Lyr Add: England My England

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

"England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences.

None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's.

So proud (?) of some things and not others?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

Once we all lived in Africa then we spread out and have been doing so for around 200,000 years. Hardly a place on the planet does not have people from other places. The idea of people in one place going back to the bronze isn't much true.

Is Italy a country and a nation? Lots of people in the north are keen to cut themselves off from the people in the south. Could it be because they have a lot more wealth?

I will ask the question again:

"England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences.

None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's.

So proud (?) of some things and not others?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

Geez, why are you so stuck in only the bad part of our history, Les?

What of the good things about England? Or do you deliberately choose not to go there?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:58 AM

Well Lizzie,

as I have failed to explain I don't really know what being proud of England is. I guess that's my problem.

Looking back on what English people have done, ie culture in it's widest sense, some of looks good, some bad and some just history.

If you are proud of some stuff and ashamed (?) of other stuff what does that add up to? No? I don't know either.

I have sung old songs, danced Morris, been in mummers plays, ran clubs and groups and all that other stuff and enjoyed it. So people did it a long time ago - just like all the bad stuff.

Are you cherry picking the bits you like and simply avoiding all the bits you don't? Ok fine but that is why we keep going on.

And more importantly Suibhne O'Piobaireachd

Brilliant as ever

Les

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:03 PM

Where evil has been done, decent Britons have changed it, e.g. slavery, colonial exploitation. Also, our colonial influence was not all bad.
As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here, and without needing invaders to come and sort things out for us.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM

"When you were rhapsodising over village greens, cricket and spitfires, I told you that this chocolate box vision was somewhat undermined by the realities of the past: rural poverty, enclosure, childhood disease and death, and the many iniquities of the class system.... "<<<<<<

No, you told me that my words about England, which were in fact my actual memories too, did not exist, expect on biscuit tins. I have since assured you, many times over, that they actually EXISTED and still do, in many parts of this country. Just a few weeks ago in Torquay they were all out playing cricket on the green there, with the church spire in the background and the sea to the front.

It exists. It has always existed. It is PART of English culture, both past and present....and future.


What you **actually** said was this.....and I have taken this from a PM you sent me a while back:

"...What I actually said, after a long, misty-eyed bout of whimsy from you about spitfires and cricket and church bells and village greens, was (and this was a thought that has since been echoed by many of your countrymen) the England you were trying to conjure up was a sentimental image that ony existed on biscuit tins and Hovis adverts, and it did not take into account the real, multicultural society that we live in...."


"...You responded (and this is the important bit) that I would have to have "England running through every part of me" to be able truly understand your vision. The implication being that, as I was not born here, I could never properly understand or appreciate England in the way that you could...."

You took that to imply what you wanted it to. And I told you that if I had gone to live in America, then I would still never know that country as well as you, still never have the memories you have because you have half a lifetime's more memories of America than I do and always will.

I would never dream of telling anyone that their actual memories did not exist, apart from on biscuit tins. (!!)

I have SAT on village greens, heard the sound of leather against willow..whilst the bells rang out the hours...and it is a vision I love.

I have never seen the Notting Hill Carnival, apart from on the news, because I have never lived in Notting Hill. It looks great fun in some parts and a bit dodgy in others when things get a little out of hand. I have seen the Glastonbury/Bridgwater Carnival of Lights, though, because I used to live down the road..but that ain't on Albion Heart either.   And things can get out of hand in Glastonbury too sometimes.



"And the fact is that the real, living breathing England of 2009 has, for the majority of people, regardless of culture or origin, a lot more to do with urban culture and diversity than the treacly, whimsical nonsense you were espousing at the time. You would not accept this."

I still don't accept it. England is not 'urban culture'...it is a huge variety of cities, towns, villages, countryside, beaches, coastline, lakes...Urban culture is not and never has been a part of my life, because I have never lived in a city. And that is a hanging offence????????? I identify far more with cows, sheep and tors, than I do with urban culture and clubbing....Yeesh!



"You also went on to launch one of your nasty, hysterical attacks on my culture."

In what way? Was it baseball caps? Gawd...I hate baseball caps, always have done, always will do. Terrible invention! I also dislike Corporate America, but then I loathe Corporate Britain too.

I seem to recall saying that if I had launched the 'America No Thanks' campaign, instead of Ian Anderson, then I'd have been called a racist, but because Ian did it, it was seemingly OK.


"That's whay I called you a racist."

Then you were wrong, weren't you.   


"I think the things you said at that time were at the very least xenophobic, at worst racist. I find the Daily Mail, red-top politics you continue to espouse deplorable. I didn't apologise then and I don't now. "

I would not accept your apology, after reading what you put about me on Facebook, so that truly is of no importance to me.


As I recall you inferred my father was a facist, simply because he used to read the Daily Mail. Whoa!!! The fact that Dad went to war er...AGAINST facists obviously completely went over your head then?????

I'm puzzled about the Daily Mail Leftie Hysteria, it has always puzzled me. It's the top selling paper in the country, it launches blistering attacks on the BNP, it often has very intelligent pieces in it which are anything but racist....so that must mean that most people in this country are er...racist then?

Of course it bloomin' doesn't.

The Daily Mail phobia within the Left is bizarre. I've always found it bizarre and always will. I'm not an Extremist of Left or Right, I support no particular party, because let's face it, they're all crappily corrupted....but I love my country and I have true and beautiful memories of it, some of which come only from yesterday, not purely decades ago.

I find The Sun far more worrying, and The Mirror, with their dumbed down words and nude women plastered everywhere, coarseness and vulgarity on almost every page.

What is it with Newspaperism in the folk world in England. WHY do you judge people on the papers they read? It's so weird!

I don't care about the colour of anyone's skin, nor their religion or background. I don't see people as 'class' but as people, pure and simple...yet I am a racist xenophobe facist.   

Cool, huh?

I do judge people though, but only on their souls....

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:20 PM

"Where evil has been done, decent Britons have changed it, e.g. slavery, colonial exploitation. Also, our colonial influence was not all bad.
As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here, and without needing invaders to come and sort things out for us."

Excellently put, Keith and I couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM

yet I am a racist xenophobe facist.>>>

yet I am a racist xenophobe facist??????

Left the ??? out there...


Also, let's deal with the Spitfires memory of mine, shall we?

When I worked in Harley St. as I've said before, Douglas Bader was a patient of the Cardiologist I worked for. He was an incredible man, one to whom we owe a huge debt. Dr. Spurrell, his Cardiologist, had modelled his life on Bader's courage, after having seen 'Reach for the Sky' at the cinema when he was a young boy.

He grew up to fly Spitfires. Ended up buying one with some pals of his and they spent many happy hours stripping it all down and re-bulding it.

So yes, I'm afraid that Spitfires also are in my memory bank..and of course, my dear Dad was an RAF Navigator too.

In short, don't tell me what I can and can't think about my country or the memories that flow through every part of me.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

The Daily Mail is a bad and evil thing.

"Also, our colonial influence was not all bad. "

True but in getting to some kind of understanding do you see it is about 50/50?

Going to other places, taking over countries and shipping lots of stuff back. And we didn't even leave them Morris dancing - we left them Cricket.

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:30 PM

How the heck can you say that Churchill is NOT part of England?

Where did I say that Churchill was not part of England, Lizzie? Just reading into my words what you want to see, much like the tabloids you quote do with thier news stories.

Look back, read again and try to comprehend what I am actualy saying. If not at least quote me verbatim rather than quoting your own interpretation. I think you will find what I actualy said distincly different to your slant on it.

But before we get hung up on the niceties let's remember the point of the thread. It was asking for information on the song. It has long since been established that it was written and distributed by persons of dubious intent. Apart from which it is a particularly bad example of teh songsmoths talent!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:32 PM

Just as my last post is a particulary bad example of the spilling chuckers art...

:D

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:37 PM

As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here,

Tyranny and Intolerance are what England is founded on and continue to be its abiding attributes today. And still they sing:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
He made them high and lowly;
He ordered their estate!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:38 PM

"Where did I say that Churchill was not part of England, Lizzie? Just reading into my words what you want to see, much like the tabloids you quote do with thier news stories."

er...here?

"The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician.

It is that of Ranjid that runs the corner shop, Fred who buys his sandwich there on the way to work, Natasha who bakes the bread and Ingrid who drives the bus. It does not matter one jot whether they like cricket, morris dancing, steel bands or curry on their roast beef.<<<<<<


Wilberforce and Churchill are as MUCH a part of REAL England as Ranjid, Fred, Natasha and Ingrid.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM

"Tyranny and Intolerance are what England is founded on and continue to be its abiding attributes today. And still they sing:"


Just yesterday 5 of our soldiers were murdered. They were murdered trying to bring peace in Afghanistan. They were murdered by an Afghan policeman out of his brain on drugs. He was supposed to be their friend.

They were doing this job knowing that at any moment something like this could happen. They were doing this job because they are trying to bring some kind of sense to a crazy country that is out of control.
They were doing this in an effort to help the Afghan people live a far,far better life, with a properly trained police force.

England is also founded on immense bravery, because we go in where others fear to tread.

Our soldiers are incredibly brave...

We have brought peace to many places...and I am fair sick to death of having my country run down by prats who chooose to harp on about the Leftie view of England.

Tell you what, if you don't like this country, then b*gger off somewhere else.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:44 PM

I'm still perplexed as to how anyone could imagine that "their" England had been "taken away from them"?
It's all sitting here quite happily, minding it's own business, being whatever it is.. Freely and abundantly available to anyone who wants to indulge in it, as much as they could possibly want. If they can actually be arsed of course, which unfortunately I suspect an awful lot of supposed 'nationalists' *can't*. Because if you want to invest just a little energy there's whole a public library of classic English literature, drama and poetry to immerse oneself in, there's miles upon miles of footpaths through the beautiful English countryside to ramble through, there are traditional English pubs galore to sit beside a roaring log fire with your mates if you want to, there are old English puds to steam if you want to don an apron, there's even a revival in Raves if you're interested in visiting Essex (youthful anarchy being one of the more endearing aspects of traditional English culture to me, but probably not to most).

Whatever, this country is simply brimming over with Englishness for anyone who wants to open their eyes or lift a finger to be a part of it. It's a flowing river teaming with weeds and fishy's, not a dessicated museum piece. So instead of fantasising about it's demise, why not be a part of it's continued ongoing manifestation - just like so many of the appreciators of, and active participants in it *are doing* right now - from wherever they may originate - such as for example (amongst others) Ruth Archer & indeed my friend Virginia Tam..

Subject: RE: England My England
From: richd
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:47 PM

Threads such as this give a wonderful glimpse into some strange worlds - and make me so happy not to be English!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:47 PM

The Slave Triangle that connected Africa, America and England has had a much greater effect on so much. An it's effects continue.

Are you proud of that?

No of course not - not for a second am I suggesting you even might be Lizzie.

You are picking and choosing what to be proud of. OK do it.

But how is that being proud of England?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:48 PM

Kate Bush....

Kate Bush




"Oh! England, my Lionheart,
I'm in your garden, fading fast in your arms.
The soldiers soften, the war is over.
The air raid shelters are blooming clover.
Flapping umbrellas fill the lanes--
My London Bridge in rain again.

Oh! England, my Lionheart!
Peter Pan steals the kids in Kensington Park.
You read me Shakespeare on the rolling Thames--
That old river poet that never, ever ends.
Our thumping hearts hold the ravens in,
And keep the tower from tumbling.

Oh! England, my Lionheart,
Oh! England, my Lionheart,
Oh! England, my Lionheart,
I don't want to go.

Oh! England, my Lionheart!
Dropped from my black Spitfire to my funeral barge.
Give me one kiss in apple-blossom.
Give me one wish, and I'd be wassailing
In the orchard, my English rose,
Or with my shepherd, who'll bring me home.

Oh! England, my Lionheart,
Oh! England, my Lionheart,
Oh! England, my Lionheart,
I don't want to go.
Oh! England, my Lionheart,
Oh! England, my Lionheart,
Oh! England, my Lionheart,
I don't want to go. "

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:52 PM

The Slave Triangle that connected Africa, America and England has had a much greater effect on so much. An it's effects continue.

Are you proud of that?

No of course not - not for a second am I suggesting you even might be Lizzie.

You are picking and choosing what to be proud of. OK do it.

But how is that being proud of England?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:01 PM

lizziecornish ssaid: I have never lived in a city

Yes you have. You were born and brought up in Pinner, the epitome of Betjeman's Metroland, then you worked at a central London hospital, or so you've told us all often enough. More recently you have trekked around a succession of faded Victorian English seaside towns. A million miles away from the harsh realities of rural life for real people.

Ruth really does live in an English village and is thus presumably aware of the struggles for survival of agricultural workers. I come from a tiny hamlet where my grandfather was the first farmer there to get a tractor after the end of WW2. He had three fields, spread out at some distance from each other, and toiled hard on them and could not afford to employ labour. They lived in a stone-built, 17th century cottage, ever so chocolate box-looking from the outside but cold and draughty with a pump the sole source of water. Today that tiny village has no shop, indeed no community facilities at all. The cottages are tarted up to estate agent brochure standards yet the place is entirely still and empty except at weekends. All the younger people are in the towns, living "urban culture and clubbing".

"English country life" was always tough except for the gentry in the big halls. It really wasn't (and isn't) like Mabel Lucy Attwell, Enid Blyton or an episode of The Archers. Mind you, even that had a gang of racist thugs mugging the local Asian solicitor. And the local cricketers play 20/20. Get real and get out of Albion Fartland.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:07 PM

"The Slave Triangle that connected Africa, America and England has had a much greater effect on so much. An it's effects continue.

Are you proud of that?

No of course not - not for a second am I suggesting you even might be Lizzie.

You are picking and choosing what to be proud of. OK do it.

But how is that being proud of England?"


Oh come ON, Les.

Wilberforce gave most of his life to stop the Slave Trade..and it wasn't just the trade here he stopped, but elsewhere too. I'm damned proud of him for a start. There are so many things to be proud of...Yes, of course there are bad things too, there always are, in all countries, but NO other country beats itself up as this one does...and the Slave Trade is a perfect example of that. Over and again it's brought up. Why?   We all know it happened. Some of us also know that it was an Englishman who STOPPED it too, sadly not enough know that though, because hey, that would mean that 'they' would have to put some good stuff down about Englishmen, and gawd...we can't have that now, can we.

I'm proud of these folks....they're absolutely bloody marvellous!

The Imagined Village

But I'm also proud of this man....and if you've not seen this film, ten see it, because it's wonderful!

Amazing Grace


And if you cannot see the connection between The Imagined Village and William Wilberforce, Les....then I despair. The Americans have taken Wilberforce far more to their hearts than we have....and William is now inspiring a whole new generation of young people to fight slavery in this modern world....

But even though I despair that William's own country has seemingly chosen to ignore him, never putting his name beside the cries of 'We have the Slave Trade to beat ourselves up for!' I am deeply proud that he was English...

The Amazing Change

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

"Yes you have. You were born and brought up in Pinner, the epitome of Betjeman's Metroland, then you worked at a central London hospital, or so you've told us all often enough. More recently you have trekked around a succession of faded Victorian English seaside towns. A million miles away from the harsh realities of rural life for real people."


Pinner, for your information, Diane...was known as Pinner Village....and I can remember when it was covered with more fields than houses. It was not 'urban culture'.

I worked in Harley St, then er...I went home to Pinner. I never lived in London, nor partied there.

I have lived in a tiny village in Somerset, with only one shop, in which I worked...and a slightly larger village on Dartmoor....where I watched the few shops closing down, year by year, spoke to the farmers, watched the sheep being driven over the bridge of an evening...so I can assure you that I too know all about village life, and country life, which is why I used to rant on about Show of Hands 'Country Life' so much....a song which you used to moan about and put down, as I recall, and yet, here you are now moaning about shops closing down....well well well...

The faded Victorian seaside towns have poverty running through them in many cases. Again, look up your Show of Hands CDs and you'll find songs about them. No jobs, no good transport links...stuck in the middle of the countryside, albeit on the coast side...life is hard.   

Was Sidmouth filled with 'erban kultcha' then? Did I miss something?
Did you know something about Carina's that I didn't?

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM

Clearly Wilberforce was a good man. But what about all the English (yes and others) people who created the Slave Trade. I chose but it was immensely evil. are your proud of them?

No I feel sure you are not - you are picking and choosing

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM

Tell you what, if you don't like this country, then b*gger off somewhere else

I was kinda waiting for someone to say this. Says something about the limits of English tolerance, donchathink?

At least it lets me advertise one of my favourite (English) websites: ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:21 PM

It seems a reasonable suggestion to me — there are plenty of other places if it's so intolerable to stay here racked with vicarious guilt for the iniquities of some of your ancestors. You say Lizzie is picking & choosing — so are all of you who insist on picking & choosing, e.g., the slavers over Wilberforce.

I am reminded of the Lord High Executioner's 'little list' in W S Gilbert's The Mikado, of 'society offenders who'd be bettr underground, and never would be missed'; which included "The idiot who praises with enthusiastic tone All centuries but this and every country but his own".

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:34 PM

Seems to me that there is an attempt to make an argument that unless you uncritically accept all aspects of English culture and English history wholesale - including the dodgy bits - you should somehow belong elsewhere. Personally I'd say that was a crock. My England is the country of the Peasants Revolt, the English Revolution, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the struggle for universal suffrage and so on - not the England of Empire, child labour, enclosure, feudalism, royalty and so on. I celebrate our long held tradition of dissent and radicalism. Yes, I'm picking and choosing, but I'm also saying that just because I chose to celebrate a different aspect of English culture and history to some posters here, it doesn't follow I want to live abroad. MtheGM is missing the point by a few hundred miles...

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:39 PM

Lizzie is picking & choosing

Always has done, lacking as she does the faintest notion of context.
She picks a word here and a word there and weaves them into an absurd parody of Linda Lee-Potter, entirely unrelated to points already presented.

Comparison with The Mikado is apt though. Not Nanky Poo but the Three Little Maids who skipped school.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:52 PM

Sorry Lizzie, I guess that because I "do not have England running through every part of me", my blood being far to diluted by Russian, Polish and Welsh ancestry I will never understand or be able to explain to anyone who is English, through and through, what I am trying to get across. My fault for thinking otherwise.

But if you cannot, or willfully will not, see the the world of difference between The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician and "Churcill is not PART of England" then I cannot see the point of continuing the conversation at all. Considering that it has nothing to do with the question asked in the opening post it is no great loss.

Better all round if we stick to our own parts of England, be they past, present or future.

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM

It wasn't Nanky Poo, Diane; it was Ko-Ko. And the Little Maids hadn't skipped school; they had grown up and left, "Freed from a genius tutelary"...

I was being a wee bit tongue in cheek, I admit, Nigel — just felt like getting that Gilbert quote in as having at least some relevance, in that the tone of you absolute all-out denunciators does occasionally verge on Gilbert's 'idiots' in the song. But I do take your point in general — tho I don't agree with all the things you choose to denounce: neither Empire nor Royalty, it seems to me, has always been the sort of unmitigated disaster you appear to rubricate.

Michael

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:55 PM

Sorry Les, but as a native of Hull, brought up on Wilberforce from a tender age you need to understand this simple but horrifying fact. When Wilberforce proposed his Bill for Abolition of the Slave trade there were 10,000 people per year being traded as slaves off the coast of West Africa. Today there are 100, 000 per year (mostly children). Don't blame the English for that. By the way we abolished Slavery by Bill of Parliament, the Americans had to fight a staggeringly bloody Civil War which still did not achieve that end. Brazil banned slavery as late as the 1880s but I don't hear you slagging them off.
I really don't give a toss about peoples stance on their country or nationality but I'm heartily sick of living in a society where extreme views on anything from a neurotic minority force the majority of decent people into a corner. We objected to Apartheid in South Africa but suddenly we have fear of terrorists, paedophiles, alcohol abusers, benefit fraudsters and any other minority you can think of, ruling our lives and forcing legislation upon us which does nothing to protect but everything to inhibit freedom and strangle the healthy growth of culture and tradition. Why aren't you all objecting to that?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:04 PM

Irrelevent, Paul. All Les and many others, myself included, are saying is that Wilberforce, Morris Dancing and tea on the village green are not the full picture. Neither are the "evil mill owners". Neither are the "terrorists, paedophiles, alcohol abusers, benefit fraudsters and any other minority you can think of". The song is a trite and particularly poorly thought out bit of jingoism. The England it portrays does not and never has existed. The whole point is there are many, many exceptionaly good things but there are also, as you are pointing out, many bad things as well. On the whole I think the balance is in favour of the good.

And many people do object to the things you mention. But not on this thread. Why should they?

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:07 PM

"Why aren't you all objecting to that?"

Because that would be thread drift...

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:17 PM

You surely don't expect me to be arsed to check exactly who played what in a crappy d'Oyly Carte production that tried to satirise English politics by setting it in Japan, do you? That really is dragging it down to Devon AmDram level. The entire point is that while lizziecornish (in common with the drippy maids) did allegedly (though there's little evidence of it) attend school, she is of the opinion that no-one else should. Indeed, the English state school system is one of the main targets of her ranting.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:53 PM

Has anybody here considered stopping licking the dessicated arses of the deceased and like err getting on with the business of doing and making stuff? ..Which might incidentally end up being a bit English or sumthimg. Oh, thought not. Me neither, what a bummer.. x

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:18 PM

DeG, ok your point is taken. If the thread had maintained a dispassionate focus on the original posting that would be fine. It didn't. Drift towards a leftist condemnation of anything not similarly leftist actually proved the point of the writer of the poem/song. I think the proclamation that a given view of England never existed is equally ill-informed. History is a set of opinions. We were not there so we simply don't know. To pronounce that one view or another is inaccurate is inappropriate. My experience of living in this country since 1950 is coloured by the fact that I had effective caring parents and grandparents. It was an English idyll. The fact that this was not my grand-parents experience, nor that of my parents does not alter my own, truthful perception of my environment of circumstances.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:36 PM

Tug The Cox had it right, back on Oct. 15th. To be 'proud' of being born English, when one never had any choice in the matter, is silly.
As far as the substance and style of the piece goes, I'm with Greg Stephens.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM

I have only been here three years less, Paul. My parents were both very caring as were my Granparents who were, however, 1 Russian, 1 Polish, 1 English and 1 Welsh and my perceptions are equaly coloured. You have it right when you say History is a set of opinions. We were not there so we simply don't know. but go on to say To pronounce that one view or another is inaccurate is inappropriate. which sort of contradicts the former. In light of what you say everyones view is coloured by their experience and therefore inaccurate to anyone but themselves, surely. In light of the discussion it is neither inaccurate nor inappropriate to say the views, and even the 'facts' (GB Shaw is English!), quoted in the song are inaccurate by any standards.

Which, hopefuly, brings us back on track to views, coloured or otherwise, of the song:-) I believe it is trite and misleading jingoism. Others believe it to be not so. So be it. Let the debate continue!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 10:22 PM

'You surely don't expect me to be arsed to check exactly who played what in a crappy d'Oyly Carte production that tried to satirise English politics by setting it in Japan, do you?'

Not a matter of what I expect, Diane; but what you should: accuracy will enhance your point; inaccuracy undermine it. You thought you could rejoin by showing your knowledge of the work in question (never mind how 'crappy' you might consider it) was equal to mine; you demonstrated the opposite - and then tried to make a virtue of getting it wrong by turning defensively aggressive when this was pointed out. Bound to convince everyone of the rightness of your position — not.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:56 AM

The thread is about what's wrong with England, not idotic amdram (though this may well have been a feature of life in boring suburban Pinner which madlizziecornish insists is "not in London" despite being on the tube.

The OP cited a pile of xenophobic, inaccurate drivel. MLC dragged up (as usual) some unintentionally borderline racist lyrics from her once-fave pub-rock band. All stuff that illustrates supremely what is wrong with an unthinking, prejudiced, Daily Mail-driven populace.

The way back for England isn't to gaze dreamily at chocolate box lids and yearn for what never was and rant garbage about "in my day". England has changed irrevocably, in many ways for the better. There is room enough to recall and emulate the massive struggles of the past for progressive land reform and emancipation. And for education (yes x 3). All this can be, and is, reflected in the range of music out there from musicians such as the aforementioned Billy Bragg and look! A new English Acoustic Collective newsletter has just arrived in my inbox . . .

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish, still too tired to log in..
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:14 AM

If those concerned had bothered to look at the Amazing Change link I posted above...they'd have seen that slavery is now more abundant than ever...as Paul has so eloquently pointed out above.

The Amazing Change grew out of the thoughs and beliefs of William Wilberforce, who is now inspiring a whole new generation of young people to make a difference.   We should be proud that William was English...and his name should be mentioned right alongside slavery, at each and every opportunity, to show that far from being a land of tyrannical oppressors, as the far left would have people believe, we are a land of brave souls too, many of whom will stand up in the face of terrible adversity to fight for what is right..giving their whole lives to that cause.   It still goes on today...

My country is NOT bad...and I deeply object to those who try to portray it as such.

Diane, Pinner is in Middlesex, or used to be, unless they've changed the goal posts. It did NOT come under London..nor was it a heaving blob of 'erbun kultcha'....I lived there from babyhood to adulthood, so if you don't mind, I know it one helluva lot better than you do.

Dave, I've Spanish blood in me, even having 'de Torres' in my name.

So what?

It is England that flows through me.

It is England that is my home.

It is England that I love.

It is England that I am proud of.

I remember watching Churchill's funeral, so I'm sorry, but he too is very much a part of my England. We each have our own England I guess, but mine is not just stuck in the present, it incorporates the past right alongside the present and the future...and I will not have anyone tell me that Today's England is nothing to do with Yesterday's England, because it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

There are many things in the past that we have let go, many precious things, and it is to our detriment. Those things can be brought back again. I have always believed that you should carry the best from the past into the present, and protect them, carry them forward for the future.

I will not let the Extreme Left bully me into their way of thinking, their vision of England. England belongs to us all, of all faiths, all colours, all backgrounds.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:23 AM

"The way back for England isn't to gaze dreamily at chocolate box lids and yearn for what never was and rant garbage about "in my day". England has changed irrevocably, in many ways for the better."


But...it DID exist, Diane. I know, I was IN it. I was there...as were millions of us...and this attitude of denial has, imo, fed the BNP masses of voters.

It will continue to send people over to the BNP too, and that is a terrible danger.

Stop denying the good, wonderful, beautiful, incredible, heart-soaring things about our past, because this constant moan of 'it was never like that, we were a Land of Bullies' has had the most terrible effect on this country, and is now giving rise to a terrible anger.

That anger is being sent down the wrong paths. You know it. I know it. So *why* do you insist in carrying it on?

Do you WANT people to walk down the BNP path????????

The BNP have seized upon this 'Do NOT be proud to be English because we're all Oppressors' shit, and they have spun it to their own advantage.

It makes me so bloody mad...and so bloody sad.


And yet, you talk to ME of education????????   You cannot see even the most obvious thing, when it is staring you in the face!

The Extreme Left have handed voters to the Extreme Right.

And that is something you are proud of??????


Go get Educated, Honey.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:53 AM

As the thread has wandered so far from the point I suppose it doesn't matter anymore so...

What about the price of fish nowadays? 2 sea bass fillets, £12.95! Sheesh. Bloody French and Spanish have a lot to answer for,

John and Edward instead of Rachel? Oh, come on!

And they still haven't done anything with the Lancastrian Hall in Swinton. Closed for 5 years now and a waste of space. Isn't it about time they either pulled it down or used it for something else?

There must be other things on people's minds. Looks like this is the thread to air them all...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:02 AM

What bit of "England has changed irrevocably, in many ways for the better" don't you get? It's better because it's multicultural and in some areas of economic and social thinking, more liberal. This is in direct conflict with what BNP policies (such as they are) project. What bollocks to proclaim that they don't want the English to be oppressors. That is exactly what they want and declare it (not quite so openly these days) to be so.

In the 70s I reported on National Front (forerunnner to the BNP) public order trials and wrote features on open police harassment of ethnic minorities. This has now improved (marginally) for the better. In the early 80s I worked on the Outer West London Women's Employment Project, a GLC initiative (under Ken Livingstone). Harrow, in which the urban district of Pinner is situated, was one of those Outer West London boroughs. Pity you didn't come along and get politically, socially and economically educated. Were you warbling trashy G&S instead?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Lizziei Cornish
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:38 AM

"What bollocks to proclaim that they don't want the English to be oppressors..."

I proclaimed NO such thing, Diane...and well you know it, so stop twisting my words for your own agenda.

I said this:

>>>Do you WANT people to walk down the BNP path????????

The BNP have seized upon this 'Do NOT be proud to be English because we're all Oppressors' shit, and they have spun it to their own advantage.

It makes me so bloody mad...and so bloody sad.<<<


They have taken the anger caused by the Left saying the English ARE and always have been Oppressors....and using it to gain votes.


Also, Pinner was in the COUNTY of Middlesex, when I was growing up. Not a clue where they've moved it to now....but I was a Middlesex lass throughout my 27 years there. But you can try to tell folks I grew up in London, if it turns you on.

The Chocolate Box existed...it still exists.

England is in some ways better...and in many ways worse.

It is worse because we have so many who don't even know their roots any longer, because their history has been denied them, apart from the bad bits, which have been layered on them with a trowel.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:17 AM

Actually Lizzie, I admire your anger but something made me pause the other day and it was a voice that said, 'Penny for the Guy?'. I turned and noticed a lone Asian youth with his hand out. Later that day I had a similar experience but the young man was black. Now this is interesting because throughout the lead up to Nov 5th I had no such encounter with what has been termed (idiotically) the 'indigenous English'. The point I'm trying to make is that here was one of your English traditions being kept alive by members of the minorities. I found it refreshing (I'm not a great fan of Guy Fawkes night by the way - he was a fellow Yorkshireman who wanted to blow up the government:-) that the so called multi-cultural society was working in favour of Englishness.
In my day to day life I live and work in a place where multi-culturalsm is non-existent and where the young people are voting for the BNP. I deplore it but you are right - they do so because they are completely ignorant of what it means to be English - fairness, defender of the right to say what you think (even if others don't agree), tolerance, kindness to strangers etc. I meet and speak to over 450 young people every week and they do not know about Wilberforce, they do not even understand (in many cases) why we have Rememberance Day in November (my school allows poppies but thats as far as it goes). Most of these youngsters do not know where their roots lie and, as stated above they reach 18 and vote for BNP in increasing numbers.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:32 AM

England is founded on class-division, oppression, subjugation and exploitation; our culture is built on the tortured backs of the rural & urban working-class and this continues to be the case today. The other day in Liverpool we took shelter from the downpour in St Georges Hall, this noble edifice of a particularly English take on Classicism wherein the sumptuous banqueting hall is built over the prison cells below; a testimony to the pre-requisites of mass squalor, poverty, crime and human depravity which is truly England's Glory. This is the country I was born into and I am under no illusions about our Heritage, nor of the evil represented by the pictures on The Chocolate Box, much less the tooth-rotting folksie twee faux-pourri Country House / Cathedral horrors it contains by way of marketing a myth however so comforting that myth might be. Personally, I've always preferred Jonathan Meades to Alan Titchmarch anyway.

Otherwise...

I see in the advert box opposite this thread a DVD of England My England in which Michael Ball plays Henry Purcell and Simon Callow and Lucy Speed play intriguing double roles which contrasts the England of today (or the sixties?) with Purcell's time. Ball is remarkably good as I recall though I haven't seen the film in a while; I taped it on VHS when it first shown on CH4 back in the Purcell Tercentenary year (how long ago that feels!) and I don't think it's been shown again.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:47 AM

At last sense

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:58 AM

'England is founded on class-division, oppression, subjugation and exploitation; our culture is built on the tortured backs of the rural & urban working-class and this continues to be the case today.'
Wow! – this is 'sense'?
I submit that the above is about as realistic and as accurate as the 'chocolate box' view indicating bias in the opposite direction.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:20 AM

Well Paul, I think the key word is founded. The differences between the poorest and the richest in terms of wealth and power are massive.

I guess we all celebrate Wilberforce but England, whatever that means, created an Empire based on racism, cruelty and exploitation didn't it. As we keep saying this was not the responsibility of our generation.

The main point, if their is one, is that "England" did lots if things some good some bad.

What is the point of being proud of the good bits whilst not being ashamed of the bad bits? I cant see the point of either.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:40 AM

I was born into the industrial heartland of the South-East Northumbrian coal-field in 1961; a landscape of colliery villages, working pits and thriving communities dominated by the iconic chimneys of Blyth Power Station - a cathedral of the modern-age that powered our homes and record players as we played our Can, Faust and Gong albums. For the first 18 years of my life that was my world, my people, my culture, my England - but it's all gone now - no more pits, and no more power station; a landscape that only exists in my dreaming - and a couple of films on YouTube!

Blyth Power Station Record Breaker Part 1 (featuring Ewan MacColl???)

Backworth Colliery 1974

I submit that the above is about as realistic and as accurate as the 'chocolate box' view indicating bias in the opposite direction.

What planet are you on, Paul??