BS: The Delusion delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: John P
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 03:01 PM

Georgiansilver, I read your accounts of your conversion. It is clear that you had a hugely life-changing experience that has made your life immeasurably better. What I still don't understand is how you get from that to virgin birth, rose from the dead, god-as-man, Satan, and all the other trappings of religion. There was nothing in your testimony that covers that.

Intensely moving, live-changing spiritual experiences have been known and well-documented through all of history and in all cultures, as has "unexplained" healing. How is your experience different than a non-Christian's, and why does it make you believe in all the stuff in the Bible? Why not have a deeply spiritual experience and be a better person without all the impossible explanations?

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 03:18 PM

John P: "Why not have a deeply spiritual experience and be a better person without all the impossible explanations?...."

Because, out of the willingness to share something deeply personal, and spiritual, and because he actually may have something there. ..and because he was challenged, with much hostility.

Maybe he was attempting to make the world a better place.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 07:40 PM

John P.. it may have escaped your notice but if you had read 'Mikes Testimony' and 'Mikes Healing' via the link in a previous post of mine you would have realised that both my 'recognition'... for want of a better word that God exists.... and my healing came from Christian meetings and my subsequent way of life is as a direct result of those things....
All true Christians will totally understand where I am coming from..... Like it says in my testimony... 'You don't have to understand to believe... you have to believe to begin your understanding'..... that is so true..... However.. reaching a point of belief for some is a choice... for some is a revelation... and for others a non-entity....
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 08:21 PM

Asking for evidence, Guest ex-Sanity, is not asking for proof. A million scientists have sought and found evidence and are very cheerful about the fact that proof is not what they have found. Your red mist has blinded you to one or two rather obstinate realities in that department, unfortunately. As for the second part of your post, maybe I'm just thick but I can't see any kind of argument being made there. Well, that's what the red mist does I suppose. Makes you flail around aimlessly and uselessly in all directions. Happy new year.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 09:31 PM

evidence
: evidence that is of the same kind as evidence already offered as proof of the same factual matter —compare CORROBORATING EVIDENCE in this entry

evidence
c.1300, "appearance from which inferences may be drawn," from Fr. évidence , from L.L. evidentia "proof," originally "distinction," from L. evidentem (see evident). Meaning "ground for belief" is from late 14c., that of "obviousness" is 1660s. Legal senses are from c.1500, when it began to oust witness . As a verb, from c.1600. Related: Evidenced ; evidencing
1.
that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
2.
something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.
3.
Law . data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.
–verb (used with object)
4.

World English Dictionary
evidence (ˈɛvɪdəns) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide


— n
1.         ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood

"PROOF"

Proof (truth), sufficient evidence or argument for the truth of a proposition

Proof In scientific research evidence is accumulated through observations of phenomena that occur in the natural world, or which are created as experiments in a laboratory or other controlled conditions. Scientific evidence usually goes towards supporting or rejecting a hypothesis.

One must always remember that the burden of proof is on the person making a contentious claim. Within science, this translates to the burden resting on presenters of a paper, in which the presenters argue for their specific findings. This paper is placed before a panel of judges where the presenter must defend the thesis against all challenges.

When evidence is contradictory to predicted expectations, the evidence and the ways of making it are often closely scrutinized (see experimenter's regress) and only at the end of this process is the hypothesis rejected: this can be referred to as 'refutation of the hypothesis'. The rules for evidence used by science are collected systematically in an attempt to avoid the bias inherent to anecdotal

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:53 AM

Claiming that God intervened and suddenly changed your life is a contentious claim. It may require the laws of physics to be transgressed, especially if something apparently miraculous is alleged to have occurred. I call anything of that ilk contentious, to say the least. Even so, I'm not putting the burden of proof on anyone. I just want some evidence, that's all. Someone's say-so is not evidence, any more that my telling you that an Egyptian vulture just flew over my house in Cornwall is evidence. It's a claim. A claim is not evidence. Saying you had a pain that suddenly vanished is a claim. I've had that several times in my life. I had a pain in my abdomen for ten years that I was told I had to live with. It's gone. I had distressing ectopic heartbearts for many years that I was told I'd have to live with. Gone. Not gradually. Both rather suddenly. Had the improvements coincided with my attending a church I would still not associate them with any God. Why should I? A good thing that happens to you is just a coincidence if it happens at the same time as you attended a service. How many services were attended unaccompanied by an improvement? I could have have gone to church every day during my ten years of pain, then on the day it mysteriously cleared up claimed it was God wot done it. Oh yeah? How many devout Christians attend services then have something very bad happen to them? Those poor people in Haiti? Do they associate the bad thing with God? Why does God visit his goodness so partially? Because it's not God, that's why. It's coincidences. It's very interesting that God's miraculous interventions are never things that would actually provide evidence, someone growing back a missing leg for example. Now that would be something. As for the rest, it's just delusion, but, if it lights your fire, go with it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:38 PM

Steve Shaw: ".....I just want some evidence, that's all...."

Steve, Here's a C/P from another thread, that should direct you to your evidence/proof. Some parts are in the context of a directed question, in regards to a question about Pete Seeger, who was in topic to the question posed, at that time.
You may want to read it all carefully, and consider what's being laid out. It's not up for argument, but you may consider trying it.
I don't think you'll find anything, anyone can SAY to convince you of any evidence/proof. That would only come from the source!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both religion and politics are the biggest frauds perpetrated on the human race, to control masses of people!

That being said, it does not mean there is 'no God', or people can't find a way to live civilly with each other. There are the 'manipulators', the profiteering controllers, who establish 'qualifications' and 'regulations' as not to let people free from his grip!

When we speak of 'God', aren't we referring to 'Light', 'Love' to be the origin of life...and what all things are made of?..or the marriage of the two??? If its 'Love', isn't love conscious? Could there just be a link to that love, and light, that links us together...and it IS conscious??...and we can tap into it?...and be in consistency with its attributes?

I think it's possible..not only do I think its possible, I think its a form of 'death', not be at peace with that..or separated from it...not only that, just plain stupid!..and self absorbed. You think you are an island, detached from every energy, seen or unseen, in this dimension???
Think about it!
...and if it is a conscious energy, communicate with it...manifest it, and don't limit your access to it, with block-headed opinions. Maybe listen to what 'IT' has to communicate to you!

I'm sure Pete, in his deepest private moments has his 'communications', and possibly sees some consistencies with things in the Bible. I wouldn't take it as a 'disappointment'...by the way, Dylan is sayin' the same thing, now..Biff Rose, for years! Sting, another, all of 'Celtic Woman'..along with others. It hasn't hurt their artistic abilities..in fact, just the opposite! Doesn't 'God' have creative attributes???..How much are they creating??? How much are you?? how much does it touch people? How deep? Don't you think if you could tap into the 'Big Consciousness', you'd find anything, common among mankind?..then speak it it??..deeper??

I certainly wouldn't let someone elses spiritual tap, threaten YOUR view of them...maybe you're the one who doesn't get it....but hold onto your closed off trip.
Just a thought.

Then again, if there is a conscious energy, Love,and Light and you wanted to 'get acquainted' with it, why should it,(Love)refuse an honest request, from a sincere heart????

Ask...and watch. Maybe we're not all wrong. Maybe its cool! No where in the Bible, does it say that we're 'going to heaven', which is a popular distortion, by the 'manipulators'.....BUT, it DOES say, that heaven is coming to us!!...(and they even bullshit you about what that is, too!)

Find out yourself.
Once you do, you'll know..and know why.
Believing in God is hardly a choice, to those who have had an experience, in which 'God', makes itself plain and obvious...and yet, still, NOT as portrayed within the confines of a denominational slant. Its bigger!....and unless you've experienced that experience, or one that comes to you, in whatever form it takes, I'd just be another person, giving a 'rap' that another may not understand. Seeger seems to have had 'something' that made a connection for him. It's rather personal...but, "The children of light will be, permitted to look through each others eyes"-- Paul 'Biff' Rose (another one, and friend of mine, from the past).

But 'prove it'?...I've given a lot on that, but then you'd have to go back into some earlier posts, in which the 'adamantly argumentative' get into absurdity trying to discredit(read: 'preposterous excuses'), of justifying their particular boneheaded stubbornness....and I don't want to open the post up with a 'battle of wits with unarmed people'.

So, all I can say is 'ASK'. Sincerely ask, If you get no answer, blow it off.....but if you keep getting little answers, and keep ignoring it..well..that is your own stupidity. Just ask!..Its up to you to 'plug in' not up to me to talk you into anything. If I can talk you into something, then somebody can talk you out of it! So, ask for real, and pay attention. If you get answers, as to 'God' revealing something to you....hey, pay attention. The rest is between you and 'God'.
Maybe you might want to ask Pete, and find out how it came down to him...you ain't going to believe me!

Happy Looking!

ASK.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:58 PM

Definition of Circumstantial evidence.... 'Circumstantial evidence is evidence not of the actual fact to be proved but of other facts from which that fact may be presumed with almost certainty' ... I learnt that as a Police Officer in the 1960s.. as part of the understanding of the laws in the UK but I do believe it has some relevance here.
2010 years after the death of Jesus... one sixth of the worlds population are Christian... why???
All claim to have had an experience of the presence of the Lord by supernatural revelation.. by the word of God or by Spirit knowledge.
Steve... I guess you think all those people are deluded...... I guess in reality they don't really worry about what you think.... I have no problem with you thinking me deluded.... we all have delusions of one sort or another.....
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:00 PM

By the way Steve... I love the fact that we measure time from the death of Our Lord.. gives it some extra oomph don't you think!

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 04:44 PM

Those pesky little bugs, those that infect the mind and body, often brought on by our own habits, found running rampant on the Net, in history, in pounds of paper used in treatises, in pronouncements from "authorities" who spew from pulpits, news broadcasts, blogs, winding up as "memes" and that are often given far more weight than they deserve are convertible viruses that are called "holy" or "spiritual".

Crosses burnt on lawns, leaders assassinated as they transgress, beheadings under holy law, those laws that are now being used to make people afraid, ritual wars, those underpinning the troubles in Ireland or the conflict in the Middle East, children abused,
and bloodshed are all brought forth in the name of religion.

Isn't it time to look for alternatives such as rationality, humanistic concerns, and thinking outside of the prison of dogma and vague, misty generalities such as a god or spirituality?

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:38 PM

What Pete Seeger, or any other ancient folkie, or still less that charlatan Bob Dylan, and, definitely, very very very least of all, Sting, may think is of little concern to me. Well it's interesting of course but no more so than the musings of anyone else. I have no such people up on pedestals, thanks, especially when they're people who gain some sort of fame in one arena then start to sound off about something entirely unrelated to what they're famous for. Pete Seeger on religion is about as relevant as Sir Paul McCartney on the rare butterflies of the Bude Marshes Nature Reserve. And, for the two millionth and third time (please listen, will you, for a bloody change), I'm not asking anyone for proof of anything. I just want to see some reasonably convincing evidence. That does not include what a bloke and his like-minded mates (as opposed to independent witnesses, preferably of a reasonably sceptical nature) want to claim about some kind of bogus religious healing thing. I've already covered that so I won't dwell on it. Let me suggest an alternative approach. Look at the world in all its wonderful diversity and beauty. Then just dwell for a minute on how gloriously ordinary it all is. Everything you see is in harmony with itself, with everything else (except when we clumsy naked apes screw it up, of course) and with the laws of physics. That's joyously brilliant to me. It makes me want to explore and find out more, in the delicious knowledge that the more I learn the more I'll want to learn. When ordinariness is so sublime, there's no need to superimpose something extra-ordinary on top. In fact, not only is that pointless, it's abject and it's intellectually-stunting. It just stops you looking. You have a bogus "answer" which kills your curiosity. If you ask me why we're here, I haven't a clue really but I'm sure it's something to do with the need to be curious, never to stop looking. And that superimposing thing stops you doing that thing that you so aimlessly accuse me of not doing - asking.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:44 PM

"In fact, not only is that pointless, it's abject and it's intellectually-stunting. It just stops you looking. You have a bogus "answer" which kills your curiosity."

Sounds like a great definition of Atheism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:51 PM

2010 years after the death of Jesus... one sixth of the worlds population are Christian... why???

Only one sixth? That isn't very good if you ask me! In any case, as I've said before, weight of numbers is not evidence. You can't make an argument out of that. It's a kind of last resort. I suppose that if you ask the populace (I haven't done a survey) whether burglars should be flogged and castrated, one sixth of them would likely agree with you, at a guess. And that's a free question at least. On the other hand, being a Christian is what most Christians have been railroaded into. Tradition, parental/social pressure, christening at birth and threats of ostracism or hellfire all help to swell the numbers. I'd be quiet about that one sixth if I were you. It actually sounds quite pathetic when you consider the methods that Christianity has had at its disposal for two thousand years. As for dating everything from Christ's alleged birth, I don't give a damn.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:57 PM

In fact, not only is that pointless, it's abject and it's intellectually-stunting. It just stops you looking. You have a bogus "answer" which kills your curiosity."

Sounds like a great definition of Atheism.

I'd rather just say that it characterises one aspect of atheistic thinking, if there is such a thing. Can't speak for all atheists, of course, not least because I don't want that wacky sailor chappie berating me again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 10:32 PM

Not in an argumentative spirit:

Well, I guess, Steve, that you really didn't want your proof..otherwise, you go at least make an attempt to get it. Then you try to point to some 'scientific'(?) reason to explain it all away. Hmm, doesn't sound like much 'science' is within you...if it was, you'd go investigate all the possibilities...such as people who are truly into science do.
Still, I cannot do anything for you, that you are closed off, in your mind to really do...fair enough?
In that case, your closed off mind, is a block, to processing information....not only of this, but other things as well...and truly, that is a shame!
'Intelligence' is the ability to processes information...and yet, fear, and pride, prevents you..in this area, and others as well, I'm sure. The loss is yours....By the way, I'd lay odds, that your music, and performance, suffers from the same blockages.
Ever make mistakes, while playing in front of people because of 'self-consciousness??? Fear, and pride do that. Time to grow?

Think about it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:38 AM

>>>>>>>>Then just dwell for a minute on how gloriously ordinary it all is<<<<<<<< Steve, have you ever stopped for a moment to think how complicated the whole thing is.... even down to something as 'ordinary' as a leaf? Pick one up and look at it... I mean really look at it. There's nothing 'ordinary' about this wondrous world we live in.... even your scientists must marvel at its' complexity and balance!!!
>>>>>>>>What Pete Seeger, or any other ancient folkie, or still less that charlatan Bob Dylan, and, definitely, very very very least of all, Sting, may think is of little concern to me. <<<<< Apparently what anyone says is of little concern to you because you are obviously happy being just the way you are!! Well that must be great for you......
>>>>>>>>That does not include what a bloke and his like-minded mates (as opposed to independent witnesses, preferably of a reasonably sceptical nature) want to claim about some kind of bogus religious healing thing.<<<<<<< My healing was real... how can you... I understand you have infinite incredible knowledge... but how can you declare it was bogus?
Open your eyes and ears Steve.. you might learn something different!
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,p
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM

i know i said similar before steve,but being christians and creationists has not stopped some great scientists from inquiring and making advances in science.it was infact their faith,and not despite it, that inspired them in their research.
i see the old charge that religion accounts for most of human suffering is wheeled out again;albeit ever so eloquently.
i suspect that the multiple millions butchered by atheist dictaters might want to differ,if they could.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 12:39 PM

Well, I guess, Steve, that you really didn't want your proof..otherwise, you go at least make an attempt to get it. Then you try to point to some 'scientific'(?) reason to explain it all away. Hmm, doesn't sound like much 'science' is within you...if it was, you'd go investigate all the possibilities...such as people who are truly into science do.

Actually, I have a science degree and taught science for 25 years (and was a chief examiner in 'A' Level biology). The "possibility" you are directing me to can only be subjected to scientific investigation if there is some way of getting some scientific evidence for it. Despite my asking repeatedly for this, all I get is uncorroborated claims. You see, the problem is this. Something remarkable happens (Mike suddenly loses his pain). There are several possible explanations for this, all quite feasible and earthbound, none needing any laws of nature to be breached. The illness finally ran its course. His medication finally kicked in successfully. A change in his mentality ended a psychosomatic vicious circle. There are other, less savoury possibilities involving a lack of honesty which I hasten to add I certainly wouldn't ascribe to Mike. I wouldn't be knowing. Yet you and he deliberately seek out what is by several light years the most improbable explanation you can - a supernatural being that no-one has ever seen nor begun to explain suddenly deciding to intervene, just for him - and you try to persuade me that there must be something in it. Let me tell you how science works when you want to solve a problem. You look for the likeliest explanations first and look for confirmation or rejection of each one in turn. You do not start with the zaniest, most outlandish notions which breach all the laws of science. I don't try to explain perturbations in the Earth's orbit by claiming that a ten-thousand-mile-long invisible monster keeps giving us a little shove.

Still, I cannot do anything for you, that you are closed off, in your mind to really do...fair enough?
In that case, your closed off mind, is a block, to processing information....not only of this, but other things as well...and truly, that is a shame!

'Tis you who's closed off I'm afraid. You're closed off to the normal, wanting only supernatural explanations for very natural things, like someone getting better from an illness. It happens all the time. It's normal, not miraculous. Unlikely cures have happened to me too. I tend to put it down to the medical profession not understanding at times what it is that enables healing processes to occur. The planet is littered with people, including me, who unexpectedly got better. You say it's God, I say it's doctors who occasionally don't get it. You reject out of hand any explanation, and there are several plausible possibilities, that is based on the laws of science and choose one which is utterly improbable and unsupportable. And you call me a closed mind. Wacky or what.

'Intelligence' is the ability to processes information...

Sez who?

and yet, fear, and pride, prevents you..in this area, and others as well, I'm sure. The loss is yours....By the way, I'd lay odds, that your music, and performance, suffers from the same blockages.
Ever make mistakes, while playing in front of people because of 'self-consciousness??? Fear, and pride do that. Time to grow?,

You type stuff like this and thereby make a complete fool of yourself. Congratulations on managing to dispel any doubts I might have harboured. I can't think why you'd want to do that. Odd.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM

Steve, have you ever stopped for a moment to think how complicated the whole thing is.... even down to something as 'ordinary' as a leaf? Pick one up and look at it... I mean really look at it. There's nothing 'ordinary' about this wondrous world we live in.... even your scientists must marvel at its' complexity and balance!!!

Not only do we marvel at it, we search for explanations for it. But some of us prefer to avoid the utter irrationality of imposing an "explanation" that is infinitely more difficult to explain in itself than any of the things it is supposedly there to explain. An "explanation" that requires all the laws of science to be breached, that must be far more complex than any of the things it's supposed to explain, and for the existence of which there isn't one scrap of evidence. The marvellous complexity of a leaf is the outcome of millions of tiny evolutionary steps over unimaginably huge periods of time, all normal, all explicable and all in tune with the laws of physics. All normal and ordinary and all wonderful. I suspect that you wish to insert God into this somehow. If you're a closet creationist, let's be having it!

>>>>>>>>What Pete Seeger, or any other ancient folkie, or still less that charlatan Bob Dylan, and, definitely, very very very least of all, Sting, may think is of little concern to me. <<<<< Apparently what anyone says is of little concern to you because you are obviously happy being just the way you are!! Well that must be great for you......

Give me one good reason why I should listen to Pete Seeger on religion. I like Pete Seeger and I listen to what he has to say about human rights and the fight for freedom and justice. I agree with nearly all he has to say on that front and I find him brave and inspiring. Last time I heard, though, he was not known to be a religious guru. What he says on that topic is no more interesting to me than what anyone else says, which isn't to say it isn't interesting at all. I told you this but you weren't listening, apparently.
   
>>>>>>>>That does not include what a bloke and his like-minded mates (as opposed to independent witnesses, preferably of a reasonably sceptical nature) want to claim about some kind of bogus religious healing thing.<<<<<<< My healing was real... how can you... I understand you have infinite incredible knowledge... but how can you declare it was bogus?

I'm not for one second questioning your healing. I told you that I have had similar pleasant surprises in my own life. I do think that the explanation you've come up with is by far the most unlikely one possible. Bogus would seem to be one word that applies, though I admit it carries somewhat pejorative connotations. There are plenty of bogus "healers" around, mind. I bet even you would admit that.

Open your eyes and ears Steve.. you might learn something different!

My eyes and ears are wide open, I assure you, but I tend to start with the most likely explanations first.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 01:15 PM

Nothing new in that post, Pete, and nothing much in focus either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:49 AM

Steve,

Science Vs Faith

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:01 AM

I like that! :-)

It never ceases to amaze me that, in the ordinary world, you'd try to solve a mystery by looking at the apparently likeliest explanations first. In religion, on the other hand, you seek out by far the most improbable and outlandish explanation of all (and the more you can break all the hard-won laws of the universe, the better), and you reinforce your position by telling those people who would much rather investigate the more mundane and earthly (and infinitely more likely) ones that they have closed minds. It beats me why this God chappie of theirs has bothered to give us all such mighty brains when he then requires us to stop using them and resort instead to whimsy, fantasy and magic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM

Steve Shaw... at the moment I am eating the most delicious apple I ever tasted...... can you taste it???

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 09:39 AM

The most delicious apples you could ever taste, in my opinion, are to be found hanging, fully ripe and almost ready to drop, on my ancient Laxton's Fortune tree in early October. Anyone thinking they can top this will need to provide evidence. My mind, as ever, is open.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 10:59 AM

p yesterday was me-mistake.
glad to hear about your inexplicable recoveries steve.we could of course remind you that God is merciful even to the ungodly....
but then again did it really happen/was you really ill...
after all theres no way we can prove it.
does that sound familiar?.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:01 PM

Steve.. I didn't ask you about the most delicious apples you can taste.. I asked if you could taste that delicious apple I was eating.......

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:00 PM

I assure you that my recoveries, whilst surprising, were not inexplicable. One thing's for sure. There was no divine intervention. Just a living body looking after itself. It's what they do. We don't always clearly understand how they do it, that's all. Whatever was going on, the laws of physics were being obeyed, that I know.

I don't really get the apple business, which is why I'm not, apparently, giving you a sensible answer. I suggest turning it into a sensible question.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:28 PM

I prefer Golden Delicious.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:43 PM

>>>>>>> don't really get the apple business, which is why I'm not, apparently, giving you a sensible answer. I suggest turning it into a sensible question.<<<<<<<< amazing... how could I possibly have thought that would be your answer!!!! Because you don't really get it!!! Yep... explains everything to me......

Like a nice Braeburn myself Gnu!

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:48 PM

I didn't know Golden Delicious was actually regarded as an apple as such. Those Braeburns are all simple crunch and juice. I'm very fond of my Cox personally.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:59 PM

Mike, I have no idea what you want me to say or what you're trying to set me up for, but OK, no, I can't taste your bloody apple when you're in Exeter and I'm in Bude. Your point being...? Gerronwi'it!

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 05:58 PM

"in the ordinary world, you'd try to solve a mystery by looking at the apparently likeliest explanations first. In religion, on the other hand, you seek out by far the most improbable and outlandish explanation of all"

This was not always so:

Ockham's Razor

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM

Steve... I'm in Lincolnshire...... Family in Exeter... be there in a couple of weeks.
Not trying to set you up at all but I guess unless you get a taste of something yourself... you can't accept it as being right or true eh???
One day you might taste my Jesus... I hope you do......... no more to say.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 06:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfamPW3Eaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:37 PM

Well Dave, Occam's razor, for what it's worth, favours notions that have the most explanatory power. Tell me how God, as opposed to natural explanations, can come up trumps on explanatory power. No laws of science can be brought into play if God is invoked to explain things, slightly tricky for him I would have thought, and he has the additional burden of being impossible to be explained himself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Steve... I'm in Lincolnshire...... Family in Exeter... be there in a couple of weeks.
Not trying to set you up at all but I guess unless you get a taste of something yourself... you can't accept it as being right or true eh???
One day you might taste my Jesus... I hope you do......... no more to say.
Best wishes, Mike.

Well, this is all a bit doubtful, Mike. I can certainly take on board the opinions of persons of a scholarly nature in their field. If Oz Clarke suggests a particular wine I'd sample it with some confidence. If the bloke who fills the wine shelves in Morrisons wine aisle suggests a bottle I might think differently. I'll hear out Pete Seeger on human rights but not on rare butterflies or religion. There are people who are expert apple tasters. I wouldn't necessarily accept what they say completely without demur but I would listen. You didn't apprise me of your apple-tasting credentials and you did queer the pitch just a little by singing the virtues of the very average, commercial Braeburn. As for your Jesus, I have to tell you that I admire the man, if indeed man he was. I don't admire all the bullshit about miracles/son of God, which were clearly add-ons provided by the tendentious gospel-writers. He wasn't perfect (which kind of rules out the God bit, no?) - I mean, turn the other cheek? Let injustice reign? Not a great idea, judging from what we see in the modern world. And sufficient unto the day? Sounds like the original, archetypal hippie talk to me. Clearly, he didn't have a bunch of kids to worry about. Still, his ideas were excellent. Even if it turns out that he was really just a committee.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:27 PM

"Well Dave, Occam's razor, for what it's worth, favours notions that have the most explanatory power. Tell me how God, as opposed to natural explanations, can come up trumps on explanatory power. No laws of science can be brought into play if God is invoked to explain things, slightly tricky for him I would have thought, and he has the additional burden of being impossible to be explained himself."

Try applying Occam's razor to your question. William of Occam had no problems with the admittedly limited knowledge of maths and science of his time. Are you a creationist or an atheist, Steve? It's hard to tell the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:38 PM

What question am I supposed to be applying it to, Dave? And if you can't tell that I'm not a creationist then I think you have some reading to do. A few hundred posts of mine, to be precise, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 12:38 AM

Occam's Razor tends to dismiss Creationism rather than Science, because Science is an elegant self consistent simple system (with black boxes that still need to be explained): 'Faith' tends to produce complex self contradictory results, hence Occam tends to go with the less complex way...

Of course, The Man of Faith who dismisses/denies 'all that stuff he can't possibly understand' sees the Simple way of 'just his Magic Sky Fairy doing it all' as much easier to 'understand' as just 'one Big Black Box beyond All Human Understanding' .... and thinks he is applying Occam's Razor ...

The two can never be reconciled in the mind of The Man of Faith ... he has to reject that which threatens his own 'simple system' as he cannot 'see' it ... sadly the Man of Science and Logic can also see the way of The Man of Faith, but is unsated ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 09:59 AM

Try applying it to the question I quoted, Steve. And I suspect I've had the pleasure of reading most of your previous posts.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 12:50 PM

You haven't quoted a question, Dave. I can't find anything of mine you've quoted that ends with a ? or which looks like a question. You're not one of those Americans that thinks a tune's a song, are you, by any chance? You might decide to demystify this situation, or you may simply decide that the moment has passed. Fine either way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:01 PM

"tasting my Jesus" is like "dancing with the elves in my garden" ... it is a personal metaphor which depends on subjective definitions and premises positing the reality of elves...and/or Jesus. It already **assumes** the existence of something that is not universally accepted. It is similar to circular reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:04 AM

Steve Shaw: "'Intelligence' is the ability to processes information...
Sez who?"

Well being as you are so bent on people 'proving' the unseen, such as God, or that they might have had an experience with God, right?, and you seem to not agree that "'Intelligence' is the ability to processes information..." then its time for you to PROVE that there is intelligence, and/or you have had an experience with it. Go ahead..We're all waiting!!!!

GFS

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:29 AM

Jeez, Steve, We're still waiting!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:07 AM

I guess intelligence could be the ability to know when to keep your mouth shut!! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:20 AM

"Tell me how God, as opposed to natural explanations, can come up trumps on explanatory power."

That looks suspiciously like a question to me, Steve. and has nothing to do with Occam's razor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:45 AM

Still waiting!!....Me thinks he is even getting boring to himself!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:18 AM

Of course, The Man of Faith who dismisses/denies 'all that stuff he can't possibly understand' sees the Simple way of 'just his Magic Sky Fairy doing it all' as much easier to 'understand' as just 'one Big Black Box beyond All Human Understanding'

Nonsense. I think you demonstrate ignorance by resorting to "Magic Sky Fairy". or is it perhaps a limitation in imagination that only enables picturing a God as such?

As for which is easier, having been on both sides of this, ie. "devout athiest" to attempted Christian,, I can assure you that on a personal level, I found athiesm the easier and the cop out. I find it much harder (and often fail) to keep faith in God.

I think it is a great mistake to believe that science equals athiesm.
Einstein ("I am definitely not an atheist", Darwin ("I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist" are two highly respected scientists I gave earlier in this thread (or the other delusion one) who at least questioned.

It seems odd to me that some will use evolution for example as positive proof that there is no God and I can ask myself (rhetorically) "Are the people doing this really greater scientists than those who developed the theories?".

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:37 AM

Tell me how God, as opposed to natural explanations, can come up trumps on explanatory power."

That looks suspiciously like a question to me, Steve. and has nothing to do with Occam's razor.

Well, it was intended to be a piece of rhetoric, but never mind. Natural explanations are sufficient for phenomena such as improvements in people's health. We might have to dig and delve a bit for individual cases, owing to the fact that medical science hasn't revealed everything. Claiming that a supernatural force intervened is entirely superfluous. Were it to add some explanatory power it would perhaps be valid, but in fact it does the exact opposite. It gives us infinitely more explaining to do. So out with the razor, say I.

Subject: RE: BS: The Delusion delusion.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:01 AM

It's amazing how some people think that there's something about us atheists that exempts us from going to bed. Oh well. As you live in the UK, Mike, I'm surprised that you would even consider joining in with that piece of stupidity. I don't know where Sanity is, but it clearly isn't on this planet.

Steve Shaw: "'Intelligence' is the ability to processes information...
Sez who?"

Well being as you are so bent on people 'proving' the unseen, such as God, or that they might have had an experience with God, right?, and you seem to not agree that "'Intelligence' is the ability to processes information..." then its time for you to PROVE that there is intelligence, and/or you have had an experience with it. Go ahead..We're all waiting!!!!

I have £2.99 digital watch that can process information. I think I bought it on Bury Market. If you want to come up with a definition of "intelligence" you're going to have to improve considerably on that abject attempt above. Frankly, I personally can't be arsed. As for the other bit of your highly lucid post, well I think, if you'll excuse me y'all, that I'm going to have to shout here, as Guest ex-Sanity has a major cloth-ears problem. So, ahem, sharp intake: FOR THE TWO MILLIONTH TIME, I DO NOT WANT YOU OR ME OR ANYBODY ELSE TO PROVE ANYTHING. You can't prove there's a God and I can't prove there isn't a God. It is not possible now, either way, and never will be. I'm not interested in proof either way. I am interested in evidence. Is that clear now? There is a difference you know. Kindly do not tell me again to prove something or that I want proof, otherwise I might have to get very very very cross indeed.

As for people who say they've had experiences with God, etc., I fear they are all deluded. They are not deluded about doing their shopping in Asda, or in supporting Chelsea (though they're getting close there...), or in opining that George Bush is one of the biggest bellends on the planet, or in backing Silverheels in the 3.15 at Haydock Park. You can be deluded about one thing in your life without necessarily being in a general state of overall delusion. I'm sticking to that, even though the deludees concerned might get offended.