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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Stevebury Date: 26 May 20 - 12:21 PM I happened on this thread, while browsing Mudcat. The June 14, 2002, entry mentions the 'Gypsy Davy' sung by 'Mrs. Charles Woodbury' for Helen Harness Flanders in 1948, and published in 'Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England'. Marion Benjamin Woodbury was my grandmother, and her father, Charles H. Benjamin, learned the song in the lumber camps north of his childhood home of Patten, Maine, around the 1860's and 1870's. Charles H. Benjamin went on to become a professor of engineering at Case, and then Dean of Engineering at Perdue. I have a copy of 'Gypsy Davy' as typed by grandmother, with her transcription of the tune. The Flanders recordings are now available online. -- Steve Woodbury |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Phillip Date: 25 May 20 - 05:41 AM Whatever the status of this song as a folksong or not, it's interesting to compare it to songs we do accept as such. I have always thought it more a derivative of John of Hazelgreen than The Gypsy Laddie, or maybe The Jolly Beggar. Having just read this old thread I thihnk it's a melange of all three and the predominant link we make to The Gypsy Laddie family is based solely on the presence of the word gypsy in it. Had it been called The Yodelling Beggar we would have been barking up other trees all these years. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: cnd Date: 25 May 20 - 12:51 AM Here's a thread dedicated to the song titled, Clayton Boone: https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=117008 - doesn't seem to have generated much in the way of concrete results though. Richie's Bluegrass Messengers site (http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/clayton-boone--jackson-wy-1961-rec.aspx) appears to have some solid information in its notes about the song, though |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 20 - 12:00 AM Anybody have more on the New Mexico version that Airymouse posted above? |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Edthefolkie Date: 09 Feb 14 - 11:50 AM Leo Maguire's song seeped into Brit DNA via the Elton Hayes version, played frequently on "Children's Favourites". Must have been one of the first er, "folk songs" I ever heard. Elton also performed the campest version, rewritten by him for the Alan Ladd film The Black Knight. Famously, Alan Ladd's wife wouldn't let Bryan Forbes insert a scene where Mr Ladd stole a horse. She told Forbes "He steals a horse, we lose the Boy Scouts Association and the Daughters of the American Revolution, to say nothing of his fan club". What these splendid organisations made of THIS is anyone's guess! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=696tg5gX8_E |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Mar 13 - 06:55 PM Nice one, Rusty. Love it! |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Rusty Dobro Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:13 PM I think this may be the original version..... An old Range Rover came over the hill, Driven by the Gypsy Davy, It rattled and it clanged and it popped and it banged, And it frightened a little old lady. CH: Hardy-do, hardy-doo-da-day, Hardy-do, hardy-day, etc. He'd towed his caravan from County Kildare, And parked it near Campsea Ash, He'll tarmac your drive or cut down your trees, But he'll only take payment in cash. (CH:) A fair young maiden came over the lea, And Davy found her quite fetching, He showed her his home with its milk-churn of chrome, And his metaphorical etchings. (CH:) He promised her this and he promised her that, She promised him plenty of the other, But things went wrong like they do in folk songs, Now she's going to be a mother. (CH:) The next time that maiden came over the lea, Where was her lover so pure -o? He'd done a runner, and he spent the next summer On a building site in Truro. (CH:) So all young maidens, take a warning from me, And don't let him string you along, Don't give him a thing till you're wearing a ring, Or you'll end up in a folk song. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM Dick, This is a discussion forum. You are the first one to mention DEFINITION on this thread which contains some interesting discussion. Obviously 'folk song' has now got many differing meanings to different people. My perception of the OP's question is he is asking if the song was collected from oral tradition or was it purposely rewritten for Tin Pan Alley. I for one am happy that the question has been answered perfectly well. Dick, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but the impression I get from others on the thread is that you are on your own. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM Careful, Dick; you are in danger of rationlising the entire forum away if you don't watch it. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: The Sandman Date: 10 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM : Gypsy Rover a real folk song? NOBODY ON THIS FORUM HAS BEEN ABLE TO DEFINE A FOLK SONG, including steve gardham, So the sensible thing is to forget such idiotic fripperys , regard such a discussion as a waste of time, and either sing the song or forget about it |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Mr Happy Date: 10 Mar 13 - 02:45 PM The puzzling part for me is, what's a 'real folk song?' |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Mar 13 - 08:30 AM After all, Dick; if nobody cares about these things, what do you perceive this forum as being for, precisely? You obviously do care, being one of the most industrious contributors on a variety of topics. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:57 AM Dick 'who cares'. Obviously a lot of people do care, in answer to your question! |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: The Sandman Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM who cares, if you like the song sing it ,if you do not like it do not sing it. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Airymouse Date: 09 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM my 2 cents 1st penny: I'm an old timer saddled with long-abandoned rules of grammar. I was taught to use AS for affirmation and SO for negation. For example, A is AS good as B, but not SO good as C. The only place I know where this rule is honored is Black Jack Davy. In every version I've heard the second horse is always "not SO speedy". 2nd penny: There is an interesting western version, called Clayton Boone I don't remember it exactly, but it goes something like this
Along the Spanish line I was working for old Clayton Boone A man well past his prime Well he rides in and asks of me What's happened to my lady I says to him she's quit your range And runs with handsome Davy Go saddle for me the ??? drum With the coal-black mane and tail Point out to me them fresh-laid tracks And after them I'll trail I rode upon a saddle fine A saddle made of silver My bridle rein of beaten gold Not of your common leather I rode in to the midnight sun Till I seen the campfires burnin I heard the sweetest mandolin And the voice of Davy singin Come home with me your own sweet bed The sheets turned down so gaily Do not forget my silver and gold Do not forget your baby (I'll not come home .. etc.) Last night I slept with a mean ole man In a golden room so stately Tonight I'll sleep on hard cold ground By the warm side of my Davy. P.S. It seems that when the Child ballads get to my country they tend to be kinder to the womenfolk. Another example is Almeda Riddle's version of The 4 Marys versus the older versions, where Mary Hamilton is portrayed as wicked an unrepentant. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Mar 13 - 11:43 AM Howard, ALL WRONG I'M AFRAID If you read the whole of this thread you will see that no-one is claiming the origins of 'The Gypsy Laddie' Child 200, as Irish. Anyone who knows anything about ballads is aware the ballad originated in Scotland. In fact there are several historical events which could have led to the origin of this ballad in Scotland, apart from which it could also be totally fictitious. Your information from her ladyship, however, is still of interest, but would be more useful if some dates could be attached to her story. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Lighter Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM Well, the "tour guide" in this case was "her ladyship," whose family has lived there for centuries, and the story is so detailed ("14 men") as to be taken seriously, if not enthusiastically believed. That the family accepts the story as true is in itself significant to the history of the song. Thanks, Guest! Further research might tease out what (if anything) really happened. BTW, the chorus of Cox's 1880 version resembles that of "Sixteen Next Sunday." Too bad there's no tune given. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Manitas_at_home Date: 09 Mar 13 - 08:17 AM All wrong!? Maybe the origin story is wrong but that's just the word of a tour guide? But to say all of the above is wrong is just plain wrong itself. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 13 - 06:16 AM ALL WRONG I'M AFRAID...I am amazed at the lack of credible notations regarding the Gypsy Rover stories. I live in Cassilis Victoria Australia a carbon copy of Cassilis Scotland where,, thanks to the Kennedy's of Ayreshire and the West coast, birthplace of Poet Robert Burns we exist. A few years ago mu Wife and I in search of truth, travelled to Scotland and sought out the Kennedy lairds to fill in the many historic gaps of our small towns origins. Being able to quote a few lines of Burns in his epic poem "Holloween" we were able to have a guided tour of the kKennedy Estate. Her ladyship, Mother of the current Earl of Cassilis spoke openly and frankly about the Kennedys'd chequered history and in particular of the young man and his band of what I recall 14 men who were to occupy the Kennedy estate in a Gypsy fashion. The leader of which claimed his family were duped by the Kennedy's and robbed of there tradtional lands. He became very freindly with one of the Kennedy's daughters much to the disgust of the Lairds who plotted to end this relationship and bury forever this claim to his birthright. Her ladyship told us that the Gypsy Rover's men were attacked by the River Doon and killed except the leader who was courting the Kennedy'd Daughter, he was taken to the estate in Maybole Cassilis and hung from a Sycamore tree known as the Dule tree!? We were shown a suckering remnant this ancient tree and have photo's of it. I think the Irish version is pure fantasy although a place in Ireland named Casheal (Cassilis) does exsist. This is a very sad love story which led to the song the Whistling Gypsy Rover, a song that travelled to Australia in various forms. By studying the verses of the song it is clear to me that the origins are Scottish not Irish and despite the fact that the kennedy's would love to see the Irish claim the origins of this appalling miscarriage of justice and cover-up it cannot be so. My Wife and I would like to praise the Staff of the Kennedy's and in particular the Factor and the the Marquesses Mother for their frankness and wonderful hospitality. My sincere apologies for the typing and gramatical errors. Howard Reddish cassilis , Australia |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: PHJim Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:17 PM We used to sing this and I recall the last verse being: Last night I slept in a warm feather bed With my servants all around me. Tonight I'll sleep on the cold, hard ground In the arms of the Gypsy Davey. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: GUEST Date: 16 Mar 12 - 05:07 PM This can be categorized under FWIW - Google Books has a facsimile copy of the Cox book online, complete with the four American versions of the gypsy song that he had heard or collected himself, going back as early as 1880 - which is the oldest date I have found so far with a gypsy-themed song that includes a chorus of nonsense syllables like the Scarborough/Maguire "ah dee doo." Cox's Gypsy Songs Child#200 and its variants have no chorus beyond the repetition of the "gypsy-o" or "Davy-o" phrase at the end of each verse. Further - the University of Wisconsin Digital Collections has a .pdf of the musical setting for a version of "Gypsy Davy" collected in that state in 1946 and featuring, like the Scarborough version, a tune in a major key with a nonsense-syllable chorus. Frances Perry's 1946 "Gypsy Davy" I may be able to make a MIDI of this and if so will post it, but it is similar to the "Gypsy Davy (Widdermer Schauffler version)" already posted in Mudcat MIDIs here. Both the Perry and Schauffler tunes are very close to Maguire's, though not identical. What this says is that Maguire composed a little and cut and pasted quite a bit, however he may have heard the tune and picked up all the American tropes like crossing the plain/hills, singing sweetly, going down into the valley, and so on. Maguire may - MAY - have changed "lord" to "father" and made the gypsy a lord (though once again there seem to be wraggle taggle variants that include these), but in any event, like it or not and abomination or not (as above), "The Whistling Gypsy Rover" has a legitimate pedigree as a folk song that, while a variant of "The Wraggle Taggle Gypsies" is not a Tin-Pan-Alley type composition cut from whole cloth by Leo Maguire. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Jack Campin Date: 26 Jul 10 - 09:11 PM Maybe GUEST just read this: The Kirk Yetholm Gypsies by AV Tokely (1996, reprinted 2002) which I saw in the museum in Hawick. There is a website about them: The Yetholm Gypsies |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: GUEST,gypsy royal Date: 26 Jul 10 - 08:25 PM The song and the various derivations are based on Scottish Gypsy history. Johnnie Faa was the first of the gypsy royals in the Borders area of Scotland (Yetholm). This was an official title granted to him by the King of Scotland for services rendered (he is referred to in records as "most belovit of the King); they were staunch supporters of the Scottish crown against the English and were hung as criminals or transported in prison ships for being so. The character Meg Merilees by Walter Scott is based on the Wife of Johnnie Faa's grandson. Her name was Jean Gordon and she ended up being drowned for being a jacobite. People seem to be hung up on the line he is no gypsy ... but lord of these lands all over. Well the thing is, he was both: he was a gypsy but also lord of these lands. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM The various versions of 'The Gypsy Laddie' are very interesting and often beautiful songs - but the "ah-di-doo-dah" thing is an abomination!!! |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: MissouriMud Date: 24 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM As one who grew up with the Clancy Borthers version, I've always assumed, with no factual basis, that the "he is no gypsy ... but lord of these lands all over" line was not to be taken literally - but rather in the more poetic sense of "He is not a homeless scoundrel but is "king" of all his surroundings". It's interesting to read about the John Faa history which suggests that meaning may well have been intended to be literal. Fascinating and highly educational thread - thanks to all for the great research. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: GUEST,^&* Date: 24 Jun 10 - 09:12 AM Does the original text really have "vallies"? That's what I wrote down on transcription! There's an outside chance my mind was wandering at the time..... but I don't think so. Never struck me at the time. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:03 PM Thank you very much for finding this. So, it's clear now that Maguire's original text had the " he's a lord, not a gypsy" concept. I also note that the version in the Digital Tradition is very close to the original. Does the original text really have "vallies"? -Joe- |
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Subject: ADD Original: Whistling Gypsy (Leo Maguire) From: GUEST,^&* Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM Had a look at the original sheet music in the Irish Traditional Music Archive and this is how it shows:
So, lots of minor variations within a few years of publication. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: LadyJean Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:04 AM As a child, I read in a book of Irish fairy tales, the story of a princess given her choice of kings and choosing the King of the Tinkers, Jeremy Doone. As I remember he turned out to be an actual monarch with an actual castle. If you can find a copy of Songs of the Isenfiri, you can find the song a friend of mine wrote about the deserted husband. If you haven't heard Boiled In Lead's heavy metal version of Gypsy Rover, you really should. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM Yeah, it's interesting to see that in 1950, people weren't as "modern" as they had been in earlier generations. Leaving her husband for a mere gypsy? Shame! Scandal! -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: pavane Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:47 AM Obviously, writing at the time he did, if he wanted to get published, Maguire HAD to say Lord's daughter, presumably single, rather than describe adultery by the Lord's wife. There are clear echos of the lord or King disguised as a beggar, to give the story a "happy" ending. The traditional ending, with the gypsy, or 3 or 7 gypsies, often being hanged for stealing a lady, wasn't really suitable for his purposes. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM I was wondering if the Digital Tradition had the definitive version of "Gypsy Rover." Since it was published by Walton's, I looked in my six Walton's Irish songbooks for the song - and didn't find it. The closest I could come to a "definitive" version was in the Collected Reprints from Sing Out! (pink volume, page 283) [words that are different from the DT version are bold]: THE GYPSY ROVER (The Whistling Gypsy) (Leo Maguire) 1. The gypsy rover come over the hill, Bound through the valley so shady; He whistled and he sang 'til the green woods rang, And he won the heart of a lady. CHORUS: Ah-di-do, ah-di-do-da-day, Ah-di-do, ah-di-day-dee; He whistled and he sang 'til the green woods rang, And he won the heart of a lady. 2. She left her father's castle gate, She left her own true lover; She left her servants and her estate, To follow the gypsy rover. 3. Her father saddled his fastest steed Roamed the valley all over; Sought his daughter at great speed, And the whistling gypsy rover. 4. He came at last to a mansion fine, Down by the river Clayde; And there was music, and there was wine, For the gypsy and his lady. 5. "He's no gypsy, my father," said she, "My lord of free lands all over; And I shall stay till my dying day With my whistling gypsy rover." Words and music by Leo Maguire ©1951, Walton's Piano & Musical Instrument Galleries Notes: Many folkies mistakenly regard this as a traditional song. Though it is clearly based on the "Gypsy Davy" family of songs (Child Ballad #200), it is actually a modern composition by Irish songwriter Leo Maguire...Tommy Makem performs this on Newport Folk Festival 1960, vol. 1 (VRS) 9083) Child #200 Roud-1 @gypsy @courtship filename[ GYPSYRVR TUNE FILE: GYPSYRVR CLICK TO PLAY DC
Note that the Digital Tradition has it "Ah-de-do, ah-de-da-ay" in the second line of the chorus. At first, I thought this was a typographical error - but it's how the Seekers sing it. For comparison, here is the version in the Digital Tradition: GYPSY ROVER (Leo Maguire) 1. The gypsy rover came over the hill Down through the valley so shady, He whistled and he sang 'til the greenwoods rang, And he won the heart of a lady. Chorus: Ah-de-do, ah-de-do-da-day, Ah-de-do, ah-de-da-ay He whistled and he sang 'til the greenwoods rang, And he won the heart of a lady. 2. She left her father's castle gates She left her own fine lover She left her servants and her state To follow the gypsy rover. 3. Her father saddled up his fastest steed And roamed the valleys all over Sought his daughter at great speed And the whistling gypsy rover. 4. He came at last to a mansion fine, Down by the river Claydee And there was music and there was wine, For the gypsy and his lady. 5. "He is no gypsy, my father" she said "But lord of these lands all over, And I shall stay 'til my dying day With my whistling gypsy rover." Child #200 Roud-1 @gypsy @courtship filename[ GYPSYRVR TUNE FILE: GYPSYRVR CLICK TO PLAY DC My conclusion? Maybe there is no definitive version, but the Digital Tradition transcription is as good as any. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM That's an interesting question, and I don't think we've answered it fully - despite all the threads we've had on this song. As far as I can tell from what's been posted, "The Gypsy Rover" is a modern composition by Leo Maguire, and I believe somebody said the song was published in 1950. It is a reworked version of Child Ballad #200, titled Gypsy Davy, Blackjack Davy, Wraggle-Taggle Gypsies, and a dozen other names. In most of the versions of this song, the wife of a wealthy man runs off with a gypsy - not with a lord disguised as a gypsy. In "Gypsy Rover," the daughter of said father runs of with the Gypsy Rover, who turns out to be lord of "these lands all over," and not a gypsy. I don't know of other versions of this song that have a daughter and a lord disguised as a gypsy - I think that could have been Maguire's creation. We have another thread, titled Whistling Gypsy - prejudice?, which explores the question of whether Maguire's "not really a gypsy" idea is prejudiced against gypsies. I respect your grandmother's initiative in changing the lyrics, but I think that the "not really a gypsy" idea is part of the original Maguire composition. Now, in the the other (traditional) versions of Child #200, the gypsy is really a gypsy - but the lyrics are very different from "Gypsy Rover." So, can the ballad experts out there give a definitive answer on the roots of "Gypsy Rover"? - which parts of the song are traditional, and which are Maguire's invention? There are posts above that contend that Maguire's version came from a American versions of Gypsy Laddie (click), but those versions don't seem to have the "not really a gypsy" idea. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:30 AM Hi I found this thread by accident and wonder if anyone on it can help me. I'm trying to puzzle out the lyrics of the last verse. As my grandomther (a Scottish traveller) taught me it goes: He is a gypsy, my father, she said, And Lord of the free lands all over But it seems there is a version where she denies he is in fact, a gypsy which goes He's no gypsy, my father, she said, But a Lord of these lands all over Can anyone tell me where to find the history of these two versions (if such a thing exists) Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST,UK ukulele Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM My previous reply was in response to MBSGeorge who said that this had not been answered. In response to your assersion that this was drafted in for the sake of rhyme I would say that when discusing the development of folk songs through history anything is possible, but there are things that can be said for certain. The storyline of the ballad closely resembles A Gypsy Laddie which is given as a tradition of Renfrewshire in 1825 although it was in use much earlier than the date of the written reference. Renfrewshire being the geographic location of the mouth of the river Clyde, I find the reference to the river Claydee more compelling. The ballad minus the ah-de-doo-dah chorus,and with no reference at all to a specific river harks back to a much earlier date when gypsies were outlawed in Scotland, and indeed some were hanged. The tradition of handing songs down by word of mouth among people who could not read or write has no doubt lead to this particular song being re-written many many times. Still, it provides for interesting, if rather fruitless speculation. I have nothing but admiration for Leo Maguire who made himself some easy money in the days before hordes of copyright lawyers could decend on him. Incidentally what is the collective noun for copyright lawyers, I suggest 'A Shyste'. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:35 AM That's the usual suggestion, yes; see for example 'Stringsinger's' post of last September earlier on this page. There are other possibilities, of course, but it was probably just drafted in for the sake of the rhyme with 'lady' rather than in any specific attempt at localization. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST,U.K. ukulele Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:41 AM This may be heresy to all you people out there with Irish connections but here goes. It may be worth considering that the 'river Claydee' mentioned in the song may be the river Clyde a major river in Scotland, 'River Clyde' in the Gaelic language is Abhain Chluaidh. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: MBSGeorge Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:31 AM From: Warsaw Ed - PM Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM But where did "the river Claydee" in the Clancy version conme from? And where is it? This was never answered. Anyone know? Another version has it down as 'the river so shady' There are always loads of slight variations btween the song that has been sung and the version that gets written down. G x |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: MBSGeorge Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:29 AM From: Ian - PM Date: 27 Apr 99 - 02:59 PM There's also a Kipper Family version called "The Raggle Taggle Travellers" - a bit dated now, because it mentions "Morecambe and Wise" You could change it to 'Ant & Dec' They're a wee bit more up to date. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:07 AM No relationship at all, I'd say. However, Proinsias Ó Maonaigh translated Maguire's words into Irish and called the result 'An Spailpín Fánach' - that is perhaps what you are thinking of. See thread Whistling Gypsy - prejudice? for more details. JimK's grandmother's recollection of the song confirms that a form of this version of it was current in Ireland at least in the early years of the 20th century, so it may well be that Maguire didn't have to look too far from home for his raw material after all. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:09 PM What about its relationship to the Irish language song "An Spailpin Fanach"? I had always thoght, McGuire's version was a corrupted translation, no? fergus riv |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST,TJ Date: 30 Jan 09 - 01:29 PM Though they may share the same roots, the "Whistling Gypsy" or "Gypsy Rover" and "The Wraggle-Taggle Gypsies" seem to be very different songs. The latter, as I recall it, was done in a minor key, say Am, with a touch of melancholy and at a pace one might call a slow gallop. The others were done in a major key and with more of a leisurely lilt. Both (or all) were commonly performed during my early coffee house days in the 1950's. Until this thread appeared, I always saw them as unrelated. No doubt both have suffered the "arrangement disease." I actually preferred "The Wraggle-Taggle Gypsies" as a song to perform. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST,Guest JimK Date: 30 Jan 09 - 12:42 PM Close reading of the thread also suggests that this older-than-Maguire variant may indeed have originated in Ireland - Scarborough says as much in one story above that conflicts with her recollection of another source. The enormous popularity of the sentimental Maguire-based versions apparently contributes to the suspicion (and earnest desire on the part of some) that this is not a "real" folk song. One thing this thread makes clear is that there are published versions of a song from 1919, 1927, 1935, and 1937 that are virtually the same as the one Maguire copyrighted. Maguire just did what many others in the business did - took a traditional song, changed it around a bit, and claimed (in this case lucrative) copyright. It's no big deal - except for the now fashionable urban myth that Maguire wrote it. He didn't. My Galway-born grandmother recalled singing it as a girl, and she was born in 1891 - she did pretty much the Tommy Makem version of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:04 AM The anecdote is well known, and many of us remember the song very well from the 1950s; but if you read the rest of this discussion (which started nearly 10 years ago and has been periodically revived over the years) instead of just the thread title, you'll see that there is strong evidence that McGuire based his 'new' song very closely -both tune and text- on an existing form or forms already circulating in oral tradition (though in America rather than Ireland). The specifically happy ending seems to be his most significant contribution to the 'new' piece, which is really just a minor re-write as opposed to an original song. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST,MK Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:49 AM The Whistling Gypsy was written by Leo McGuire in Dublin about 1950 and first sung by Joe Lynch, the popular ballad singer from Cork. The song was written on a dare -according to McGuire himself - that he could write a popular Irish song that would not have a sad ending ! The song was very popular throughout the 1950s |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: Stringsinger Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:53 PM River Clyde? Actually I don't agree with what's been said about the "Whistlin' Gypsy" sung by Tommy Makem. I think it's a fine tune and people pick up on the chorus easily. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: Warsaw Ed Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM But where did "the river Claydee" in the Clancy version conme from? And where is it? This was never answered. Anyone know? |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:23 AM I am not a lawyer, but here's a bit of clarification. Making a recording from a song is a creative act, and so the recording falls under copyright. To play it back, broadcast it, or create other material based *on the recording* would require payment of a royalty or license fee. Whether or not the *song as recorded* is copyrightable is another question, depending on the nature and extent of the changes. A judge would refer to the 1914 case Cooper v. James [1]. In Cooper v. James, two men had independently republished the public-domain Sacred Harp songbook with their own newly-devised alto parts. One brought suit, arguing that to add a fourth part was his own creative idea and protected under copyright. The court found against him: "In patents we say that any improvement which a good mechanic could make is not the subject of a patent, so in music it may be said that anything which a fairly good musician can make, the same old tune being preserved, could not be the subject of a copyright." I gather that nowadays arranging gets more respect under the law. If your arrangement or adaptation substantially changes the experience of hearing the song, it may be creative enough to be copyrightable. But it's got to be meaty work -- as much as I think Eva Cassidy improved Somewhere Over the Rainbow when she recorded it, I don't think she wrote a new *song* in the process. And I don't think tweaking a couple of words or chords would do it either. Oh, and for what it's worth, US law does not allow chord progressions to be copyrighted by themselves -- only with a melody attached. Jazz musicians are safe. [1] http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/law/library/cases/case_cooperjames.html P.S.: Back on topic, anyone heard Doc and Richard Watson's recording of "Gypsy Davey" on Third Generation Blues? Any guess where they got that melody from? I note that they, too, have a moralizing verse at the end (two, actually): When the silks and the rings and the gold were gone, Old Davey would not tarry. He said, "You're not a gypsy girl, and you I cannot marry; You I cannot marry." As a beggar now, she's dressed in rags; In her heart she's still a lady. At night she'll cry herself to sleep, Thinking about her baby, True love and her baby. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:51 PM A bit of a hijack here-but the public domain thing has me curious about copyright and royalties. Can a public domain song be appropriated, some lyrics changed-maybe a diff chord/music line here and there put in-and copyrighted by the lyricist/music changer as "new" or his/hers to record and get royalties from? Figure someone around here must know about copyright laws (this would be U.S. BTW). -OR- can "arrangers" or "adapted by-ers" also get royalties? Just wonderin'. |
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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song From: Peace Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:58 AM "Even if a song is P[ublic] D[omain], there may be arrangements of the song still under copyright. You MUST work from a published copy of the item with a copyright date old enough to qualify the item for public domain status." From www.pdinfo.com/list/l.htm |
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