even greater need to show how tough he is. However much the colour of his skin draws out both racists and supporters, it is otherwise irrelevant to the great power game. The "truly exciting and historic moment in US history" will only occur when the game itself is challenged."

Full articles HERE AND HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

"The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it."

Ha! That is hilarious...and it's also absolutely correct. It was then, and it is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

AKe:

He said a lot more than he is being given due credit for by your biased columnist.

"
The stakes could not be higher. It is time for us to recognize that the future security and prosperity of the United States is fundamentally tied to the future of the Americas. If we don't turn away from the policies of the past, then we won't be able to shape the future. The Bush Administration has offered no clear vision for this future, and neither has John McCain.

So we face a clear choice in this election. We can continue as a bystander, or we can lead the hemisphere into the 21st century. And when I am President of the United States, we will choose to lead.

It's time for a new alliance of the Americas. After eight years of the failed policies of the past, we need new leadership for the future. After decades pressing for top-down reform, we need an agenda that advances democracy, security, and opportunity from the bottom up. So my policy towards the Americas will be guided by the simple principle that what's good for the people of the Americas is good for the United States. That means measuring success not just through agreements among governments, but also through the hopes of the child in the favelas of Rio, the security for the policeman in Mexico City, and the answered cries of political prisoners heard from jails in Havana."

The rest of his actual speech can be found here. I think if you will read it, you will find that your reference author has filtered it through a pretty sour filter, straining out an altered version and leaving behind what was best about it, for reasons which only he can explain to you.

But unless you take the trouble to understand the source materials, do me a favor and don't just flog these piss-poor altered versions of sour interpretation around. Stick to what is actually being communicated, assuming you can understand it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:29 AM

Amos..I have read the speech in its entirity.

John Pilger describes Obama's rhetoric as "vacuous" and I tend to agree with him.

Of course, if you haven't yet discovered the beauty of "politicspeak" it must be easy to come to the wrong conclusion...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:57 AM

BtW Amos, John Pilger is not "my biased columnist." He is without doubt the finest investigative journalist around.

If you had taken the time to read both articles, you would have discovered that since the early sixties he has studied American politics,interviewing most of the important political figures from then till now.

John Pilger's comparison of Obama and Robert Kennedy (a man he knew well) is most illuminating.

Perhaps if the US had some commentators of the stature of John Pilger, the American public would not be so politically ignorant, or so politically powerless...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:22 AM

That partly explains why I like Obama, ake... I was working in Robert Kennedy's campaign when he was assasinated...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,triangle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:17 PM

"the finest investigative journalist around"?

You should read more

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:43 PM

That's interesting Bobert, must have been quite an experience.
Have you read the Obama Kennedy article? If so what did you think?

If you don't want to comment on the thread, I would be interested to hear your opinion by PM.


Guest...I think most people who think about politics would place John Pilger in the top half dozen IJ's, whether they agree with him or not.

Maybe you would like to post a few names for comparison?

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:11 PM

Well, maker up your mind, man. IS it vacuous, or is it militant and expansionist?? I see neither quality in his speeches.

I personally feel you and your esteemed referent are reading the speeches of some imaginary substuitute. I see neither of those qualities in his political rhetoric. And rhetoric it what it is; but it is an order of magnitude better rhetoric than we've seen in a long time. It has a breath of fresh air in it, which perhaps your jaded sensibilities don't detect.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:27 PM

Well I do agree Amos, as you don't seem to get much political "fresh air" in the USA, your palate must be very sensitive indeed.

But the vacuous tripe eminating from Mr Obama is yesterday's fish as far a we in the UK are concerned.

WE were informed of the new political dawn by Mr Blair over a decade ago. Unfortunately for us it was another false dawn smeared by war-mongering and sleaze.

As john says "The "truly exciting and historic moment in US/UK history" will only occur when the game itself is challenged"

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:09 PM

Just because the legislation you refer to, Bobert, is considered "progressive" by progressives, doesn't make it good legislation my friend. We don't need ANOTHER damn federal agency. We've got too many of them as it is.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

Yes we do, Doug... We desperately need a Department of Peace... We can't afford all these wars... Plus, they are stupid...

But I still think the world of ya', Dougie, even if you are a knothead...Now come on over here and get a big hug, big guy...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:11 PM

Ake:

I see--once burned, twice shy, eh? I knew you rbitterness had to stem from something other than Obama himself. So you've learned that all betrayal in politics is carried on the back of rhetoric; and therefore, obviosuly, all rhetoric, especially good rhetoric, is treachery in disguise.

A very hard lesson to learn, and one I refuse to internalize. I know better than to by any rhetoric literally, but the sincerity of it remains to be seen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:48 PM

My burning came long before Blair Bush or Obama arrived on the scene Amos. I am now immune from their lies.
But they are still the same puppets who spoke of freedom and democracy and killed millions in another war far away.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:54 PM

Ake....Obviously there are still those who are counting the flock of pigs flying up above. They just don't get it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:37 PM

I wish you both the greatest success with your carefully nourished cynicism. I just hope that success stays private. I do not have jade or cynicism as an option. I find it too hopeless, too bitter, to be a possible course of action.





A

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:05 PM

Necessity is the mother of invention!

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:23 PM

ake,

Yeah, I read both of John Pilger's pieces and he reminds me of Lyndon LaRouche... He makes some sense and then blows the crap outta his credibility by repeating screwed up stuff...

First of all, if RFK was that much in support (privately) of the Vietnam War then it's strange that the only person who seems to know this is John Pilger...

But a little closer to home... Pilger's statement that Obama has threatened to bomb Pakistan couldn't have been better written by John McCain's PR team... This isn't what Obama said...

When I catch someone lieing I find it hard to believe the rest of the stuff they say and I think that John Pilger has, at the very least, stretched the truth beyond recognition in the 2 examples I have given...

Now, to wit:

Do I know that Obama is the stelth candidate who will be the 2nd coming or FDR??? I don't know??? Probably not but my gut feeling is that he can help the country at this point in time by restoring some level of civility... The US has become a very uncivilized nation and we ain't gonna change anyhting if we can't "get along" a tad better... Obama will do that better than McCain since McCain hasn't done anything but use the same ol' dirty tricks on Obama and Obama has, for the most part, held himself to a higher standard...

Now back to Pilger... I'm sure he's a regular guy and all but hie asserions that the US is in the middle of half a dozen secret wars is a tad hard to buy...

So, bottom line... There are tons of cynicism out there and Pilger is, IMO, playin' to the cynics... Hey, I'm a cynic so I can understand what he's up to but I am also a pragmatist on looking at the best-case-scenerio for the next administartion and it ain't gonna be pretty... The US has been all but buried by Bush and his corrupt cronies and Bush and Co. may have done so much famage that it may take a couple decades to fix their messes...

As for the last gasp for liberalism??? Yeah, okay... Maybe, maybe not... Depends on definitions... If liberal means endless wars and nation building then count me out... That might have beeen liberal at one point in time but it ain't liberal now... If liberal mean talkin' with yer adversaries then, yeah, that form of liberalism might be around for a long, long time as war is no longer a luxary this planet can afford to wage...

Yeah, guess it boils down to credibility and definations with Pilger and I'll confess to having never heard of the guy but from reading the two op-eds that you posted I think the guy needs to quit catering to the cynics...

That's the way I read him...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:30 PM

Amos...In reality you are the pessimist and I the optimist.
Do you really think any good can come from persevering with the status quo?
Do you think humanity can even survive another century as we gouge and bite one another like rats in a cage?

I see a future for our species, but first we must dismantle the monsterous machine we have spent the last three hundred years constructing. A machine which enslaves 99% of our people.

As I've said many times, it won't be quick and it won't be easy,but we must make a start by trying to understand how the machine works, what it does to us and how best to undertake the demolition.

Subject: RE: BS: Unity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:32 PM

You backed up nothing...just with other opinions...what's that??