BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:06 PM

Emma B, it seems to me, is TRYING to make sense of it all, and showing how both 'sides' have both bad & good claims.

If one 'condemns' one side, they really need to balance things and offer similar condemnations relating to the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:08 PM

They have to make it about you, Emma, because they are trying to defend the indefensible. You provide a handy way to divert attention away from the real issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:22 PM

It would be refreshing to see some of the peaceful folks here speak as loudly against Hezbollah and Hamas.

None of my tax money is being sent to Hezbollah and Hamas to help them kill people. A hell of a lot of my tax money is being sent to Israel to help them kill and ethnically cleanse people, wage wars on them, and deprive them of their basic human rights, making me complicit in these crimes. I not only have a right to speak out about it, but I have a responsibility to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:27 PM

. . . and yet more wind from the east.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:47 PM

You can make personal attacks, Peace, but it won't do you any good. The tide of humanity will overtake those who use such tactics to silence people who speak out on behalf of human rights for Palestinians. And when that happens, those who fought against it will look to all the world like the dinosaurs they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:02 PM

What shows about you is that you have no 'humanity' as you like to call it. You say nothing about Hezbollah and their attacks on civilians, Hamas and its stance that the Israelis must be driven away. You are useless to speak with because every thread you go to ends up the same. Carol fighting with anyone who expresses a different opinion. You made a personal attack on me which is what started mine back to you. So, say and do as you want, but don't expect to have your posts treated as sacrosanct. You ask questions and like to have them answered. I asked Emma a question and you then say people--meaning pdq and me I guess--are trying to make it about Emma. How so? Does that mean when you ask a question of others that you are trying to change the subject? Do you ever think before you post? You have one set of rules for yourself and another set for others. You don't want shit slung at you, don't sling it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:08 AM

You started the personal attacks a couple of days ago by calling people who criticize Israel for its treatment of Palestinians, Israel haters and Jew haters. You've been using those kinds of bully tactics for a very long time to silence people who are working hard to help Palestinians gain their freedom and their rights. I don't focus on Hamas and Hezbollah because I know that focusing on them will not solve the problem. Removing the reason for the existance of Hamas and Hezbollah will solve the problem, and it will remove Hamas and Hezbollah. So that is what I am putting my energies into to try to help bring this about.

I don't speak out against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (as well as some of its other neighbors) just to criticize Israel. I do it because that's how this problem will be solved. By bringing the situation to the attention to as many people as possible. As the former Israeli soldiers in the video I posted said, it's US public opinion that drives this conflict or solves it. I have a responsibility as a tax payer in this country to work hard to try to help solve the problem, because my money is helping to create it.

But what you are doing and have been doing for a very long time is trying to silence people who are working to help the Palestinians, and by extension, also helping to remove the reason for the existence of Hamas and Hezbollah, and bring peace to the Middle East. And you do it by bullying them and making character assassinations against them. This tactic has been in use for a very long time, but it's losing its effectiveness as more and more people are able to see that what they've been told for so long are lies.

That's what happened to me in 2002. Prior to that time, I held the same beliefs about the Middle East as you and most everyone else. But that changed for me, and since 2002, when I first started talking about it, I've seen a steady and almost exponential increase in the number of people who are becoming aware of the reality in occupied Palestine and who can now see through the lies they've been told all their lives. The numbers of such people have grown so much that the difference is like night and day compared to 2002. And these people are Christians, Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions and of no religion.

The bully tactics just won't work any longer. The time has passed for that kind of thing. People will not be silenced.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:12 AM

Sleep will do you more good than talkin' to me. Good night, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:14 AM

It is very dificult to conduct a sane discussion with people who elevate the palestinian Arabs to a separate ethnic group. They are just plain Arabs. Most practice the same Suni Moslem religion and they speak Arabic.

I posted an article about the 'Philistines' whose name eventually became 'Palestinians' and gave that name to the Holy Lands. I was going to follow up that post with more information but things got off track a bit.

It appears that the ethnic Philistines (aka Palestinians) left with the Jews and followed Mose. The current unhappy folks who spend all their energy trying to destroy Israel go back no father than the period of Islamic conquests around 700 AD.

Even so, the area was almost empty by the end of the Turkish occupation from 1517 to 1917. Since then both Jews and Moslem Arabs have immigrated in large numbers, but many Arabs came only to share the wealth that the Jews brought.

Since WWII, many Arab countries have sent their most worthless people, the bottom of Arab society, to the area around Israel for the specific purpose of disrupting the Jewish state.They have been told that when Israel falls, the property and wealth the Jews enjoy will be theirs. These people are so radicalized after years of daily propaganda, where the Jews are held responsible for nearly all the Arab's problems, that thse people are no longer welcome in any Arab country because they most are no longer capable of productive work. They are only trained to protest and to fight Israel.


"The land was under Turkish control from 1517 to 1917 (ten times forty years), and Turkey destroyed this land thoroughly. The rulers enacted ridiculous laws; for example, one which required taxes to be paid for live trees. The people cut down the trees so they wouldn't have to pay taxes! The country therefore ended up in a very wretched condition, empty of trees and covered with rocks where once great forests had stood. Many authors, including Mark Twain, described the land as being devoid of any living creatures other than birds of prey and foxes.

But what of the people living in Israel? In 1864 about half the people of Jerusalem were Jews; about a third were Moslems. Hebron, Jerusalem, Tiberias all had semi-autonomous Jewish areas. When the Jews began returning to Israel in the mid-to-late 19th century, there were so few people living there, they could settle in most of the Holy Land without displacing anyone.

In 1920 the League of Nations designated British-occupied Palestine as a homeland for the Jewish people. Palestine then included all of what is now Israel, Jordan, and the West Bank. The land was no more than set aside for the Jews than the Arab nations revolted against the decision forcing Britain to designate the area that is now Jordan for the Arabs and install an Arab monarchy. Britain was politically protecting its oil sources but Israelis thereby lost over fifty percent of their land.

Jewish settlements created jobs to which neighboring Arabs were drawn. As Jewish settlements grew, Arab settlements grew up around them. The rise of Hitler caused more Jewish people to return to the land. But Islamic opposition and terrorism against the British and in favor of Hitler Germany persuaded England to reduce the number of Jewish people allowed to return at the time they most needed the land to escape the Nazi extermination camps. Britain was again worried about her Arab oil supply...".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:03 PM

pdq
I refer to the Palestinians, not as an ethnic group but as residents of Palestine**; this is fairly 'normal practice' I believe - nowhere I have ever heard it postulated that anyone 'elevates' the English to an ethnic group by referring to them by that term and indeed the word usage would be to precisely distinguish them from the neighbouring citizens of France or Scotland etc.

** or "Occupied Palestinian Territory", as used by the UN

But, you are right, it is difficult to conduct any discussion with someone unable to make this obvious distinction.

Your remark
'Since WWII, many Arab countries have sent their most worthless people, the bottom of Arab society, to the area around Israel for the specific purpose of disrupting the Jewish state.They have been told that when Israel falls, the property and wealth the Jews enjoy will be theirs. These people are so radicalized after years of daily propaganda, where the Jews are held responsible for nearly all the Arab's problems, that thse people are no longer welcome in any Arab country because they most are no longer capable of productive work. They are only trained to protest and to fight Israel.'

is too offensive to genuine refugees to even consider; I have no wish to even converse with someone who resorts to such malicious misrepresentation


As for history…

The Arab political status in the Mandate

'The British however made acceptance of the terms of the Mandate a precondition for any change in the constitutional position of the Arabs. For the Arabs this was unacceptable, as they felt that this would be "self murder". During the whole interwar period the British, appealing to the terms of the Mandate, which they had designed themselves, rejected the principle of majority rule or any other measure that would give an Arab majority control over the government of Palestine.

Immigration

'During the Mandate the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine, grew from one sixth to almost one third of the populations.
According to official records, 367,845 Jews and 33,304 non-Jews immigrated legally between 1920 and 1945
It was estimated that another 50–60,000 Jews and a small number of non-Jews immigrated illegally during this period. Immigration accounts for most of the increase of Jewish population, while the non-Jewish population increase was largely natural. These figures have been supported by later studies, though estimates of Arab immigration have been disputed.

Initially, Jewish immigration to Palestine met little opposition from the Palestinian Arabs. However, as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly, creating much Arab resentment.
The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each side for its own reasons

The Peel Commission

In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed a partition between a small Jewish state, whose Arab population had to be transferred, and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan. The proposal was rejected by the Arabs and by the Zionist Congress (by 300 votes to 158) but accepted by the latter as a basis for negotiations between the Executive and the British Government.

In the wake of the Peel Commission recommendation an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus, and Hebron. British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police, suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force.
The British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Jewish volunteers such as Yigal Alon, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley" by conducting raids on Arab villages. The squads used excessive and indiscriminate force

The Jewish militias the Stern Gang and Irgun used violence also against civilians, attacking marketplaces and buses.

The Revolt resulted in the deaths of 5,000 Palestinians and the wounding of 10,000. In total 10 percent of the adult male population was killed, wounded, imprisoned, or exiled The Jewish population had 400 killed; the British 200. Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency, the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.

N>B This perspective of 'history' is even handed, does not minimise the not very honourable role of the British and can be found (with references to the facts quoted) at wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:14 PM

here's another Fact, which I found to be re-assuring given all the heat and emotion around this and related issues....

Daniel Barenboim, world reknowned Israeli conductor, accepted honorary Palestinian citizenship in Jan. after performing a concert in Ramallah, saying that he hoped his new status would be an example of Israel-Palestinian co-existence. He is the founder of Diwan Orchestra whose members include Israelis, Palestinians, and citizens from Arab countries.

leave it to the artists and musicians to find the common ground... and actually do something positive about it

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:21 PM

Thanks for reminding us of that bankley, there are many people of good will working for the
'common ground'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:38 PM

I think that the Zionist cause is well past its sell by date...they are still there in the Middle East purely because of brute military strength and through the massive economic muscle and aid provided by the USA and other western governments.
There will be no 2 state solution because Israel will accept nothing but a series of bantustan type strips of land for the indiginous Palestinian people to live on with no power ,no freedom of movement and at the mercy of the Israeli state itself and any crazed armed Zionist settler who wants to shoot at or beat up a Palestinian.
There can only be a one state solution some time in the future and any Zionist who cannot accept that should return to New York or some other place but there will be no room in the new state for their thuggery and armed swaggering!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:45 PM

http://www.tirzahfirestone.com/html/bio.html journies through the Occupied Territories and says .....
'we must choose: Risking one's reputation or not speaking and risking one's soul?'

'This past year I have had to face the underbelly of my love of Zion. Like so many American Jews, I had been raised with the unquestioned narrative about Israel's righteousness, its humane practices, and the moral high ground upon which its policies are based. The painful deconstruction of these beliefs began with a journey through the Occupied Territories, where I encountered the shocking effects of my people's fear.

I saw a land sliced by concrete and barbed wire, a snaking wall 450 miles long. Yes, there has been good reason for fear—genuine security threats that have come through the gates and checkpoints. Nevertheless, I found myself questioning the holding back of women in labor, children in need of emergency blood transfusions. I heard stories, not only from Arabs, but from Israeli soldiers who struggled to "carry out orders" while innocent women and children died before their eyes.'

In the shadow of Zion
more news from the Common Ground**

**seeks to promote mutual understanding and offer hope, opportunities for dialogue and constructive suggestions that facilitate peaceful resolution of conflict
We publish and promote articles by local and international experts on current Middle East issues and the relationship between the West and Arab and Muslim communities.
The service is a non-profit initiative of Search for Common Ground, an international non-governmental organization (NGO), headquartered in Washington and Brussels, whose mission is to transform the way the world deals with conflict - away from adversarial confrontation towards cooperative solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:48 PM

My apologies that was Rabbi Tirzah Firestone, I quoted above

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:14 PM

Emma B,

If you regard these people as a distinct ethnic group because they live in a spacific geographic region, then you must be able to give the exact (or close to it) boundries to that territory. This is a serious question to you and needs to be addressed before a civilised discussuion can continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:15 PM

We oppose violence, suicide bombings and extremism. We oppose fanatics who are Palestinian and Arab, fanatics who are Israeli and Jewish. Peace must be made between Palestinians and Israelis, not Israelis and Egyptians, Israelis and Saudis, Israelis and Jordanians, Jews and Muslims.

A vision from Salam al-Ann!:

    Palestinians must start approaching the whole concept of communications in a broader more comprehensive way, instead of always focusing on writing Op-Eds, letters in anger or argument "against" something.

    Many voices of peace from Israeli are not often disseminated to Palestinian audiences, or that are circulated only among the small informal "dialogue groups" -- which sometimes achieve only limited results. Dialogue groups must have long range visions that lead to activism and community awareness.

    Creating a new organization called SALAM AL-ANN! (Palestinians for Peace Now) is essential to achieving a viable Palestinian State.

    Our agenda is very simple and clear. We do not negotiate peace, but we do advocate for peace and compromise and the following issues (generally expressed below):

       * Call for an independent Palestinian state with sovereignty in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and most of East Jerusalem (or in a shared Jerusalem). This means a Palestinian State that is viable and includes most of the land -- with only minor modifications made through land-for-land swaps. We need a movement to define exactly what we are expecting because clearly, Israelis are not hearing us.

       * Recognize Israel's sovereignty and security generally within the 1967 borders (some minor changes based on negotiations). This means accepting Israel as a Jewish State and saying it the way they need to hear it. We support a two-state solution, one Jewish and one Palestinian, both secure, sovereign and in borders defined pre-1967.
         
       * Support of the PRINCIPLE of the Palestinian Right of Return, but recognize that clarity for both sides must be realized. Israelis and Palestinians should accept that some refugees are expected to be allowed to return to former homes or lands in Israel.

          It is not possible, not realistic to expect all Palestinians will return. Some have established lives in other countries. But, we ask that Israel recognize its responsibilities to compensate the refugees and consider all family reunification seriously.

          We insist that Israel recognize its responsibility for causing the refugee problem and make every effort to work to compensate the refugees for the homes and lands that they lost. We would support similar demands made by Jews who fled Arab countries in the same manner.
         
       * Jerusalem -- a negotiated agreement that either results in sharing or Palestinian sovereignty in those areas of East Jerusalem that are not Jewish (the Wailing Wall plaza and Jewish sectors of East Jerusalem should rightly belong to the Israelis). Decided through negotiations.
         
       * A complete removal and dismantling of all settlements in the West Bank, Gaza Strip.
         
       * The negotiated status of certain settlements in or around Jerusalem that have been annexed into Israel (such as Ariel and Gilo, a settlement originally created as a security post that has since become a "Jerusalem neighborhood). The status of these settlements should be determined by negotiations and discussions and their futures based on equal land trades.
         
       * A firm stand against all forms of violence, but specifically by being responsible for those forms of violence that come from our community, specifically and clear, separate denunciation of violence by Palestinians against Israel. Why make this demand? Because we are responsible for ourselves. We cannot demand that Israel's government stop the violence against Palestinians if we do not first demand that we stop the violence against Israelis. This is a moral position we must accept and does not undermine our right to demand forcefully that Israel's government end its violence against Palestinians.
         
       * A call for Palestinians and Israelis to return to the formal negotiation process. To build a strong voice by both sides demanding that the representatives of both sides go back to the table and negotiate.
         
       * A call for both sides to bring the volume of anger and hatred down to a level that replaces emotion with reasoned and positive-intended passion. We can argue and we can disagree, but we don't need to hate.

    These are very simple concepts (expressed in general terms to convey the intent only) that must form the basis of a Palestinian effort in support of peace. We can fine-tune them through discussion.

    If you believe - really believe in compromise with Israel based on land-for-peace and the goal of a two-state solution, they you will support us. Agreeing to recognize Israel does not mean that we have to give up our souls, or our individual views of history. But it does mean that we look ahead, not backwards, and find a way to end the conflict based on compromise not violence, hatred or rejection of what is right and moral.

    Please circulate these principles and help us build

http://www.hanania.com/palestinianpeacenow.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:04 PM

It is very dificult to conduct a sane discussion with people who elevate the palestinian Arabs to a separate ethnic group. They are just plain Arabs.

This shows a tremendous amount of ignorance (and I would suggest, prejudice) about Arabs. The above quote is like saying Scottish and Welsh are not separate ethnic groups, they're just British.

It appears that the ethnic Philistines (aka Palestinians) left with the Jews and followed Mose. The current unhappy folks who spend all their energy trying to destroy Israel go back no father than the period of Islamic conquests around 700 AD.

This is false. You can't use the bible as an historical document in this case. In this case, at least, it's just a fiction. Genetic studies have shown that the people who are now called Palestinians and the Arab Jews originated in that very area (what is now Israel and occupied Palestine), with some extra genetic material provided by people passing through the area, since it was an important crossroads of civilization, and are more related to each other than they are to any other groups.

What came more recently to the region, and is probably what pdq is referring to, is the Arab language and the religion of Islam. But the people who are now referred to as the Palestinians are indigenous to the region.

What pdq and other people who use these kind of lies are doing is denying a people their history, and that is cultural genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:08 PM

I have a hell of a lot of respect for Daniel Barenboim.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:35 PM

GUEST
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:21 PM

before you get deleted, as I sincerely hope you do, let me say once more....

Isreal is a country made up of its individual citizens many of whom do NOT support the policies of the ruling party.

To 'condemn' a whole country for the beliefs and actions of its rulers is unacceptable whether that elected party is Hamas, Likud or the Bush administration!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:43 PM

I need to correct something I said...

Genetic studies have shown that the people who are now called Palestinians and the Arab Jews originated in that very area

The term "Arab Jews" in this case is not entirely correct, since there are also Arab Jews who come from other places as well. I should have said, some Arab Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:28 PM

It's still very important to understand what Emma's saying in this regard, though. There are many Israelis who do not support the policies of their government and who are just as much the victims of them as anyone else. And there are many, many Israelis, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who are working very hard to correct the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem viz. SALAM AL-ANN!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:01 PM

All of the generalizations and accusations on this and the other Middle East/Israel/Zionism threads on here the last week or so bear to light one word-change. Whichever side of the argument one is on here, it seems to me that the one thing that neither side wants is status quo. Arguments about who was responsible for a war 40 years are of scant matter to what should be done today (CarolC, that's not to say that it should be forgotten, whichever version you or I believe, but one must move on as well). There was a time in the 1980's when I never thought South Africa would be where it is today. There was a time when I thought the same about Northern Ireland as well. Believe it or not CarolC, I do believe some of the points you have made, but at the same time, I don't believe one can only hold Israel solely responsible for all of these issues. IRA violence was never justified, but Protestant para military strikes were equally unjstifiable, as was a shoot to kill policy by the British. I'm cutting through it all here folks, so please don't cut and paste a specific post you made where you said something to counter what I wrote, ok! I guess as I see the number of postings that have been growing on this subject matter, it just wears on me, yet I feel compelled to check in as well. I know that posting on here is not going to do anything other than swaying a few people one way or the other (and that's what we do on here),but lets face it, our arguing isn't accomplishing anything much now is it? I'm sure a lot of us on here do things like signing petitions and such, about issues we feel strongly about. I don't have the answers, regarding this and many other issues. Hell, I was a foreign policy major in college, but that hasn't changed anything! Regarding this issue, it seems like since status quo is not an option for either player in this option, we need to forget about much of the past and move on, find out the areas that 100% we can agree on, and move on from there. I know there are people out there, doing just that, and that's where I will throw my support behind.
Regards, robert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Thanks bobad and thanks Robert too.

I was only thinking last night of the fact that there is not always an unambiguous definition of a 'terrorist'.

The IRA, the ANC and Hamas flourished and bombed in the oxygenated atmosphere of inequality and/or repression.
Remove that oxygen and.......who knows...

Today some of these 'terrorists' have been redefined by history as 'freedom fighters' and have become respected statesmen others, who suffered 'judicial execution' (like James Connelly) or met an illegal execution (like Steve Biko) have become national heroes.

from a recent article in The Guardian

'Hamas condemns the Holocaust'

We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression

'One recent approach, which seems to be part of the wider attempt to isolate the elected Palestinian leadership, is to portray Hamas and the population of the Gaza strip as motivated by anti-Jewish sentiment, rather than a hostility to Zionist occupation and domination

The Palestinian people aspire to freedom, independence and peaceful coexistence with all their neighbours.

No less than 700,000 Palestinians have been detained at least once by the Israeli occupation authorities since 1967. Hundreds of thousands have so far been killed or wounded. Little concern seems to be caused by all of this or by the erection of an apartheid wall that swallows more than 20% of the West Bank land or the heavily armed colonies that devour Palestinian land in a blatant violation of international law.'

quoted from Bassem Naeem, the minister of health and information in the Hamas-led Palestinian administration in Gaza.

There is hope for a 'reconciliation' process.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:26 PM

For a five minute video sequence showing the disgusting humiliating and provocative treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Zionist armed settlers in Hebron, a Palestinian city,go to Liveleak and scroll down.
The sequence is called LIFE IN A CAGE...A PALESTINIAN FAMILY and it is an affront to any form of decency.
Albert

There is a second clip of orthodox but anti zionist Jewish worshippers in a synagogue being beaten up by Israeli security guards
which is also an appalling sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:23 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem

Yes, this is true. Arafat really sold the Palestinians out when he agreed to Oslo, since it didn't provide for any kind of endgame, or provide for an end to the occupation. It also didn't grant the Palestinians the status of human being or confer upon them any rights whatever, or citizenship to any country, or status as a nation All of the Palestinian governments have really been, more than anything else, puppets of the Israeli government. None of them has represented the interests of the Palestinians at all. Pressure needs to be applied to the government in occupied Palestine to correct this situation, just as it needs to be applied to the governments of the US and Israel, and there are many Palestinians who are involved in this work.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:35 PM

irishenglish, if the intent of the government of Israel is to continue the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians until they are all removed from occupied Palestine, and if the US continues to support Israel in this endeavor financially and with its UN vetoes, the only way to bring peace to that region is for the people in the US and Israel to make them stop.

The problem is that many people don't accept the idea that Israel is, in fact, conducting ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. They are, and they are also doing it to the non-Jewish Arab-Israelis, and there is more than ample proof of this. But in order to help people see clearly what is being done in their names and with their money, it is necessary to show what has been done in the past, along with what is being done in the present.

I will use your analogy of apartheid in South Africa. Do you think it would have been possible to end apartheid in South Africa if nobody in Western countries or in South Africa itself was allowed to talk about it and to discuss why it was wrong? Of course it wouldn't. It was because of campaigns much like those that are being conducted on behalf of the Palestinians today that South Africa was pressured into ending its apartheid. If people had tried to silence discussion about South African apartheid the way people (you included, aparently) are doing on the subject of apartheid in occupied Palestine, South Africa would still have apartheid today.

You don't help to correct these kinds of problems by telling people not to talk about them. That will only ensure that they continue indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:33 PM

Let me just say this also, irishenglish...

Institutionalized social injustice never ever ends on its own. Slavery didn't end on its own, segregation in the US didn't end on its own. Apartheid in South Africa didn't end on its own. And it wasn't governments that led the way to getting rid of these forms of social injustice either.

It was social justice movements that did all of the work to bring these things to an end in the places where they existed. One of the challenges that social justice movements have always had is to inform people who have been purposely and heavily misinformed by the governments of the countries where these forms of social injustice have occurred. Governments of countries with institutionalized forms of social injustice use heavy propaganda to justify their activities, and they are often very successful in shaping people's perceptions so that they are favorable to the governments' agendas.

If one wants to end social injustice, it is always necessary to show people how they have been misled, and help them see the truth about what has been going on. It is also necessary, when a government has presented a distorted version of history for the purpose of concealing and/or justifying what it is doing, to correct this distortion of history. And in the case of the Palestinians, this distortion of history has been an enormous libel on them, and this libel has been the cause of a lot of suffering for and the deaths of a lot of Palestinians.

When someone presents us with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the truth, those of us who believe in social justice will tell that person that the Protocols hoax is a vicious lie that is being used to generate and spread hatred toward Jews. It is important to do this because, 1. it is a lie that spreads hatred, and 2. spreading hatred causes suffering, and 3. a lie like that one can and will be used as a justification for committing violence against Jews, and in some cases, even killing them. It is no different with the lies that the government of Israel has been promoting about the Palestinians and also about Israel's neighbors. These lies have been and are being used to justify killing a hell of a lot of people. And a lot of those people are civilians. And these lies are also being used to justify the apartheid and ethnic cleansing that Israel is forcing on the Palestinians.

Just as with the Protocols, these lies and distortions of history must be corrected. Not only because doing so is the only way to have social justice, but also because it's the only way to have peace in the Middle East. For this reason, it is not only appropriate for us to revisit what has happened in that region in the past, but it is absolutely necessary to do so.

Have you watched the video with the two former members of the Israeli military that I posted a link to? They were saying that the Israeli public is very misled by the government about what is going on in occupied Palestine, and that if the public really knew what is going on in those areas, they wouldn't stand for it. It's time to get the word out.

You may not feel that you can be involved in helping to do this work. There are many ways that people can help. But it doesn't help the Palestinians, or even the cause of peace in the Middle East to try to silence those who are doing this work. And while you may not be aware of the difference these efforts make, even in places like online forums, I can see it, and the difference I can see is enormous.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:43 PM

When you're done, CarolC, please turn out the lights. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:41 PM

I think I'd rather turn a few more lights on, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad - PM
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem viz. SALAM AL-ANN!

I see that the post I was responding to in the post of mine that you are responding to here was deleted, bobad. I was responding to an anonymous guest who didn't want to make a distinction between the general population of Israel and the Israeli government. I was disagreeing with this position. Believe it or not, I do speak out when I see people posting obviously hateful things about Israelis and Jews, and I always have.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:14 AM

Carol C-"If people had tried to silence discussion about South African apartheid the way people (you included, aparently) are doing on the subject of apartheid in occupied Palestine, South Africa would still have apartheid today."

HOW DARE YOU, HOW ABSOLUTELY DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF THAT. You don't even know me, now you are analyzing a few lines I wrote and accusing me of apathy and neglect, and indifference. Well, how's this for apathy, I don't care about anything you say.

Moreover, you plainly do not get both the reasoning and the point of my posting (Did you miss the part where I said I agreed with you some of the time, or do you only key in on what you want to key in on?)

Where did I say anywhere for people to not talk about these isssues, about me not helping to correct the problems? I didn't Carol. I said discussing this on a forum with people with entrenched viewpoints doesn't help much. That's why for the last 22 years or so Carol I have been to rallies, I have signed petitions, I have written letters, and will continue to do so. See, you really don't know me at all, so your 5 minute judgement upon me is baseless. Tell you what, I'll take the high road here, because since you don't get it, that's what I was doing with my post, and I'm going to move along. You continue your ungrounded attacks upon other people, you continue trying to browbeat people into the belief that you are the only authority on these matters, and I'm going to do something positive to compensate for it. Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:27 AM

Anti-Semitic Hate Speech in the Name of Islam

...satellite channels like the Hamas-run Al-Aqsa are helping to bring a message of hate and intolerance to Europe. The effects of such hate preaching can already be felt in Germany.
...During one excursion to the German Historical Museum, a group of Muslim youth gathered in front of a replica of a gas chamber in Auschwitz and applauded.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:35 AM

Another lovely day. Morning, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:19 AM

" think it's as inaccurate, however, to suggest that Hamas and "the Palestinians" are one and the same thing as it is to say that the Kahanists and "the Jews" are one and the same thing. Of course, we know that in both cases, they are not."

However, Hamas is the government in power in Gaza while Kahane's Kach Party is banned in Israel because of its overt racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:24 AM

G of E: Do NOT start confusing this issue with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:26 AM

I hear you, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:06 AM

Sorry, irishingenglish. It looks like I misunderstood you. It looked to me like you were telling me I should stop talking about it. A lot of people do that, and it's possible that I've become a bit reflexive about it.

I said discussing this on a forum with people with entrenched viewpoints doesn't help much.

This is where we disagree. I don't see what I'm doing as talking to people with entrenched viewpoints. What I see myself doing is correcting a lot of historical disinformation in a public forum that is read by a lot more people than just those with entrenched viewpoints. You and I are aware of the entrenched viewpoint people because those are the ones who respond, but I know for a fact that a lot of people read these threads who don't post to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:11 AM

However, Hamas is the government in power in Gaza while Kahane's Kach Party is banned in Israel because of its overt racism.

Yes, nevertheless, Hamas is not even all of the people in Gaza. It's only some of them. It would not be any more right to conflate all of the people in Gaza with Hamas than it would be to conflate all of the people in Israel with the terrorists who became the members of the Israeli government. People say that the Jewish terrorist groups disbanded after Israel became a state, and for some reason they think that just wipes the slate clean on the records of the people who committed acts of terrorism in those organizations. But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:31 AM

"But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas."

YOUR racism is showing, lady. Make it parallel.

But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas, the Palestinian's terrorist government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:46 AM

No, Peace, it's your racism that is showing.

The members of the terrorist paramilitary groups who committed terrorist acts such as blowing up the King David hotel (and many others) did go on to become leading members of the government of Israel. And not only that, they continued to commit (or arrange to have others commit) terrorist acts after they became the government (Google "Lavon affair").

It's not racist to point these things out. They did happen. What is racist is for you say that we can only talk about the bad things done by the groups you personally hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:53 AM

Yeah, yeah, Carol, yeah yeah.

Same old shit from the same old shit stirrer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:55 AM

Ya know, people could go to damned near ANY 'political' thread you've ever posted to and it ends up the same old way. Carol giving everyone HER views and trying to disallow their views. Have a look at yourself, lady. And have a NICE day!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:15 PM

Peace, you speak what I've been thinking. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:19 PM

Like I said, you can make personal attacks, Peace, but it won't do any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:26 PM

BTW,

Carol giving everyone HER views and trying to disallow their views.

You're the one who is using bully tactics to try to silence those with whom he disagrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:29 PM

who is a 'terrorist'?

The African National Congress (ANC) was designated as a terrorist organisation by South Africa's old apartheid regime and its supporters.

South Africa's apartheid government banned the ANC in 1960, imprisoning or forcing into exile its leaders.

The ANC's armed wing, uMkhontho weSizwe, which was set up after the ANC was banned in South Africa in 1960.

Mr Mandela, who turns 90 this year, was released in 1990 after spending 27 years in prison.

He then became the country's first post-apartheid-era president, before retiring after serving one term in office.

However, Nelson Mandela and other members of the African National Congress remain on the US terrorist watchlist.
ANC members who wish to travel to the USA have to get waivers from the State Department.
The former South African Ambassador to the USA was flagged and delayed when she attempted to visit a dying cousin -- by the time the red-tape had been cut, her cousin was dead.

Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., chairman of the House International Relations Committee, is pushing a bill that would remove current and former ANC leaders from the watch lists. Supporters hope to get it passed before Mandela's 90th birthday July 18.

"What an indignity," Berman said. "The ANC set an important example: It successfully made the change from armed struggle to peace. We should celebrate the transformation."
                           
                               .-.

Few politicians in recent Irish history have divided opinion as much as Gerry Adams. To his followers, he is regarded as one of the best leaders the republican movement has ever had.
To his fiercest unionist opponents, he is at best little more than an apologist for IRA gunmen, and at worst, a member of its highest command.

Interned by the British government in 1971 his voice was not allowed to be broadcast in the UK.

'I will never sit down with Gerry Adams ... He'd sit with anyone. He'd sit down with the devil. In fact, Adams does sit down with the devil.'
Ian Paisley quoted in The Independent, February 13 1997

In 2007 Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams sat side by side to announce they had reached agreement to share power from May 8 in a devolved Northern Ireland government.

The accord between the veteran unionist firebrand and the leader of a militant republican movement that once killed opponents was hailed in London and Dublin as the defining moment.

With goodwill and mutual understanding equality and reconciliation IS possible the strategy is to reduce the grievances that fuel violence - step one in this journey is to acknowledge them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:30 PM

Since its very foundation in 1948 Israel has been a terrorist state acting in a terrorist way against both the indiginous Palestinian population which it has driven into exile with no right of return or which it has brutalised,criminalised and corraled in Gaza,on the occupied West Bank, in the refugee camps and in Jerusalem.
In addition it has bombed the civilian population of Lebanon and elsewhere time and time again.
Only last week the Israeli military command admitted to using cluster bombs against hevily populated civilian areas in Lebanon when it launched its invasion almost two years ago.
In Gaza there are official reports emerging about the terror tactics being used against a refugee city of over one million people which includes choking off water,fuel and food and the indiscriminate and callous bombing of civilians leading to many casualties including women and children killed or maimed by Israeli bombs and shellfire.That's state terror !
albert