BS: Its' official Bush is a moron

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:32 PM

Well, Nicole, reminds me of an old MASH episode where every day "Charlie" flys over in his old sputtering bi-plane and attempts to drop a bomb on the MASH unit and like Hawkeye gets a pool going as to how close the bomb will actually fall to the unit.

Well, since 1992, the same thing has gone on over the supposed "No Fly Zone" except in this case "Charlie" is on the ground with his 50 years old technology and fires his 50 year old gun at the menacing F-16 flying above him and bombing him and his 50 year old gun every day.

So now Junior is all bent out of shape becuase the game continues. Bottom line. The F-16's could satnd still, not fire back and give Saddam a hundred shots at it and not one would be close.

But now Junior gets up in front of the TV cameras and huffs and puffs abvout the Iragis shooting at his F-16's as if they might hit one!!!

Yeah right, Junior...

Yeah count me as being on board, Prezzy. Yeah, send my kid over there to get his butt blown up while blowin' up some Iraqi kids. Yeah,, bomb the crap out of....

And then bomb the crap out of....

And...

And...

Yeah. makes me feel real secure knowin' that we can just bomb our troubles away...

Real secure...

Yeah, like I've said before, Junior won't stop this maddness until the Amnerican people won't go to Boss Hog's malls for fear of gettin' their butts blown the heck up....

This rant? Over..

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM

Doug, did you even bother to read the excerpt I quoted? I'd love it if you answered the questions one by one...

As for MAV not being a troll, remember the definition of 'troll'? Up here in Alaska, a troller dangles bait in front of potential fish in hopes of a bite. MAV, on the one hand says the nastiest things he can formulate (Don't you LOVE his cute paraphrased names?) and on the other, seems to want his opinions to be taken seriously. If you respect his mindset and his tactics, I'm disappointed in you.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:34 PM

Darn. I suspect that should have gone to DR in a PM. Sorry.

Subject: RE: no moron here
From: Neighmond
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:44 PM

He'd like us to THINK he's a moron


He's slicker than a damnded snake and about as straight too.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 09:18 PM

I note that the troll-apologist didn't attempt to claim he wasn't a racist or a psychopath. That's progress of a sort, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 10:43 PM

Maybe he just doesn't think you're worth responding to,Greg. Or perhaps he's taking your advice to heart. At any rate, flame is not the way to destroy a Troll.
Those of you who ex[ect Mr. Blix to find anything in Iraq will likely be disappointed. A quick check of his record LAST time around shows that.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:11 AM

Ah, yes. The US is suddenly trying to undermine Blix's authority. All part of the rhetoric about not accepting the verdict of the inspectors... unless, of course, they say exactly what the US wants them to.

Of course, there was a different tune coming from the US administration in Jan of 2000, when they pushed for his appointment. A snippet from an old UN newswire Jan 27, 2000:

Some Question Blix's Resolve
Some observers criticized Blix's appointment and questioned his potential to strictly enforce UN weapons regulations on Iraq. Paul Leventhal, president of the Nuclear Control Institute, said Blix's tenure at the IAEA was marked by timidity. "I believe his track record at the IAEA suggests that he tends to bend to political will rather than come up with independent findings," Leventhal said. "That gives me real concerns as to how strong a chief inspector can be."
Under Blix's leadership, the IAEA came under fire for failing to detect Iraq's clandestine nuclear weapons program despite carrying out routine inspections of nuclear facilities. "If the approach of the IAEA is now going to guide the new commission, I think the world will have to be highly skeptical about the kind of conclusions this commission reaches," Leventhal said (Barbara Crossette, New York Times, 27 Jan).
...
But US officials praised Blix, saying he would do an excellent job leading the new commission. John Ritch, the US ambassador to the IAEA, said Blix should not be blamed for the agency's failure to detect Iraqi weapons. "To criticize Hans Blix for [Iraq's] secret nuclear program is scapegoating," Ritch said. "Blix was burned. But what he did after the Gulf War is what counts. The IAEA dismantled Iraq's nuclear program" (Crossette, New York Times).
Holbrooke also commended Blix. "We think he is an excellent choice," the US diplomat said. "We are very moved by his willingness to undertake such a difficult task at this stage in his long and illustrious career" (Reuters/CNN Interactive). ..."

Hmmm. Convenient change of tune. Which spin shall we believe today?

Personally, I'm skeptical about comparing routine inspections of a US-funded military ally (Iraq in the 80s) with a microscopic level inspection of the US's enemy of the month.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:42 AM

Ebbie: Mav's got some rough edges to some of his posts, I admit. But he may believe that's the best way to get his points across. People here say pretty much what they want to, I think, and not everyone is going to agree with them.

Yes, I read the exerpts you posted, but before I answer any of the questions posed I need to find out just who in the heck the person quoted is! I've never heard of him.

I don't know what most of the recent posts have to do with Bush being a moron anyway. Most of it is rehashed rhetric from other threads. Bobert is getting carried away with his liberal pov, but that's okay. He needs to exercise his nimble fingers on the keyboard from time to time and that's what he's doing. Nothin' new though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:03 AM

Well, speakin' of "nuthin new", Dougie, yir guy's rhetoric is getting to soundin' like a stuck record. It is so obvious that he is going to have his war come Hell or high water.

I mean, even before the inspectors he was putting out *his* conditions, many of which are arbitrary in nature, for justifictions for war.

Yeah, I know it's tiring hearing a few of us tell the same stories over and over but exactly was has changed over the last several months in your guy's drum beat? Nothin! So bare with us, Doug.

Incidently, the peace movement got a shot in the arm (not literally) yesterday with a front page article in the Washington Post about just how far it has come in such a short time and how much of the organizing is being done by folks with service aged grandchildren and not young hippies.

Hmmmmm? It may not be too late fir you to get on board, Doug. And what a great way yo meet some fun folks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:36 AM

Interesting article today in the UK press. Apparently three US Presidents have been subjected to similar comments:

Eisenhower - Allied Supreme Commander who master-minder the defeat of Nazi Germany and the liberation of Europe.

Ronald Reagan - Who brought the "Cold War" to an end and saw the collapse of Soviet Communism by showing it to be the bankrupt sham and confidence trick that it actually was.

George W Bush - Who has suceeded in making the United Nations live up to and face its responsibilities.

If all the above are/were really considered to be morons, just think what could be accomplished by men of insight and vision - whenever you guys get around to electing one. For the present I think the trio mentioned above have done a pretty good job making the world a better and a safer place.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:41 AM

Jeeze -- putting Reagan and Bush, the Doughnut Hole of the American Right in the same category as Ike is about as scurrilous and irresponsible as you can get, Teri.   Abraham Lincoln was called an idiot too. It's not a reliable litmus test.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:09 AM

And now for a musical interlude in the Bush camps...

The other day I was browsing the Web and came across a site called "The Music of the Masons". (Freemasons, that is). Curious, because I've heard that the Masons claim such illustrious members as Mozart and Beethoven, I opened the site, and guess what was on the title page. Against a backdrop of the stars and stripes, there was good ole George Bush! Along with a transcript of his address to the nation following the Sept 11 attacks.

I was a little shocked. THIS is "The Music of the Masons"? Could it be that he's neither a 'moron' or a 'mormon' but a 'mason'? Is that why the rest of the world follows his lead, like rats following the Pied Piper? Hmmmmmm, I think I'd rather be shovelling snow than pondering this too deeply!

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:56 AM

Well, GUEST, Junior is tryin' to improve his vocabulary and has started in the middle of the dictionary. Thus, lots of "m" words floating 'round him these days.

Yo, T... You really think that Ronnie Raygun was a great president? Hmmmmmm? He was a lucky president in that during his watch (and I use that term loosely...) the Soviet Union imploded. Meanwhile, back at the ranch (literally speaking...) Ronnie held out the "credit card" and shamed the Dems. when it comes to big, big governemnt and big, big spending. So what's wrong with that, you ask. Same thing as if you or I do the same. Someone's got to pay the bills, which ended up being us in the 90's.

Now we got another "Just Say Charge It!" president with the credit card out with big, big governemnt and big, big spending and no one particularilly interested in paying as we go. History certainly repeats itself. Funny thing, the American working stiff ain't got a clue..... YET! But he will when the bill collectors come knocking on his door in a couple of years. But not to worry. Junior and his media boys will place the blame on some Dem. scapegoat;.

And the beat goes on...

And the beat goes on...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:00 AM

Hi Amos, the guy who wrote the article lumped them together, read for yourself:

They'll have to think again about the Quiet American
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 01/12/2002)


The brand new film of The Quiet American is at least as much a travesty of Graham Greene's novel as the old 1958 film was. Back then, the book was too anti-American. Forty years on, it's not anti-American enough. So Greene's ambiguous naif blundering around colonial Vietnam has been oomphed up: the eponymously quiet American played by Brendan Fraser is now, as Peter Bradshaw puts it in The Guardian, "a CIA kingpin whose fresh-faced Ivy League mask falls away at the end to reveal a coldly ideological functionary".

Hmm. A genial Ivy League mask hiding a coldly ideological kingpin. Who does that remind you of? Of all the strains of anti-Americanism available these days, the new Quiet American at least takes the view that the blundering naivety is an artful pose. Off-screen, most anti-Americans won't even go that far. On Tuesday, Franoise Ducros, the Communications Director for the Prime Minister of Canada, was forced out of her job because she'd been overheard at the Nato summit disparaging the intelligence of President Bush. This is not quite the official position of Her Majesty's Government in Ottawa.

It's fine for the French Foreign Minister to accuse the White House of "simplisme", because those idiot Americans are far too simplistic to know what simplisme means. It's safe for "senior British civil servants", in this newspaper, to dismiss Bush as "a bear of little brain", because those frightful Yanks are too ill-educated to recognize such a subtle intellectual literary allusion. It's okay to sneer at the President, as is done routinely at dinner parties in London, Paris, Winnipeg, all the great cities, as "not the brightest bulb in the chandelier", because such concepts as metaphor and analogy are almost certainly unknown to the birdbrain.

Had she done any of the above, Franoise Ducros would still have her job. But instead she cut to the chase. "What a moron!" she scoffed, speaking in Prague to a CBC reporter. The CBC guy barely noticed the remark: I mean, what's the big deal? Everyone knows Bush is a moron, don't they? But Miss Ducros happened to be overheard, and the Canadian government was concerned that, moronic as Bush might be, even a moron knows the term isn't a compliment. Miss Ducros' job is to get her boss press coverage, no easy thing when your boss is the Prime Minister of Canada, and the only coverage she got out of the Nato meeting came when Saddam Hussein publicly endorsed her opinion of Mr Bush and she temporarily displaced Celine Dion as the most famous Canadian in Baghdad. Granted that, on the question of war with Iraq, Canada's doing its usual routine of insisting the sidelines are the moral high ground, the government's not yet ready to be Saddam's PR agency. So Francie Ducros bit the dust.

There's something apt about the way Miss Ducros' remark was seized on by Saddam, one delusional superiority complex reaching out to another. I was in the Gulf six months ago, and I came to the conclusion that a majority of the people I met - somewhere between 55 and 70 per cent - were, to use the technical term, nuts. That's to say, they believed things that no rational person could believe. You'd be talking to an attractive, westernised, educated Bahraini lady doctor and she'd suddenly start babbling on about how there was no plane that crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, all the footage had been faked by the government. "But I know someone who saw it from his office window," I said. "He just thinks he saw it," she replied. "The Americans know how to do these things."

John Derbyshire of America's National Review thinks the Middle East needs a massive invasion of psychiatrists. Well, about halfway through this last week in Canada, I realized I was beginning to feel about my homeland exactly the way I'd felt in Araby: these guys are nuts. Quebec's biggest English-language radio station, CJAD, conducted a listener poll on the question "Is George W Bush a moron?" Every single person said yes, he's definitely a moron, except for two who thought he was merely an idiot. On the letters pages, it was the same, except for Art Peel of Hamilton, Ontario, who complained that calling Bush a moron "does a disservice to the mentally challenged, most of whom are kind, gentle people".

Exactly. Most Canadians and most Europeans are kind, gentle people but, Bush-wise, they're the ones who are mentally challenged. The "moron" line is simply inadequate: no rational person can believe a twice-elected Texas Governor, successful US President and overthrower of the Taliban is a moron unless a majority of Americans are morons, too. And in that case how come the morons have a global dominance unparalleled in history? As with those wacky Arabs and their Zionist conspiracies, Euro-Canadian anti-Americanism is a psychosis.

In fairness to the late Ayatollah Khomeini, when he dubbed the US the Great Satan he at least understood that America is a tempter, a seducer: his slur attempts to explain its appeal. Calling America the Great Moron, by contrast, is just feeble. I happen to like moral clarity myself, but I can appreciate that for some tastes Bush's habit of dividing the world into "good" and "evil" and using these terms non-ironically might seem a little simplistic. But it's nowhere near as simplistic as dividing the world into "I'm right" and "you're stupid".

For Republicans, this is an old song. "President Reagan's library burned down. Both books," drawled Gore Vidal from his exile in Italy. "The tragedy was he had not finished colouring the books." This is the guy who won the Cold War. In the 1950s, Eisenhower was a smiling dummy who cared most about his golf. This is the fellow who won the Second World War. But long after everything else has crumbled away the intellectual arrogance of the anti-Americans is indestructible. "A man like George W Bush is simply not possible in our politics," I was told by an elegant, cultured Parisian this spring. "For a creature of such crude, simplistic and extreme views to be one of the two principal candidates in a presidential election would be inconceivable here. Inconceivable!" Two weeks later, Jean Marie Le Pen made it into the final round of the French election.

In The Quiet American, Graham Greene treated these cliches more fairly than most: the American may not understand the Vietnamese, but the worldly Englishman is mired in his jaded passivity. Whether these stereotypes were ever true, today they've been subtly modified. The Rest of the West is more mired in jaded passivity than ever, but it's no longer worldly, just hopelessly parochial: George Monbiot, The Guardian's unreliable predictor of mass devastation in the Hindu Kush, doesn't have a clue about the Afghans nor the Anglican bishops about the Iraqis; all they're doing is projecting their sad little Left-wing salon chit-chat halfway around the globe in a kind of sissy-boy cultural imperialism.

The American is still quiet but the Euro-Canadians get noisier in proportion to their impotence. American naivety transformed Japan and Germany. Anglo-French worldliness gave us Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and thereby September 11. If it takes centuries of "experience" in the region to invent Pakistan, then how much worse can a blundering Yank moron do?"

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Richie
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:53 AM

I've never posted on a political tread so...

I'm a registered independent, I support President Bush and voted for him in the last election.

I'm against terrorism, and murders like Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. I think it's time for the world to unite against terrorism. When left alone Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait, when left alone Osama Bin Laden has murder thousands of innocent people.

I don't think Bush is a moron.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 12:30 PM

Thanks for the article Teribus. Some interesting points in there. I may not think Bush II is the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but Comments like "moron" are never intended to realisitically indicate a guess at a person's actual IQ. Presidents are also not the sum of their administration; the Prez may not be brilliant, but that's why Presidents have advisors and staff.

I'm not likely to hop on the bandwagon about how Reagan ended the Cold War or Bush II defeated the mighty Taliban.

I mean, really. The Taliban wouldn't be in power if we hadn't put them there in the first place; defeating the Taliban is like me bragging about how I beat up a 3 year old kid. The 3 year old may or may not have deserved a bloody nose, but it's no indication of my "power."

The Soviet Union simply collasped under the weight of it's own arrogance. It was foolish of them to think they could out-spend us when they had no real economic infrastructure to speak of. For all the talk of "Communism," they were a totalitarian oligarchy. Communism was simply the state religion. Which is not to say Reagan didn't try, and he did help speed up some symbolic issues, like the Berlin Wall. But the collapse of the Soviet Union was no triumph, it was simply fated to be. Of course, Reagan will go down in history with the "credit" -- someone has to get it -- but I was a raging Reagan fan back then and even I didn't think that Reagan really had a whole lot to do with it. The Republican rewriting of history lauding Reagan as one of the great presidents is kinda sad. Personally I though Bush Sr. was a better President, even if I disagreed with his politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:14 PM

Bobert: thanks for the invite. I know the marchers are nice folks and all that, but my feet hurt if I march too much. When I hear of thousands of marchers, though, I wonder why they are not working.

In your post yesterday you commented something about the Iraqis not being able to down a F-16 if it stood still, or something like that. Bobert, an F-16 cannot be "still" in flight. It can't go backward either. You sounded a bit disappointed the Iraqis haven't shot down one of our planes, or one of Tony's. You weren't implying THAT were you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM

Bush is the first person who has managed to make Saddam look good. Surely that counts for something?

A few years ago Saddam was regarded as a not-nice guy even by Muslims. Today people all over the world seem to be saying, "Hey, in comparison with Bush, he ain't so bad after all."

To turn a perceived despot into an underdog, oppressed hero in just a year took some doing - and George did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 02:49 PM

Doug:

Well, danged! Of course I know that the F-16 can't stop in mid air! Heck, I may be a Wes Ginny hillbilly but I ain't stupid. Geeeze.

The point I was making yesterday was that this little decade long game that the F-16 pilots and the Iraq's on the ground hasn't brought one plane down and I reckon after 10 long years that the Iraqi's ain't gonna suddenly get better at the game. So for Junior to use this little beneign game as a motivation for attacking Iraq is no better than Kennedy's excuse when a Viet Namese fishing boat *may or may not* have fired a bullet from a WW I rifle at a US destroyer.

Now, today, the other half of the *twidle-dee-twiddle-dummer* (your choice...) releases a report that Saddam is a bad man. Hmmmmmm? Like that's, ahhh, NEWS? Well, maybe to the guy who just woke from a coma who has missed the last few months of drum pounding but to no one else. Oh well, can't say that your tax dollars aren't at work 'cause Junior's PR folks are spendin' 'em like there's no tomorrow. Oh, that's right. Maybe there won't be. Word on the street is that Saddam has nuclear waepons and he's plannin' on attackin' the US and UK with 'em any day now.....

Give my boney Wes Ginny butt a break, folks.

And while yir at it, beam me up....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 05:12 PM

Well, the article does not exactly lump Ike and Bushhead together; let's be very clear about the differences. Ike went to war, in what can only be called a legitimate cause; Bush has never gone to war but wants others to do so on grounds he will not specify. Ike warned the American poeple to beware the military-industrial complex; Bush forced people to embrace and support it. Ike was a well-read, mild-mannered, gentleman fromt he Midwest; Bush is an arrogant, semi-literate twit from Texas, except the Texans I know say he just pretends to be a Texan. Eisenhower was a good strategist and a proven general before he was tapped for politics; Bush was a general good-for-nothing and miscreant before he decided that qualified him for politics. Eisenhower was relatively thoughtful and quite articulate, and Bush is thoughtless, reacts primarily to his own anger and the dictates of his coaches, and cannot compose an articulate sentence to save his life.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 05:19 PM

Amos, you've made your case: the two are amazingly alike! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 05:39 PM

Troll-

( I'm assuming you're not a 'guest' at all but the same fellow that's been around for quite a while)

At any rate, flame is not the way to destroy a troll.

Not my intent to flame at all - I'm trying to be objective.

Do a search and read this individual's posting history. He/She has repeatedly made unequivocally racist and white supremecist statements. Additional views She/He expresses and the manner in which they are expressed certainly indicate a sociopathic and possibly a pshchopathic personality; preposterous statements and assertions that would embarrass many if not most thinking political conservatives.

It is, of course, possible that She/He posts without really believing the spew; in that case She/He is simply a vicious buffoon- immature and obnoxious.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 05:54 PM

Teribus, thanks but no thanks! If by lifting a press column you think to gain credit (from intelligent folks), then you are making a big mistake, even though it slobbered a slimey gooey totaly false impression of the issues raised by e-events, to wit - one man and his character.

It is not about G W's intelligence, that is not the issue. We all know he is as clever as most and more than many including the fat pig of Radio Brainwashing, Mr Bumm Tushraw.

Instead it is about getting out of reality by various 'preppy' tricks - making up words- which may influence softies and old women. See the Yahoo chat (above) for clarification.

Nor is it about courage, he took on Saddam after Osama had been driven into oblivion, allbeit from the safety of the Bunker. No, I am not being ungracious here, just what I hear every other person I meet comment! G W cares about his butt, and why shoulden't he! It is not 1942 and this is not the Lufwaffe bombing London. We do not expect US service men to leap out of trenches under fire and bayonette the Taliban! Or do we? Courage under fire takes a special kind of character, the kind we expect every one who dares claim the title of defender of the colors. Enough said!

But alas confusion, the whole debate is riddled with leftovers from the last leader including some deepfelt anger towards the Freepers for the way they butchered an innocent, if randy, man. But leaving that aside, even in war time and under the scrutiny of the newly formed SS I have no fear at all in saying, I defend this president's character as much as I did the last while ever keeping a truthfull eye wide open. In short the hype demands an eraser.

No better place to debunk hype than your elevated views of Ronnie Reagan. Look - chum (Canadian/British/Euro pet name for an intelligent person who is pretending to be a dog) - the USSR was falling apart, the Iron Knickered Witch of the North, Maggie (Atilla the Hen) Thatcher had already secured the absolute end of it all with one British hand-held anti-aircraft missile when her minnions delivered it to Mr Osama Bin Laden way way back there; it was yet a time when the Bin Ladens and Bushes were swapping parties (and business leads) for Oil Barrons from all over the Globe including a couple of suckers from Argentina, but alas that was not going to last when they found all that unexplored/undiscovered oil in Kazhakstan and locality. They had what we Euro/Canadian/British call 'a falling out', a family row. Did that cause 9-11? We don't yet know but I bet some American-historian down the road will be seriously wondering. I know I am, how about you Terribus?

Backing up a little, in case your memory is still a little blurred, it was around the same time that the USA armed Saddam Hussein with Chemies and other efficient tools for settling social unrest among Kurdies, Osama helped here as well while the US had to it's own man on the ground for their sightly different adgenda, but nobody was looking at the other fellow's maps - and why would they being good buddies. Now who was it that arranged all this mayhem and .....gassing?

Now I admit G W had nothing to do with these things, he was still a young fellow running around having a good ole time at the country club and occasionaly at college. In between these bouts of normality he grabbed a few shots of whatever there was to enliven the boredom of being a young rich kid. Who wouldn't, not me, but hey only if I could afford the life style. Can you?

Lets face facts, if there was no wad of dough to bank then this turkey he would probably be a fast food manager not the president of the USA: now don't get yer knickers in a twist here, this is what the folks I meet tell me and who am I to argue, being a Euro/Canadian/British leftie.

Naw none of this is relevant so long as Saddam now gone wrong, now a threat to world peace - I am not making this up !- now the owner of Scud Missiles, of hidden nuclear thingies ( more Britishisms ), of other frightening chemicals and so on, is about to attack somebody, well anybody. Saddam likes attacking things; did he not get the Maddest-Maddog prize at the Dictators-who-attack-things Ball in Mecca last year?

So somebody oughter get rid of this monster, we should have gotten rid of it long, long ago. How about when we first knew he had gassed thousands of Kurd civilians? This is why Tony Blair now want's the Brits to invade Iraq, and hey if we are going to meddle lets do it properly. So how about Kuwait and democracy? How about Saudi and civil rights? Heck lets take the whole darn thing for democracy - and the oil would start to be handy around 2025-50, well there or there abouts...more Britishisms, sorry!

Yup that is what we must do, especially with the need for new enterprise(=a job) for the likes of Ron the E person who stole more old ladies savings than 'E Deal' the online day trader in a trailer house under any Interstate; you know the fellow with an MBA, the one on the TV add for more wire in yer telephone line.

When it comes to brains he who wrote your pasting along with Erie-E-Deal-4-U wrote the book Terribus, it makes me jealous. How can one person get away with so many lies and still sound like he/they is telling the truth?

Perhaps the kind that says 'Quiet American'

Terribus you should have known better, ...Yanks are loud.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 06:04 PM

In Terror War, 2nd Track for Suspects
Those Designated 'Combatants' Lose Legal Protections
By Charles Lane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 1, 2002; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58308-2002Nov30.html

The Bush administration is developing a parallel legal system in which
terrorism suspects -- U.S. citizens and noncitizens alike -- may be
investigated, jailed, interrogated, tried and punished without legal
protections guaranteed by the ordinary system, lawyers inside and outside
the government say.

The elements of this new system are already familiar from President Bush's
orders and his aides' policy statements and legal briefs: indefinite
military detention for those designated "enemy combatants," liberal use of
"material witness" warrants, counterintelligence-style wiretaps and searches
led by law enforcement officials and, for noncitizens, trial by military
commissions or deportation after strictly closed hearings.

Only now, however, is it becoming clear how these elements could ultimately
interact.

For example, under authority it already has or is asserting in court cases,
the administration, with approval of the special Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Court, could order a clandestine search of a U.S. citizen's
home and, based on the information gathered, secretly declare the citizen an
enemy combatant, to be held indefinitely at a U.S. military base. Courts
would have very limited authority to second-guess the detention, to the
extent that they were aware of it.

Administration officials, noting that they have chosen to prosecute
suspected Taliban member John Walker Lindh, "shoe bomber" Richard Reid and
alleged Sept. 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui in ordinary federal courts,
say the parallel system is meant to be used selectively, as a complement to
conventional processes, not as a substitute. But, they say, the parallel
system is necessary because terrorism is a form of war as well as a form of
crime, and it must not only be punished after incidents occur, but also
prevented and disrupted through the gathering of timely intelligence.

[...]






There ya go folks -- with the flick of a wrist the Bush boys can turn you from an AMerican citizen into a dishrag on mere suspicion alone. Anyone remember the Star Court? THe Spanish Inquisition? Salem? Various lynchings by mobs in the Southern and Western territories of the United States? Well, these precedents are become OFFICIAL in order to save us all from terroristas. Except for the official terroristas, of course...they don't qualify. If the powers that be ever do turn these remarkable and ill-gotten powers oin each other, it will be a hoot to watch. Meanwhile. your bill of basic rights has become optional, I guess.

These guys may not be morons but that doesn't mean they're not psychotic.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 06:45 PM

Speaking of war, there's a big story that's received ZERO coverage in the US news. Although it's authenticity cannot be verified (and I'm inclinded to belief Osama is not the actual author), the Osama bin Laden "Letter to America" is a very clear statement from Islamic extremists on what their point of view is and why they are anti-West.

Since these folks ARE our enemies -- "war on terror" rhetoric or not -- I think that's is very, very sad that no one in the US press seems to feel like this deserves attention. (Of course, one of my local news stations is bragging about how they don't cover international news... *sigh*) It appears that folks would rather speculate on "why they hate us" than get the story from the horse's mouth.

History of the letter HERE

Text (translated) of the actual letter HERE

It's quite long, but very lucid. Sandwiched between the religious fervor and general hatred are some very, very relevant points.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:05 PM

Thanks for the link, Nicole C.

I read it. Given the premise, it makes a number of good points. However, I would be very surprised to learn it was written by bin Laden or any other 'foreigner'. I suspect that it was written by an American, perhaps a convert to Islam, or possibly just an opportunistic person. There are several places where the phrasing seems uniquely 'western'.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:08 PM

Ebbie, if you read the report, this was originally written in Arabic and posted on a Saudi web site, then was circulating among Islamic extremists in England before the press got their hands on it. It was, however, translated by a Brit, but the translator is unknown.

It's clearly designed for western ears, but then again, that's the premise. Something about it bugs me, too; maybe it's the translation. I don't know how well Arabic translates -- I gather that it's a very concise language, using far fewer words to get across a concept than English. If so, translationg could be "loose" by nature.

I think I'd like to see how a scholarly translation stacks up against this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:37 PM

Nope, Ebbie, I'm fairly confident you are wrong. I think it was written by Bobert. I'm just surprised that sucker hasn't taken credit for it. He's a case, isn't he? And he can spell when he really wants to! :>0

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:00 AM

Actually, Nicole, I think you are being sensitive to something in the copy that is genuinely jarring. If it was translated by some in house Foreign Desk expert uit might account for the terribly strained mixture of sectarian stridency and secular semantics. There's certainly a lot of tough and sometimes righteous talk there, but it rings off-key somehow.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 05:52 AM

Guest sorefingers:

"Teribus, thanks but no thanks! If by lifting a press column you think to gain credit (from intelligent folks), then you are making a big mistake, even though it slobbered a slimey gooey totaly false impression of the issues raised by e-events, to wit - one man and his character."

Before making the above comment you should have read what I posted and Amos's response. Then read the beginning of my post where the article appears. The article was "lifted" only to let Amos read it for himself - no thought at all on my part to gain credit from intelligent folks (such as yourself??). Reading through your post though brings home one point made in the article that your attack clearly demonstrates:

"...it's nowhere near as simplistic as dividing the world into "I'm right" and "you're stupid"."

As for:

"It is not about G W's intelligence, that is not the issue."

Am I missing something in the title of this thread???

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 09:56 AM

Terribus, agree to disagree. The article is on a public forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:06 AM

Ya wanna know how dumb this Bush fella is? I'll tell ya. He hasn't bought that Condolezza Schwartz a copy of these here Mudcat CDs yet!! It would make her day, and he ain't lifted a finger!! Talk about OB-tuuuse!! I swan!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:26 AM

I have read the letter Nicole has linked to with great interest for I previously only had read about that letter.
Especially the second part (what they want from the 'West' to stop) gives me ample reason to oppose them. What they demand is so much in contradiction to how I prefer to live that I'd go to great lengths to prevent them coming close to their aims.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:22 AM

Wonder if they would change their tune if we sent them those terrific Mudcat Sampler CDs??


Wolfgang -- well said, and fully agreed!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:43 AM

LOL, Amos!

After digesting the letter (in my sleep, where I do my best thinking), I am more convinved that the letter is a) NOT written by bin Laden or those close to him, b) is written by an Arabic speaking Islamic fundamentalist and c) the translation is not very good and has been westernized.

The most compelling reason for a) is that bin Laden is quite good about passing messages to the press. He would not have just posted a letter on a web site that was intended for western ears, it would have been delivered anonymously to al Jeezera per his normal mode of operations. Secondly, bin Laden is very western-savvy. The refutation of the Jewish claims on Israel in the letter is entirely based on religion. In the West, however, a strong legal precedent exists for the concept of ownership by possession. But the fact that the Palestinians had been living there for thousands of years, many of those when the Jewish hadn't, isn't even mentioned. Bin Laden would not have missed such an easy argument.

This point also speaks to point b). A western writer would not have missed that point; it would have been given equal billing with the religious one.

The translation seems poor because of the use of words like "revenge." Islam does NOT allow revenge -- it does, however, allow (and require) self-defence. The use of a word like revenge is a loaded one in English, but does not really convey the original concept defined just prior to it's use. Self-defense would have been a better word, but it doesn't speak very agressively in English. Then, he writer makes a compelling argument against the idea that people in a democracy can ever be considered civilians, but follows up with the idea that killing civilians is permitted in Islam. Other than the fact that killing civilians is specifically prohibitted in the qaran, it makes no sense to make such a statement following an argument that Americans are NOT civilians because they control the actions of their government.

The westernization of the translation seems most apparent in the topic of women. There appears to be a gap in the text. On other subjects, the writer is very verbose. On this one, there is only a short paragraph. Why? The paragraph which refers to the exploitation of women for commercial means being a limitation rather than a freedom is very much mainstream Islam. Although most feminists would not be happy with the proscribed role for women in the Qaran, it is MUCH more pro-female than the Old or New Testament. Yet, we know that fundamentalist Muslims do not share this generally pro-female view with the rest of Islam. Are there paragraphs missing, removed to appeal to the western audience that the translation is for? I suspect the paragraph on women was followed up by more fundamentalist views. Elsewhere, the author didn't pull any punches about anti-Jewish or anti-western statements; it makes no sense that the writer would have done so about women.

Anyway, that's my general concept on the authorship. I am inclined to this the author is a Saudi who believes in the fundamentalist movements and may be involved in it, but is not in a leadership position.

As a HUGE fan of pluralistic societies, I can't say that the world view expoused in this letter is something I'd like to come anywhere near. But there are legitimate grievances about Western actions that we can and should address. By doing so, the West can help avoid the spread of this kind of sentiment and the violence -- and death -- that follows in it's wake.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:02 PM

Wow, Nicole!! I am impressed. A taxing task, and a very sharp analysis.


NOW go order your Mudcat CDs!! You earned 'em!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM

I already DID order my Mudcat CDs. It's not my fault I don't have 'em yet! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM

Doug, and others:

While I found myself agreeing with some of the points of the Osoma Letter, I did not write it.

Actually, Osoma and John Ashcroft have a lot more in common than I do with Osoma. Both are right winged extremists. Make no bones about Osoma. If he were the President of the United States he would kill millions of people for their sins against Allah: prostitution, drug use, alcohol use, homesexuality, etc. I think Ashcroft, if left to his own devices, would severely punish folks for what he sees are the same sins.

No, this is a sobering letter and one that really makes one stop and think about how we are seen by those folks who really *are* our enemies and how, other than diverting our focus toward hot wars, can they be defeated.

One important step, I believe, would be the "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit" that I have offered as a step to derail the recruitment bonaza that our failed foriegtne policies have created for Osoma and Co..

A second step, the creation of a Department of Peace. See previous thread.

But, probably the most important step and the most difficult is for the *working class* to take back democracy and get the folks out of power who are nothing more than corporate employees. 9 out of 10 winners in the recent election were canidates who *spent to the most money*. (keep an eye on Luisiana Saturday and you'll see how it works...)

Unfortunately, there is little that the *working class* can do to stop Bush's plans to attack Iraq. Maybe the deaths of our kids and grandkids will jump start a movement large enough to leave a "No more Bush's" imprint on our collective value system.

Yeah, we're going to have to deal with these basic flaws some where down the road because until we do become a caring neigbor rather than the greedy one that we are now, the future will be paved with Osomas.

Bobert

P.S. Thanks, Nicole, for posting the link, though the reading wasn't too *fun*.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 04:55 PM

Bobert --

You can cheer yourself up by ordering an EXTRA set of Mudcat CD's to send to Saddam.

Or to send to DougR!! Imagine that!!! LOL!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 07:36 PM

The most recent reports I have heard are that the audio tape supposedly made by Bin Laden was not genuine. I seriously doubt he wrote the letter either. Any "nut" could write such a letter and the press would likely print it. Particularly so if the press that did so was not very careful in their research. That could be the reason you haven't seen anything about it in your newspapers Nicole.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 08:10 PM

You must be right Doug. The US newspapers and media know better, and we should only concern ourselves with what they choose to report on. Anything else must be, by definition, irrelevant and untrue.

And before Amos says it... my local newspaper hasn't reported on the Mudcat CDs either. They must be fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 08:21 PM

Nicole...I am stunned. I think I have just lost every ounce of faith I ever had in the press.   They haven't reported these incredible CDs??? The NEWS of the HOUR!!! The PINNACLE of ARTISITIC ACHEIVEMENT???

Oh, woe!! The Fourth Estate, Overrun with PHILISTINES!!!

QUICK!!!!

Let them know!!! Right away!!!

Maybe the cultural affairs deskman was sick this week or sompn....


:>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 08:38 PM

Doug:

First of all, it doesn't matter who wrote the letter. It pretty much sums up the issues that seperate the two sides.

Secondly, "investigative" journalism is DEAD in America. One of the last American investigative journalist, Greg Palast, was sent packing for diggin' in the wrong places. The only ones left are holed up at Pacifica which has five FM stations around the country. Other than that, your guys own the rest of the media.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Troll
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:02 AM

Yeah Greg, it's me.I lost my cookie. Got it back though.
Bobert, just because the "rest of the media" doesn't happen to hew to the same line as Pacifica, it doesn't mean that they are all owned by "your guys", whoever That may be. It simply means that they have different editorial policies than does Pacifica. There is nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time in free societies. It is only in the totalitarian societies that all the media follow the same editorial policy.
The fact that investigative reporters for branches of the media other than Pacifica are not investigating the things that YOU think they should be investigating is not an indication of their demise.
It is merely an indication of your political bias.
Regarding your "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit", I will ask again the question I asked when you first brought it up.
How do you plan to force (yes, that's right. Force) the various countries to attend. Saddam won't sit down with Israel, the Ayatollas won't sit down with Saddam, etc.
I await your answer.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:17 AM

Just a thought... before talking about "forcing" folks to attend, *asking* them first might be most appropriate.

But as the largest economy in the world, it's quite simple. Attend, or we don't sell you anything, give you any military aid, or buy anything from you. Period.

Would suck if the Sauds didn't show up though...

But there's asking and there's asking. Deputizing significant and well-respected allies (like the King of Jordan) to approach countries with which they have good relations would be more diplomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:22 AM

Hi Nicole, thanks for the link to the letter, makes frightening reading - I agree with your assessment that Bin Laden is an unlikely author.

If it fairly accurately sets out the points of difference and remedial actions required, the the proposed "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit" is a non-starter, since one the main remedial actions appears to be that the state of Israel must cease to exist.

Wolfgang - I agree whole-heartedly with your opinion - very well put.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:08 AM

Troll:

I guess you weren't around during the 60's and 70's when the media went out and snooped around and a week didn't go by when there was a major documentary on the tube.

What reporters do these days is take press releases that are written by whom? The Government! Yeah, they scramble a few sentence, make a couple calls and write the stories. The Gulf war is a prime example of that. The government spoon fed the media and consequently we were provided with the *government's* spin on the events. The *governemnt* has allready had meetings with the press on the upcoming Iraq War and told the media that, in essence, "You'll get what we give you." Yeah, there's more to investigative journalism than atytending one government "press conference" after another.

GUEST:

I hope that you were being flip about the destruction of Isreal but, depending on which GUEST you are, you may be perfectly serious. While I'll be the first to admit that with every suicide bomber or Palestinian shot down by the Isreal military, a ceasation of violence becomes harder to visioulize BUT, it must come and will come at some point in time. I believe that the US missed a good opportunity when it rejected the Saudi Proposal. This could have been a framework for waht I have been suggesting. Throw in some good old fashined diplomacy, Nicole's "leverages" and a couple billion bucks worth of good PR and I'd venture we wouldn't be on the eve of spending $200B and exercising the most anti-human foriegen policy option.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:32 AM

From the "Bin Laden" Letter:

"The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily."

Now if that fairly reflects current Al-Qaeda thinking - nothing short of the erradication of the state of Israel will satisfy them. Later on in their letter they even castigate Arab regimes who are prepared to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state, and declares them enemies.

Any real dialogue with these guys, who have attacked you and continue to plan attacks against you irrespective of your actions and intentions, seems well nigh impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:09 AM

Aw, c'mon now folks...

*ALL* politicians are eejits...that, or complete and total megalomaniacs who could give a rats ass about anything but their own power base (coughcoughbillclintoncoughcough).

We'd be a lot better off if we the people decided that political positions should earn about what a Manager at McDonalds earns...

Then, no one but those who really care about doing the real work would have anything to do with it.

S'why I voted for that wacko Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:59 AM

Yeah, right.

"Hey Osama you want fries with that?"

And that would be the competence level you'd get in government with a low wage. Either that, or those so obsessed with wielding power that you'd want them as far away from it as possible.

Come to think of it, kind of like the situation now.

But I'm interested in how the "leverage" factor would work. How are you going to stop mega-national corporations dealing with those countries on your shit list. Think they'll stop making the easy bucks because Dubya says so?

Most of the turmoil going on in the world today has a healthy contribution from/because of big business. It's they who call the shots. It's they who made rich lunatics like Osama.