BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:20 PM

So, according to these calculations 9/11 X (a chilling) 66.66 ad infinitum would balance things out.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM

C. Ham - I haven't read anywhere that Tarek Fatah (or anyone else) referred to these criminals as Islamic Terrorists. In fact, the assistant director of CSIS (in the same article) say, "It is important to know that this operation in no way reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada,"

The other article profiles the individuals and does indicate that some of them are Islamic but does not factually state that they are all Islamic. They were, apparently, engaged in terrorist activities. The assumption is, of course, that they are Islamic terrorists but Canada is very careful about blaming a specific cultural group for the criminal activity of a few.

Thats the difference between the Canadian perspective and the red-necked, American perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:09 PM

D'van, CarolC, Jeri: It must be driving you all to distraction that no one has said anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

Here we have a thread about the arrest of Islamic terrorists in Ontario and CarolC is trying to change the subject to the American war in Iraq.

Meanwhile Dianavan is trying to spin us that there is no absolute proof that every single one of the Islamic terrorists is a Moslem.

So mudcattingly predictable those two.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:48 PM

yes, thankfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:52 PM

The linked articles that I read, excluding a couple of videos that take an extremely long time to load on my connection, were all quite careful to identify those arrested as "Canadian Citizens or Residents" and to note only that the organization with which they are accused of being associated was apparently "Al-Qaeda inspired." Some, but not all, noted that they were predominately persons with "Arabic sounding names." At least one item did state that "the organization" had made public claims of being "Al-Qaeda inspired," but did not provide a citation to verify that offhand(?) statement.

The step to referring to those arrested as "Islamic Terrorists" was perhaps too casually taken, but hardly merits, at this time, any accusation of "racism" or even of "nationalism."

While the bitter arguments about "who's da worst and baddest" seem to be unavoidable here, they seem to have little purpose other than the stoking and stroking of egos, most of which are well known to us all.

What is significant is that the explosive materials found do indicate nefarious purpose. The absence of other expected materials does, perhaps, indicate that the alleged "plan" was at an early stage.

For anyone who might want to assess exactly what was found, it should be pointed out that the "3 tonnes" of fertilizer was uniformly reported as metric tonnes which is slightly different than 3 times what was used in the Oklahoma bombing. Given the innacuracy of such "new estimates," it probably doesn't make much difference, but a "metric ton" is a bit over 2,200 lb, while a US ton, in common usage is 2,000 lb. (And according to the SI agreement, it is metric ton and NOT metric tonne, even if you're French, but newspersons wouldn't know that.)

In a single explosion, that amount of ammonium nitrate would produce a blast possibly as large as in the Oklahoma bombing, but probably not a great deal larger. In Oklahoma, a substantial diesel fuel boost was used, and would be necessary for an effective application of this large an amount of fertilizer as an explosive in a single attack.

This may be taken as an indication that the suspects had not completed their preparations and additional materials were intended to be procured later, that additional materials they would have been expected to have are still "at large" elsewhere, or that they're a pretty amateur bunch of nuts. Take your pick, if you wish; but it won't matter much which you choose until further information on the arrests and results of the ongoing investigation and charges is available.

About the only thing that is certain is that it's unlikely anyone would have legitimate reason to possess that amount of fertilizer unless they were planning a "community garden" encompassing at least a few thousand acres of vacant urban lots with very bad soil.

Beyond the quibble (and it is a small one) about the comparisons between what this band planned and what was done in Oklahoma, I believe I'll wait for additional information before forming opinions.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

Dianavan,

Maybe you should check with the Muslim Canadian Congress. They seem to think that the Ontario terrorists are Muslim.

From the front page of the Muslim Canadian Congress website:

In a statement released today, the MCC said the Muslim Canadians are in a state of shock to learn that young members of their community would contemplate carrying our terror attacks on fellow citizens.

"Thank God these men were stopped before they could carry out their alleged plot," said Niaz Salimi, President of the MCC.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 05:09 PM

D'van, CarolC, Jeri: It must be driving you all to distraction that no one has said anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada.

Why would it do that, heric? And why do you assume that dianavan, Jeri, and I all hold the same opinions on this subject, and speak as one? And where have I indicated that I thought anyone was saying anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada?

Come on... you're a lawyer. If I've done it, I'm sure you can produce the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 05:56 PM

Heric, why do you think I'd be driven 'to distraction' because 'no one has said anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada'? What do you think I'm about and why?

I like looking for truth. I think these guys would call themselves Moslems. I think anybody who would blow people up is a terrorist, and I think all terrorists are extremists. I believe Al Qaeda and their ilk are to Islam as the Ku Klux Clan is to Christianity. It's my impression that people are looking at a news story and trying so hard to find some nit-picky thing to fight about that they don't try to see any other possible reasons to talk about this issue.

Personally, I don't see that much to argue about here. It's a friggin' news story and facts are going to keep emerging.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 06:25 PM

Here's an interesting article...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1845&ncid=1845&e=1&u=/cpress/20060604/ca_pr_on_na/terror_arrests_backlash

I had been thinking the way the whole thing was staged looked a lot like Harper trying to look like Bush. But then I though, nahhhh... Canadians would see right through that.

I didn't know about the important Supreme Court decision that's coming up in about a week.

Canadians, I suggest you get ready for an "interesting" next few years (or however long Harper is in office... which could be a very long time, if your right-wing tries the same kind of election tactics that our right-wing guys have been using the last couple of elections. I think Mr. Harper has been taking lessons from someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 07:17 PM

I just think an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship is an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship, that's all. Nothing to fear. Nothing to dance around.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:03 PM

That's nice, heic. Still don't know what your point is, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:05 PM

...or what it's got to do with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:03 PM

Okay already Carol I'll bite!

Why (why EXACTLY) did you ask the question: "What do you consider to be particularly 'Islamic' about the name - 'Saad Khalid', C-Ham?"

C-Ham never said that name - YOU picked it out of a list for, I assume, a specific and logical purpose and, after picking that name, you then needed to ask a question that was ONLY a question.


You know what else? I'll bet most of those marines in Haditha were WASP yankees just as I am. I'll bet you wouldn't mind me making that assumption and carrying on a conversation on that basis. Things are what they are. It may suck for Arab Muslims that some Arab Muslims kill innocent defenseless children, just as it sucks for me that some WASP yankees kill innocent defenseless children. It's fine to be alert for hidden bias in one's own thinking, but still, things are what they are!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:12 PM

While you're answering questions, could you answer mine? I'd like to understand what I said that got me included in the group.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM

aaarghh.

Yours is quite tangential. You said: "I'd guess the 'Islamic' bit was something he read into it. . . "

I can grant you a waiver.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:20 PM

I read the news today oh boy...

Some interesting points that have emerged are that some of the accused have been under surveillance since 2004, and it seems the whole plot such as it was was rather thoroughly compromised.

Two of those charged have been resident in the Kingston Pen since last fall, when they each received a two-year sentence for gun-smuggling. So it's curious that they'd be included as conspirators in an ongoing plot.

It was also suggested that police agents were involved in purchasing the 3 tons of ammonium nitrate for the group. Pretty interesting tactic--suggesting, rightly or not, that police and CSIS felt they had the situation under control.

The only charges I've seen are "membership in a terrorist group" and "engaging in terrorist training". Not "conspiracy to commit" type charges, at least not yet.

Stephen Harper's comments have been typical of him. He likes to echo things GW Bush has said in the past, in this case "they hate our freedoms". Harper is apparently unaware that Bush's credibility, inasmuch as he ever had any, is way in the past too.

Somehow I'm not getting the impression that these alleged terrorists were masters of terror and guerilla fighting--more like a farm team of a farm team.

Having said that, though, I think that all in all I'm happy with how the police operation went, from the information provided thus far. It's the first time in this country that a "terrorist roundup" has not almost immediately turned into a bunch of smoke and mirrors, resulting in a few scared students with expired visas being deported amid embarrassing questions about what happened to the "bust of the century" that was promised.

Nobody got hurt, and there will be court cases to show us what it is really about. It's reasonable to expect our tolerant society will continue to be so--we're not freaking out with colour-coding our calendars and duct-taping our windows.

And I don't really believe the upcoming Supreme Court decision on security certificates is connected...these guys are facing charges, no "security certificates" are needed to keep them locked up.

It won't influence the Supreme Court anyway, they're a stubborn bunch.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

I'm getting a little concerned about you, heric. You don't seem quite yourself here in this thread. Not quite as observant or quick on the uptake as you usually seem to be.

I'll explain it s l o w l y for you.

First of all, C Ham said this...

And if you check the link with the list of the terrorists, they all have Islamic names.

So I did what s/he suggested and I checked the link with the list of names.

I saw a few that as far as I could tell were not necessarily "Islamic".


Now, I refer you to my 03 Jun 06 - 03:58 PM post, in which I said this...

I'm not suggesting that they are not Muslims. I just find statements like the one about the "Islamic names" to be problematic. If one is only going by the names, that could very well be an erroneous assumption. There have been terrorist attacks in the Middle East that have been committed by Christians, for instance. And I have been able to find at least one person with the name Khalid who is an Iraqi Christian...

- here -

However, if the suspects themselves have said that they are Muslims, we are probably more safe in assuming that they are in fact Muslims.

I have NEVER said that I didn't think they were Muslims. I only made a point, a quite valid one, in my opinion, that names are not good indicators of a person's religion. I do not at this time, have an opinion about whether or not they are Muslims, nor do I feel any need to form an opinion about that matter at this time. I have not articulated any opinion about it, and I have no intention of doing so at this point in time.

Now, I notice that there are a few men on this thread who were arguing the point that you have attributed to me, and that I was NOT arguing.

I also notice that you have lumped me in together with two women, one of whom I think is trying to make the point you are attributing to us, and one who doesn't appear to be making that point. So you have tried to impose your idea of what we are thinking and trying to say onto us, when, in fact, you are quite wrong about it in my case, and you appear to be wrong about it in Jeri's case as well, and you appear to believe that we have some kind of "hive" mentality in which we share a brain or something, rather than holding our own individual thoughts.

And then you took a snipe at us for something that at least two of us have NOT said, but that others in the thread about whom you have NOT made any snide comments, in fact HAVE said.

So what's up with that, heric? You on the rag or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:34 PM

If, you, me, Jeri, and dianavan were settlers in a covered wagon in High Plains Drifter, and we pulled into the town after they had painted it all red, I would say: "They painted that town red."

Then we'd start arguing all to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:38 PM

Only because you would (apparently) be telling us what we think, heric.

If you don't do that, I don't really have much of a disagreement with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:52 PM

Heric, that ("all to hell") is funny...

I did say that. He did read the 'Islamic' bit into it, but after reading a more, I agreed.   I'm not one of those people who realizes she's wrong but just keeps arguing because it's better to look like a complete idiot holding one's ground than back down and admit learning something.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:27 AM

heric - When CSIS goes out of their way to emphasize that it is not about a specific cultural group, they have a pretty good reason. The reason (I suspect) is that they do want to deal with the hate crimes that are committed when the media (and others) start pointing the finger at groups of people that have absolutely nothing to do with the criminal activity.

Surely you can see the folly of stereotyping groups of people, especially when it often leads to crimes committed against innocents.

But then again, maybe you've been in the States for so long some of that red-necked mentality is rubbing off on you. (Hows that for a stereotype?) At least my stereotyping is not going to lead to hate crimes against red-necks or Americans.

Are you going to accept any responsibility when the hate mongers start destroying mosques or harming innocent men, women and children who happen to be Muslim? Of course not.

As far as labelling them as terrorists, lets wait and see. I don't see any charges relating to committing a terrorist act.

Seems to me that all but two of the men are in their teens and early twenties and , "Two of those charged have been resident in the Kingston Pen since last fall, when they each received a two-year sentence for gun-smuggling." - Willie O

"It was also suggested that police agents were involved in purchasing the 3 tons of ammonium nitrate for the group." - Willie O

Have you ever heard of plea bargains or a set up? I'm sure you have. Why are you so quick to accuse these young men of being terrorists? Don't you believe in innocent until proven guilty? I thought you were a lawyer, not a judge.

Nothing is ever black and white, heric. Lets wait to see what they are charged with and then lets wait to see if they are guilty of terrorism.

In the meantime, I'd like to know that Canadian Muslims can walk the streets without fear of being mistaken for terrorists.

BTW - If they all painted the town red, I would want to know who "they" were before I started to point my finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:54 AM

Someone above likened this event to the boming of the Murrah bldg in Oklahoma City. The US govt's story of a fertilizer bomb doing all the damage at the Murrah Bldg in Oklahoma City is a lie. For expert explosive analysis, go here:

http://independence.net/okc/congressbombreport.htm

For video of the expert speaking, go here:

http://www.question911.com/links.php

The govt seized all the video cameras covering the time window just before the event, and FBI agents who looked at the films said two swarthy men in blue jump suits held the parking space for McVeigh, he parked the truck and they all walked away. Immediate reports advised cops to watch for a John Doe # 2. That man is named Hussain al-Hussaini, a former Iraqi soldier brought to the US by Bush # 1 along with thousands of other Iraqi operatives. They've been set up in safe houses all over the US, terrorist cells. Set up by Bush # 1. Lists of them...names and addresses...are on the web.
Hussaini was named by a local reporter as John Doe # 2 and he sued for libel. He lost on all 50 points.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31847

The Murrah building was blown by sophisticated explosives. The debris was then quickly hauled away before an analysis could be done, but there is lots of video at the question911 site about it. The local news was reporting two unexploded devices before the feds came in and put a gag on everyone. All this is public record. One of the explosive devices was a Tow missile in a locker in the BATF office, located just above the daycare center. The missile was pointed downward. It didn't go off.

Bomb units take 20 minutes to suit up in their heavy gear, yet they were on the scene one minute (in full gear) after the blast.
Paul Craig Roberts has done a lot of research on the OKC bombing:

http://www.riflewarrior.com/okc.html

Last time I heard him interviewed he said he'd concluded the bombing was indeed linked to the Clintons and Mena, Arkansas. That's where the CIA's cocaine-drop airstrip was during Clinton's long, long term as governor of that state. He protected the operation (which is why Bush #1 picked him as his reliable replacement), and there were records in the Murrah bldg that pertained to the Mena/CIA business. Clinton was president by the time of the bombing, so he ordered the records collected at the Murrah bldg and then ordered the building blown. The Feds gave up looking for survivors after half an hour and shifted to looking for records of a "national security" nature and hauled off several boxes. If all their bombs had gone off, those records would have been destroyed, but that didn't happen. So they gave up looking for wounded children and looked for Bill and Hillary's drug records instead.

Bet you never heard any of this on ABC/PBS. When the govt controls the media, it's a safe bet the people named as terrorists aren't. Only govts profit from blowing things up. If Moslems are so hell-bent on destroying Jews and America, why don't we have daily blasts in Hollywood and the diamond district of New York City?    You're just being terrorized by your govt with make-believe bogeymen. Quit feeding the bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:08 AM

I just think an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship is an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship, that's all. Nothing to fear.

I don't live my life in fear, but I do fear for the fact that terrorists, whose targets are always innocent civilians, are acquiring bombs. Think of New York City, Oklahoma City, Madrid, London, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa.

Toronto is my hometown.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM

I hope the f##kers get 20 to life. They will not fare well inside Canada's prisons. Too many of the cons have family on the outside. Reminds me of the b##tards who put bombs in mail boxes in Quebec. Some were given a free trip to Cuba. Within a decade they were begging to return. Unfortunately, we let them.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: MarkS
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:50 AM

The drug records are being hidden on the movies set in the desert where the faked Apollo moon landing was filmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

The US should withdraw from Washington DC.

Iraqi civilian deaths 27.51 per 100,000.

45 per 100,000 in Washington, D.C

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:28 PM

Is the US military killing all of those people in Washington DC, too, GUEST,Fernando? I'm outraged! I hadn't heard about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:30 PM

Hear the drums, Fernando.

"Death rate [in Iraq, from CIA Fact Book]:   
5.37 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)"

"Death rate [in USA, from CIA Fact Book]:   
8.26 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)"

Definitely safer to be in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:32 PM

Guest at 1:54 AM today - I agree one would not ".......hear that on ABC/PBS......." As pathetic as I believe them to be, they are still NOT in the habit of spewing false garbage such as that you seem to enjoy.

Beam me up, Scotty!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Different guest
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

And what's false about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:25 PM

Shit, Fernando, you can't even come up with your own pablum. You have to steal it from someone else (unless you're Eric Rasmusen)...

http://www.rasmusen.org/x/index.php?s=45+per+100%2C000+civilian+deaths

But you got it wrong. Eric puts the rate at 45 per 100,000 per year. And he is wrong as well.

Since you and GUEST,05 Jun 06 - 12:30 PM appear determined to change the subject and talk about Iraq here in this thread, I will go ahead and address your and his/her attempts at obfuscation...

The actual death rate of civilians in Iraq that are directly a result of the US led invasion and occupation is much closer to about 600,000 since the beginning of the invasion, more than two hundred thousand in the first 18 months alone. See this page for numbers. 200,000 comes from the Lancet survey, which Tony Blair considers to be "the most accurate survey there is"...

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_643.shtml

So that would make the death rate for civilians resulting from the war more like 765 per 100,000 per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:29 PM

The actual death rate of civilians in Iraq that are directly a result of the US led invasion and occupation is much closer to about 600,000 since the beginning of the invasion, more than two hundred thousand in the first 18 months alone. See this page for numbers. 200,000 comes from the Lancet survey, which Tony Blair considers to be "the most accurate survey there is"...

That survey was based on fewer than 100 people. Get a grip, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM

I need to rephrase my last post. I din't do a very good job with it.

Tony Blair said that the "Figures from the Iraqi Ministry of Health, which are a survey from the hospitals there, are in our view the most accurate survey there is", and the figures from the Iraqi Ministry of Health supports the Lancet survey's conclusion that most of the civilian deaths are the result of violence from coalition forces, rather than the actual numbers of civilian deaths.

The Lancet survey was based on 4300 people, not fewer than 100, GUEST. Get a grip yourself.

The Lancet people also left the region around Fallujah out of their final report. I put that number back in for the purpose of this discussion.

4300 seems like a pretty normal sample size to me. Researchers use sample sizes like that all the time. Many aspects of your daily life are determined by sample sizes like that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 02:13 PM

What's with all the Iraqis vs. Americans talk in the thread about terrorists in Ontario?

I guess CarolC and her friends can't tell the differnece between Bhagdad, Washington and Toronto. Or maybe CarolC and her friends think all Muslims are the same no matter where they are or where they're from.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 02:22 PM

...here is another opinion about the Lancet (online) article...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The once-respectable British medical journal The Lancet has produced a report claiming were destroying Iraq to save it. It says that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by coalition forces since the invasion began, most from airstrikes. The journal even admitted its findings were an October Surprise, pre-released online to sway the election across The Pond. But its conclusion will surely be employed by war opponents and Iraqi insurrectionists long after the November dust settles.

The research, led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, involved sending teams to interview 998 families in 33 allegedly randomly selected neighborhoods across Iraq. They asked how many people in each household had died and of what, then extrapolated to the nation as a whole. Thence the 100,000 figure, which they claimed was conservative. But a better word is worthless. Consider just this: The sample size was so small that the range for deaths was a humongous 8,000 to 194,000. So Roberts and friends just split the difference.
 
They admitted the sample size was small, but pleaded it was necessary because the surveyors were in constant danger. By that, they no doubt meant F-16s putting them in their crosshairs, as opposed to those jolly terrorists who routinely kidnap civilians and slowly saw off their heads with dull knifes.
 
More than that, the researchers didnt feel themselves bound by anything official, like death certificates. Interviews were just fine. In the Iraqi culture it was unlikely for respondents to fabricate deaths, they wrote.
 
Such faith in the honesty of Iraqis is truly touching. But these are the people who gave us Baghdad Bob and are regularly quoted saying that once again a U.S. airstrike killed only innocents. Its as if American had developed a chip for its weapons that zeroes in strictly on women, children, and old men.
 
Cluster sampling can be valid if it uses reliable data, rather than on inherently unreliable self-reporting. But it can also be easily skewed by picking out hotspots -- like determining how much of a nations population wears dentures by surveying only nursing homes.
 
In fact, intentionally or otherwise, thats pretty much what The Lancet did. Most of the clusters had no deaths whatsoever. But heres the real bombshell: Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja, the journal reported. Thats it; game over; report worthless.
 
But why stop there? Consider also that 98,000 deaths during the time in question averages out to over 180 daily. Have you heard anyone claim we killed anywhere near that number on one day, much less every day? Even the insurrectionists wouldnt try to pull that off. They left it to The Lancet.
 
Consider also that even various self-styled human-rights groups have proclaimed the Lancet numbers outlandish. The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting, Marc Garlasco, told the Washington Post. These numbers seem to be inflated. Garlasco is senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which has repeatedly been a thorn in the Pentagons side during the Iraq war.
 
The overtly anti-war group www.iraqbodycount.com estimates about 14,000-16,000 deaths since the war began. It cautions that its data rely solely on press reports, but considering how the Iraqis like to pad body counts this means its own figures are certainly too high.
 
Finally, consider that The Lancet researchers are far from disinterested observers. I was opposed to the war and I still think that the war was a bad idea, Roberts admitted to the Associated Press. "As an American, I am really, really sorry to be reporting this."
 
If you think Roberts Lancet editor Richard Horton might have been a check on sloppy work or outright false propaganda, think again. "Democratic imperialism has led to more deaths not fewer", he told the BBC, proclaiming coalition efforts in Iraq a failure.
 
We thus witness the further erosion of the reputation of Britains former leading medical journal. Recently its been embarrassed by two other reports. One tied childhood vaccines to autism, but turned out to have been paid for by a trial lawyer representing children in the study. The other combined 14 studies of antioxidant supplements, of which some showed protective effects, some showed no effect, and one showed a negative effect. It thereby concluded antioxidant supplements can kill you.
 
Now The Lancet has become Al-Jazeera on the Thames.
 

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:13 PM

CarolC was the first to post about The number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation in this thread Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM but she accuses others.

And if she doesn't like that fact that I got my figures from somewhere let her go to Iraq and Washington DC and do here own stats.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:20 PM

Carol will not let facts stand in the way of an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM

If we take CarolC's number of 600,000 civilians dead since the March 2003 push to evict Saddam Hussein, we get about 527 dead each day!!! The actual number of deaths in Iraq per day (by un-natural causes) is 27. CarolC, whatever you do in the future let's hope it doesn't involve accounting.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM

"Even anti-war and anti-American groups and individuals have indicated the Lancet figure is outlandish. "These numbers seem to be inflated," due "to overcounting," Marc Garlasco, of Human Rights Watch told the Washington Post. The website www.iraqbodycount.com estimates about 14,000-16,000 deaths since the war began. The Evil One himself, bin Laden, in his pre-election video, made reference to the Iraq war and stated "over 15,000 of our people have been killed."

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:7Tq1psPFHvsJ:www.fumento.com/military/lancetscripps.html+lancet+report,+iraqi+deaths&hl=en&gl

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:37 PM

"Death comes to Iraq now in many new and terrible forms. Though there is outrage among many Iraqis about the alleged massacre in Haditha last November, the violence on Iraq's streets is so unrelentingly horrific that even the worst atrocities have lost their power to shock. Few Iraqis even know how many people have died by the bullets and bombs. Definitive statistics are impossible to find in a country where the most violent provinces are out of bounds for journalists and human-rights workers, and where the state infrastructure--hospitals, morgues, police stations--is not up to the task of caring for the living, never mind counting the dead. According to the Iraq Body Count project, the most frequently cited source, at least 38,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since May 1, 2003, when President George W. Bush announced that "major combat operations" had ended. More controversially, a study in the British medical journal Lancet in November 2004 put the toll at more than 100,000 since the invasion. Both studies say more than 4 in 10 of those deaths are attributable to U.S. forces."


*****OR THAT ALMOST 6 in 10 ARE NOT attributable to U.S.forces.******

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200784-1,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:54 PM

CarolC was the first to post about The number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation in this thread Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM but she accuses others.

No I wasn't Fernando. Pay attention.

When I posted what I did about numbers of civilian deaths in Iraq, I was expanding upon something that was said by number 6, who is the one who brought that subject up.

Do try to keep up, won't you?


pdq, the Lancet study was peer reviewed. The opinion piece you posted (without attribution) came some guy (named Michael Fumento - never heard of him) with an opinion.

Actually, my figure of 600,000 was in error. I multiplied 200,000 by three (three years) instead of two (two times 18 months). So that number should have been 400,000. So that would make the per 100,000 figure for civilian deaths due to the invasion and occupation more like around 270.

But hey, they're only ragheads and sand monkeys, so why should we be concerned?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:05 PM

beardedbruce, 4 in 10, when applied to 100,000, is 40,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:31 PM

Yeah ... I'm the one who first posted regarding the civilian deaths in Iraq ... 400,000, 600,000, 3,000, 8.25, 5.23 ... all these numbers everyone is arguing about represent human lives .... sons, daughters, husbands, mothers, wifes, .... doesn't matter if it's Iraqi, American, Sudanese, Muslim, Jew, Christian .... who cares if names are Islamic .... it is becoming a hateful violent world .... humanity has been passed over by religeous, philosphical, political arrogance .... there is too much killing going on all over the world. Doesn't anyone get that anymore.

sIxI

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:41 PM

Jeeezuz .... reading through these posts is like listening to a Democrat and Republican congressmen, or senators or some fat Washington politicians aguing on Fox, or CNN .... totally oblivious to the human element ... and that is the problem ... "let's get the numbers factual" they ague.... numbers, numbers, numbers ... and the killing and hate goes on.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:50 PM

So how many die in Iraq vs Washington DC?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:33 PM

CarolC,

"According to the Iraq Body Count project, the most frequently cited source, at least 38,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since May 1, 2003, "
And another 20,000 from combat- So the US is accountable for about 35,000 "civilian casualties"- and the insurgents for the rest.

35,000 is not 400,000- the per 100,000 figure would be 23.625- too many, but close enough to Fernando's "Iraqi civilian deaths 27.51 per 100,000." And a lot less than in DC....


Feel free to argue about the significance of the numbers, but please try to use accurate numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:33 PM

Today's Toronto Star, "Leaders vow to root out extremism"

Muslim leaders say they feel a range of emotions — if allegations turn out to be true — toward the 17 men and boys accused of terrorism-related charges.

But they agree on one thing: It's time to get to the root of the problem.

Good. There is a perception by, well, me at least, that we don't hear enough from Moslems and Moslem leaders who are speaking out against terrorism. I don't know if they're just not doing anything noticable, or, much more likely, news sources in countries at war with Islamic countries aren't all that upset that people think Moslems all believe in terrorism, and don't try very hard to report what moderate Moslem religious leaders are doing to counter the extremism.

I think terrorism is a result of hatred and a lack of empathy. I'm suspiscious of those who seem to encourage hatred. We don't need more hatred. It seems to permeate every part of life these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:39 PM

'I'm suspiscious of those who seem to encourage hatred.'

Yeah. Too bad more people didn't question them when they started.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:21 PM

beardedbruce, from the website I posted a link to earlier, on the subject of Iraq Body Count...

"When President Bush recently spoke of 30,000 civilians killed in Iraq, his press secretary said that he was citing 'published reports.' Directly or indirectly, what he was probably citing was Iraq Body Count. But I Iraq Body Count's database is not intended as an estimate of total deaths. Its methodology is to record only war-related violent deaths that are reported by at least two approved international media sources. This generates a record of deaths that is accepted by the media that publish these reports in the first place. Its authors acknowledge that thousands of deaths go unreported in their database, but they say they cannot prevent politicians and the media misrepresenting their figures as an actual estimate of deaths. Iraq Body Count's 'minimum' number now stands at about 34,000."

So since the Lancet study is the only scientific study that was disigned to measure the total number of civilian deaths, and since their methodology was the same as what was used to determine the number of civilian deaths in the Balkans war, I think we can probably say that theirs is the most reliable.