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BS: Justice For England, English protest songs

GUEST,Paddy 11 May 07 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Heed 11 May 07 - 09:53 AM
Toobusybee 11 May 07 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Ned Quatermass 10 May 07 - 01:35 PM
Toobusybee 10 May 07 - 09:05 AM
Joe Offer 10 May 07 - 03:01 AM
Jim Lad 09 May 07 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one) 09 May 07 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Puck 09 May 07 - 02:00 PM
Jim Lad 09 May 07 - 01:00 PM
The Borchester Echo 09 May 07 - 12:52 PM
Jim Lad 09 May 07 - 12:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 May 07 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,anonymous for my own safety 09 May 07 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,heed 02 May 07 - 12:00 PM
Jim Lad 02 May 07 - 11:24 AM
The Borchester Echo 02 May 07 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,George 02 May 07 - 09:58 AM
Gulliver 01 May 07 - 09:18 PM
Jim Lad 01 May 07 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,heed 01 May 07 - 11:30 AM
Jim McLean 01 May 07 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Keith 01 May 07 - 08:21 AM
George Papavgeris 01 May 07 - 05:50 AM
Jim Lad 01 May 07 - 03:49 AM
Ruth Archer 01 May 07 - 03:05 AM
Jim Lad 30 Apr 07 - 07:02 PM
Jim McLean 30 Apr 07 - 06:55 PM
The Barden of England 30 Apr 07 - 06:37 PM
Jim Lad 30 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM
The Barden of England 30 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM
Jim Lad 30 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM
Jim Lad 30 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM
The Sandman 30 Apr 07 - 01:20 PM
Jim McLean 30 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 07 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,heed 30 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,heed 30 Apr 07 - 05:15 AM
Jim Lad 30 Apr 07 - 03:49 AM
Ruth Archer 30 Apr 07 - 03:04 AM
melodeonboy 29 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins 29 Apr 07 - 05:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Apr 07 - 05:04 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Keith 29 Apr 07 - 10:17 AM
Ruth Archer 29 Apr 07 - 10:06 AM
The Sandman 29 Apr 07 - 09:47 AM
Ruth Archer 29 Apr 07 - 09:07 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:20 PM

The Liberals in Scotland are denying the Scottish people the choice of a referendum on whether they want independence or not! Some Liberals!


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Heed
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:53 AM

I though this had died! A few points:
1) One of the organisers of the Justice for England March, Ed Abrahams, is jewish.
2) Should all "right wingers" to be despised? Including those of the centre right?
3) Is libertarianism right wing?

I'm confused?


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Toobusybee
Date: 11 May 07 - 06:56 AM

I wasn't being vitriolic, just interested as it covered a period which I had studied. Although my office is pretty chock full of history graduates we're all rather busy to have more than 5-10 minutes discussions of anything that is not work related - luckily we do work in HE (not a university)and we bring in scholars from the Commonwealth so it's interesting to discuss some of the scholars proposed research topics.

Toobusybee


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Ned Quatermass
Date: 10 May 07 - 01:35 PM

now where were we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Toobusybee
Date: 10 May 07 - 09:05 AM

Interesting? Thread, kept me amused in my lunch break

Just a couple of notes for Countess Richard - The Stone of Destiny (Stone of Scone) is now in Edinburgh Castle, has been since c1996

Telling John B (the assumed) Canadian poster to get out of the discussion if he knew nothing about the diggers - Why, because a person is not English (Scots, Irish, Welsh) assume that they don't know about this part of English (British)history? I studied history for my degree, including the English Civil War and the Century of Revolution and all my tutors were from the USA, and very good they were too.

Also (I know I'm on dodgy ground here)I would think that if Flora MacDonald's husband supported the Royalist cause in Scotland, just because it failed would not make him a republican, and therefore he'd rather have monarchist rule in America (just a thought). Don't forget, Cromwell never wanted to get rid of the monarchy, just Charles 1st.

Got to get back to work now.

Toobusybee


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 07 - 03:01 AM

Well, I can't say I see much music in this thread, now that I look at it. Plenty of vitriol, as stated in at least one message above, but sometimes I stink some vitriol can be healthy...

Below, you go.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:57 PM

Let this one die & bury it where Heed will never find it again!


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one)
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:28 PM

'last thing English music needed was to be hijacked by the far right.'

or the far left....


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:00 PM

To HEED - There's a shame - poor ol' hard done by England!!

Teeny Weeney cheeselumps.

P


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:00 PM

I only spoke for myself, Countess.
I stand by my earlier quote...
"For once, the Countess has nothing to apologize for."
Sincerely.
Jim


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:52 PM

So do I have 'serious ground' to make up too? Don't think so and if I 'offended' a few proto-fascists, so much the better. I asked for the thread to be pulled in the 2nd post. As it wasn't, I continued in it from the point of view that the last thing English music needed was to be hijacked by the far right.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:19 PM

Anonymous for my own safety: The threads, above the line, are reserved for musical topics. A guest usurped this field in order to promote some kind of protest march. Given the history of such marches being a cover for racially intolerant groups such as "The National Front", many of us were somewhat suspicious and made things pretty difficult for that individual.
I am encouraged by the fact that so many of us have no time for such groups and put their own reputations on the line.
I am extremely saddened that some were offended by my own submissions and know that I have some serious ground to make up because of it.
British politics is not for the faint hearted nor did this topic ever belong on the music threads.
The moderators are simply on the wrong side of the Atlantic to understand what a minefield this subject is although, I do think that they should have caught on as it evolved.
If you have any interest in folk music at all then I suggest you get a handle, keep it and join in.
I am curious however, as to how you found this particular thread and this is the only one you have contributed to.
There are many, many, worthwhile music threads to follow, without ever going back into the archives.
Good Morning All!
from the dull grey Highlands.
Jim


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:54 AM

Bellow the line is simply 'BS' - A non music topic. I wouldn't go into what the moderators do or do not do - There has been too much discussion of that already:-(

Out of interest I never got a response from the Justice for England campaign about their links to right wing sites and, having just checked, I see they have not been removed.

Speaks for itself don't you think?

Dave.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,anonymous for my own safety
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:15 AM

My goodness, do you not have moderators on this site?

I admit to being something of an ingenue when it comes to forums, chatrooms and the like, but never before have I seen such vitriol displayed alongside such thoughtfulness.

So far I only belong to one other forum, which is concerned with a TV programme. Normally, I would advertise it because it's a great site, but there are people on this thread I hope never to meet again and I don't want it ruined. My point is that on that other site are a number of moderators who (a) publicly warn flamers and ban them if they do not heed warnings, and (b) move posts and whole threads to more relevant places when appropriate. The result is a consistently high level of friendliness and intelligent comment, and a feeling of community.

I only discovered this site yesterday, while googling the Sweeps Festival, and I haven't yet managed to understand the structure of it, but if anyone can explain to me what below-the-line means in this context I would be grateful.

Thank you


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:00 PM

I don't think i misrepresented myself. Please view my original post. My problem was not understanding the conventions of the forums. I fully expected this subject to go "down south" due to content not title. I've apologised that for what it is worth. As for you only having my word for this, you are right. I've not seem much other media comment apart from this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_enl_1178020672/html/1.stm

Here are a few other that might give you a bit of an insite into the march.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lmiatoque/480565735/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lmiatoque/480580369/in/photostream/


And i'm not suprised about the way this converstaion has gone. others are having a similar experience.

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/04/problem-with-english-devolution.html

I've realised that this issue is much more complicated that a case of whether there is a legitimate sense of greviance on one hand, or whether those taking part are far right loons. I have this conversation to thank for that.

Now maybe this thread should be allowed to die a death. If i start another thread i'll make sure that i clarify my subject matter.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 May 07 - 11:24 AM

We only have Guest Heed's word for things and he already misrepresented himself with the title of this thread.
For once, the Countess has nothing to apologize for.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:22 AM

Don't be ridiculous 'George', I'm not going to 'apoligise' (nor even apologise) for flagging up the obvious threat of the nasty right latching on to anything they can that's 'English'. As most people here are now aware, this sort of campaign is backed by some vile characters who try to infiltrate anything they can for their own political ends. I still believe that here on a music forum is no place to allow ads for such an event. I am however impressed that so many have had their eyes opened to the dangers and will scrutinise the activities of rabidly undemocratic Tory tossers rather more carefully. In this sense it has served its purpose.

Now go and play with a dragon.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,George
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:58 AM

So, are you going to apoligise countess richard? Your fascist march didn't materialise.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Gulliver
Date: 01 May 07 - 09:18 PM

Swing low, sweet chariot...


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 May 07 - 05:24 PM

AND HOW WAS THE MUSIC?


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 01 May 07 - 11:30 AM

I went to the j of e march until after the speeches were made. Here are my observations:

- The march attracted about 150 - 200 people, I sensed the organisers were disappointed about the number of people who turned up.
- It was mainly good natured. There was lots of hissing and booing outside Downing Street. The police weren't overly concerned with this or the march in general.
- The slogans mainly concentrated on the issues like the Barnett formula, an English parliament. Or general vague assessments like "justice for England", "equal rights for England" etc.
- There were numerous groups of people there. After chatting with many and making observations. I would classify them as follows:
a) Some kind of libertarian anti-Europeans. I was handed a leaflet at one stage from someone arguing about low taxation, Europe's influence etc. So clearly they were using the march as a means of distributing other political info. These might have been from the Freedom Association.
b) The Civic Nationalists ( campaigning for an English parliament, dealing with the West Lothian question, England given the same choices as Scotland etc)
c) Those directly affected by the constitutional settlement. There were students complying about student fees, and at least one cancer patient.
d) An "English left". These see England as being better off out of an "imperialist union". I sensed there weren't many of them.
e) No overtly racist or far right groups. The only thing that concerned me was a bloke wearing an "Anglo-Saxon kith and kin" t-shirt. I asked him about it, and whether he was some kind of racist. He said he was pissed off with "celticness". That's all he said to me. There were one or two anti-Scottish comments on this march but were few in my opinion.
- The speeches to their credit stressed how it was for all the people of England, not for a race or ethnic group
- There were very few there who could not be classed as "white". I saw two people in and around the campaign who were from ethnic minorities. One was draped in the George Cross.
- Many people I asked had not heard of the Freedom Association or related organisations.
- Speaking to some members of The Campaign for an English Parliament, they said they were happy to be a part of the movement for the moment, but are watching it and see how it develops and what, if any, political direction it takes.
- Traditional party allegiance varied. There were some who used to be labour party members (like myself), though more would describe themselves as conservatives than anything else.
- Some people spoke of their frustration as having been tarred as being racist for going on the march.
- The response by the general public was generally positive, if a little bemused. Some horns were blared in support; other people were curious and asked what it was about. I saw one person in a coach gesticulate at us.
- At one stage I was walking with a member of the C.E.P who was in his 70's who had served in the navy. As the above mentioned "Anglo-Saxon kith and kin t-shirt" made an anti-Scottish remark, my companion turned to me and said the "the last thing we need is people being anti anything. It doesn't do us any favours and I saw far too much of that kind of thing in Palestine". Possibly the best comment I heard all day.
- I didn't hear a single rendition of Roots, thank god.
- On the whole I thought it positive and non-threatening and I'm glad the issues like the west Lothian question have been raised in England. Other may take a different view and have other observations. It will be interesting to see how this organisation develops.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 May 07 - 10:46 AM

I'll be leaving this thread, now, and won't be looking in again.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 01 May 07 - 08:21 AM

That must have made it awkward for Disraeli then!

Benjamin Disraeli although of Jewish extraction was a Member of the Church of England. But, Michael Howard's religion would have been no barrier either. It is only Catholics that are discimininated against both by The Cathloc Relief Act and the Act of Settlement. Indeed it will be OK for Princes William or Harry to marry anyone of any religion whatsoever EXCEPT a Catholoc and still keep their place in the succession.

I suspect the Catholic Relief Act, the Act of Settlement and the Royal Marriages Act might all be challenged under The Human Rights Act in due course. They are all features of the UK constitution that need tidying up. The "West Lothian Question" is perhaps not the largest problem, even if Justice for England think so.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 May 07 - 05:50 AM

I usually disagree with the countess on the subject of celebrating Englishness; I am of the Richard Bridge persuasion - babies and bathwater and all that. But I do sympathise very much with the countess' fear of extremism invading such initiatives, and I can understand why she wants to stay clear of them.

Celebration and separation are two very different things, and the problem is how to stop one short of the second. Take the old Yugoslavia - conceived by powers around a table rather than along ethinc lines, and in ignorance of the underlying issues, it took someone like Tito to make it viable. But viable it had become - until with Tito gone petty nationalism reared its head, and fed by the world's powers again (with Germany first in recognising Slovenia and Croatia, now, why did that not surprise me), they unravelled the whole jumper into its constituent threads, only much more crumpled and pitiful now, giving opportunity for atrocities like Srebrenica to take place.

I can imagine a similar scenario for the UK. When the Scottish Assembly was established, even as I was pleased for the Scots, I couldn't help seeing its necessity as a tacit admission of failure on the part of the country to manage all its constituents equitably. No Tito here, just the institution of monarchy (itself beginning to creak) to keep the thing together. How long will it take for the four nations to become truly separate, I wonder - and will they be better off for doing so (I have my doubts).

And yet... I like to see people celebrating their nationality, and their differences and their culture - enough to want to preserve them, but not to want to impose them or exclude others. Such a hard balance to maintain, but such a prize to be gained from its achievement!

Please, beware of balkanising the UK. So, for once, on this particular subject, I come down on the countess' side. This march is too tainted, this bathwater too dirty and there's a lot more than the baby in it...


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 May 07 - 03:49 AM

The point is that the Government is entirely capable of basing it's decisions on any kind of bias. Why does the law still exist?
As for your reasoning ... that would be a long, heated debate.
Now; Give us a song, will you?


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 May 07 - 03:05 AM

You have to remember how much the Catholic/CofE issue had divided the country to understand why such seemingly draconian measures came into being. The fanaticism of Mary Tudor didn't help, for a start. Later, the Catholicism of Charles I's French queen, Henrietta Maria, was hugely divisive. She was operating her own Catholic court in a notionally Protestant country historically divided by religion, and this was one of the (many) causes of the civil war. Her son James II was removed from his throne because he swung the country back into Catholicism after the Protestant court of his brother Charles II. It was only with the joint reign of William and Mary that some stability was introduced, and the "no Catholics on the throne" laws were intended to maintain that stability.

Catholicism wasn't just a religion: it represented Ireland, of course, but also Spain and France, both of whom were keen to rule over England. Legislating against Catholics governing the country effectively removed this threat.

I don't think it was bigotry as we understand that term today. I think there were some pretty understandable arguments which led to that situation evolving, in a very particular socio-political climate.

I should add that I speak as a convent school girl.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 07:02 PM

Because you ridiculed the idea that the establishment could be swayed by bigotry. At least, that's how I saw it.
You're a decent man, Jim. Let's not get caught up in the tangled logic of some radical or well meaning activist of whom we know nothing.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 06:55 PM

Jim Lad, why did you bring religion into the discussion? I merely responded to the racist statement that Scot could not be the PM of the UK.
I agree that this thread should be 'below the line' but it was headed 'protest songs'.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 06:37 PM

No wonder the Turks are insisting that the state should be secular. Me, I'm baptised Church of England, from a Catholic family (don't ask, I don't understand it either) who was eductated in an East End of London grammar school that was predominantley jewish. Is it any wonder I'm so mixed up!
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

Not so much as being Catholic would be. Take a look at the introduction to any old King James Bible if you have one.
Jews were/are not the enemy.
The whole point is: There are still laws in existence today, which allow unfair advantage to some. Protest if you want but those crying foul have more than a couple of aces up their sleeves.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM

That must have made it awkward for Disraeli then!
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM

Read This From Wikipedia:
          The Catholic Relief Act 1829 (10 Geo IV c.7) was passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom on 24 March 1829, and received the Royal Assent on 13 April. It was the culmination of the process of Catholic Emancipation in the United Kingdom, and in Ireland it repealed the last of the Penal Laws. Its passage followed a campaign on the issue by Irish lawyer and newly elected Member of Parliament Daniel O'Connell.

The act allowed Catholics to have a seat in parliament. This condition was crucial as Daniel O'Connell had won a seat in a by-election in County Clare but under British law he was forbidden (because of his religion) to take his seat in Westminster. Sir Robert Peel, who had for all of his career opposed emancipation (and had, in 1815, challenged O'Connell to a duel) was forced to conclude: "though emancipation was a great danger, civil strife was a greater danger." Fearing a revolution in Ireland, Peel drew up the Catholic Relief Bill and guided it through the House of Commons. To overcome the opposition of both the House of Lords and King George IV, the Duke of Wellington worked to ensure passage in the House of Lords, and threatened to resign as Prime Minister if the King did not give Royal Assent.

The Catholic Relief Act was a compromise, however, and effectively disenfranchised the Catholic peasants of Ireland, the so-called Forty Shilling Freeholders. The act raised fivefold the economic qualifications for voting. Starting in 1793, any man renting or owning land worth at least forty shillings (the equivalent of two Pounds Sterling), had been permitted to vote. Under the Catholic Relief Act, this was raised to ten pounds.[citation needed]

The act also makes it illegal for a Catholic to directly or indirectly advise the British Sovereign on appointments in the Church of England.[citation needed] There has not yet been a Catholic Prime Minister to date, since the act's passing. The Prime Minister usually advises the Sovereign on appointment of Bishops in the Church, although today, the Prime Minister's role is somewhat of a formality, channelling information from the Church authorities to the Sovereign. The current Prime Minister, Tony Blair, whilst married to a Catholic, is not one himself.

Now please take this thread somewhere else.
This is all about politics and nothing to do with music.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM

Jim McLean: Interesting that his wife is Catholic, he is not and he goes to Mass with her every Sunday. Has the law changed yet to allow Catholics to become Prime Minister? Let me know if it has and if so, when? Then we cant talk about racism/segregation.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:20 PM

personally of all the available candidates including Blair,Gordon Brown is the best of a bad bunch,I dont care if he doesnt smile at the cameras very much,he has done a reasonably good job as chancellor of the exchequer,and possibly will do a slightly better job than anybody else.,apart from me.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM

We already have a Scottish PM. Tony Blair was born in Scotland, had a Scottish father and was educated there. It's pure racism to suggest that only an Englishman could be head of a UK parliament.
What WOULD be unusual if a Scot had a Scottish constituency and was PM and wasn't allowed to vote on English matters.
I think this shows the need for an English parliament.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM

PS - I have written back. Keep you posted.

D.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 10:47 AM

I got an answer!

"Dear Dave

Thanks for your note, you are right, we are non-political and not
associated to anyone group. The Freedom Assoication requested a link to us and we linked with them as we have linked with many other groups and organisations regardless of views.

We reach out to all who live in England whatever their political views
accept groups from the Far Right and Far Left. We will consider removing them if you tell us how they are associated with the Far / Extreme Right.

I do hope that you will support our campaign as if you live in England
then what we are figthing for effects you just as much as me."


What do you think? Sounds reasonable to me but I am easily pleased...

:D


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM

You know, you only have to look at the national press at the moment to see them raising the same issues as the demo. The following articles from the independent,Sky News, and the Financial Times,(all respected media organisations) do this. Are they fascists?

Tartan takeover: The rise of the Scotocracy
quote: 'English nationalism is the dog that hasn't barked yet," Mr Stenhouse warned. "If we have this extraordinary situation where a Scot is prime minister, and the SNP is running Scotland, then I think the dog will start barking very loudly.'

Exploring The North South Divide
quote: "differences in public spending in Scotland and England mean a family could be thousands of pounds out of pocket just because the live the wrong side of the River Tweed ... The so-called Barnett formula is blamed for the inequality in public spending, and even its creator has called for it to be reformed. "

Union blues
"Victory for the SNP would also have a major impact on England – fuelling English nationalism and intensifying demands that the people who form the majority within the UK should also contemplate breaking away from their neighbours. ... the UK parliament gives the Scottish minority a far more generous financial settlement than it does to the English. Scottish university students pay no tuition fees. The elderly in Scotland get free long-term care. So south of the border the question is increasingly asked: what's in it for us?"


Do you still think all of us are fascists? Anti-unionists may be a more accurate description.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:15 AM

Clearly, this thread is compelling, and quite enlightening, though I agree it should go below the line. It's enlightening for me for sure. I had never heard of the Freedom Association, and do not like what they may stand for. However, I am a member of the Campaign For an Enlgish Parliament a single issue cause group. This aim is just, and i think the aims of the march are fair in that they are quite specific and are simply campaigning for England for to be given an equal status with other nations of Britain. It seems that the march may be attracting many different types of groups. Students in debt, cancer patients argry at the drugs they need only being available in scotland, those campaigning for an english palriament... and those from the freedom association! It looks like a broad church to me. I broadly believe in the aims of the march and believe that England as a nation is being treated unfairly constitutionally. The march organisers have stressed that they are trying to prevent those from the far right highjacking the march. Therefore why should i not go?

There is an emerging English Nationalist movement. This is inevitable, and it is growing quickly. One issue with it is how is it going to manifest itself? Right wing and racist, or consitutional, democratic and inclusive? The Freedom Association may be the former, the Campaign for an English Parliament the latter. I want to be in a position to make it an inclusive and positive movement. Therefore, I am going on that march. Perhaps i shall be in a better position to know more after the march and maybe i 'll come back here and let you know my conclusions.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:49 AM

Just dropped back in to see if you've all shaved your heads yet.
Come on guys. We got hijacked. How much more time do you want to give this guy?


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:04 AM

Melodeonboy, I found the front page of the Justice for England website made me feel uncomfortable, for the reasons I outlined above. The links from their site just reinforced that feeling. If Justice for England are organising this march, I'm very, very suspicious of their motivations.

It's kind of like the Countryside Alliance, theoretically an organisation that came together to protect the rural way of life, jobs, homes, highlight rural poverty etc, when everyone knows it was only ever about hunting. This lot strike me as similarly disingenuous.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

Are we not finding people guilty by association?

There seems to be general agreement on this thread that certain unsavoury elements have associated themselves with the Justice for England movement. That does not necessarily mean that every person that seeks to change the constitution in the way suggested is a fascist.

Some of the Muslim groups that joined the protests against the war in Iraq were somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. That didn't lead us to label all the other protesters fascists, nor did their presence appear to deter others from standing up for their beliefs.

And yes, this thread should be below the line.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:07 PM

"Yes, there ARE a lot of posts by me here. It's because I have to keep ON coming back and explaining that the only reason why I entered this thread was to say that ads from fascists are not acceptable on a music forum."

ads from ANY extremists, political or otherwise, are not acceptable on a music forum.

Noe Be Thankful


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:04 PM

Incidentaly - I am going to write to the justice for England campaign to ask for the removal of the link to the freedom association to see if they realy mean the bit about not wanting to have anything to do with right wing organisations. I will pst any reply here.

On to other English organisations. There were 2 I viewed. I will not post the links - you can find them for yourselves! The English democratic party has a site that is so unbelievably poor that I did not even get as far as investigation their politics. It was an afront to the senses! The English Democrats however have a very slick site and, as far as I can see, no aparant right wing ties. I guess there is an indirect link because they are also publicising the march being discussed above but aside from that are they pretty harmless? Anyone any views?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM

Well y'know I thought it was all so obvious and was a little puzzled that some of you took a while to catch on and initially opposed me. A 'Justice For England' campaign may seem initially a good idea, given that there are constitutional issues that need to be addressed, though I fail to see how discrepancies in funding would necessarily be equalised, as such matters are decided regionally according to perceived need.

And disparate regionalism (cf Balkanisation) always attracts extremist hangers-on hiding behind a seemingly democratic front. As Ruth Archer said, 'these are the insidious tactics used by the far right to make their politics appear more acceptable'. Just a little reading between the lines is required, though not a lot. Hey ho, didn't think I ought to have spelled it out any more. Though on second thoughts, had there been rather more 'shouting' in the 1930s, Messrs Hitler and Mussolini might not have got to where they did . . .

A chilling thought.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

I apologise as well, countess. The more I look at the freedom association the less I like them - Pity that such a good idea as trying to gain some enthusiasm for English pride has been cuckolded by such dodgy bedfellows.

I do still maintain that the justice for England campain is a good idea. Remove a couple of the links and their site is fine. If your objections are just to the extemist hangers on I agree with you entirely.

Thanks for pointing out what was not so obvious and letting us know why you reacted like you did. It may be better in the future if you were to explain before shouting but I guess the difference in the way we work is what makes the world such and interesting place:-)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:17 AM

there is nothing wrong with being proud to be English. There is nothing wrong with trying to enthuse other English people about their culture and traditions. But all this "Our way of life is threatened" stuff scares me. It's the politics of seige and paranoia, and a completely different kettle of fish to the notion of supporting English culture in positive, non-confrontational ways.

That is where I am too.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:06 AM

Clearly the exception that proves the rule, Dick!

;0)


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:47 AM

wellthis must be afirst.I agree with Ruth Archer.


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Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:07 AM

Oh dear.

Having finally looked at the Justice for England website, I find it makes for uncomfortable reading.

I repeat my earlier assertion: supporting Englishness does not mean having to set it up in opposition to other cultures. This whole notion that the English are somehow oppressed by multiculturalism and Scottish and Welsh nationalism, that their rights are being eroded, is not only ridiculous, but it's also the thin end of the wedge. I'm sorry, but these are the insidious tactics used by the far right to make their politics appear more acceptable.

No, there is nothing wrong with being proud to be English. There is nothing wrong with trying to enthuse other English people about their culture and traditions. But all this "Our way of life is threatened" stuff scares me. It's the politics of seige and paranoia, and a completely different kettle of fish to the notion of supporting English culture in positive, non-confrontational ways.


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