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Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO)
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Subject: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: The Shambles Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:35 AM The old one CLICK HERE was getting a little hard to load. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: The Shambles Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:44 AM This has also some good points on the subject Xenaphobia |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: The Shambles Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:48 AM And here Song for Kosavo. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: The Shambles Date: 18 Apr 99 - 04:49 PM I suppose I want to keep this one going as I don't feel quite so alone and helpless if I can read how the other people here, who's views I have come to value and respect, are struggling to make sense of it too. It seems the least we can do is to continue to discuss this and think of those that are suffering. NATO and the media seem to be falling in to the old trap of trying to get and keep our attention by using statistics. The scale of the misery is certainly enormous but we get so easily tired of figures demonstrating this. The most effective way of getting the full horror across, as we have discovered from the past attempts to destroy whole races of people, is to show and listen to individual eyewitness accounts, from those who have seen their loved ones killed before them. The scenes of the lost children in this conflict are very effective and moving because they are dressed and look pretty close to our own. They could so easily be our sons daughters, brothers and sisters. It makes it very difficult to label and forget them. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 18 Apr 99 - 07:37 PM Shambles, I am with you. Lately I've been waking up at night around 3 am, unable to get back to sleep, for various reasons, most of them personal. Every night lately I find myself holding the images of Kosovo children- of whatever ethnic persuasion- in my heart and mind, willing them peace and the kind of security that is necessary to grow up whole and well. I am as confused as most of us and feel there is no right answer to the awful, complex problem- but to hope, pray, meditate, or whatever your method, and put our minds towards peace. Allison |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Apr 99 - 08:51 PM Thanks for starting this up again Shambles (some will not be thankful) I'm not sure why it makes this whole tragedy just a tiny bit easier for me to deal with, but it does. Perhaps it would help if I stopped reading the papers or watching sound-bites on TV. Wish I had something to contribute on the situation itself, but words fail me. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Pete M Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:24 PM Like Rick I hope this thread continues, so many seem to die when Part 2 is started. One more thing to worry about, which I don't think has been covered before, is what happens to Europe if NATO "fails"? I don't mean with regards to the situation in Kosovo per se, but if it is seen that Europe cannot act in concert to police itself, what hope does that give us? Although the means taken by NATO may be qestionable from the point of view of efficacy, and although I still believe that military action could and should have been avoided, surely any hope for a continuing peace in Europe must include the resolve to take collective action against States who's behaviour is immoral or unethical with respect to the cultural norms of the greater collective? Any attempt to impose an external will on a sovereign state's internal behaviour is decried by some as illegal in terms of the UN charter, but what I think is clear from all those who contributed to part 1, is a concern for doing what is right morally, not necessarily what is "legal". Clinton and his clone Blair, are not my idea of good leaders, but until proven otherwise I will grant that they sincerely believe that the action they are taking is in the long term best interests of Kosovo and Europe. What does worry me even more is that in particular Clinton's resolve will not outlast the arrival back in the US of the first plane load of body bags, and we will be left with the mess and no viable means of cleaning it up. Then we really will need to worry. In the meantime, knowing that there are others who are prepared to spend the time to understand the situation, and to discuss it, certainly helps me. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:26 PM Pete, your last sentence is what I was trying to say. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: DocJohn Date: 18 Apr 99 - 10:44 PM I've lurked here at the cafe for a while and now step out of the shadows. I think that we, those outside Yugoslavia, must do something to stop genocide. But I have several concerns and questions. First, how does destroying the infrastructure of the area help the displaced Kosovars? Winter will be hard for everyone in the area now that transportation and fuel have been destroyed. And how does destroying bridges help them? Now those who need to leave will have an even harder time. Although I hesitate to ask questions for which I have no answer, I really don't have a better answer than what is being done. I just think we need to look ahead to winter to try to avoid seeing all those children freeze to death. The other thing is this: There probably are very few nationalities that are innocent. This entire affair, and the outrage we express, reminds me of our native Americans and the lives they still lead secondary to our country's policy of extermination. While we must do what we can, every thing in our power, to stop the atrocities, we also need to remember the blood shed in our own house and those families amongst us that paid the price. What a terribnle tragedy. I can't imagine what is going on there to make people do this to other humans. I just can't imagine and seeing this thread helps me also John |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:44 AM I think they should put us all on the news shows; this is such an incredible group of people, it seems, as I said in another thread, a microcosm of what the world could be, with a sincere sharing of emotions, ideas, questions, fears, hopes, and actions. Allison, thank you for reminding us to visualize and ask for Peace; it is the only way I can feel useful in the face of this tragedy. The only way to keep my emotions and empathy from running rampant through my sensitive heart is to read these threads and KNOW there are so many good people in the world, like us, who feel the same, hear the same clarion call to make things better, who are so sincere in those desires, yet are not afraid to share their vulnerability in such a wonderful community as the Mudcat. How extraordinary, esp. since the majority are men, who have been much repressed in the patriarchal Picean Age, regarding the expression of their emotions. But then, of course, the Music is what unites us, so it really is not surprising that most all of the Mudcateers are so willing to bare their souls. DocJohn, glad you joined us, but lurking is okay, too! I agree with Pete M. in every way. I do feel Clinton is sincere in his convictions about this. As to his resolve, he has such an almost pathological need to please everyone that he may just find a way to explain the body bags and still keep up the aggression, either that or he will fold. Since he doesn't have much to lose (what else can they do to him?!) I don't know if he will cave in, except for how that would harm Al Gore's chances or that of any other Demo. It might sound a little cold, but in the Big Picture, humankind is such a tiny blip on the screen of this planet's life; I know the planet will go on without us, juts as it continued wihtout the dinos, etc. BUT, the other part of me, full of compassion and conviction, says that as long as we are here, we have an obligation to strive for an equitable way of life for all her inhabitants, two-legged, winged, four-legged, gilled, and otherwise. To that end, I give thanks daily that like a blanket of silent and pristine snow (without the physical cold!), Peace reigns in the regions of conflict and elsewhere throughout our planet. My biggest question, which usually comes up whenever any conflict arises: Why, oh why, does it always come down to religion? Jesus the Christ, Buddha, Allah, the Great Spirit, whatever....none of them preached the hatred and killing which has been perpetrated in their names for so long. The Picean Age was patriarchal. The Aquarian Age, which as you all know started in the sixties,is supposed to be about mutual cooperation, a balancing between all peoples, both genders, to bring about a more reasonable and enlightened existence. So, maybe we are watching the old age going out kicking and screaming; its death throes,if you will. Will humankind ever learn to live and let live, rather than ala James Bond, "Live & Let Die"? katlaughing
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Steve Parkes Date: 19 Apr 99 - 03:55 AM Somebody quoted George Orwell the other day in the Guradian newspaper as saying you don't often get a choice between good and evil, just between evils. Whatever is done - including doing nothing - about the ethnic cleansing, it's going to be evil; the question is, what is the least evil? I don't believe it's to do nothing. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Tucker Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:42 AM I had an interesting dream. The communist block re-emerged joined with Red China and all the third world countries including Serbia. They ordered us to vacate West Virginia ( Except for Jay Rockerfeller and Senator Byrd)and to relocate all the Albanians there, calling it new Albania. The displaced West Virginians were then mass exodused to Kentucky......any one reckon some of these folks might be angry for quite some time??????? |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: hank Date: 19 Apr 99 - 08:56 AM You hit the nail on the head Kat. It comes down to religions, and none of them stand for the violence we are seeing! |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:16 PM Technical question here, guys. I'm seeing two major types of refugee relief going on. First, there's monetary donations to the usual suspects...offhand I can think of AFSC, Feed The Children, and the Red Cross, but I know there are a ton more groups in Macedonia right now. I have some adresses if anyone wants them. Anyway, a lot of people are also asking for in-kind donations of clothing, bandages, soap, candles, etc. I guess my question is which is more effecient. I don't know how stuff works on this scale...does it save people time when we make up kits at home, or not? And what kinds of neccesities are actually worth shipping (e.g. bottled water probably isn't.) I'm looking for any kind of information here. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:09 PM I've stayed away from these threads on the warfare, because I just don't have an answer. As a pacifist, this kind of situation makes me question my pacifist ideals. The claims of genocide appear to be truthful, although I find it hard to understand how such a thing can be done by good people like the Serbians I've encountered in my lifetime. It would seem to me that the combined powers of NATO should be able to simply use economic power to force any nation to do whatever should be done - but I guess economic pressures don't work quite that simply. Since that hasn't worked, it would seem we should be able to use our sophisticated weapons to wipe out only the military targets of Serbia - but that isn't working, either. It seems that there aren't any simple answers, and that we'll just have to do our best to blunder to a solution. I also have a hard time believing in monsters, but maybe they really do exist. Is Saddam Hussein a truly evil monster - or is the monster just a creation of propaganda? What about Slobodan Milosevic - monster, or propaganda? What rationale do the Serbians have? They seem to think they're right in all of this - why? If Milosevic is truly a tyrant, why do the good people of Serbia allow him to continue? I wish I understood. I wish I had answers. All I know is, I believe in peace. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: LEJ Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:13 PM Here are some links related to the fighting in Kosovo www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/kosovo_hp.html This is US govt State Dept updates www.nato.int Nato website www.gov.yu Republic of Yugoslavia www.serbia-info.com Serbian Province website web.eunet.ch/government/ABAZA.html Republic of Kosovo site www.zik.com Kosovo Liberation Army site news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/specialreport/1998/kosovo/ BBC's guide to the Crisis news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/natointeract.html This has threads for opinions and responses
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Cara Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:49 PM I've been thinking a lot about the propaganda question that Joe addressed and its effect on the Kosovo nightmare. I, too, have a hard time believing that any people let this happen in their country, to their fellow countrymen. But, I am an American, raised and indoctrinated in the dream of equality and brotherhood (if not the actuality of it). But from what I understand, the Milosevic regime has squeezed that country off from the rest of the world to such an extent that the Serbs aren't making decisions based on the same information that we have. How do your thoughts develop in a vaccuum, or with only one viewpoint as a guide? Would it be easier to hide your head and not look too hard at the ugliness around you? I'd like to think that I would stand up on the side of justice and humanity, assuming that I knew what side that was or had a framework for figuring it out, but what if speaking/acting out jeopardized my family? When I ask myself honestly what I would do, the answer is that I just don't know. I've done work for social justice groups, taken unpopular positions, protested in the face of jeers and hate, but no bullets were headed my way, or my family's. Are Milosevic and Hussein monsters? We think so, we have to think so, and the information that we hear about them is certainly supportive of that stance. Milosevic wants a Greater Serbia, and he's willing to do anything to get it. Our forefathers here in the U.S. believed in manifest destiny, westward expansion all the way to the coast, and they stopped at nothing to achieve it. The 'Trail of Tears' is a pretty good example of ethnic cleansing if you ask me, and while the popular mindset now is that the Native Americans were treated poorly, I don't recall hearing about the American public protesting at the time. I'd like to think that I would have led the fight to stop that genocide but would I have? I can't know now. And has anyone seen the statistics on the effect of U.S. sanctions on Iraq? Saddam is still living large, but hundreds of thousands of children under the age of five are dying, not to mention all the other Iraqis affected. Does that make me feel good? Hell no, but neither does the idea of Saddam being left to his own devices, or of massive troop deployment to Iraq, or any other possible solution to that problem. Please believe that I am not defending inaction in the face of wrong. I believe the old "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" adage. But I think here in the U.S, we have to keep in mind perspective, and I mean everyone's perspective. I think Milosevic is monstrous, and the people who let hiom lead them are partly to blame for his actions, but I read that part of the reason he stepped up his offensive in Kosovo was to distract his people from a series of pretty big democracy uprisings that threatened his regime. Now, support for him is more uniform, because war is a great unifying force. People under extreme duress act differently than they otherwise would--how can you get it together to overthrow a tyrant when you can't leave your house for fear of bombs falling on your head? And the more we bomb them, the more duress, but we can't leave them alone to act agsinst the ethnic Albanians... So even though I have more to say, I'll wrap up with this: I don't know who should get the blame for this mess, but these mistakes were made by human beings subject to the same forces and pressures as you and I. I wouldn't have Milosevic in my house, and I would love to see him deposed, but he didn't get there by himself. There are larger questions posed by this conflict, about the human condition, and access to information, and people in glass houses throwing stones. And this is a big rambling mess of an argument and if you got through it congratulations. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:18 PM Cara, a good rambling at that and not hard to reach the end, just wish it was more! I have some of the same thoguhts and questions. Joe, as soon ask how could it have happened in Germany leading up to and during WWII. The horror of it keeps us from wanting to believe such things can and do still happen in our world, with or without our knowledge, with or without the complicity of the citizens of whatever country. Hey! I AM NOT picking on you, today!***BIG GRIN*** katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:48 PM I do have some feeling of how things can happen in a country without the citizens knowing it. I lived in West Berlin for two years, 1972-73, but I really don't think I knew what was going on in the city. We didn't have much money and my ex didn't speak German, so we didn't watch television or listen to the radio, or read Berlin newspapers. I talked with Berliners all the time, but the conversations were usually pretty shallow. The only local paper I read was Neues Deutschland, and that was from East Berlin and had no thought-provoking news in it at all. We read the Stars and Stripes, a pretty good newspaper published by the U.S. military - but we had no source of local news from West Berlin. We would occasionally see the Wall, but not often enough to think very much about it. Same thing with the tanks that would rumble through the city - we didn't see them very often, but we saw them often enough that we didn't even think of them any more. We had a wonderful time living there, but there was much we didn't learn. I suppose the same could be true for the people of Serbia - or of the United States. It's pretty easy not to know what's going on. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 20 Apr 99 - 10:56 AM By way of an instructional contrast to these threads, take a look at this. I do spy many very, very frightened people herein. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Pete M Date: 20 Apr 99 - 04:34 PM Cara, I found your contribution very clear and easy to read and understand.
On the question of propaganda, we all believe what we want to believe. The US public want to believe they are the good guys just the same as the Albanians, the Serbs, Catholics , Protestants etc. etc. When you say "... I, too, have a hard time believing that any people let this happen in their country, to their fellow countrymen." You are looking at the situation from an external perspective. (also a caring and rational viewpoint - but that's not the point). To both the Serbs
You ask how you can develop a balanced viewpoint when you have only one viewpoint as a guide and suggest that "..it be easier to hide your head and not look too hard at the ugliness around you?" Unfortunately this is just what the majority want to do, not least in the USA. You only have to consider the number of people who see taxes as an imposition rather than a responsibility and who think anyone unemployed is idle shiftless and have only themselves to blame.
However the one thing which I think is the most dangerous facet of propaganda is the demonisation of other people and their leaders. Civil wars are for some reason; perhaps because they are fought in the main by civilians rather than the professional military; always vicious and bloody with atrocities on both sides, but the portrayal by the Western media, of Milosevic and the Serbs as monsters risks making the conflict essentially intra special which is exactly the cause of the problem in the first place and which we are ostensibly trying to stop. Of course it is easier for western sensibilities to rationalise military action if we are attacking a "monster". Further, the demonisation of leaders has two nugatory effects. It makes dealing with them, as we inevitably have to if we wish to avoid or minimise violence, almost impossible; and perhaps more importantly, it hides from us the fact that our leaders, our neighbours and even ourselves are no different. Like you, I like to think that I have a reasonable record of standing up and being counted, and being abused for doing so, for justice and humanity; but at the end of the day, would I act any differently? I like to think so, but maybe not.
In the first of this years Reith lectures Prof. Giddens postulated that the spread of factionalism, nationalism and the resurgence of interest in ethnic groupings is a reaction to the globalisation of the worlds social, political and-economic systems. If he is correct, then this kind of conflict may become more frequent, and it is not inconceivable that it could occur within the USA. What ever happens, there is no easy answer, and I believe that all NATO members can do as a community is to take a morally sound position, and to me that is to stop the conflict in Kosovo. It also seems to me that the only feasible way of achieving this is to stand in the middle. It will not make us popular, it will of itself solve nothing in the long term, but one thing is sure, there is more chance of the sides talking to each other when they are throwing insults than when they are throwing bullets.
Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:02 AM I've just had a sobering experience on the way to work. Passing a line of traffic on the A5, I noticed a foreign numberplate on my left - it was Ford Maverick with Belgrade numberplates. I know the Yugoslavians are just like us - in my head, that is. But I've only just realised that with my heart. This whole business is becoming very difficult to accept. Sorry guys, I've always been a bit slow on the uptake. I just wanted to share my general spooked-out-ness... |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: katlaughing Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:40 AM I know what you mean, Dai. My friend from the college here emailed me this week with a request of did I know anyine who wouldbe willing to provide a free room to a college student for the summer. He is a Yugoslavian Serb, who couldn't get out of the country until this Feb.; is almost 7 ft. tall, a basteketball player and studying to be a dr. Ltd. English, but getting better and very poor. Kind of puts a different light on things when we are touched in a even semi-personal way. She said he is a very serious and good student. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Sam Pirt Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:42 AM Yes I am scared I don't know exactly whats going over there but I have a big feeling its not to good. I have done my bit and given some money and food stuffs to help. Bye, Sam |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Jon W. Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:23 AM The US Senate is now debating a measure to authorize ground troops - even though the President has not called for them and has insisted all along they won't be used. Makes me wonder if he was so anti-war when he was in school that he refused to even study military history. The only time air power alone was decisive in a war was when we (the US) dropped the big ones on Japan. I certainly hope that things won't get that bad. But I have a hard time seeing the Russians restraining themselves from supporting the Serbs militarily if we escalate much further than we are now. And I have a hard time seeing us making the situation any better for the Kosovar Albanians without escalation. As if the Kosovo crisis weren't bad enough, the shootings in Salt Lake City, Utah last week and the tragic massacre in Littleton, Colorado yesterday have certainly rattled a lot of people in my part of the world. I'm going to post a song in a new thread. It's titled "We're Up Against It Now" and although the main subject of the song is a much different type of crisis, the first verse and chorus are still very relevant today. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: katlaughing Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:30 AM I posted this elsewhere and then realized I should have put it here. I just heard on NPR that Congress wants to fund the buildup for the Yugoslavia campaign by using Social Security surpluses?!! What surpluses???? They've been telling us for years that SS is going bust and will have no funds left in a few years. Are these people really supposed to be leaders? kat |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Penny Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:40 AM The BBC reported this morning that it is not possible to drop food etc. to the refugees in the mountains because it would interfere with the military campaign. I make no comment. Words fail me. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: The Shambles Date: 21 Apr 99 - 03:13 PM I remember that during the Falkland's War, they told us that it was impossible to even see still photographs until a week after the event. This due to technical dificulties. Shortly after the end of the conflict, Noel Edmonds introduced a live TV programme from the Falklands, for the troops families at Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Mo Date: 21 Apr 99 - 08:40 PM Okay, here's my tuppence worth - one of the overriding feelings about WWII that we in the UK now feel, knowing more of the facts, is one of guilt - that our government didn't do more, and do it sooner. If Hitler had beeen challenged earlier, things may have taken a different course. Also - old saying: "Evil happens when good men do nothing". We have to do this, sometimes the price has to be paid for the good of all. Mo |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Pete M Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:15 PM I don't think your exception holds Jon W, data recently released by the US Government confirms that the decision to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a purely political decision by the President of the US, against the advice of his advisors, rather than a military one, and that their detonation had minimal impact on the Japanese decision to surrender. As you say, the only way we can possibly do any good here is to deploy ground troops. It seems to me that in seeking to avoid this, Clinton is repeating his earlier claimed behaviour of "smoking but not inhaling"; you cannot fight a war without casualties no matter how much he wishes otherwise. I still do not believe that Milosevic is another Hitler, but I do I think the Balkans and much of Europe would become inherently unstable politically if the concept of "ethnically pure" nations was allowed to take hold. Tito held a multicultural Yugoslavia together for forty years by economic means, we in NATO need to repeat this process. What in my view is potentially disastrous is to perceive this as a "Serbian" problem, its roots are economic and social and this process can and will be repeated elsewhere if NATO fails to control and remedy the situation. That is the raison d'etre of NATO: to protect Europe, in this case from an internal threat. To do so we need to deploy not only troops but economic aid designed to help the area rather than the industries of the donor country. There is no point in hand wringing over what we could have done in the past, we chose not to act for our own selfish reasons, now we will have to pay the piper in blood before we get another chance. Although military action never solved any problem, it is sometimes a necessary precursor to an effective political solution. The longer we delay effective action the harder the task becomes both militarily and politically. An increasingly worried and despondent Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone as scared? Part 2 (KOSOVO) From: Tucker Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:48 AM Here here Pete M. I agree |
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