Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

"I think flicking through folders of words to decide what you're going to sing next when others are doing their bit can be a bit offputting."

Guilty as charged. Panic makes me rifle through my little binder o'songs even though I typically put a number of planned songs in the front, just so I won't do this. And yes I need the words because brain will freeze in mid song.   I do get fearful through out the session that maybe I don't know a song well enough or feel the mood isn't right for what I previously selected. I try to do my searches for another song on the sly though not always successful.

As to noise and talking and crisp munching, though I typically pay attention to performers, I like it kind of boisterous when it comes to my turn (only in sing around sessions - no floor spots for me). The busier and noisier it is the less inclined I am to panic. I feel kind of hidden in the crowd and that lends me confidence. I tend to really belt out in that "safe" environment.

Quite daunting though, when the room shuts up and people start filtering in from other rooms and from outside the pub once I start singing. This is precisely when I find I need the words.   

Moral of the story? Please go easy on us toddler and/or doddering folkies. We are learning and/or fogetting how to behave in folk settings.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

The question remains unanswered as far as I'm concerned.
Should there be a standard beneath which a club does not drop? - it really doesn't get any more complicated than that.
I wonder how a local amateur dramatic or light opera society would react to somebody knocking on their door demanding a part in their latest production - it seems acceptable behaviour at folk clubs, judging by some of the responses here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

"Over the past couple of years I have had some of the most enjoyable times of my life playing music and singing and I owe a huge debt to the people who have encouraged and put up with my improving efforts over the last 6 years. I think that had I been faced with the attitudes of some of the people on this thread then I would probably not have had the resilience to have kept trying because I spent the best part of forty-eight years not playing in front of people. Earlier this year I sang at a beer festival in front of a few hundred people and there is no way in the world I would have - or could have - done that five years ago."
And having experienced that from others having the generousity to extend the same kindness and encouragemnet to others.
Thank the big capo in the sky there are more people around like Nick
than there are the others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:55 PM

I saw Les Barker reading from a book, He didn't half make it sound good!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

It seems very clear to me that there are different sorts of folk clubs - those who welcome performers of all standards and are ready to give encouragement, support and help when needed - then those which insist on a standard which many can never reach,although not through the want of trying.For heavens sake whats wrong with giving EVERYONE who is keen enough to attend a song or two if they want - with or without the words, which so many catters are saying they find helpful? I don't mean we don't want to encourage people to develop and improve as singers but we are not talking concerts here!

Yer pays yer money and yer makes yer choice!

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

RichardBridge,please show what these conceited remarks were.here are my posts.
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM

The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
Jim Carroll.
EVERYONE, PLEASE TAKE NOTE.
If you are serious about encouraging new singers run a workshop.[jim carroll].
yes,and perhaps instrument workshops too.
The sign of a good club [imo]is among other things good organisation,it is perfectly possible and can be acceptable if a weak singer,is followed by a good singer or a resident,so this is the reponsibilty of the organiser or mc.
in this way singers who may or may have potential[but need help] can be encouraged,and sandwiched between good performers,making it more acceptable for the paying public.
Bad Manners,does come in all shapes and sizes,it is the responsibility of the organiser,to have a decent mc,so that everyone gets a proper introduction,and gets the guests name correct[it happens more frequently than one thinks]
some while ago,I was guesting at a folk festival.and the MC[a professional performer himself,introduced me ;now we have Dick Miles,what sort of a bloody introduction is that.
this MC was paid to be at that festival,whether he likes the performer or not,he is paid to present and introduce people properly,this involves at the very least,stating what the performer does [plays concertina sings traditional songs is over here on tour from Ireland etc etc]and convincing the audience that the person is good.
3.From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM
4 .Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

running workshops is good but running workshops successfully requires skill and diplomacy and tact.
firstly singers should not be told they must sing in a certain way[stylistically],
workshops should concentrate upon improving technique,suggestions can be made,directing the singer to recordings of differing singers that the person might benefit from listening to.,and then let the person chhose their own direction,suggestions can be made that a singer might be more suited to singing shanties or whatever,but that is about as far as you should go.
the singer has to make their own decisions,telling people what to/ or how to sing will often be counter productive and is bad manners.
it is also bad manners,to say to a performer while they are on stage: we dont allow political songs here,or you must only sing songs from your own culture or in your own accent[ Ibelieve this is what happened to Lisa Turner,a fine blues singer at the ballad and blues club,or was it Maccoll/Seegers singers club].
A club may have rules,but the time to sort that out is not on stage,but during the break or afterward

Songs should be performed without any crutches.
if a performer forgets the words,they should keep cool, ad lib,and/or carry on to the next verse,that is what performing is all about,
5.Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

,when I started as a floor singer 1971,the competition was tough,nobody ever sang songs with words in front of them.
I can remember going out to the toilet to run through words ,to make sure I had it right,if you werent any good you didnt get a chance to sing the next week,if a performer forgot a word they carried on,we had to learn how to perform,as we were doing it,and that[ imo] is the only way.
I experienced all those things as a newbie performer,but I got up and did it,I practised a lot before I went on,if i played a wrong chord aor sang a wrong word [I let it go ,and made sure I got the next verse right].
making a mistake can happen to anyone,the most important thing is to learn to feel at ease,whilst performing,[this is what the alexander technique is about],throw away your word sheets,if you make a mistake,make it up or make a joke.,carry on,nerves have to be conquered.
on the other hand Iwould never criticise anyone in a club if they were singing with words [if I was guesting,or whatever],Iam not that bad mannered,I am just stating my opinion
those are my posts to date Richard Bridge,what the fuck are you on about,you may be having a bad day,but you want to get your facts right,what is conceited in those posts.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

>>I wonder how a local amateur dramatic or light opera society would react to somebody knocking on their door demanding a part in their latest production - it seems acceptable behaviour at folk clubs, judging by some of the responses here.

My experience of amateur dramatics is very much that people come along with a wide spectrum of talent and are usually found a spot somewhere within a production which echoes that talent. Much like folk clubs though they rarely DEMAND (your words) but ask.

Where things perhaps differ is that in some folk places the people who run things seem to have no mechanism for dealing with people who have a surfeit of confidence and/or a dearth of talent. Places that are clear about what the are trying to do (whatever that might be) rarely seem to stumble at that minor hurdle, and my experience seem to deal with it quite easily.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

I urge everyone to go back and read 'Treewind's wise words of 21st October, 7:31 am. To quote him:

"It's not about how good you are, it's about how much effort you make."

Exactly!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:10 PM

If you can't see the conceit, the only reply I could make would appear rude, and as yet you have not quite driven me to that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Marje
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM

In many of the posts above, there's an assumption that the inept and badly prepared singers are new, inexperienced performers who would appreciate an older singer's advice, or would be glad of a workshop to hone their skills. But in my experience it's often the other way about - the occasional new, younger singer will often be very good, or at least appear to be making an effort, whereas the worst offenders are older members who've been at it for years and are not getting any better, learning new songs, or even trying to improve. The club could put on a singers' workshop but they wouldn't be interested in attending.
As Shimrod has said above, it's laziness that's at the root of it, and I don't really know what clubs should be doing to address this.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:44 PM

NO I cant,I am stating my experiences,these include running several folk clubs,and having been professional for 30 plus years.,
these are facts,they have nothing to do with my ability as a performer,now I would appreciate it if you stopped attacking me personally.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:46 PM

my comments are adressed to Richard Bridge,you have been rude,already.now stop wasting everyones time.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Ok this seems to be getting a little heated,with or without reason.
Which is a shame.
So if I get the next round in can we be nice while we drink to each others differences?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Bruce M. Baillie
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

I'm with Captain swing and wee little drummer on this one, far too many precious people around these days who are fucking useless and demand people to be quiet while they perform something boring, crap, or just plain uninteresting. Why shouldn't you yawn if someone is boring? As long as you do it quietly it's OK by me. I've played in plenty of pubs and bars where I've not been listened to and frankly, not been expected to be listened to! you put up with it! If you are any good you transcend it!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:52 PM

"now we have Dick Miles,what sort of a bloody introduction is that.
this MC was paid to be at that festival,whether he likes the performer or not,he is paid to present and introduce people properly,this involves at the very least,stating what the performer does [plays concertina sings traditional songs is over here on tour from Ireland etc etc]and convincing the audience that the person is good."

Introduction not good enough for the captain.

"Songs should be performed without any crutches.
if a performer forgets the words,they should keep cool, ad lib,and/or carry on to the next verse,that is what performing is all about"

Other performers not good enough for the captain.

"running workshops is good but running workshops successfully requires skill and diplomacy and tact"

Workshops not good enough for the captain.

"workshops should concentrate upon improving technique"

Other people's singing not good enough for he captain.

"when I started as a floor singer 1971,the competition was tough,nobody ever sang songs with words in front of them.
I can remember going out to the toilet to run through words ,to make sure I had it right,if you werent any good you didnt get a chance to sing the next week,if a performer forgot a word they carried on,we had to learn how to perform,as we were doing it,and that[ imo] is the only way.
I experienced all those things as a newbie performer,but I got up and did it,I practised a lot before I went on,if i played a wrong chord aor sang a wrong word [I let it go ,and made sure I got the next verse right"

The rest of us are not as good as teh captain.

""The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that" EVERYONE, PLEASE TAKE NOTE. "

The rest ofour techniques (is that what folk song singing is about?) are not as good as teh captain.


"Here are some facts,I have ben professional for 35 years, made 4 cds ,5 lps,one of which Martin Carthy played guitar,one of which A Concertina Compilation,featured John Kirkpatrick. neither of these two would associate with me on a recording if they did not rate me.
Dave Bryant regularly booked me at clubs he ran. Iwas gigging before Eliza"

Yes, no-one has as much respect as the captain


"please show what these conceited remarks were"

I think so. Remember, the recordings of your performances are out there on youtube. Are you really sure you are as good as you seem to say you are? If not, how do you justify looking down on so many?

I can't say I've found Jim Carrol's performances electronically preserved on the tube for posterity (yet) - so he might be as good as he seems here to assert that he is.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM

Hey ! for a while I thought this thread was getting boring - now it's quite entertaining - a punch-up on a thread called Folk Club Manners what more could you want ? - I'm quite looking forward to the next installment !

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM

I think Mr Miles and Mr Bridge should each post one song on YouTube and we can vote for it. Winner gets to stick his tongue out at the loser.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM

Nice one Gervase, any takers?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:50 AM

Richard,
"I can't say I've found Jim Carrol's performances electronically preserved on the tube for posterity (yet) - so he might be as good as he seems here to assert that he is."
Please read what I wrote about my protracted but highly enjoyable career as a singer (21 Oct 08 - 03:40 AM ) - I am no longer a singer and I have never claimed any great merits for my singing when I was doing it regularly.
Nowadays my interest is confined to the survival of the music I have devoted over two thirds of my life to.
I have always argued that folk song will only survive if it is taken seriously as a performing art (please read my quote of MacColl on work and pleasure before howling about po-faced singing). If people think that the way ahead is to throw open the floor for wannabe singers to practice in public - sorry - beg to differ.
Nick has the right of it when he says about amateur dramatic societies - "people come along with a wide spectrum of talent and are usually found a spot somewhere within a production which echoes that talent" - rather a far cry from turning up with your crib sheet and automatically assuming that you will be given a spot. I would have to take both shoes off to count the number of sing-around clubs I have never re-visited where the wannabes outnumber the singers who remember the words and the tune and sound as if they know AND ENJOY what they are singing about.
I spent twenty years involved in workshops being helped with my singing and hopefully helping others to become better singers - I even started one in Manchester many years ago.
Surely the way forward is the same as the reply the lady received when she asked "How do I get to The Carnegie Hall" - "Practice lady, practice".
Jim Carroll
PS Have just re-read my posting - not very well put together I'm afraid, but it's very difficult to concentrate over the sound of clashing egos - and not just Richard and the Cap'n's

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:13 AM

I wold like to make clear that I make no claim to be better than the captain, nor even as good. What I object to is his claim to be able to tell everyone how to do it better. Not many people have earned that right.

It's rather ironic in that I do practice quite a lot, and do make a point of seeking to attain a standard in what I do (and I may or may not succeed) - but I don't think that those who simply "have a go" deserve the condescension, and I am certainly prepared to go to bat for them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

Quite often the situation occurs where you get a good singer/performer who brings along their partner/wife/husband who can struggle through a song with a bit of help.

I think that it is only fair to let these folk have a go, rather than have to sit around passively all night. Part of the attraction of a singaround for me is its interactivity - they may even get quite good in the end.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:34 AM

I do think that quoting performances on Utube is a bit unfair.These are put there free of charge for others to listen to.They are normally home made performances and not studio recordings.OK some use them for promotion of themselves,but mostly it is a bit of fun,with beginners attempting to perform in public for the first time.The same applies for Folk Clubs a scared person gets up on stage in front of an audience to start off a possible Folk career.All performances no matter how bad are accepted ,they get applause and from that beginning we get many of the big stage names we know today.If a great big hook yanks them off the stage a minute into the act or someone shouts out "It's Crap ,get off the stage" then that performer will never be seen again.
The latter will be the way to kill off all future talent.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: fisheye
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

If musicians in an orchestra can have their music in front of them, why the hell can't folk singers. Over a number of years playing I have a quite a collection of tunes, chords and rhythms buried in my memory.
As for words I cannot even remember the name of the place I am playing in half the time,
as my eyes are getting bad it looks like i will be printing my word sheets on A3 paper.
As my style of playing is finger picking i do tend to make songs a little more complicated than the plectrum basher. So until i need braille to read the words i for one will continue
with relying on the printed word.

fisheye

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:28 AM

RicharBridge
at no point have I said that I am good,I have stated an opinion,which is that I think it is better to perfotrm without a crib sheet.
I said I was gigging before Eliza,[ that doesnt make me better,just different]but it does give me experience.
if you are going to quote me, please have the good manners to quote,without editing.,and thus altering my meaning. here is that post.Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

because I have a different opinion,I am subjected to a personal attack from Richard Bridge.
right Richard Bridge here are some facts,I have ben professional for 35 years, made 4 cds ,5 lps,one of which Martin Carthy played guitar,one of which A Concertina Compilation,featured John Kirkpatrick.
neither of these two would associate with me on a recording if they did not rate me.
Dave Bryant regularly booked me at clubs he ran.
Iwas gigging before Eliza[that doesnt mean I am any better,just different],but I have had long experience,so I am reasonably well qualified to talk about changes in folk clubs over 40 years.
both you and Amber have completely over reacted to my opinion,at what point have I been ungracious?
as Jim Carroll says its not about being better than someone,its about feeling at ease with songs so that youcan perform them well.
now richard bridge,get off my back.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM

I'll risk answering fisheye's question, though I don't want to decry those who prefer to have words in front of them, because I personally don't mind people having crib sheets.

That said, those who do use them might find it easier to understand the criticism above if they take on board this fact: There is a big difference between musicians, who are communicating non-verbal sounds, reading from paper, and singers reading from lyrics.

The reason is simple. When you sing you are in fact also speaking. Songs are in reality only modulated speech, and when you are speaking to someone it's considered polite to look at them. This is why politicians go to great lengths to memorise their speeches, or use 'invisble' autocues.

And it's why so many people are - in purely animal behavioural terms - 'offended' by orators or singers reading their words. They can't help it - it's a subliminal reaction. It's also why people like me who sing with their eyes closed are occasionally pilloried. It's the same reason people are offended, and also the same reason I have to do it.

When you are speaking to an individual, he 'mirrors' your expression - again, instinctively. But audiences don't do that. Some hold the most unexpected expressions - because the normal dialogue is not, in fact, working properly, and they are in a different place, mentally. It can be very unsettling. (I used to be alarmed by people - quite a few, usually - who frowned crossly throughout the gig, so I assumed they were hating it - only to have them come up at the end to wring my hand, praise me effusively and buy three CDs)!

So If I can see the audience (as one can in most folk clubs) I close my eyes, and take the stick. If there is stage lighting and the audience is invisible I can leave them open - and people are much happier.

Reading words has the same effect - accepting, of course, the other points raised above by both sides of the debate.

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

Tom, Dick, (where's Harry?)

I really wouldn't expect professional musicians such as yourselves to be using crib sheets or music.

However, there is a world of difference between expectations of top professional entertainers and those in a singaround. Let people use whatever they need to use to make their music (except pianos obviously!!)....we should all applaud their efforts.

....But only let the competent appear in front of a paying audience...... especially when this includes non-folkies.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

Iwould like to make my opinions clear.
Ihave been character assasinated by Richard Bridge,firstly he has mis quoted my posts by careful editing,then he has claimed that I have said that Iam good[which I havent]
I prefer to see performers, amateurs or otherwise not using crib sheets.
however recently I was at Robin Hoods Bay,folk club and a woman sang Wahitby Whaler,from a crib sheet[i think]and sang it well,but she was in my opinion an exception,most people I have seen using crib sheets have not performed very well[and in my opinion would perform better without, even if they forgot the occasional word].
I am entitled to an opinion [just as Richard Bridge is]without being called conceited.
I if I was guesting in a folk club or a punter ,I would never PASS ANY PUBLIC COMMENT ON A PERFORMER,that is bad manners,IF they asked me for my opinion,I would try and explain my viewpoint,and encourage them not to use printed words,that is how Ifeel and Iam entitled to state my opinion on this forum,without my words being twisted and edited to have adifferent meaning,
my comments are not SUBSTANTIALY different from some others here like Will fly and Breezy[another long time gigging performer].
So why has Bridge singled me out for this unpleasantness,are we no longer allowed to have different opinions.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:57 AM

"If musicians in an orchestra can have their music in front of them, why the hell can't folk singers?" Yes, but the soloist standing in front of them doesn't normally. They practise, practise, practise in preparation for a public performance.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM

Tom Bliss,
Thanks for that insight - never thought of it that way. Even when a singer closes his/her eyes to sing, they tend to turn the head towards the listener, giving the impression of eye-contact.
Richard
"What I object to is his claim to be able to tell everyone how to do it better. Not many people have earned that right"
My old mum used to say "Stick your bum out of the window and somebody is sure to come along and paint a face on it".
Perform publicly and you invite comment. On the whole folk criticism and self-criticism is gentle enough to be anodyne almost to the point of non-existence, and therefore useless. Have only ever come across two critics in the folk world who can be described as 'vindictive', both being 'career reviewers' attempting to make up for their own shortcomings by tearing down the work of others, but they are rare enough to be ignored (as they largely are). Don't really think any of us is above criticism and advice, do you? You don't have to agree with it and surely it's better made in the open than behind the back. Having said that, as the Cap'n inferred earlier, criticism needs to be delivered with a modicum of sensitivity (Cap'n?).
Re standards.
How is this for an idea? Why can't clubs organise the occasional unpublicised casual singarounds apart from the set club evenings in order to get new singers used to singing in front of audiences. Should they feel that the new singers are up to it, they might extend it to include advice sessions.
As I see it, the future of folk song depends on drawing new people on to the scene, and that is almost certainly going to have to happen through the clubs (certainly not concerts).
If the standard of singing is so low (or even so varied) as to merit the description 'professional amateurism' (Alex Campbell used to call it 'Near enough for folk music) it will deserve all the derision it attracts and will remain the poor relative of the performing arts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

They are exact quotes, without editing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Northerner
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

Well, I may as well enter the fray.

I had a long time out of singing at folk club because of health problems. I still am a bit nervous so do use a crib sheet when singing a song that I am working on or that I haven't sung in a while. It's more about being nervous, really, than lack of rehearsal. Once I am comfortable with the song the crib sheet goes. I never, ever use a crib sheet on a guest night, only on a singaround night. I am perfectly happy to see performers using crib sheets or dots on singaround nights - that's the place where we are trying out material or improving it. But crib sheets from anyone on a guest night, definitely not. If I don't have material at a suitable standard on a guest night then I sit quietly and listen. Of course, I would like a guest to hear me, and hopefully enjoy it, so that is a good incentive to bring material up to a certain standard of performance.

What really annoys me is people who are not good listeners to my stories and getting comments that they are children's stories. None of my stories are children's stories. All of them are of suitable length and well-rehearsed. I put in a lot of time looking for stories that I hope people will enjoy. I am no longer a novice but am now doing some professional work, including work with some top performers during the summer. I believe there is a lot of ignorance in folk clubs about storytelling but other performers should at least try to be reasonably professional in their comments - particularly if they are also trying to do some professional performing work.   I have recently started a storytelling circle but don't know yet if this is a viable long-term venture - we are a fairly small group. I am always professional in my conduct towards other performers - I just wish I got the same treatment from others. It is only a few people - why do a few people have to spoil things? Most people are very supportive.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:29 AM

I was a member of Jim Carroll's "Mutual Improvement Society" (The Manchester Critics), and I considered it a privilege.

I don't want to name names, at this stage at least, but it seems to me that if "you" (or 'one', if preferred) need your ego balmed before you get your instrument out of its case ; or if you have to present a CV in the hope of being taken seriously ; then in my (admittedly) limited experience as a singer of folk songs before the booze got to me -
IMABHO, as a denizen of the folk demi-monde, you're in the wrong box.

It was my experience that a thin skin, or an over-inflated ego, was a recipe for a good piss-taking.

Played for and got, I think - if the cap fits, wear the fucking thing.

(Seven to two I get accused of trolling. Any takers ?)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM

Well Captain Birdseye is famous for his fish fingers anyway - or was it frozen peas?

As the eye of a fish says, an orchestra has sheet music in front of them as well as a conductor.

Mind you I don't think the argument was about sheet music. and come on the orchestra are probably playing something with more that 3 chords and there are dozens of 'em playing together.

It was about having the words in front of you whilst performing. I don't see anything wrong with it, if the performance is good. Mind you when you see a bloke perform the same song 3 or 4 times a week for 10 years still with a crib sheet you begin to wonder ... and it's only got 2 verses!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:03 PM

"I have been busy this week and only managed to learn the tune. So I have brought along with me the lyrics on paper. I am going to give you all one and whilst I play, would you mind singing it."

As ours is concert style, we now tell poeple to turn their mobiles off and refrain from talking whilst a song or tune is being performed.

Our MC has now got to talking about crisps before we start. She says "If you must eat crisps whilst the performance is on, can you please suck them in order to keep the noise down" or something like that.

It can be a bit awekward telling somebody to shut up in the middle of a concert. I did it once to a guy who was constantly talking and his voice was quite loud. I was across the other side of the room and waited for the song to finish and then shouted to the guy to please be quite during songs. He just looked at me. So I shouted it again. Again no response. He just looked at me. Suddenly his daughter said "Do you mean my dad". I assumed the bloke was her dad and said yes and was just about to say something more, and she said "Oh sorry, he's deaf, so he can't hear you".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM

We've got books full of songs. It's just not practical to learn every one of them, but we don't use them on guest nights unless a particular song is requested and we don't know all the words.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM

LOL Les - if his hearing was that bad why come to a concert?

I use a crib sheet when I'm not quite sure of the words but do try to only glance down when really neccesary and, for the main part, do try to sing out to the audience. For me, it spoils the whole mood of a song to have someone stop part way through because they can't remember the next line, particularly when they labour the point and keep going over and over until they remember it, or go back and start the song again.

Woodsie - you ain't far wrong - I've been at a couple of clubs where they have someone like that and that really is taking the biscuit IMHO.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

Sorry folks - don't understand this 'only on guest nights' bit.
As far as I'm concerned a club should stand and fall by its regular singers - they are the constants who shape the club and set the standards (or not, as the case may be) and it is in their hands that the club/revival/music will stand or fall.
Wouldn't dream of asking a guest not to use a crib sheet - on the other hand he/she wouldn't get a booking in any club I had anything to do with if they did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: rodentred
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

I do wonder if someone gives a folk club a try how they might be expected to assimilate all these opinions on manners before putting a foot wrong. I think each club essentially defines its own code of conduct by majority opinion and what is right for one (eg a back room singaround) won't be right for another (eg concert based). But here's a couple of things that I think are important that I tell newbies:

1 If you are listening show common courtesy, don't talk during performance, fiddle with noisy things, switch phone off and only enter the room if you can do so invisibly.
2 If performing - learn the song or how to play the instrument in your own time (use words as a prop only), sing and play loud enough for people to hear and ensure you speak clearly enough that anyone trying can actually hear what the song is about.

Bugbears: 'drummers' who join in with rhythm when not invited; people who say I just learned this today (my heart sinks and is rarely disappointed); guests who don't stay in the room to hear the performances of others

I believe Folk Clubs are fantastic to give a stage to people who are just starting out and generally newbies are given a warm welcome. We all have to start somewhere. What they don't seem to be good at is telling people they're never going to be any good and in continually providing a stage to people who should be kept off it. However, speaking personally it was one of those 'well I can do better than him' moments that got me performing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:23 PM

So what motivates people to stand up a sing in a folk club? Is it because they want to sing? It will sound better in the bath. Do they want to feel more "involved" with the club? There are less stressful ways. Or do they want to put on a performance which they hope will be appreciated by their audience?

Of course everyone has to start somewhere. But there's more to it than just being able to hold a note and remember the words - you have to learn the techniques of performing. These include tricks for remembering elusive lyrics, or facing that familiar situation where the next verse is approaching fast and you've no idea how it starts ... moving smoothly into an instrumental break if the words don't come asif it was always intended, or making up the words convincingly on the spot. If you always have the words in front of you, you'll rely on that crutch and you won't develop skills to help you cope in these situations.

Nerves - everyone has them, the trick is to learn to use the energy positively. Again, practice brings confidence, but if you're always relying on props you won't gain that confidence.

Mistakes - everyone makes them. The best performers learn ways to disguise them so that most of the audience don't even notice, or they may have the confidence simply to laugh them off.

Not everyone can be a great performer. However many can attain a satisfactory level of competence, but to do so they need to learn the techniques of performing, which they won't do if they continually rely on props.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM

I agree completely with Rodentred's particular bugbear: "guests who don't stay in the room to hear the performances of others". I've occasionally seen this happen, and sometimes their entourage goes out with them !

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:52 AM

Howard Jones just said everything that needs to be said.
Why do people want to sing in a folk club? - because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are.
You have to like the songs enough to want others to like them with you, to value them enough to have done the work so you won't make a hames of them, to respect your fellow-performers enough not to put them in a position of having to pick up the pieces after you've made a balls of them, and above all, to look forward to that buzz when your songs work, for you and your listeners- that is what singing (and the enjoyment of singing) should be about - nothing less.
A high level of technical skill - even virtuosity, might or might not come later, depending on how much time you are prepared to devote to it, but I believe that the above will put enough petrol in your tank to make a good start to the journey, and hopefully you'll never have to look back and say "Jeeze, I wish I hadn't done that!!!"
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

When we first got back into the folk scene, a few years back we went to a club which was run by a couple who did about half of the evening, but had a "bit in the middle" where others could do one song. This may not sound like the ideal format for many singers , but it had the advantage that you really learned the song that you were doing well.

Unfortunately the club folded some time ago, and we got into bad habits of not learning the songs properly and using words. This can be OK for an initial exploration of if a song is likely to work or not, or finding if you're doing it in the right key (you can't always do this just by practising at home), but it doesn't really get you performing the songs as opposed to just singing them.

I write songs as well and have a huge backlog of ones that I haven't memorised the words of.

Hence a resolution for a moratorium on writing until I've learned the words of the ones written already. I do this by using that time when you're laying in bed waiting to fall asleep, and in the morning when you've just woken up to go through words in my head. You can use advancing age either as an excuse, or as exercise to try to keep the brain active. Having said this, I do find that it takes a few performences to get a song right -it has to "mature in the cask " a bit.

I don't object if other people use words though. It's up to them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:11 AM

Driving the car. Don't play the radio or CD, sing aloud - 20 times through. It not only teaches you the words, but it sorts out the breathing, the muddly bits of melody and/or words that need a bit of editing - and if it's one of your own songs it teaches you where the weak points in the tune are - where you're relying too much on a chord change, or whatever, so you can add ornamentation or variation to imply the chord change. If you usually sing to an instrument it'll improve your melodies massively. Oh, and drink lots of water. The air blower and heater will dry out your throat much more than normal singing will (actually that goes for just talking too - if you're driving somewhere to sing, don't talk a lot, and do sip water). Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mattkeen
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:26 AM

Quote
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll



So good they named him twice

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:17 AM

Tom Bliss,
          I would rather you concentrate 100% on driving and learn to sing the songs in a much more appropriate place such as at home or diddling about in the garden.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

I used to know some members of a society with secrets who practised their lines while driving - using a cassette player as a prompt. It did not work for me because too much of my mind was on my driving (I am a rather obsessive driver) and so I failed to learn the words well that way.

The best place I have found to practise songs for words (not useful for guitar or mandolin parts, but then neither is driving the car!) is walking dog in empty field - but again it is easy to blow your throat out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:25 AM

Yeah, those paid guests that sit in the other bar 'til it's their turn get up my nose too.

On some occasions certain the floor spots have been better than the said "guests"

Another thing is the "resident" who struts around with the airs an graces of a superstar and has little time to talk to the young struggling musician/newcomer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

Yes, I should have said only on nice long empty-motorway journeys - like the one to Kings Lynn I'll be doing shortly :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gedi
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:39 AM

When I got back into the folk scene a few years back after a long absence, I went to a folk club I heard about to do a song or two. What threw me was when everyone joined in the song, but singing it their way, not the way I sang it. I quickly got lost in the song and my frayed nerves got even worse. I went a couple of times but then stopped.

It's ok to join in verses, or even the song, providing that you can be sure your singing the same tune/words as the singer. Otherwise, better to wait til you know how the song is going to be sung before joining in.

Happily I have now found a club where there is a good atmosphere and a sensitive audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM

"We've got books full of songs. It's just not practical to learn every one of them, ..."

Why not? It is said, 'Girl Friday', that Henry Burstow knew 400 songs and could sing them, one after the other, over several days (without notes).

I probably know about 50 (I'm no Henry Burstow!), including a few 20 verse ballads. I know them all by heart and never use a crib sheet. I don't find learning songs particularly easy - but who said singing should be easy? If you care enough about the songs and your audience you'll put the effort in.