Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

Jimslass - please could you perhaps try to avoid being so very impolite and unwelcoming to a new arrival making her first post? Language changes over time, whether one likes it or not, and there are many regional variations which may be incorrect to some eyes, but perfectly acceptable to others. If you are offended by other people's use of grammar perhaps I may humbly suggest that you might be advised not to visit web fora such as this one at all - purely for your own comfort and safety of course? Thank you so very kindly none-the-less for your contribution. Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

Hi Sleepy.....

Good luck and have lots of fun singing in clubs. The advice I would offer is at first focus on a handful of songs, and get used to singing them well before expanding your repertoire. I used to give the same advice to new members of a group I used to belong to - and the music hall company I rejoined this year.

In my opinion you will get much more pleasure from singing a few songs really well than a lot of songs 'half-known', and to know a song is not just learning the words and tune but also interpreting the stories and nuances and really making the songs your own. That comes from practice and repetition, then build up your repertoire. But most of all, enjoy what you are doing and let your enjoyment come across to the audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

Sleepy Rosie - don't worry, that was just a friendly welcome from JimLass, proves you are welcome as part of the pack and safe to snarl at.


(but, grammatically, he she or it is right! Snork!)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Bryan,
"All we can possibly know beforehand is that they want to sing or play."
There was never any question (certainly not as far as I'm concerned) that any singer who wished to was given one bite of the cherry; as you say, how else would we know whether they could sing or not. The argument is about whether people who wished to sing were consistently given spots before they had conquered the rudiments. SHOULD PEOPLE BE ENCOURAGED TO PRACTICE IN PUBLIC?

"persistent bad singing isn't a problem...... "
As I said before "ding-ding; I'm on the bus" Not to you maybe, but others suggest that it is to them. But the question has to be; is the best place for singers to overcome the rudiments of singing, in front of an audience? Apart from the effect that a non-singer has on the other residents, what image of the club – and folk song in general – does a visitor take away from a club which persistently presents singers who can't sing? Is it unreasonable to expect a 'singer' to be able (at the very least) to hold a tune and not to have to rely on a text to get through the song before they sing it in public?

"..... because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are".
I have persistently argued that virtually anybody can sing, but I have always qualified this by saying "if they put the work in first".

"Yes, we have singers who are, perhaps, somewhat short of concert standard"
Again you are dodging behind phrases like 'glass ceilings' 'virtuosos' and 'exclusion'. The argument has never been about singers reaching "concert standards" before they perform in public; it has always been about mastering the rudiments.

"hit-and-run".
Sorry – a knee-jerk on my part, made when this thread was generating more heat than light – I apologise.

"By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards".
Not if you are consistently putting on (or urging others to put on) singers who can't master the basics you're not.

" Not by selecting the few who are good enough but by helping everybody to get better and, in my experience, they do."
Again, loaded phraseology – nobody has suggested that only 'the few' are good enough to sing; we are saying that in order to present our music in a good light, basic standards should first be achieved.

""not in my (admittedly now somewhat limited) experience I'm afraid" That is, I think, the nub of the problem......"
I left the club scene principally because I believed that the 'near enough for folk-song' crowd had finally taken over the asylum. Arguments like this only serve to convince me that I was right.
I have no doubt whatever that there are clubs where the standards are high enough not to give the impression that folk singing is artless and inept; nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones, but that doesn't change the fact that clubs I have visited confirm my experience and that of others I know far more familiar with the UK club scene.
I have heard it argued on this forum that not only are standards unnecessary, but they are undesirable, the inference being that the music is really not worth the effort – not for me I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

Surely, the fact of Bryan's agreeing with 'persistent bad singing isn't a problem' simply means that it's a problem that he hasn't come across, rather than it not being a problem to anyone if and when it does happen, as I'm sure it is/would be.

I am relieved that others feel that it is up to the singer to say that other people are welcome to join in with a whole song, rather than saying they don't want people to join in. I have a strong aversion to 'everyone in on everything' sessions, so I don't go to them. A singaround is just that, with each person having the opportunity to sing in turn.

And Sleepy Rosie, there's lots of good advice here - and if you respect the songs, chances are you'll do fine. Lots of luck, and enjoy yourself (is that as bad as 'myself'? :-) ).

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:53 PM

Oh dear.

There are two threads of argument running here now, and I have tried to bite my tongue but I have to come back on both.

First there is the "You're not good enough" view. Second there is the "Don't join in unless I tell you" view which for me implies something of the first.

Now let me say that I don't believe that things are "good enough for folk". We should all (and I do) try to do as well as possible. That, surely, is in the nature of singing or playing in public. I think it is obvious that the arrival of the expression was a nice piece of British self-deprecation, a deflection, what lawyers in the 1970s would have called a "confession and avoidance".   People who think that people who say it are expressing the view that incompetence is good enough in folk music or song misread what is said - in my view. However, I do take exception to "artless" as a term of criticism. It is the essence of farouche arts and performance that they are without the artifice of high art.

I also believe that people who do not bother to try let both themselves and the genre down. This applies (amongst others) to a nearly semi-pro I know (no names no packdrill) who seems to ascribe to the school of thought that the top 4 strings of a 12 string are Bb, Bnatural, Eb and E natural, and another true semipro who has a guitar worth about 2 grand but uses strings that cost about 2 dollars a set and changes them about every 2 months - oh and a nearly semipro fiddler who "plays" when unable to stand. And people who can read dots but couldn't swing with a rope around their neck. None of that justifies telling them that they are not good enough to play or sing (although it might lead to me running away to avoid the latter). It doesn't justify shutting out singers who can't sing, or who can't memorise words, either. It is not a competition. It is not a hierarchy.

Is it bad manners to impose when you may cause discomfort by your performance - well, yes, but so is farting in public. It's not a hanging offence. Is it bad manners to tell another that they are not good enough? In my view, yes, and clearly so and worse. That (IMHO) is what stops people starting to play or sing. The former only dissuades the audience.


Now I come to the "don't join in" view. I have agonised about posting what I am about to post. I have sent it to "sensitive" friends to review for me in advance (they approve). I am desperate not (likely falsely) to say or imply that I am better than anyone else. That is something that I find offensive in others. I do what I do as well as I can - although my views as to what is better or worse may not be the same as others.

It seems to me that resticting joining in - unless there is a very gocent reason - runs the risk of excluding the most magical of moments: the tingle (or as it has been called elsewhere, "the Miskin tingle").

Now I'm not one to blow my own trumpet, in fact I'm full of insecurities and self doubt, but it seems I finally have to.

One Sweeps I hoiked my mandolin out in a singaround and a bloke said to me afterwards "How did you do that, they were original songs and you've never heard them and you knew exactly what I was about to do before I did it?"

A while before that while Jacqui was alive, we were at a sort of acoustic club, and there was a plank player there. He listened to us do our couple of songs in the first half, and then in the second he said "Can I come up with you?" We said "Well we're going to do X and Y, do you know them?" He said "I know the format". He was right (if a bit loud).

Then there was a Tenterden, and I was flying that year. One bloke (a professional) did a song in the 8 Bells in C sharp and I did quietly and tentatively look for the accompaniemnt, and damn me next time he did it he said "I did this in the 8 Bells and Richard found all the right notes" (I comment, the capo helped a lot). That time of course I screwed it up!

Same year, a different professional (an international pro) said to me as we went off on the Sunday "You're playing has been one of the highlights of the festival for me. You've never met any of these people but it sounds like you've rehearsed the songs together".

Now this is not because I am good or have any special talent. It's because if a musician listens really hard he can tell a fraction ahead of time (usually) where someone is going next in a song. Anyone can do it so long as they do not tense up (so I could not do it if put "on the spot" and stressed).

Some years before Royston and I were giving "Haul Away for Rosie" a shellacking in the Dog and Bunny in Maidstone when the Barden had a session there, and some bloke was cooking up a storm on the guitar behind us (we were in "B"). Sounded super-great, a sort of blues riff against the repeating lines in the shanty.

This serendipity is one of the greatest things about our music. Don't shut it out with egos and formalism. Please.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:08 PM

Thanks for that, Richard B. I grew up with the understanding that when people join together (whether they know the song or not) like that, THAT is where the Music is. The combination is what makes the conversation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

You have no idea how relieved I am Melissa to see even one person say that!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

It is the essence of farouche arts and performance that they are without the artifice of high art.

I have no clue whatsover what 'the essence of farouche arts' and 'the artifice of high art' means. If, by bringing out these expresions, you intend to exclude people from your arguements, Richard, then you have suceeed. Well done, you have shown me up to be the uneducacted Gnome I obviously am!

I will say however that if you are saying that anyone should be able to join in with anything then why on earth are you using phrases that one needs need an Oxford degree to understand?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM

Oh, sorry, and you still have not responded to my point about someone who is not confident enough to tell people not to join in.

D.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say, Richard , but I'd also guess that you'd also have a pretty good idea of when NOT to play as well. And you mention LISTENING in your post which never seems to get as many mentions as it perhaps should do.

I love playing with people and though I like folk music it's only one of a number of forms of music I enjoy. The interaction of people playing together and sparking ideas off each other - or harmonising - or improvising - have always been at the root of the music that I really adore. As an example, I went and watched John Etheridge and Christian Garrick play last night and the sheer joy and electricity between the players (against wonderful rhythm playing) was just breathtaking and brings a tear of pure pleasure to my eye at the best bits. It's not folk but I make very little distinction between good music of whatever form (don't get me started on Mahler's 10th or the joys of William Byrd)

But there's little worse than people doing it really badly. If you want to guarantee a really grim experience 8 times out of 10 just say the words 'how about we play a 12-bar blues together'... and cringe as people run up and down endlessly boring pentatonic scales.

I often feel that I probably shouldn't really be contributing to a folk forum as so much of what I like seems so at odds with what people try and uphold. I still enjoy a lot of traditional music, play an increasing amount of Irish and Scottish session music but would hate there to be no opportunity to join with people as those together musical moments are some of the highlights for me.

And if I play inappropriately in a singaround or session just say - hopefully I will have noticed myself but if I haven't I take little offence.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:55 PM

wow..by implication, I have been clumped with Oxford grads?!

This is truly my lucky day!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:14 PM

Richard - If the gathering is described as a sing-a-long then your "joining in" argument has some merit Otherwise......

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:15 AM

Farouche appears in my dictionaries as 'sullen' - 'wild', and is from the Latin for out-of-doors. I have no idea how this is intended to apply to the topic on hand; I assume it equates to Bob Davenport's 'Art with a big A and art with a small a' somewhere along the line (aka academic double-speak).
"You're not good enough" view. Second there is the "Don't join in unless I tell you" view which for me implies something of the first".
Not only have you put the onus on the performer to ask the audience not to join in, but you have implied that should he/she do so they are suggesting that the audience is somehow inferior - utter balls!!!.
The suggestion as far as I'm concerned is reactionary twaddle which reduces our most beautiful, sensitive, and often very complex songs and ballads to the level of 'Knees Up Mother Brown'.
Our song tradition is, by its very nature a solo one (with obvious exceptions) - here we have it turned into community sing-song.
The Irish, who are, by-and-large are a fairly tolerant race, have a phrase which they use on the very occasional event of an ego-tripper insisting on joining in on everybody's song (is this just a UK thing?) - "One singer, one song" - says it all.
Should Richard wish an audience to join in on everything he does, he is perfectly entitled to ask them to do so, but please don't assume that this is what the rest of us want, be we performer or listener.
I'm afraid that Melissa's chilling suggestion that people be permitted to join in "whether they know the song or not" sums up Richard's nightmare world perfectly for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:17 AM

farouche - by analogy think of "wild flower"

artless: meanings 2b and 3

I think that singers and players should be wary of telling others to not to join in. It fills me at least with the desire to say "EEwww, get you!" unless there is a good reason.

I think, John, that the default position lies somewhere else. If the event is a paid for seated concert then I can see (even if I am hesitant about accepting) the "Don't join in" argument. It gets steadily more self important as one moves from that environment, unless there is a good and apparent reason.

But of course, manners should dictate "listen" as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:19 AM

Jim C:
"I'm afraid that Melissa's chilling suggestion that people be permitted to join in "whether they know the song or not" sums up Richard's nightmare world perfectly for me."

Chilling?
Downright diabolical, probably...but I have no damn idea what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM

PS
Maybe we should have a screen with the words of all the songs projected on to it and the little ball dancing from word-to-word just like the childrens' Saurday matinee - ee; it takes you back lads and lasses.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:09 AM

Did I tell you about the time I was doing a sensitive accompaniment -playing pentatonic scales in the phyrgian mode on a bird warbler and someone threw their beer at me.....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM

Our song tradition is, by its very nature a solo one (with obvious exceptions) - here we have it turned into community sing-song.

Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

Jim Carroll

There was never any question (certainly not as far as I'm concerned) that any singer who wished to was given one bite of the cherry; as you say, how else would we know whether they could sing or not. The argument is about whether people who wished to sing were consistently given spots before they had conquered the rudiments.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. In an early posting you say -

Is it being a Blue Meany to suggest that performers should be able to hold a tune and remember and make sense of the words BEFORE they take to the floor. (Your emphasis.)

Searching on "before they" brings up half a dozen similar examples so perhaps you will excuse my confusion.

Are you now saying just "one bite of the cherry" or would you give people more time? It only moves the question along one step. To find out if they've improved, we have to put them on again. In our experience, people do improve. Some more slowly than others but nobody carries on apparently blissfully unaware of how bad they are.

"By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards".
Not if you are consistently putting on (or urging others to put on) singers who can't master the basics you're not.

We are not "consistently putting on singers who can't master the basics". We are not "a club which persistently presents singers
who can't sing". We simply don't have the resources. We do not have an adequate supply of singers who can't sing to do so. In our experience, the vast majority of people who want to sing (or play) can.

nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones

Kind of you but you still seem to be blaming our policy for the poor standards you see elsewhere. Dare I suggest that, if we are among the better ones, it is precisely because of our "Yes you can" policy?

As I said before "ding-ding; I'm on the bus"

That's rather the point, Jim. On your own admission you got off the bus ten years ago but still seem to feel that you are qualified to pontificate about the current state of public transport.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:39 AM

But Richard, have you never experienced that spine chilling moment when listening to someone singing a ballad so beautifully/powerfully/poignantly that you hardly dare breathe yourself for spoiling the magic, and bringing everyone back from that 'other world' to our mundane one?

I love the glory of a rousing chorus, or the power of a roomful of musicians all playing in telepathic sympathy, but some songs (or tunes) just can't, or shouldn't be treated this way. I suspect almost everyone here can tell when joining in (with gusto or with careful harmony etc) is appropriate, and when they themselves would prefer to listen. I also suspect that as Mudcat is a very mixed community that some of us will gravitate towards joining in sessions, and some toward ballad workshops, or any of the myriad of venues in between and consequently feel that their take on this issue is best answered by the practice of their own favoured setting.

My only intention in contributing to the discussion was to observe that there are times (at least at the clubs I go to) where all but one or two individuals have the sensiitvity and the desire to enjoy a solo song for just that, and that maybe it could be considered bad manners if a tiny minority of the assembly were oblivious to those occasions and continued to hum/sing/play along. I have been to evenings where the contrasts between a tremendous chorus followed by the beauty of a ballad has left me in tears. But if one person chooses not to join in a chorus that won't spoil the chorus song half as much as one person insisting in joining in with the ballad.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

I was reading through the tread again and Jim said something I had not noticed. Words to the effect of 'I am bad listener'. Excuse me if I got the quote wrong or incorrectly accredited the wrong person. Anyway...

So am I! I cope with it by trying to avoid the situation where I am listening to poor performance of songs. MOST have at least some redeeming featues - either the song is interesting in itself or the performer can, at least, give me something to stay for. May be very selfish, I know, but where the performer offers me nothing to stay for I would rather do something else. It may be bad mannered of me but I have, on occasions, been found unavoiably delayed at the bar;-)

Now, the point of my confession. There was one such occasion when I was unavoidaby delayed and I found myself in the company of 75% of the folk club audience. So I know it was not just me. this particular act had all but emptied the room. Now, fortunately, it was on a singers night where the auience do knpw the score and do know that people are allowed to 'practice in public'. I dread to think what the effect on a non aware audience would have been but I can imagine the image of folk music that they would have taken away.

Remember that people rarely give praise but often complain:-(

I have said before, and will say again, anyone who has not come across the 'serial song strangler' is a very lucky person indeed. I am not saying they should not have the right to sing like anyone else. But they must accept that other people have a right not to listen, should they chooe, and I have a right, as a club organiser, to restrct when they perform at my club.

Cheers

DeG
(Having a break from fixing shelves - something else I should avoid:-) )

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:14 AM

BTW - I would class our singers nights as a bit of a 'workshop' as well, as I think I have mentioned. Everyone seems to get inolved and there is a lot of chat and avice going on. Everyone shoul get the chance to peform and everyone should be allowed to make mistakes. But to repeatedly do it and not take advice on board is bad manners. Bringing us back to the thread:-)

D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

"Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?"
Yes - as a matter of fact - I did say notable exceptions.
Davis,
I think you'll find I said NOT a bad listener.
"Last GUEST was me."
I think we all guest that Bryan
More later
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:34 AM

Just didn't want to get deleted as an anonymous GUEST by an enthusiastic mud elf.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

On joining in - to some extent it depends whether the joining in enhances or destroys the original performance. I was once asked to sing quite a sensitive song by the organiser of a singaround and ANOther person joined in with her (different but otherwise acceptable) tune and put me off completely.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

Yep, my working class seventies schooling was utterly dire jimslass, especially in maths and grammar. In fact all I recall were a bunch of bored spiteful premenstrual mums (aka: teachers) and I've never gone back to the nuts and bolts in order to rectify it.

Be thankfull that you were (presumably) in a generation or area, in which you could gain a decent education, before 'progressive' thinkers took a hatchet to our schooling and started worrying more about 'targets' than children receiving a good basic education! I wish I'd have recieved the education of my grandfather, or even my mother for that matter.

I'm saying all of this while wearing a smile by the way, no offence taken, though if someone said that to my face, I suspect I might just blow a raspberry at 'em...

Now as you appear to be the man in the know of such things, please advise, how exactly should I spell 'tthhhhrrruppp' ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

Well WLD I suppose even being drenched by a glass of beer is a feed back of some description.At least when you leave you know how good you've been.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

Well theres no use getting bitter.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

Apologies Jim - I was just skimming and it wasn't so much what was said as what gave me the idea:-) Fact still remains that I am not a good listener when it comes to poor performances. I am quite tollereant for the first few times but then, if I find I cannot help in anyway, I give up. Maybe too easily!

WLD - I think you need to get bitter, else you may find yourself described as to mild. Or maybe if you absorbe to much you would get stout. Or la(r)ger...

:D(eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

"Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?"
Yes - as a matter of fact - I did say notable exceptions.

Obviously(?) that wasn't entirely a serious question, so thanks for giving it a serious answer!

I think the sound of the Copper family singing Thousands or More is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. I like singing ballads, but I also like being in the middle of a performance of Thousands or More, Fathom the Bowl, Glorious Ale, Pleasant and Delightful, Jones's Ale and several other songs with big choruses. I do agree with aw - "if one person chooses not to join in a chorus that won't spoil the chorus song half as much as one person insisting in joining in with the ballad". But you seem to be ruling the chorus songs themselves out of the traditional canon, which seems a bit excessive to me.

Anonymous Guest Brian -

We are not "a club which persistently presents singers who can't sing". We simply don't have the resources. We do not have an adequate supply of singers who can't sing to do so.

Extreme pedantry and sound common sense, united in one comment. Sir, I salute you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM

And if you keep it up I might even get your name right. Sorry, Bryan.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

Guest aw - Exactly!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:00 PM

Pip Radish

Extreme pedantry and sound common sense

Aw, come on! I'm not a patch on Richard Bridge.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

Dear Sleepy Rosie, forgive the Arrgghhhh! on your first posting, it was actually, Tom, said with a bit of tongue in cheek, but certainly not meant to upset you Rosie. I DID say, mind you that it wasn't a go at bad spellers (I can't count) nor poor grammarians, this 'myself' business is just a sloppy usage that has crept in VERY recently, and I'm very very sorry to presume, on Mudcat, to air a pet peeve - realise it goes against the grain here (ahem!)

Will promise to be all sweetness and light in future....That's if you'll have me back.

Have I grovelled enough?

But seriously, sorry, Rosie.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM

Don't be daft, no grovelling, I'm not offended jimslass!!

It's always a little hard to tell someones 'tone of voice' on t'internet, I wasn't griping at you. My grammar and spelling has always been crumby though, and I do attribute that to the fact that my early schooling was a sad shambles! Though I 'spose if I really cared, I could get some books off the shelf...!

I agree with you believe it or not. And in fact one of my own pet hates is the pronunciation of words (especially on the Beeb) becoming increasingly Americanised, for no other reason than we're all watching Desperate Housewives now. Since when did ten years mean something rotten? Dee-kayd?

I'll duck out of this aside now, and allow the thread to return to topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:47 PM

Since when did ten years mean something rotten? Dee-kayd?

Love you forever, Sleepy Rosie. That one has been annoying me for dec-ades.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

It does not say much for the beer if it is being thrown around!! Generally the people I have come across say whether they expect an audience to join in, although, sometimes the singing is that good that to join in, even when invited, would be a travesty.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

I'm afraid I've found much of this thread a combination of misunderstanding, misrepresentation and distortion, in order - apparently, to justify presenting bad singing to the public.
An appeal for basic standards has been met with responses like 'elitism', 'prima donna', 'exclusion', 'auditioning' 'glass ceilings', demanding 'concert standards' and only selecting the 'few who are good enough to sing' - none of which have been suggested by those of us who prefer our songs well enough rehearsed to be enjoyed.
A number of the attitudes on display here have shown, in my opinion, at best a basic misunderstanding of our music and at worst, an open contempt for it.
Richard's 'wild flowers' are, if I have waded through his treacle-field of academic verbiage correctly, a giant step for mankind - backward to the 19th century when our folk singers were regarded as unthinking peasants whose art was as unconsidered as bird-song - and if that were not enough, he would turn our clubs into venues for mixed-voice choirs.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to drop out of this, for a while at least. We're off to Dublin for a couple of days, where I hope we will be be entertained by two plays whose participants will have undergone sufficient periods of rehearsal for us sit back and appreciate the works of two great playwrights. Hopefully the actors will not have to read their lines from a script or stumble through their interpretations, or fail to articulate or project and will send us home entertained and emotionally and aesthetically satisfied.
Would that folk song be granted the same respect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:52 AM

Grand summary Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:53 AM

Jim, I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:38 AM

NOBODY is trying to "justify presenting bad singing to the public".
NOBODY is showing "an open contempt for [our music]".

Jim seems unable to grasp the concept that people who want to sing generally want to sing well and that, as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:10 AM

people who want to sing generally want to sing well

Bryan, that is your experience, not mine or Jims. Would that not be better changed to

"MOST people who want to sing generally want to sing well, but not all are capable of doing so"

As to

as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work.

Are all adults responsible? Can they all be trusted? I would like to think so but in my experience it is not always the case:-(

Rather than suggest that we are incapable of grasping the concept would it not be better just to acknowledge that our experience is not the same as yours?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:22 AM

I must ask, as a newbie myself, for those who have experience of these terrible performances, who are the guilty parties?

Are they generally newbs who in a flush of misapplied enthusiasm, are simply inexperienced and unfamiliar with reasonable standards? And perhaps X Factor stylee, have had doting tone deaf family and friends applaud their cattawalling...? I'm sure that those willing to confess to watching the show, will all have witnessed classic jaw-drop moments of that ilk.

Or are these people experienced regulars who've become complacent and lazy?

As a listener, I'd be happy to hear drunken strumming and clumsily garbled singing at a party or around a campfire. But if I were going out for the evening, I think I'd be a bit fed-up if the general ability of *enthusiasts* were no more competent than a couple of my three chord wonder mates, after a bottle or two of Merrydown!

As a wannabee singer/enthusiast, I'd in no way want to inflict a rubbish noise on someone elses eardrums. Though my neighbours, may disagree of course... ;-) It'd be way too embarassing to stand up in front of a bunch of experienced strangers and make a rotten noise. I find it amazing that there are peeps happy and willing to humiliate themselves that way!

If someone's not on form for whatever reason, they should presumably be able to hear it themselves and at least say "sorry folks, I'm a bit rubbish tonight... nerves, tiredness, a cold" etc.

So who are the guilty parties and why do they do it?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:32 AM

Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards. What a sad world that would be!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:45 AM

Hiya Sleepy Rosie. I am not going to name the 'guilty parties' but in answer to you other questions, they are a mix of all you mention.

The 'newbies' are fine by me. Everyone has to start somewhere. Provided they have made an effort to learn the song, and that is not just memorising words and a tune btw. They will almost always improve.

Experienced regulars who have become complacent and lazy. Hmmm, tough one. There are one or two I have come across but rarer than the next ones. generaly it is a phase and, again, they will get back 'on track'.

The ones that I take exception to most are the ones who, week in and week out, return a less than satisfactory performance. The ones who should know better but insist on telling a long rambling tale of no interest to anyone but their mothers. Those who cannot, or will not, keep the same time signature, or key, through the song. Those who obviously have no idea what the song is about.

Your example of a drunken three chord wonder at a party or campfire is an excellent one indeed. Both you and I are quite happy to listen, even join in, in those circumstances, but at a night where people are paying to see a professional artist I would not let them within 50 feet of the stage - and I suspect that most of them would not want to. But some have the X-factor syndrome that you mention. I suspect that some of these people think they are good because no one has ever told them othewise.

Hope this helps:-)

theleveller - I am sure Jim will answer himself. As he has already said that he will not be around for a few days and cannot defend himself I think it is very poor form to suggest he has said such things when he has already said otherwise.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:40 AM

"theleveller - I am sure Jim will answer himself. As he has already said that he will not be around for a few days and cannot defend himself I think it is very poor form to suggest he has said such things when he has already said otherwise."

Has he - can't see where? Sorry, I didn't realise that I was supposed to wait for his presence before being allowed to express my opinion. Is this thread now closed for the next few days, then?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

1. Yes

2. 12 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

3. You don't

4. No

As I said, I just think it is poor form (or bad manners to keep on topic) to put words in someones mouth when they are not there to dispute it. But it is your prerogative to do so just as it is mine to state an opinion.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: romany man
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

i have refrained from putting a comment on for so long now, and those that know me know i dont suffer in silence for long, sadly it has come to the point that perhaps an outside view is due, from what ive read, this thread is getting to become the usual "oh im a folkie of long standing and i am right" well sorry, folk music is for all people not just a certain clique of people, ive read about manners , the mentally ill going to you hallowed clubs, and the views there of, please people, get real, you aint special, folk music aint the be all and end all, how long before you cant come to our club unless you got a beard or arrun sweater, or can sit motionless and silently for hours whilst some demegod performs,
why is it that folkie think they are so special, sorry none of us are, in the great scheme of things, there are more important things going on than worrying about who says what, plays what, or how they play or sing, you are supposed to be enjoying your hobby not forcing a general missguided rule on others, if things were as special as you all think it is, then hey everyone would be enjoying folk music, but tastes differ, me personally i cant stand some of the dirge ridden singaround perfomances, however some people do like it , fine thats great, but ive been to concerts and major venues where people walk about , sing along, clap hands , dance, smile , oh and of course drink, but hey folk clubs seem to be the total opposite, with "come in sit down dont move dont smile dont do nothing", sorry thats not for me and many many others i know, now thats my personal view, if it is not to your taste , sorry, but as has been said before everyone has a view.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

Don't know if the leveller is being deliberately obtuse here or if he really is just not reading the posts properly, either way, he is in great danger of making himself look a bit of a tit.