BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 07 - 06:05 PM

Liz:

I think it was three, but we could start a holy war on whether three-in-one is the same as two-in-one or one-in-three, and cut each other all up over it. Been known to happen.

Mrrzy, I never thought of you at all when writing that!! :D You are someone who communicates in a lively and interested fashion. That puts you on the side of the angels (and other imaginary playmates of the very best sort) in my book!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 May 07 - 08:53 PM

I would guess that you're talking about the "Don't know nothin', don't wanna know nothin" types, Mrzzy--there are a few in every crowd (present company excepted)--

One of the continuing difficulties that we have with our Great American Social Experiment is that the "Know Nothings" have the same say as the folks who go to great pains to understand things--

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 May 07 - 09:57 PM

The religious ones can rot in Hell. The atheist ones can just rot in the ground.

I always knew there was a reson I liked M.Ted! Please send me that on a t-shirt!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:20 PM

Jonathon Miller has an interesting point. He says, "I'm almost embarrassed to use the word atheist applied to me. After all there is no word for one who doesn't believe in witchcraft."

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:26 PM

"'...there is no word for one who doesn't believe in witchcraft.'"


                  There should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:42 PM

Labels are used as weapons. The word "atheist" is a lightning rod for religious pundits.
The only people who make a big deal out of this are those who have an evangelical agenda.

The reason you hear from Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett, Harris and others is that the Religious Right has grown so obnoxious and strong that they feel it is necessary to push back.

IE: The prejudiced Catholic majority on the Supreme Court who are trying to roll back Roe V. Wade by their new ruling on so-called "partial birth abortions" which are not common and if done it is only to protect the health of the mother or to terminate a life that is fraught with incurable and unbearable physical conditions.

So whether you believe in a god or not, it should not be of concern to anyone.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:49 PM

I'm finishing a book by Dennett now. I agree with most of what he says, but I'd suggest he work on plot development.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:36 PM

I can't read the man. i like everything he says but he's unreadable, to me, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:32 PM

Strongly recommend the battle-tale called "Monkey Girl", currently available on Amazon, for a blow-by-blow of the last sally of Incredulous Design against the Evils of Western Science Brainwashed by Darwinist Commies...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 May 07 - 09:05 AM

"I can't read the man. i like everything he says but he's unreadable, to me, unfortunately."


                Yeah, I wouldn't call it entertainment. He has a lot of interesting things to say, but style is not his strong suit. If a guy's going to get through it, he really has to keep his mind on his business.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 07 - 10:45 AM

Isn't that Credulous Design?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bee
Date: 03 May 07 - 11:00 AM

Cannot 'atheism' be applied to nonbelievers of Wicca? My knowledge of Wicca is slight, but goddess and god (of nature or not, still a deity) have been associated with it in my limited experience (attended a wedding, once). Must I label myself an abhuddist, an ataoist as well? (Apologies to Bhuddists of non-god including sects: I have had some exasperating encounters over the years with a few of the local Tibetan flavour shrine builders).

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 07 - 01:46 PM

Hear, hear, Bee. The loud significance of "atheism" only comes into play against the backdrop of assumed theism, which is a tacit invasion by cultural bias of the free and private ownership of one's own sanity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 07 - 02:06 PM

It is exactly that backdrop of assumed theism, which I agree is an invasion by cultural bias of sanity, which is causing so many atheists to "come out" (see other thread on Are atheists the new gays). Very parallel, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 May 07 - 02:15 PM

It's a cultural bias against sanity, if you ask me, and it's gotten worse over the last 20 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 07 - 10:12 PM

Ringinslinger, where do you live? It's certainly worse where I am - I've lived in Central VA for just about 20 years. It wasn't anywhere near this obnoxious before.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 May 07 - 10:26 AM

Oregon, one of the most progressive states in the union, but the right-wing-crazies are making their presence felt.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 07 - 10:49 AM

If you don't believe in GOD - you believe in nothing.

I have heard people say this. They say they can't get there head around the idea of a person who does not believe in something.

It is a leap of predjudiced faith for a religious bigot to say an athiest believes in nothing, yet to take the conversation farther than that is forbidden by the faithful.





btw
Cristopher Hitchins new book: GOD IS NOT GREAT !

He takes the view that a person of faith is to be disrespected by reasoned minds rather than exalted, since anti rational and anti fact based opinions border more on mental illness than enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 May 07 - 11:59 AM

I have said this before, and I will say it again--this is not about religion. It is about power. The religious crazies aren't crazy, they are bullies--they push people around who are easy to push around because it makes them look strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 May 07 - 02:45 PM

I think there are two types of relgious crazies. The ones who truly believe, and others who pretend to believe in order to use the true believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:52 PM

Well, I'm waiting for the day when superstitions get added to the list of other delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:03 AM

Asked my son, a philosophy major, if he'd like to make a contribution to this thread. He glanced at the title and laughed. "Nah", he said "not worth it. The way that question is phrased, it's not really a question. It's just an attack on anyone who believes in God."

In other words, it's standard Mudcat entertainment. Drivel on, folks!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bee
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:39 AM

Really, Daylia, is it necessary to accuse people who think differently than you do of 'driveling'? To be sure, not every post in these kinds of discussions is fair or correct, but most of us come by our stand on religion, for or against, through earnest and difficult searching, of ourselves and our environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 May 07 - 07:31 AM

OK Bee, please pardon that bit of negativity. Let's just say that attacks on 'God' and believers in God are just par for the course here on Mudcat. Just as they are in the world at large. And this has nothing to do with 'God', and everything to do with the ever-growing threat, tumult and confusion of today's social/political environment, and the power-mongering - veiled as religion - that supports it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 May 07 - 07:40 AM

On second thought, don't bother pardoning that bit of negativity at all, Bee. I'll let it stand, as it harmonizes quite nicely with the rest of the drivel on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 May 07 - 10:36 AM

Daylia - well put!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bee
Date: 05 May 07 - 12:53 PM

Well, then, a pox on all your houses. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 07 - 01:35 PM

Daylia:

Perhaps your son should have read the actual thread, rather than judging it by its sophomoric title.

As for "drivel", that's an easy retreat, and a logical fallacy, but not really a contribution to the dialogue, I would say. One might even go so far as to consider it intolerant.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 May 07 - 03:46 PM

One might, Amos.

And what's your take on, for just one example -- I think there are two types of relgious crazies. The ones who truly believe, and others who pretend to believe in order to use the true believers.   

My son's right.

Best just to drivel on by.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 May 07 - 07:39 PM

"Best just to drivel on by."

                Yes, if he doesn't want to deal with reality!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 May 07 - 09:02 PM

I disagree mightily with a declaration of atheism. I understand being agnostic but I don't understand how anyone can say and believe that they are atheists.

I fully believe in evolution. It is a well-demonstrated fact. We absolutely know that things start out with something, in the course of time are faced with something else and adapt and evolve to take advantage of the new development. That is easily and repeatedly shown.

* But as long as human beings do not know how things begin, how life is created, we cannot know that there was not an instigating force, a creator that can be called a god.

* As long as human beings can not explain simple cases of thought transference, cannot explain prediction and prognostication, cannot explain glimpses of the "other side", cannot explain altruism, cannot, for heaven's sake, even explain love, there is a whole hell of a lot that they don't know.

A personal god, on the other hand, is extremely problematic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:48 AM

Here's an interesting study of how Woodrow Wilson's personal belief in his Divine appointment led indirectly to the skewering of Germany at the end of WW 1, and thence was a causative vector in the development of WW 2. Sigmund Freud provides commentary.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:51 AM

* As long as human beings can not explain simple cases of thought transference, cannot explain prediction and prognostication, cannot explain glimpses of the "other side", cannot explain altruism, cannot, for heaven's sake, even explain love, there is a whole hell of a lot that they don't know.

Hear hear, Ebbie!   :-)
   

I feel more civil
bout all this drivel.
No need to snivel --
you make it shrivel!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 07 - 10:01 AM

That's an interesting article, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:59 PM

There are no empirical data supporting thought transference, prognostication, anything relating to any other sides whether glimpsed or imagined; on the other hand, altruism is (evolutionarily) adaptive. Love is an emotion, and most emotions are pretty well mapped in the brain. No, we don't know the exact details of which molecule and which neuron, but we do know that it is molecules and neurons. So what? Not knowing everything is certainly not evidence for deities.
If you are sure that the entire natural world can be explained by natural law, you can be sure there are no deities involved. You can then be an atheist, not an agnostic.
Who was it said he wasn't agnostic or an atheist, he's acrostic? It's all a puzzle to him!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 07 - 08:39 PM

I stand by what I said. Unless - and until - you personally experience what I'm talking about, you probably will not understand. However, the day you do experience it- and imo you will - I'm not at all certain that you will recognize it. There can come a point when one's energies are vested in maintaining the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:00 PM

Ebbie, what *are* you talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 May 07 - 12:33 AM

hahah I was being subtle. Mostly because I like you and the way your mind works but still want to get across that I think you are way off base.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bee
Date: 07 May 07 - 07:44 AM

"* But as long as human beings do not know how things begin, how life is created, we cannot know that there was not an instigating force, a creator that can be called a god.

* As long as human beings can not explain simple cases of thought transference, cannot explain prediction and prognostication, cannot explain glimpses of the "other side", cannot explain altruism, cannot, for heaven's sake, even explain love, there is a whole hell of a lot that they don't know.

A personal god, on the other hand, is extremely problematic." - Ebbie

There are lots of things we can't explain, but then, not so many years ago we couldn't explain the wasting disease eventually recognised as diabetes, or why we have Northern Lights, or how the ozone layer works.

Some of the prediction, prognostication, ESP, etc., experiences, when not outright fraudulent, can be explained by the way the human brain processes information.

Deja vu, that spooky sensation almost everyone's experienced, has been explained as a memory processing glitch, where an immediate experience is recognised by the brain as a long term memory instead of a just-now-happened memory.

Prediction involves many possible factors.

Example: you dream of an airplane crash, and soon after, an airplane crashes. But airplanes do crash, you may have been worried about someone flying, or are fearful of flying yourself, and it is not an uncommon thing to dream of your fears.

Example: someone makes a spoken prediction that someone will die. I have an aunt who does this, and is embarrassed by it, and is chillingly accurate. But I know my aunt is a very empathetic person, and a keen observer, and has spent a great deal of her free time helping people who are seniors or disabled. I think she unwittingly recognises symptoms of illness that are very subtle, ones she has remembered appeared before other deaths. I think this is a remarkable, if un-nerving, ability, but I seriously doubt that it is 'psychic'.

However, I remain, ever hopeful, an agnostic. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 07 - 08:49 AM

Ah, yes, subtlety. I've heard of it, I think...

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 07 - 08:54 AM

lambs of mercy sakes, when God tells people what to do its our job to get out of the way or get in line and do the lords will.

Critisizing the lords messenger is as bad as questioning your faith.
We don't have Nixon to kick around anymore.
Now for those who bash Bush, my dear, how can we judge lest we be judge ourselves. And if you were to be judged it is clear you will be cast into the lake of fire. You will have plenty of company like members of the World Court.

Oh my goodness gracious our lord and leader doesn't have a quit bone in his body. He is a straight shooter like his vice president and will not quit until God's work is done.

Who wants our lord to quit? oh I don't know, could it be SATAN?

Raise my rent and sack my museum, I don't for the life of me how anyone can condemn our President.
Do you have a long lens of history?
I didn't thnk so.

If we knew what we didn't know now but knew what we didn't know that we were going to know tommorrow we could count our blessings that God has told aourstrong leader who knows what to do and tell us what our opinion should be.

So cheer up neighborlydidoo, There is no need to make things more complicated than they are...

Its simply God's will

and he has plans for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:05 AM

Donuel - you are a riot!

And Ebbie - aren't my energies directed to *changing* the status quo?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:30 PM

The thing is, especially with Jesus, folks keep changing the stroy to fit various agenda they may have, and often end up not telling the story as it really happened, leaving out important elements.

According to The Onion, he is not happy with this situation at all, and is oplanning to do something about it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:05 PM

Is there such a thing as a good Atheist song?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:09 PM

Well, just off the top of my head, "Study War no More" and "Last Night I Dreamed the Strangest Dream" are both inspirational but perfectly suitable to atheism. Most ballads of adventure are, as well. Atheism not being a creed per se, it makes sense there would be no songs asserting it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:13 PM

Thiests get the better end of the deal IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:16 PM

From the DT lyrics:

DOWN BY THE RIVERSIDE

Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside,
Down by the riverside,
Down by the riverside,
Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside,
I'll study war no more.

Cho: I ain't gonna study war no more,
I ain't gonna study war no more,
I ain't gonna study war no more.

Gonna join hands with ev'ryone,
Gonna put on my long white robe,
Gonna put on my starry crown,
Gonna put on my golden shoes,
Gonna walk with the Prince of Peace,

@religion @gospel
filename[ WARNOMOR
JY

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:36 PM

Dang, Wesley, caught me out on that!! LOL I was thinking about the first verse when I wrote. But there are scads of secular songs. I have never heard a song asserting atheism. There's a great parody on "Old Time Religion" which celebrates pantheism, though, naming everyone from Astarte to Zarathustra.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:40 PM

Mrzzy,

You really don't have a lot of insight into what other people think, and, on top of that, a lot of what you think that science proves, hasn't really been proven. So your crusade to change the status quo is really more of an excercise against windmills--I think that's why Ebbie likes you--and feels a "biochemical" need to protect you--

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:44 PM

lol