BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:25 PM

I'll tell you what isn't a "right". The insurance companies do not have a right to take people's money without giving them something of value in return. The customer does have a right to expect something of value in return for their money.

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:28 PM

I'm in total agreement with you Carol - this really stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:51 PM

Message to MG - do you really believe the big (or little) corporaton you work for will base their decision on outsourcing overseas on whether Marty in accounts payable (or whatever department you work at)got a good review or not! Do you think they give a rat's ass on your existance and well being? Get real guy, your time for the pink slip could be heading your way. Then what would you do for medical insurance?

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: frogprince
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:14 PM

Of course Martin's big corporation, and it's benefits, are rock solid, unlike some little fly-by-night operation like Enron which people were foolish to sign on with...

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: heric
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:24 PM

Carol: One of the problems with health insurance is that it does not have many characteristics of a "real" insurance product, in which the cost of real future risk is spread out by mutiple subscribers. It is, instead, more like a reimbursement structure for health care services, which we have all bought into. Yes, it stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:47 PM

Ya know what? If the governemnt were to just provide "catasthopic insurance" to evertone, the health insurance industry would be dead in 6 months... I mean it... SAnd that would be an affordable program.... The health insurance industry depends on people being afraid of losing one's life's accumulated assests... Nuthin more than that... Most folks have such high dedeuctibles that they never get much from their insurance companies...Mine was $2000 a year fir each of us.... So I never got much, if anything, outta the bums... If I knew that the governemnt would pick up any real biggies, like stuff over $10,000, I would fired Anthem, and set up a personal savings account fir the nickle and dime stuff....

This system is rigged to make the health insurance industry happy. When was the last time you heard about one of them going bust? Like never. Why? Well, they are awash in our cash, that's why...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:40 PM

Carol: One of the problems with health insurance is that it does not have many characteristics of a "real" insurance product, in which the cost of real future risk is spread out by mutiple subscribers. It is, instead, more like a reimbursement structure for health care services, which we have all bought into. Yes, it stinks.

Why is it structured in this way?


Even the socialistic idea of universal healthcare sounds good on the surface but look at Canada....I read a story a few weeks back about people having to stand in long lines and waiting weeks and weeks to see a doctor and to have tests done.

Mr. Hubby, my husband is Canadian. He's been in the US for about six years. I asked him if he experienced any significant difference between his access to medical care in Canada, and what he has access to here in the US with Blue Cross, Blue Shield. He said his access under both systems has been about the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 05 - 11:11 PM

Yeah, CarolC, the health insurance lobby spends millions and millions of dollars (all extracted from the working class) on PR firms than propagate myths about just how bad health care is in every other developed nation....

Problem is, they are myths and not based on fact... Oh yeah, someone can come in with some "case" example but cases do not tell the collective story....

Bottom line, when I had insurance I would wait a coupke weeks fir tests... I wouold wait to see my doctor...

Face it, if yer a member of the American working class, yer gonna have to wait to get health care no matter how good the insurance...

You think Dick Cheney waits? You think George Bush waits? You think Tom DeLay waits.... That's what I'm talkin' about.... Everyone else waits... Jus like in Canada but atleast in Canada they don't get the double screwin' when the drug companies come looking fir yer wallet...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:04 AM

Bobert: Do you have reason to believe, had you required medical services prior to their dropping you, that Anthem would have refused to pay the bills? Did you make any use of Anthem Insurance prior to them dropping you?

Maybe it is not a total $60,000 loss if your claims prior to them dropping you were honored by the company.

Did Anthem provide you with a reason for dropping you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:05 AM

Bobert said they dropped his and his wife's policy when she was diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome. I'd say that's pretty much exactly the same thing as refusing to pay her medical bills. Only distinction is that they refused to pay by dumping Bobert and the P-Vine's insurance policy prior to refusing to pay. Bobert also said that they didn't get very much benefit from the policy prior to his wife's diagnosis because their expenses mostly didn't exceed the deductible.

I'd certainly be interested to know how you would have felt, DougR, if your insurance company had dropped you and your wife upon learning about the illness that killed her instead of paying that million dollars of her medical bills that you say they paid. Had they done that, a lot of other people's premiums would probably be lower, and you would most likely be financially destitute as well as deeply in debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: Kaleea
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:50 AM

I was rear-ended 4 yrs ago March 19th (but who's counting), injured, can no longer work, & almost a year ago finally got disability but the medical does not kick in till July of this year. I am without medical, as I have been most of the time since the accident. Because of the antiquainted laws of Kansas, I am virtually a pauper now. Some of this is also due to the vast welfare reform @ 10 yrs back. Congress is trying to make sure that people like me do not get a buck until absolutely the last minute.   Also, bush decided to make it so that lawsuits are cut down to a minute little bit because lawsuits were "getting out of hand." Then, I will have to prove that I am still disabled every 3-4 years or so. So does a friend of mine who was born with spina bifida, who has non-working little bitty legs & is paralyzed for the most part. Makes alot of sense for the gov't to pay for a Dr. appt. for him every 3-4 years to prove he's still disabled, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:33 AM

Yeah, sure, Doug, during the last 10 years Anthem paid out about $10,000 in claims, mostly perscription drugs... Problem is that I paid them $70,000 during that same period of time... Accordin' to the Wes Ginny Slide Rule Iz out about $60,000 in the deal...

But on a brighter side, the pharmacist at Leesburg Pharmacy, bless his heart, who has been mixin' up this estrogen cream fir the P-Vine for the last couple of years upon discoverin' that we are cancelled just handed her a couple months supply and said "Have a nice day."

And "on a brighter side, part 2" I take aciphex for heartburn and when I told my doctor that I was cancelled she said she'd give me rwo months worth if samples fir free...

Now we ain't giving up but one of P-Vine's friends who has an insursance company says that if we loose the appeal our chances of getting another policy that's worth a danged with another compnay is slim to none...

Welcome to George Bush's America...

And Carol is right, Doug. Had your late wife's insurance company been Anthem you wouldn't have the time to play here in Mudville. You'd be workin' a cash register at Home Depot or collecting shopping carts at the local grocery store... Oh, you think you could get yer old cushy jobs back? Go look in the mirror and think again...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 May 05 - 09:08 AM

This is so outrageous that it made me physically sick. Personally I think Bobert's taking it pretty well - I'd be sorely tempted to go postal. This is so blatant, so criminal, so over the top. You pay the premiums faithfully in the expectation that you will be covered if you are sick. You are diagnosed with a possible illness and then you are dropped. What's the point in having insurance??? Not only are you now not insured, once you've been dropped good luck finding another company that will take you on. For the self righteous who say that the way to go is to work for a big corporation so you can get insurance I would say 1) There aren't enough jobs in corporate America to go around for everybody and 2) Wake up - companies are finding ways to not pay benefits - hiring people "part time", hiring "long term temps". It is unbelievable and disgusting that Americans are meekly accepting this state of affairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:25 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: GUEST,Don Firth (hinky computer)
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:29 PM

In 1976, before they banned smoking there, while working for a radio station I got up from the broadcast board to riffle through the records and the rubber tip of my forearm crutch landed on a piece of cellophane from a cigarette package that someone had carelessly dropped on the floor instead of putting it in the waste basket. I slipped, landed on the floor, and came up with a very sore knee. The knee swelled up real good, and the following day I had to go to my quack and have about 20 ccs. of fluid drained from the joint. Very sore, and I had to stay off of it for several days.

My doctor submitted the bill to my insurance company (Blue Cross at the time). Blue Cross responded very quickly. "Sorry, we don't cover things like that." So I asked myself, "Then why am I paying them $90.00 a month?" [Remember, this was back in 1976.] I asked Bob MacDonald, the station's program director, if the station had insurance for accidents that happen on the premises. He said they did, so no problem. But he went on to say that in his dealings with Blue Cross, he had found that they customarily send out a form letter saying "We don't cover that," even when it is clearly stated in the policy that they do. Under the hope that, like so many people, you haven't actually read the policy, they just run it up the flag pole, and if you salute, they're off the hook. "Go out to their office," he said, "and in their reception room where people can hear you, politely raise a little hell. I think you'll see a quick change of tune."

I did as he suggested. There were several people waiting in the reception room, so I walked up to the desk and presented the lady there with the letter, then said, not overly loud, but loud enough so everyone in the reception room could hear me, "If you folks don't cover things like this, then why am I paying you $90.00 a month?" She turned pale, looked around shifty-eyed, and hustled me down the hall and into a small cubicle. A few moments later, another woman came in. I showed her the letter and asked the same question. She said, "Oh! This is a mistake! A clerical error. Of course this is covered. My sincere apologies, Mr. Firth. We'll get a check off to your doctor immediately. Again, my apologies, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding."

The following day when I went to the station, I told Bob what had happened. "I thought so," he said. "You've got to watch the bastards every minute or they'll screw you right, left, and center."

A single payer system with full coverage would end all this nonsense. And it would be one helluva lot less expensive for everyone. But to some, that smacks of socialism, and they'd rather you simply curl up and die than even look in that direction.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:35 PM

seems to me a military, a road system and fire and police departments smack of socialism too Don....funny old world, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: jpk
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:52 PM

as reagen said,in this crisis,the gov't ain't going to fix the problem.the gov't is the damn problem.       one little reason the ins.bit is so screwed up,is all the rules that unclesam made up,that they have to play by.of course they are the ones that asked uncle sam to make up most of the rules in the first place.then uncle finished screwing it for them.but don't forget job creation. the idoits,made work[call it make work,i.e.work that is not really needed to be done]for a lot of bean counters an paper pushers.    ps i think mg must be one of these,if he works and really isn't on the dole himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:12 PM

as reagen said,in this crisis,the gov't ain't going to fix the problem.the gov't is the damn problem.       one little reason the ins.bit is so screwed up,is all the rules that unclesam made up,that they have to play by.of course they are the ones that asked uncle sam to make up most of the rules in the first place

Which rules, specifically, are you suggesting are the cause of the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer semi-functional)
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:47 PM

Reagon's little bumper sticker that says that "government doesn't solve problems, government is the problem" is not some kind of universal axiom, nor is it even partially true, although conservatives are very fond of quoting it. For a distressing number of people, a good bumper sticker, no matter how erroneous, seems to replace the necessity of thinking.

Anyway, with reasonable regulation, the way Bobert's insurance company is screwing him over would not happen. And insurance companies are not the only entities that need some kind of government oversight. Remember Enron? When private companies that supply essential services such as unilities, infrastructure, law enforcement, and health care run amok, some kind of regulation is essential for the protection of everyone. That's not socialism, that's just the kind of good government that the Constitution mandates when it says that one of the duties of government is to assure the general welfare.

Here are a couple of items that might shed some light on just how bizarre the American health care system has become:

Such diagnostic devices as CAT and MRI scanning machines cost millions of dollars per unit. In countries with relatively up-to-date health care like Canada, most of Europe, and much of Asia, including Thailand and Indonesia, if one hospital in a particular area has a CAT or MRI scanner, nearby hospitals send patients needing diagnostic scans to that hospital. This is a simple and reasonable way to do it. With one machine in the area that can be used by all, the overall cost of health care is kept down.

How this is paid for depends on the health care payment system in each country, but with a single-payer system such as many enlightened countries have, neither the hospital nor the patient need concern themselves. The system covers it. Yes, taxes are relatively high, but proportionally, in relation to income, the share of an average individual's tax that goes to support health care is far less than what a similar individual in the United States (or his or her employer) has to pay in the form of health insurance premiums. And everyone, man, woman, child, employed or unemployed, is covered. Incidentally, with a single payer system, the reduction of paperwork alone saves billions. God knows, a serious illness is bad enough without it putting someone (and often their family) so deep in debt that they will never get out.

But in the United States, competition fever and profit motive are such that if one hospital in a particular area has a CAT or MRI scanner, all the other hospitals in the area feel that they have to have one too. So they all buy them, and since they have to be paid for, they use them for everything from brain tumors to hangnails, not only charging the patient for its use, but raising the fees for all kinds of care that take place at that hospital. As a result of this kind of unnecessary and expensive duplication of facilities, health care costs go sky-high, and insurance companies raise their premiums accordingly (of course, since they are private, for-profit companies, they add a substantial mark-up to sweeten their own profit margin). Finally, adequate health care becomes prohibitively expensive for the uninsured individual, and even group health insurance rates have become so expensive that many employers who customarily include health care in their benefits package find that they, too, can no longer afford to insure their employees.

Three small anecdotal bits, but they illustrate how insane incidental charges have become in American hospitals these days. In two of these, the amounts are minuscule, but it shows the attitude that prevails in our profit-oriented system. A nickel here, a dime there:

1) A few years ago, my quack decided that my blood pressure was elevated to the point where he felt I needed to control it, so he prescribed a beta blocker. Okay, fine. With a low dose of the beta blocker, my blood pressure currently hovers around 120/70. No sweat. Now, five years ago I broke a leg badly, had to have surgery on it, and spend three weeks in a hospital.   While I was there, Barbara brought me my little plastic pill bottle containing my beta blocker prescription. I had to fight with a doctor and a couple of nurses who insisted that, rather than allowing me to administer them to myself as I had been doing for a couple of years, they had to dole them out to me--and charge me $8.00 a day to give me my own goddam pills!! I got very loud about it, and they eventually decided to drop the matter, lest I get even louder. By taking charge myself, I save (my insurance company) $176.00. Not a great deal compared to the total bill, but it all adds up, and it was ridiculous on the face of it.

2) During that stay in the hospital (surgery for a broken femur, remember, followed by rehabilitation), my insurance company also got charged for a $300.00 brain scan. One afternoon I mentioned to the rehabilitation physician that I had a headache. Now I knew it was simple muscular tension brouight on by stress (understandable, under the circumstances)--I could feel it in the back of my neck. Without blinking an eye (or offering me an $8.00 aspirin), she sent me down for a brain scan. The technician found that a) I did have a brain (contrary to what a few here may believe); and b) there was nothing at all abnormal. Totally unnecessary.

3) A good friend and fellow frequenter of Mudcat recently had a hip operation. Prior to going into the operating room, the doctor, to make sure there were no embarrassing screw-ups, handed him a ball-point pen and asked him to mark the appropriate hip, which he did. Later, when he went over the bill item by item (which not everyone bothers to do), he discovered that the doctor had charged his insurance company $8.00 (Yup. It seems that $8.00 is the minimum charge for any little incidental in a hospital) for the use for an 89 cent disposable Bic. And he handed the pen back to the doctor, so for the eight bucks, he didn't even get to keep it!

By the way, Seattle and environs have many hospitals, several of them quite large. I live in an area about a dozen blocks from an area that is so densely packed with hospitals, clinics, and health centers that it is often referred to locally as "Pill Hill." I understand that there are more MRI and CAT scanners in and around the city of Seattle than there are in all of Canada. Not that Canada has any scarcity of them.

And don't get me started on the obscene profits made by the pharmaceutical companies and their "people be damned, get the money!" philosophy. I used to know a fellow who worked for a pharmaceutical distributor . He told me what some over-the-counter drugs really cost. For example, a popular, brand-name analgesic. 98 cents per thousand, sold in "economy size" plastic bottles for $16.00 per hundred. With similar or even greater percentage profit margins on the much more expensive prescription drugs.

Stay healthy!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: jpk
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:07 PM

oh boy;enron,it should have never been in the first place.like so many such [outfits]they did not make anything,distribute anything,etc.they were speculaters,buying so much of something at a time latter on,to sell later on at a profit,during a time of short supply,made short by companys such as there's buying up the supply to sell to the most desperate bidders,i.e. they worked like most worthless commodes traders

Subject: RE: BS: Now 45,000,002 Uninsured....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:09 PM

Wonderful examples, Don, of the waste and insanity of the current US health system. None of this benefits anyone except those with a vested interest in keeping things exactly as-is; it's certainly no better for doctors and nurses than it is for patients ~ and everyone is a potential patient!

Even the actuaries and accountants and executives who expect to make comfortable livings administrating healthcare-related paperwork should be relatively safe even in the case of effective reform ~ most of 'em anyway. A lot of lower-level clerks will be put out of work by a more efficient system, of course, and will have to find something else to do; more significantly, sales of hugely expensive equipment and plenty of pharmaceuticals will probably go way down. The sharks who make huge profits on these enterprises would have to suck it up for a quarter or two or three while looking for another way to print money for themselves.

The question is: why should the interests of so few already-privileged citizens take precedence over the general welfare of the entire nation?

The answer is: They spend obscenely large amounts of money (money the rest of us pony up when we need medical services) on lobbying Congress and on influencing the mass media. It has nothing to do with socialism vs capitalism, and everything to do with greed and lies.