BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:52 AM

And Vietnam only pretended to be 'Communist' after WWII when its pleas to the Western Powers for help went unheeded, and the Colonial Attitude prevailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:20 AM

Well, as I grew up and navigated the 'isms' Communism seemed to me to be a perversion of Socialism with totalitarianism thrown in as a sort of bonus. I know there were variations, such as Stalanism and Trotskyism and I suppose Leninism, and we haven't even journeyed back to Marxism (I never heard of Engelism but by now I'm on a roll).
Communism also suffered from its adherents giving information to and taking direction from foreign governments, unless they happened to already be in Russia.
In short, Communism seemed to be whatever the boss and his henchmen said it was. As the bosses got older along with the workforce, it seemed to peter out until Gorby made his legendary visit to an American supermarket.
Communism also claimed to be proudly atheistic while yet suffering all the disadvantages of slavish beliefs without evidence. (And Communists didn't believe in Darwin).

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM

Having suffered much pigeon-holing at your hands, Don, I find your posts quite ironic. Ironic and humorous.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM

John, point out a few instances where I have pigeon holed you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:09 PM

John, the only place I can think of where we have had a protracted exchange recently was in the "'Strengthening' Social Security" thread. I've reread that thread quite thoroughly, and although we don't see eye to eye on the matter of Social Security and Bush's push for private accounts, it looks to me like a fairly reasonable discussion. I see nothing that would indicate to anybody that I am "pigeon-holing" you. In fact, others on that thread are responding to you in a much harsher and more personal manner than I ever did.

Are you sure it's me you're thinking of? Or possibly someone else.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM

Don,

You're right in that, most of the time, you are merely condescending. But you indeed make it a regular practice of characterizing what others think for them. I was going to look back through my archives to find this kind of exchange between the two of us but, in 5 years here I've amassed over a thousand posts. It was too cumbersome.

Fortunately, though, I stumbled upon this pretty quickly into my search. Your character (assaination?) of Strick in this exchange is pretty much "pigeonholing". If not, it's close enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Peter - I blush slightly. Ta! What I meant by "twice over" is that first, she is a journalist, & second she apparently holds a relatively extreme political p-o-v.

Journalists are not policemen & are not employed to be truthful. They are employed to write saleable copy. Judicious manipulation of available facts can produce an extremely good story without ever coming remotely close to either pole of Truth or Lie!

If she is also a follower of a particular political ideology, particularly an extreme & one-sided ideology such as communism, she is extremely unlikely to be entirely objective or rational in her interpretation of events. Especially events that she personally participated in.

Hence, deliberately or otherwise, her version of events is going to be distorted. To be blunt, I do not disbelieve Sgrena's version of events, but neither do I trust it, particularly since her story has been "evolving", shall we say. Some of this, undoubtedly, is down to post-trauma effect as Wolfgang has noted. However, no-one with a grain of intelligence could possibly claim her inconsistent testimony is the "unvarnished truth". Of the three possible versions, Sgrena's is the least reliable in my opinion.

Regards,

R

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM

Troll - Please at least do the rest of us the courtesy of reading the thread properly! The tank question has already been more than dealt with. Every report states that Signor Calipari was killed by a bullet (not a shell fragment). Tanks mount machine guns as well as main cannon, so a tank could quite easily have been present & active. And for those who are not overly conversant with military terminology, I'm damn sure that a Humvee looks rather more like a tank than a family saloon car. Especially when it's shooting at you!

The one question that I am sure every contributor to this thread would like answered (regardless of nationality or political leaning) is: "Why is Signor Calipari dead?" May I suggest (it'll be ignored, I know... *grin*) that we stop bitching at each other until some better answers are available? Because, at the moment, we all seem to be agreeing that we need more data, & yet argue anyway!

Regards,

R

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:13 PM

John, I reread that whole thread, and granted, I got pretty steamed (mostly at people accusing me of saying something that I wasn't saying at all, not unlike this thread), but I can't find anything that I said to Strick, or anyone else, that qualifies as "character assassination." Others on that thread took issue with him far more vociferously than I did. In fact, I found instances where you attacked me pretty strongly, accusing me of "cutting and pasting" to avoid thought, which I corrected you about, and you acknowledged that you had been wrong.

Strick, on the other hand, deliberately misinterpreted several things I wrote, including a semi-humerous reference of mine, trying to undercut my argument by accusing me of getting my philosophical position from an episode of Star Trek. If there was any "character assassination" going on there, it wasn't coming from me.

I invite anyone who has the time, the inclination, and the stomach for it, to click on your link, read the thread, and judge for themselves. I see no point in prolonging this discussion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:48 PM

Well, since you took the prerogative (as opposed to prerogainetive -- BIG hairy difference) to, " see no point in prolonging this discussion", I guess it would be presumptuous and impolite for me to, you know, respond.    I'm never sure how to play with the guy who has owns the ball.

You seem to be a swell guy. Sorry we never were able to get past my offense and your disdain.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

Okay. Not "disdain," John. Nor "condescension." And I don't see that I "own the ball." Once again, you're reading things into it that I don't intend.

We seem to be talking past each other, which is why I don't see that there's any point to continuing. I don't like feuds. And I didn't start this.   But I'm perfectly willing to talk about it with you if we can come to some point of agreement, and to me, that would seem to be having enough respect for each other to at least attempt to avoid misinterpretation.

So where do you want to go from here?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:20 PM

Robomatic (and Raedwulf up to a point), eurocommunists have been participating constructively for very many years in democratic politics at parliamentary level in varioius European countries, not least Italy. They do take the view that nobody should have a lot until veryone has enough (as I do), but it's an aspiration they pursue through the democratic process. To imply that eurocommunists ever took their orders from Moscow is absurd. And in the case of Tito, who called himself a communist and was widely regarded as such, he made his defiance of Stalin (easily the most difficult of all so-called communists to defy) public knowledge.

The story about Gorbachev and a supermarket obviously means a lot to you, Robo. I hope no grown-up comes along and spoils it for you by letting slip that it might not be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:39 PM

I don't like 'em either -- feuds, that is. For a over a year I had my settings set on "no BS" here, and I prolly shoulda kept it that way.

Yeah, we talk past each other.

Yer a peach. Everybody knows that. I'll just not shake your tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM

I re-read the thread John Hardly linked to and it seems to me that Don Firth's voice and views were among the more moderate. Voices were raised in a number of places and from various people but I don't see condescension there. In fact, because of his strong opinion Strick's attitude - as he acknowledged - was a bit over the top; he insulted a number of people.

Not the best thread, imo, to illustrate your point, John Hardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:34 PM

I should undoubtedly stay out of the BS section, too. The whole place seems to generate more heat than light. It tends to get me hot under the collar, accomplishes little, and wastes an incredible amount of time.

I have nothing but respect for musicians, artists, and crafts persons who chose to try to make it self-employed. Been there, done that. It's a rough row to hoe, but even a modicum of success can bring an immense amount of satisfaction.

John, even though we often disagree here in the BS section, I have always considered you one of the more reasonable debaters, and I have no wish or intention to treat you in a condescending manner. If I seem to have done so, I'm sorry.

Just for kicks, I checked your pix in the "Member Photos and Info" section (one of these days I'm going to get off my duff and put my mug-shot in there). You do darn nice work!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:16 PM

Peter: Here we have some regular guys trying to act like gentlemen and talk TO each other rather than past each other. Then you chime in with a rather supercilious air and assure me that all is well without really saying anything. I don't recall the 'Eurocommunist party' ever really existing. I recall various Communist parties. I recall the Stalin-Ribbentrop pact and a few other things that maybe you don't take too seriously, but I think they affected Europe more than you seem to.

You had a chance to spread some light which was what I was trying to elicit, but instead you brought some grease. I don't like grease. It tends to spread a lot of smoke around.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

John PMed me. I PMed John.

Everything's copacetic.

That's the civilized way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 12:00 AM

Fionn, I said nothing about her being a communist. What I was referring to was her anti-American background.

Raedwulf, anyone who is working in a war zone, especially as a war correspondent, is going to know the difference between a tank and an armored humvee. If they don't, thare suffering from lethal stupidity and/or the people who sent them there without a proper briefing are guilty of criminal neglect.

My point about the tank I will repeat since some missed the point. If she had been targeted by the US for whatever reason, AND a tank was present, then the tanks maingun would have been used to take out the car and the death of everyone aboard would have been asured.

Foolestroupe, I'll ansewr you since I won't recognize those too cowardly to identify themselves.

The US in it's relationships with other countries on this planet
has and should always put its interests first. I know that this horrifies all you "lets not offend anyone at any price" types but it is typical of governments since the beginnings of recorded history.
It is not the job of this or any American administration to make the world love America. It is their job to protect the citizens of this country from outside forces and if they don't do it, you may rest assured that our country and our way of life are doomed.

I remember after 9/11 how some people wondered why the bin Laden and his cohorts hated us so. What had we done to arouse such hatred? And the answer was that we were overbearing and interferring and greedy and a whole host of similar claptrap.

The real reason was that we are the most powerful nation on earth and they want the whole world to be islamic. And they TOLD us this and the fools wouldn't listen. "No, they said, It must be something we did."

That the Iraqi people and the whole middle east is better off with the fall of Saddam is evident to everyone except those who want the US, or the Bush administration, to fail. They KNOW that success will only strengthen the US and so they report only the disasters and everyone watches (or watched) Dan Blather and his ilk telling us how badly we are doing and how much our credibility has slipped when anyone can talk to a soldier who is just back from Iraq and get the real story of how the Iraqi people feel.

But no, it's so much more satisfying to have ones predjudices reinforced instead of actually thinking for ones self. And why we should worry about what the world thinks is beyond me. Europe will not love us until the EU is the world power no matter what we do or say. Africa and South America want out aid so they generally keep quiet.
India and China are quietly working to overtake us and they may well do it. But not for quite a while yet and anyone that thinks that all the worlds countries are not acting solely in their own interest is too damn naive to be allowed out without a keeper.

I'll close now. I haven't told you anything that you didn't already know about either yourself or the current situation

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 01:22 AM

troll - "The real reason was that we are the most powerful nation on earth and they want the whole world to be islamic. And they TOLD us this and the fools wouldn't listen. "No, they said, It must be something we did."

Spoken like a true Nationalist and a person who has a very limited world perspective.

Since when did a soldier think for himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:11 AM

I don't have any real problem with the US putting it's interests first - I am - like many others - just pissed off that OUR stupid wankers of Politicians are so easily bribed as to ALSO put U.S. interests ahead of Australian (or any other of their own country's) ones!

I have heard in news here that there was definitely no tank - just humvees (this misunderstanding could have been due to a translation glitch) - and I still don't know just what the hell that nasty looking object is on top of the nice Humvee piccie linked to above.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 08:52 AM

Robomatic, I would have thought your last post makes it plain enough that you think all those who call themselves communist are tarred with one brush. OK,so you've never heard about eurocommunism and its split with Stalinism - that much was obvious. So read a bit, or travel a bit, and take a look at how the eurocommunists have engaged in mainstream politics in countries like France and Italy. And don't be frightened - some of them have behaved quite responsibly.

It doesn't all come down to the Stalin Ribbentrop pact, and incidentally if you're going to attach such weight to that, it would be reasonable to remember that it was Russians, putting their lives on the line on a scale never seen before or since, that saved Europe from fascism. (OK, Russia joined battle only because Germany declared war. But then it was Hitler declaring war on the US that put an end to America's evasions too.)

I know a number of journalists who are happy to call themselves communist. On the whole, they are rational, thinking, open-minded and conscientious people. If it turns out that Ms Sgrena is unreliable or untrustworthy, then that will be a personal weakness and not - as you imply - the consequence of her being a communist.

Stalin was a paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable - and an out-and-out despot. To assume all commies are like that is as absurd as to assume all capitalists are like the war-mongering George Bush Jnr.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:14 AM

Dinavan, you say "nationalist" like it's a nasty thing. As Hillel said, "If I am not for me, who is? And if not now, when"?

It was the failure of the Soviet Union to recognize the deep feelings that people had for their own countries and traditions (language, religeon, currency, etc.) These feelings caused them to have to have troops in nearly every country under the Communist rule, ostensibily to protect against a NATO (or whatever) attack. In reality, they were there to keep the populance in line and to keep nationalism down.

As history will note, as soon as they could, they declared their independence and became their own nations again.

Yes, I am a Nationalist. I love my country and want it to be first among nations. If this gives me a "very limited world perspective" , oh well.

Under our system of government, you are entitled to express your opinion.

For whatever it's worth.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:42 AM

Hey Peter: A somewhat better post than your previous one, so I'll try to be nice:

Blaming all communists for Stalinism is like blaming all Christians for the Inquisition. It is tarring with one brush, yet there is a lot of blame to go round.

Dragging in the fact that Russia did yeoman's work to defeat the Germans in WWII has little if anything to do with Communism. If you know much about the war you'll know that the Germans were first welcomed as liberators by Ukrainians and Russians until they learned there could actually be something worse than Communism.

I'm not so worried that every Communist is as you have determined Stalin to be "paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable". Maybe that's true, but the guy ran the largest country in the world for about 30 years, had nuclear weapons, and managed to die in bed. The Communists with him as their leader had one-party rule by terror for the whole of that time and a generation after. So I'm worried about the millions of people who FOLLOWED the "paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable" and were so blind as to write praises to him and his ilk.

You managed to spend more words than my original post saying a lot less. I also put forth that Communism was much more than a political party, it sought to supplant religion, philosophy, and to a point, science (unless it could be shown to serve the state, one guess as to who made that determination).

As for books, you advise me to read some but you didn't bother to point out a one. Some folks local to me gave me a book by Marcuse which I found unreadable. So may I commend to you Orwell's "Animal Farm", "1984", and Koestler's "Darkness At Noon".

Is the fact that there are eurocommunists now any different from the fact that there are euronazis now?

As far as does knowing that a reporter is or has Communist sympathies informative of bias, I think it profoundly IS. And while waiting for more facts of this affair to come out, I think we have already seen Ms. Sgrena having problems with facts and no fear of asserting opinions as facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:50 AM

Troll - "...anyone can talk to a soldier who is just back from Iraq and get the real story of how the Iraqi people feel.

But no, it's so much more satisfying to have ones predjudices reinforced instead of actually thinking for ones self."

So how does talking to a soldier help you think for yourself?

I repeat, since when does a soldier think for himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 12:49 PM

Correction:

If I am not for myself, who am I?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, when?
                            —Rabbi Hillel

Respectfully submitted,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 04:46 PM

Robo, I mentioned Russia's role in the war only becaue you referred to the Stalin-Ribbentrop pact. And I'm not sure on the evidence so far that I have a better opinion of Sgrena than you have. People can be flaky whatever their political affiliations.

Orwell took (I would say stole) the idea for Animal Farm from Gertrude Elias, an Austrian who fled to the UK before WW2. During the war she submitted a proposal to the BBC, where it was read by Orwell. She included illustrations in which people were shown as animals - pigs the leaders, horses the workers, etc. All of which would be completely irrelevant except that her satire was against fascism, not communism. Orwell's book could be against whatever you want it to be against, but for sure it's against totalitarianism of any sort.

Books on the subject can be heavy going unless you're a political anorak, but there are less intimidating sources. In case you don't have access to it, I'll PM you the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on eurocommunism. In France, communists were getting as much as a third of the popular vote in the early 1950s. But needless to say, they were not voting for a monster in the Stalin mould. No doubt they were helped by a reaction to France's pro-fascist stance in the war, but their electoral strength is something many in the US (I'm not saying you) find impossible to comprehend.

As far as religion goes, I'm all for putting respect for fellow human beings ahead of respect for whatever gods people choose to worship. On the question of religion v socialism you could try Tawney's study, "Religion and the Rise of Capitalism." It presents a persuasive picture of a very unsavoury alliance.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Mr. Guest
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 05:51 PM

isn't it interesting how Troll, like his esteemed leaders so often do, chooses to use quotes but leave out the line that doesn't support his self centered viewpoint? (thanx don firth) so it's not really a lie (and i'm sure Troll would be self-rightously horrified if it were so characterized) but merely a distortion of the actual message of the quote. by the way since you don't speak to those who don't "identify" themselves (as you do with your distinctive name "Troll") just call me MR.guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM

From news24.com - "Mario Marioli, a deputy commander of the US-led coalition troops in Iraq, was quoted by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica as saying: "I asked Calipari if I should inform our American allies of the hostage-freeing operation, but his reply was that under no circumstances was the ally to be informed."

Sounds about right. Blame it on the dead guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:05 PM

I am beginning to believe that Sgrena was considered an enemy of the U.S. govt. and was targetted.

From a former U.S. intelligence officer:

"I also believe that a clear motivation for preventing Sgrena from telling her story is quite evident. Let us recall that the first target in the second attack upon the city of Fallujah was al-Fallujah General Hospital. Why? It was the reporting of enormous civilian casualties from this hospital that compelled the US to halt its attack. In other words, the control of information from Fallujah as to consequences of the US assault, particularly with regard to civilians, became a critical element in the military operation.

Now, in a report by Iraq's health ministry we are learning that the US used mustard, nerve gas and napalm ­ in the manner of Saddam ­ against the civilian population of Fallujah. Sgrena, herself, has provided photographic evidence of the use of cluster bombs and the wounding of children there. I have searched in vain to find these reports in any major corporate media. The American population, for the most part, is ignorant of what its military is doing in their name and must remain so in order for the US to wage its war against the Iraqi people.

Information, based upon intelligence or the reporting of brave journalists, may be the most important weapon in the war in Iraq. From this point of view, the vehicle in which Nicola and Giuliana were riding wasn't simply a vehicle carrying a hostage to freedom. It is quite reasonable to assume, given the immorality of war and of this war in particular, that it was considered a military target."

Jerry Fresia is a former US Air Force intelligence officer. He now lives in Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM

This is the best (and seemingly objective) interview I've read so far:

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/03_Marzo/11/sgrena.shtml

I feel so sad for this woman. I can't even imagine how horrible it must have been to be a hostage, be the target of U.S. troops, be protected by a man who lost his life and then be called a liar.

I am equally sorry that the brave man who lost his life is now being blamed for not informing the U.S. This is truly the bottom of the pit. I will never, never trust that the U.S. (under Bush) is anybodies ally.

What will it take for the people of the U.S., Britain, and Australia to take to the streets?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:31 PM

In Science, Hysteresis (where the psychologist term hysterical originates) is the process whereby a system can be driven in 2 directions like a pendulum, but unlike a pendulum which moves smoothly along its path, suddenly jumps from one position to another. Political systems work like that - pressure builds for change, then it happens suddenly when people are not expecting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:39 PM

Don, thanks for the full quote.

"Mr. Guest". I thanked Don for giving the full quote. I had never seen it written out that way. Had I done so, I would not have used it.

Just who are my "esteemed leaders"?

Since you don't know a bloody thing about me, you are making a lot of assumptions. But then, You certainly want to substantiate YOUR POV which seems to be that I'm some wild-eyed fundamentalist Bushite who has to stand on a chair to tie his (or her) shoes.

I still have no respect for anyone who hides behind the "guest" label. This attitude seems to bother you.

Tough.

Dinavan, your obvious contempt for the military only betrays your abysmal ignorance of it.

Talking to soldiers who have been there is called primary research, which, if you knew anything outside your own narrow little inbred
political sphere, is an excellent method for checking the validity of the information coming in from secondary sources i.e. the media.

But of course, you already have the truth don't you. You don't need to check. Your sources are the only really factual ones, aren't they.
You don't need to think for yourself because your sources of information do it for you.

Kinda hard to tell the difference between a fundamentalist Christian, a fundamentalist Islamist and those true believers who ahve all the political answers.

In closing, let me say that you don't want to start a war. I'm a lot older and nastier than you ever dreamed possible. Keep your posts polite and I'll do the same.

BTW, thats "troll" with a lower case "t".

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:26 PM

Peter: Thank you for the response and the information. It is totalitarianism that I really hate, and both the nazis and the communists succumbed to it and were so far to the right and left that they circled around and met each other "on the backside" IMHO. I agree that Orwell once the shades were removed set totalitarianism as the enemy without necessarily making him FOR anything (except sex).

I will read the article you posted before I make more comments on eurocommunism. Obviously my literary references are from a more 'classic' period of political infighting. I am an admirer of Orwell particularly "1984" which I originally saw as a BBC production done very primitively and effectively at least 30 years ago, way more captivating than the rather limp eponymous movie. I was unaware of the story of a woman associating animals and politics giving Orwell the idea, but that in no way diminishes Orwell. If you are familiar with an ingenious Czech playwrite of the 30's, Karel Capek, he wrote a play variously called "The World We Live In" or "The Insect Play" where he likened various anthropomorphic qualities to different insects. I believe the capitalist was represented by a dung beetle. And of course even earlier Mayakovsky wrote a marvelous little ideological frolic called "Bedbug" which was quite funny for a communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:34 PM

Don:

I'm not sure of your source of the Hillel quote, but I have never seen it that way and I haven't found it on the web that way. The version I'm familiar with:

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
But if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?

It dates to the first or second century of the common era.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:49 PM

troll - You said, "Talking to soldiers who have been there is called primary research, which, if you knew anything outside your own narrow little inbred political sphere, is an excellent method for checking the validity of the information coming in from secondary sources i.e. the media."

I know enough about soldiers and the effect of war on soldiers to dislike war completely. I also know that soldiers are trained, not to think, but to follow orders. I also know that they will go to great lengths to justify mans inhumanity to man. You have suggested that I should think for myself and that I do. You, however, are making plenty of assumptions based on very little information.

I doubt very much if you have talked to any of the soldiers who witnessed the attack on the Italian journalist (which is the subject of this thread) and I also doubt if you are any older or nastier than I am. You called me impolite. I don't think its very polite of you to accuse me of starting a war when all I am doing is stating an opinion.   

My post of Mar.11 at 1:51 A.M. states, "I certainly don't blame the soldiers. How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end. How easy it is to follow orders. How easy it is to kill someone with friendly fire if you perceive that person to be a threat. Its war. Shit happens."

From now on read the entire thread before you start pointing fingers. Its considered the polite thing to do and try not to let your mind wander away from the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:14 AM

dianavan, I did not call you impolite.I simply said that if you keep your posts polite, I will do the same.

For your information, I have read the entire thread. From what little I have read of your postings, I have formed the opinion, possibly incorect, trhat you are one of those prople who believes that if everyone had the facts you do, why they would automatically accept your position as the correct one and if they don't they must be either misinformed, stupid, or evil.

So far your posts indicate a certain rigidity of position. As you say, my observations are based on a rather small sample. I shall continue to observe and will modify my opinion as the data comes in.

Of course I haven't spoken personally with any of the soldiers involved in the incident. It would be silly of me to even hint that I had.

Wherever did you get THAT idea?

While it is true that soldiers are trained to obey without thinking in combat situations, (it's a good survival technique) they can and do think in non-combat situations. Some of them go mad.

The situation, as it appears to me at this point, is that soldiers as a checkpoint fired on a vehicle that did not slow down. This was not just following orders but survival in a place where suicide car bombs are commonplace.

I'm unsure what information was withheld from whom ("How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end"). Perhaps you can fill me in on this one.

As far as your dislike of war goes, the only people that I ever knew who genuinely LIKED war were sociopaths. I rather doubt that this label applies to all those who believe that sometimes war is necessary to remove a threat to their country. Remember, no one ever considers themselves the bad guy.

I have no intention of getting into a discusion about the validity or lack of same with regards to Iraq.

I simply ain't going there.

If you want to know who I am, ask 'Spaw or Kendall or McGrath of Harlow, or CarolC. I tealize that I have wandered of the topic a little but, hey!, all information has SOME value.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:15 AM

Dianavan's posts and links offer an explanation for why Sgrena might at first have thought she was targeted, but it's a big leap from there to saying that she was targeted. Hasn't she dropped that allegation anyway, in her later interviews?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

I had a close friend who died of cancer about twenty years ago. He was not a musician, but he loved folk music, and during the Sixties, his house was always available on weekends if we folk music enthusiasts wanted to gather and have a songfest. He also had a massive collection of folk records, and as long as you were careful with them, you were welcome to borrow them to learn songs from them. He was one of Nature's noblemen.

He was of the Jewish persuasion, and hung on the wall of his living room, he had two small bits of parchment in frames with Hebrew script on them. I asked him once what they meant and he translated them for me. I liked them both, so I wrote them down and kept them. One was the quote by Hillel which I have posted above. I quoted it verbatim, the way he translated it for me. I am quite sure it is authentic, because, in addition to the consistency of its content, there is a poetic cohesion to it.

The other was the following:

Before he died, Rabbi Zusya of Hanipal said,
"In the world to come, they will not ask me, 'Why were you not Moses?'
They will ask me, 'Why were you not Zusya?'
                                                                              —Tales of Hasidim

Simple statements both, but they contain great wisdom.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:37 PM

I googled the Hillel quote, and I see what you mean. Most online sources seem to be fairly consistently, "who will be for me?" This may actually be it. I don't know Hebrew, but I do know that two people can translate the same statement in slightly varying ways. But I don't see that it changes the meaning all that much.

It's pretty similar to Jesus' "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Which is to say, "If I don't love myself, who will? But if I love only myself, what sort of creature am I?" (Ominous question.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:41 PM

Don:

Both your version and my version of the first quote from Hillel are (of course) translations. I think the version I posted gives more the sense of Hillel's words.

Your second aphorism posted directly above precisely matches how I remember it and it has moved me as it has moved you.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:39 PM

troll - "The situation, as it appears to me at this point, is that soldiers as a checkpoint fired on a vehicle that did not slow down."

Says who? Its my understanding that the car was travelling quite slowly after making a sharp turn. When they rounded the turn, the soldiers opened fire.

Guess we will have to wait and see what comes out of the investigation. I'd rather read what Sgrena herself has to say in the next few weeks, months, years.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:40 PM

Apopogies if someone has already pointed this out...

Communism is an economic system, not a political system. The political system in the Soviet Untion was not communism. It was totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is a kind of political system. The Soviet Union had a totalitarian political system with a communist economic system. It is possible to have a totalitarian political system with a capitalist economic system. It is also possible to have a communist economic system with a democratic political system.

Therefore, it is a non-sequitur to suggest that all Communists favor totalitarianism, just as it is an non-sequitur to suggest that all capitalist systems are democracies (fascist Italy being an example of a capitalist system that was also totalitarian). Sgrena's being a communist says absolutely nothing about what sort of person she is, except that she favors an economic system that promotes a more equal distribution of wealth than some other systems. It does not in any way suggest that she favors a totalitarian political system in order to bring about the economic system she favors.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:42 PM

LOL

apologies

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 04:00 PM

Good analysis, Carol! Exactly so!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM

Carol, that is only one definition of communism. The other definition, typically with a capital C, is Marxist socialism as developed by Lenin involving a theory of inevitable historical development culminating in a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. Claiming that the Soviet Union was an experiment in which communism was not tried is a copout.

One can make a converse argument, BTW, that in 'fascist' Italy the economy was whatever the Fascist leader said it was, hence not a true capitalism. However, around the world there are genuine capitalist economies with all sorts of mostly democratic governments, whereas I can't think of a significant case of a democratic government with a 'communist' economy.

Personally I'd rather use the word 'socialist' which is more generic and genuine.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

My point still stands, robomatic, in the case of Ms. Sgrena. The term "communism" does not always or necessarily refer to the way the Soviet Union (or any other totalitarian government using a communist economic system) conducted its political affairs. It can also refer to someone who believes in a democratic political system that uses a communist economic system. So it is still a non-sequitur to try to impute any sort of anything watever about Ms. Sgrena based only on the fact that she considers herself to be a Communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

It was certainly a command economy in the USSR Carol, but that doesn't mean it was a communist economy.

I don't see the mileage in the distinction you draw between economics and politics. Communism is the term applied to a certain social and economic system. But it is also applied to political movements that seek to implement that system. I make the point only because in this thread we have been using the term in its latter sense - quite legitimately.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 06:23 PM

In order for it to be like the Soviet Union, a communist (or socialist) economic system also has to be a totalitarian system. And as I've said, it is possible for a communist economic system to have a democratic political system. I think you need to have been brought up in the US, where being called a communist is, in terms of the severety of the accusation, about as bad as being called a Nazi (I draw your attention to robomatic's 12 Mar 05 - 10:42 AM post - this part, in particular: Is the fact that there are eurocommunists now any different from the fact that there are euronazis now?), to understand why this distinction is important when discussing the case of someone like Ms. Sgrena.

Just because someone believes in communism as an economic system, doesn't mean that they also prefer a totalitarian political system. Has Ms. Sgrena written any editorial pieces in which she has advocated totalitarianism? If not, any accusations that because she is a communist (and for that reason alone), she is not to be believed, are just speculation and have no validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

"It was certainly a command economy in the USSR Carol, but that doesn't mean it was a communist economy."

except that was what THEY called it...




Jesus was a Communist - It's In The Book!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:48 PM

The following is taken from Ms. Sgrena's column in Il Manifesto, the newspaper for which she works.

"The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier."

I find no mention of speed or curves. I do, however, find mention of nearly losing control of the car while trying to avoid puddles in the road (underpass specifically) which I interpret as driving at a fairly high rate of speed on a road that she knew to be heavily patrolled.

It is my understanding that Ms. Sgrean has changed details of her story several times, so I'm not too sure how a reliable she is as a witness.

Until I see further documented information, I will stand by my
original statement: the car didn't stop, they shot at it.

Foolestroupe, re. Jesus.

tune; Jesse James

Born in 29 B.C. in the town of Galilee,
Bathed in his unwed mothers tears.
He said, "Take it from the rich, and give it to the poor."
He pre-dated Marx by eighteen hundred years

Ch.
Jesus had no wife to mourn for his life.
He needed a bath and a shave.
But that foe of the proletariat, Judas Iscariot.
Laid poor Jesus in his grave.

troll