BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

I enjoyed the story about Norman, Don! ;-D First good laugh of the day, that was. I bet there have been a few people around with that sort of problem.

The thing about free will is....you have got to USE it effectively! Otherwise it's no good for anything. Deciding to wait for a sign is a decision, of course, but it's not a decision that leads in any useful direction or is likely to yield any useful result, generally speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

Harry was a Good Christian. He tithed, he gave to charities he found worthwhile, he supported missionary activity overseas, he went to Church twice on Sundays, read the Bible every night for an hour, and in short did everything he was supposed to do and more.

And he was very, very successful. A lovely home, several hundred million in the bank (all honestly earned), a great and loving family of good looking and intelligent kids, a wonderful wife.

And then...one day, his office phone rang. His house was on fire and it probably couldn't be saved.

He left immediately, of course. On the way, his cell phone rang. It was his lawyer -- his partner had stolen the company AND Harry's fortune. Harry was destitute. But he accepted it as God's will.

Screeching to a stop outside his driveway, he ran to his house but was grabbed by two cops. His house was a total loss and his family had been inside when the gas furnace exploded. They were all dead.

And then he remembered that he hadn't paid the insurance.

Devasted, Harry dropped to his knees in the mud that had been his front lawn and lamented, "Why, Oh Lord? I keep Your commandments, I follow the rules You have laid down. Why me?"

And a cloud formed and lightning shot out of it and a voice like thunder replied, "Because you piss Me off!"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:48 AM

what I found in todays Sunday comics

(Note...above mentioned cartoon does not 'prove' anything....it merely is an eloquent expression of one point of view. Or maybe two - hard to say.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:51 AM

Man, that is one heck of a weird looking comic. We don't have that one in any of the newspapers around here.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:57 AM

Well, the comics in the Washington Post are getting weirder every year! They hired a new comics editor a few years ago whose taste is 'interesting'.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:30 PM

Slag, I did feel your tongue in-between my "cheeks" -- Here is a quote from Amon Hennesey via Utah Phillips:

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what's right and wrong."

No, you are correct. The Ten Commandments are, in the main, just common sense too. I reserve the right to dislike authority figures when I see 'em going overboard/waterboard. ;-)



Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

Rather artless, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:29 PM

I think I would rather enjoy seeing some I know go overboard.

Out past the 100-fathom curve, for starters.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Hi George,

Of course I'm not accusing you of anything! If you happen to have a religious faith then fine - that is none of my business and I certainly don't begrudge you it. Neither, to my knowledge, have you ever tried to force any sort of belief on me (I think we've only been in the same room once - and we weren't even introduced!).
Trouble is the world seems to be full of religious fundamentalists who seem to want to thrust their particular beliefs down everyones' throats. On reflection I probably shouldn't have read Richard Dawkin's book, 'The God Delusion'. I suppose that book crystallised the uneasiness I've felt about (organised) religion since childhood. Why do we afford all these weird and (often not so) wonderful beliefs such respect? I've spoken in hushed tones in Anglican cathedrals, taken my shoes off in mosques in Yugoslavia and Turkey and taken off my hat in the precincts of Buddhist temples in Thailand. But I've done all these things out of respect for the local people - not out of respect for their beliefs. On the other hand why do they assume that their particular (unproven and unsubstantiated) beliefs should automatically demand respect?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:56 PM

Well, it is a normal thing to show respect for other people when you're in their house (figuratively speaking). It isn't their beliefs you are then showing respect for, necessarily, it's they themselves that you are showing respect for by not judging them on the basis of their beliefs and not interfering in the normal things that they are accustomed to doing in their own house...by according them their right to be whom they choose to be.

It's what you would want them to do if they were in your house (again, figuratively speaking).

Now, when fanatics and fundamentalists try to shove their religious beliefs down someone else's throat...well, then it bothers me just as much as it does you, I assure you!

I don't care what religion people belong to...or whether they have no religion at all...I just care about whether they are willing to live and let live and not force their own beliefs on everyone else. When they do that, they've crossed the line.

My feeling with Dawkins is that he's an anti-religious fundamentalist. He's got a big chip on his shoulder about the whole thing, and it causes him to see only the bad aspects of religion. As such, he's deeply prejudiced, in my opinion. Such people are troublesome, whether or not they are religious.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM

LH:

How much of his work have you read?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 07:38 PM

I've watched Dawkins debate on TV, and I have to say, I don't like his confrontational style much. He is an intelligent guy, but he 'hardens' his opposition in awkward ways.

It is strange to find myself agreeing with some of his basic points, but wishing he'd just SHUT UP at times.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

From an article by Damon Linker in The New Republic, regarding Dawkins and others:

Journalists have dubbed this combative style of challenging religious belief "the new atheism." To the extent that the appellation is meant to highlight the novelty of virulently anti-religious ideas finding a mass audience in the United States, it is certainly fitting. But, as a description of the style of unbelief itself, it demonstrates a striking lack of historical awareness. That's because "the new atheism" is not particularly new. It belongs to an intellectual genealogy stretching back hundreds of years, to a moment when atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others.

The entire article is here.

LH, as is so often the case in theses discussions, I find your observations throughout this thread to be spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM

If I tried to shove my beliefs down your throat you might well choke on them.

And rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 09:41 PM

>>Can I suggest that the 'Burden of proof' lies with either side..ie whoever is trying to prove or disprove has it!<<

No. The burden of proof is NEVER on the one who must prove a negative because it is impossible.

Such as "Prove you don't have weapons of mass destruction."

That alone should tell you why these little rules of debate must be followed meticulously.

Funny how you all forget that when it's not applied to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nick E
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 09:53 PM

Are there sons of god?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:25 PM

Yes, Nick. Every male being is a son of Life itself...therefore a son of God. Every female being is a daughter of Life itself...therefore a daughter of God. That's my take on it.

I don't think Jesus ever intended to be set apart from everyone else as the ONE and ONLY Son of God. I think that was an idea spread later by some of his followers, and by the churches they founded in his name. He wasn't there (in the physical) at that point to set people right about it, so they went ahead and arranged it the way they wanted it, for various reasons.

Just my opinion, okay? It's what seems most likely to me.

Amos, no, I haven't gotten around to reading Mr Dawkins yet. Why? His general premise (going by what I hear about him) just doesn't interest me enough to bother looking into it. There are a lot of other things I'm more likely to read before I get around to reading him. I mean, hell, I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager...and that was a long time ago. I think I've outgrown such crass and prejudicial attitudes, hopefully.

To quote what Janie quoted, "atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others".

I have no objection to the former attitude. Bill D exemplifies the former. I am very annoyed by the latter attitude...and it is what I refer to as aggressive fundamentalist atheism...as it is based not so much on a desire for truth as a desire to attack other people, discredit them, tear down their beliefs, and dominate them.

It is that same attack and dominate impulse that often poisons discussions on this forum...and it's a function of the warring ego, not of the dispassionate search for truth.

It's the desire to promote one's own identity at the expense of someone else's, for nothing other than gratification of one's urge to "win", to crush, to conquer, and be SEEN by everyone as having won...to symbolically destroy another person. It's warfare, and warfare has two objectives: murder and victory. (in this case, the "murder" being a psychological murder, not a physical murder)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:27 PM

Right on, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:54 PM

I suggest to you that he is far more serious than your soundbite implies, and he is a strong porponent of the sheer awe that comes with appreciating the facts of the world and the cosmos, which he would say far exceeds the awe that passes for religion in many instances. Further, he understands and discusses in detail the nature of the ordinary miracles that make up the world as it is and the evolution which brought it here in a most enlightening manner. He is a far cry from a mere decrier of all religions, even though he does get a bit heated about the toxic nature of some theisms, and your shorthand does him a serious disservice. I recommend "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The Selfish Gene" for starters.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:53 AM

The constituent elements of our physical beings have been in existence ever since existence (granting symmetry) and all indications are that those same elements will continue on until there is no more existence, if that ever happens. It is just for this short little time in this tiny little place that said elements are imbued with what we call consciousness or self awareness but what a miraculous thing that awareness is. Where did it come from? With out it would there be no witness that any of this existed at all ( even if it is a debatable subject)? That is one point of view. Behold the soul of Man.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:20 AM

I'm with Amos in terms of his opinion on Dawkins.

as for, "I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager..."

Yes, so did I and so, probably, did many people. What was particularly interesting about 'The God Delusion' is that it prompted me to re-visit that mindset and to find in it, on mature (maturer?) reflection concepts which cannot (and probably should not) be ignored.

Dawkins examines in detail many religious beliefs (particularly Bible based Christian beliefs) and finds in them many apparent absurdities and inconsistencies (not to mention the shocking inhumanity embodied in many passages in the Old Testament). He then goes on to ask, given the central role that religion demands for itself in many of our societies, and given that many religious people can only invoke 'blind faith' in justification for their beliefs when challenged, why should we afford those beliefs so much customary respect? Surely, an 'elephant in the room' question if there ever was one!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:07 AM

I think Dawkin's gets up peoples noses because he's like the little boy who pointed out the Emperor was in the all-together. I agree with Little Hawk his style is a little confrontational, but some people don't want to engage in robust debate of the style academics like Dawkin's and his ilk enjoy.

The ad hominem arguments of people of faith is often bewildering to people who rely on empirical evidence and reasoning to. The retort 'because I know it to be true' is seen as being superstition at best, self-delusional (as the excellent cartoon above says) at worst.

This subject is important because so many of those in charge of our lives claim some sort of divine influence on their lives and their decision making process. If you don't believe the same thing, then this can be alarming and the fact someone is using apparently supernatural means as a form of guidance is worrying to many people. Of course, those of a religious bent who take public office and then claim to hear the voice of God had better be careful - no-one likes a charlatan and those who claim the Decalogue as the foundation of their moral beliefs better stick to them (Bush of course saw 152 people executed when he was Governor of Texas, including mentally ill people - 'thou shalt not kill' means sod all to him obviously).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:53 AM

Hi shimrod, Like George, I have not and never will try to push my religious views, or lack of them, on anybody. You said that the burden of proof was with the theist. In response I said "the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory" with which you disagreed.

I don't really see how, in this circumstance, you can disagree. 'Guest, Ed' started the thread on the premise that there were no gods. He then exppected someone to prove him wrong without first providing any proof whatsoever of his theory. This is not how either scientific or logical debate works? Surely if the protagonist wants some logical debate he should, out of courtesy, provide some himself first?

I am happy for you to disagree and will not pursue the point, but that is the way I always understood these things should work. Maybe I am just old fasioned!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

The fundamental nature of this argument means there will never be any agreement. A scientist will need clear, reproducible and quantifiable evidence of the existence of God before they will be convinced of God being real.

The theist on the other hand will not offer any proof of this kind because they think that would be a denial of faith, blasphemy or whatever. A scientist might point out this is a basic flaw in their argument for the existence of God, the believer will say it shows the strength of their conviction (which it may well do, though I think this misses the point).

Thus we have no solid evidence (in the public domain at least) proving the extraterrestrial provenance of UFOs, the plesiosaur theory of the Loch Ness Monster or the possibility of the chupacabra being responsible for the deaths of goats across South America. Or in fact, the existence of God.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr (at work)
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

What I don't understand is why people, intelligent people, who understand that the world is real and that the supernatural isn't, think that other people have a RIGHT to be stupid. Intelligent thought ought not to be a privilege, but the normal state of affairs. I respect other's opinions only when they are informed (the opinions, that is). I see no reason to respect idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:02 AM

I quite agree, Mrr, but I'm kinda up in the air about which "side" is the idiocy.

Lots of scientists -- damned good ones, Nobel prize winners -- see no incompatibility between their religious beliefs and what their science demonstrates. I find it rather comforting to know that the elements from which I'm made were formerly parts of stars and other things in the Universe and that this body will eventually return those elements for re-use -- and participate in this whole discussion again.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:27 AM

The creed usually covers most of what I need to believe, up until this thread of course. Now, given the number of times I've logged on and read this thread, I think I believe in Trolls.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:51 AM

... To quote what Janie quoted, "atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others".

I have no objection to the former attitude. Bill D exemplifies the former. I am very annoyed by the latter attitude...and it is what I refer to as aggressive fundamentalist atheism...as it is based not so much on a desire for truth as a desire to attack other people, discredit them, tear down their beliefs, and dominate them.

It is that same attack and dominate impulse that often poisons discussions on this forum... and it's a function of the warring ego, not of the dispassionate search for truth.

It's the desire to promote one's own identity at the expense of someone else's, for nothing other than gratification of one's urge to "win", to crush, to conquer, and be SEEN by everyone as having won...

Up to that point, I agree.

I think LH is channeling me. :~) That certainly IS the way so many "religion" discussions hereabouts FEEL and SMELL. Thanks for saying it so clearly, LH. (I think you're distilling what you've been saying in long form for years.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:13 AM

Y'all gotta understand that God/G-d/gods ain't the problem. The difficulty arises when people insist that THEIR understanding of GGg is the correct one, and then they begin to TELL you about it.

"Why, just last Thursday me and GGg was talkin' and HHh told me that what I am about to tell YOU is . . . ."

People like that should be flayed--at least once. Then maybe flayed again to make the memory stick. I loved the scene in "Airplane" when the Hari Krishna guy accosts the fellow in the airport and receives a right for his efforts. T'was a Divine Right I think. Speaking of which, it's snowing and cold here. Have a great day everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:19 AM

Yeah, but how often do you see kings traipsing through airports?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:24 AM

According to Miciu Kaku there are 5 stages of civilization based upon their technological use of energy in the Universe.

We are yet to be a class 1 civilization. A class 3-5 civilization would certainly have energy manipulation tehnology that would be God like in anyone's book.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:35 AM

"Yeah, but how often do you see kings traipsing through airports?"

It's our elected representatives that need to be called into question.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 12:37 PM

Proof of Gods existence

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 12:58 PM

Okay, Amos. ;-) I imagine I would probably agree with most (if not all) of the objections that Dawkins raises against "the toxic nature of some theisms".

I find that when people are arguing against the existence of God...they are invariably talking about a version of God that I don't believe in anyway. They're talking about a straw man they erected in their own mind. Although I do tend to believe in some kind of divine principle at work in life, and I do tend to believe I have a soul that will survive death....that doesn't mean I necessarily believe in any of the specific things that someone is objecting to when he says, "There is no God." He is objecting to something he imagines that someone else believes, he has created it in his mind in its most stupid version possible so he can gaze on it with utter disdain, and it's quite possibly a long way away from what the other people actually DO believe.) And anyway, what someone else believes is really nobody's business as long as that someone else minds his OWN business.

Do people have "a right to be stupid", someone asked? People have a right to be themselves. You may think it's stupid the way they are. So what? Someone else undoubtedly thinks you're stupid too. ;-) I guarantee it. As long as they don't violate your right to be yourself or someone else's right to be themselves they have done nothing to deserve your condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:02 PM

More proof

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:26 PM

Well, it looks like the consensus here is that a belief in a higher authority is fine as long as you don't force your god(s) on me.

Sound reasonable to me. As for the existence of such a supreme being, well, like an afterlife you'll know soon enough.

I've already made my decision about it and no, I'm not going to tell you what it is. So there. Nyah.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:32 PM

Hmmmmmmm

what about Martin Carthy? And that notsominor deity John Kirkpatrick?

In some peoples' eyes....................

Feet of clay? so what?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

I believe in G-d. I just choose not to talk about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:06 PM

Let's state my position:

Anyone can believe in anything they like and I fully respect their right to do so. But some religious people expect others not only to subscribe to those beliefs but to live their lives in accordance with them.

In order to persuade me to respect those beliefs (rather than to respect their right to hold them - there is a big difference!), let alone live my life in accordance with them, such people are going to have to do a lot better than to evoke the nebulous concept of 'faith'.
And because such people don't seem to be able to do any such thing, perhaps they should 'pipe down a bit'.

And I still insist that you can't prove a negative. The Universe is vast (really, really big!!) and we only know about an insignificant amount about an insignificant corner of it. There may be an omnipotent, omniscient Creator for all I know - but I've never seen the slightest bit of evidence for one - but evidence could show up one day. But if He really is omni-this 'n' that, you'd think that He would be fairly conspicuous, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:39 PM

I don't see why anyone here would object to your basic position as you have stated it, shimrod. I certainly wouldn't.

However, I can't relate to this part of what you said: "There may be an omnipotent, omniscient Creator for all I know - but I've never seen the slightest bit of evidence for one - but evidence could show up one day. But if He really is omni-this 'n' that, you'd think that He would be fairly conspicuous, wouldn't you?"

Heh! It sounds as if you are talking about an interstellar version of Pablo Picasso or something...hiding out there in a studio somewhere beyond the Andromeda Nebula...the "Creator", planning his next creation.

This is a fallacious concept to use when positing a God, in my opinion, because it's a very limited concept based on our own experience in dealing with limited phenomena, and mostly...just in dealing with other people. Everything and everyone we know has a location, a description, a history, a beginning, and an end. That's what you seem to be imagining the fictional God you describe to have!

Well, I think if you were to investigate the deeper mystical aspects of Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, and pretty well all the other isms out there, you would discover that the God or the transcendent reality that they are attempting to relate to in their teachings is NOT an individual being with a location...but a principle that is intrinsic in EVERYTHING. It is omnipresent. It's a bit like gravity, you might say. Therefore it's everywhere, not somewhere, and it has no beginning or end, no observable characteristics, no defining boundaries, no limitations.

As such, everything is evidence of that God! Or nothing is. ;-) And that is strictly a matter of individual persuasion or individual taste as to how you look at it. One person can look at another human being or at the sky...and see God revealed therein! Another person will look at the same human being and see only a competitor or an opportunity! And he will look at the sky and see only clouds, sun, light effects, and perhaps a bird flying by. One of those views is more mundane than the other, that's all. One is concerned with the surface of things, the other goes way beyond the surface of things. Science is not going to resolve this matter one way or the other. It can't. Neither is logic going to resolve it. Neither will experiments in labs resolve it. Neither are your words or mine on this forum going to resolve it. It will remain ungraspable and insoluble by any form of human observation or analysis. It's a complete mystery....as is the origin of life itself.

The less a person can stand to be confronted with an insoluble mystery, the more irritated he may become at someone else's faith in something he himself cannot see! But it really doesn't matter. Each to his own.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:55 PM

The San Francisco Chronicle's Mark Morford is a trouble maker, that much is for certain. HEre's some commentaryhe make on organized religion and a newly released film, The Golden Compass, excerpted from his column:

"

The sum of all fears: organized religion

Mark Morford

Friday, November 30, 2007


It has become a rule, some sort of law of the popular culture upon which any open-minded human worth her soul can rely with utter and perfect clarity.

It goes like this: If there is a piece of art, a TV show, a column, a book, a movie, a blog, a movement, a wine bottle or sexual position that somehow deeply threatens the various ultraconservative sects of Christian-blasted America to the point where their pale, dour representatives demand boycotts and distribute angry pamphlets to try to stop people from experiencing said hunk of culture because of how negatively it portrays their seething, condemnatory God, well, it's time to break out the Champagne. Or buy that book. Or get very, very naked. Or all of the above.

So it is with the first movie made from Philip Pullman's astonishing "His Dark Materials" trilogy, "The Golden Compass," a complex, mystically gorgeous, spiritually dense, big-budget fantasy epic so far removed from the cute wizardry of Harry Potter and the thin, childish, monochromatic Christian morality of, say, "The Chronicles of Narnia," that it might as well be a Coen brothers movie. On acid.

Oh my God yes - they are protesting. They are pamphleting. From the Catholic League and Focus on the Family to evangelical/fundamentalist Christian blogs from here to Colorado Springs, they are calling on their trembling armies to boycott the film because they believe that Pullman's brilliant books - which, by the way, if I had the power, I would place in the eager hands of every youngish human on the planet, especially the girls - are not only aggressively anti-Christian, but that they also describe, as their grand finale, nothing less than the death of God. This is what they say.

And here is the terrific thing: They are absolutely right.

But let's be a bit more specific, shall we? Because as any fan of "HDM" knows, it ain't really about God, per se. Pullman's luminous novels have nothing to do with rejecting faith or destroying the spirit or inhibiting the exploration of what it means to be divine. They are, in fact, the exact opposite. They relish spirit and the magic of belief and love, are soaked through with divine inspiration of a kind any intelligent Christian (or honest spiritual seeker of any stripe, for that matter) should crave. This is what makes them so incredible.

The nefarious thing the books aim to kill is religious authority. It's about the destruction of dogma. It's about power, about who wants to control and manipulate life on Earth, about the blind, ignorant, even violent adherence to insidiously narrow codes of thought, belief, behavior, sex, desire and love.

This, of course, is the God of organized religion. This is the false deity that promotes numb groupthink, inhibits growth and abhors the feminine divine (perhaps the books' most beautiful, inspiring theme), the same paranoid, dreadful God that votes for George W. Bush because he will smite the icky gays and protect us from vile pagans and Buddhists and Muslims and feminists and frumpy genius atheist British writers. If humanity is to flourish, to get over its addiction to war and guilt and fear, this is the false God that should - that must - die.

Although the books have as their evil antagonist a sinister cabal called the Magisterium (obvious parallel: Catholic Church), they also have a slew of dark characters in service of the Magisterium, various assassins, double agents and robot drones running around trying to annihilate the children's spirit, destroy magic and lock down faith forever. Let us call these robotic drones, oh, say, the Catholic League. Or Focus on the Family. Gosh, no wonder they're a little peeved.

But it's almost too easy, is it not? Even a child can see that these people are so far from true spirit, so far from open consciousness, it's a bit like comparing a lint ball to a cloud bank, a dung beetle to a flower bed. They are spiritual caricatures, the creepy clowns in organized religion's gloomy circus, all scrunched brows and gnarled hands and so much repressed sexuality that it would make a porn star wince. Really, why give their silly protests any attention at all?

..."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:09 PM

Cool! ;-) Sounds like a movie I'd love to go and see.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:14 PM

I refuse t click on a unknown suspicious link to the exstence of someone's god.

You can lead a horse to water
but you can't make it click a link.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:22 PM

Well, too bad for you! You've just missed seeing Oscar Levant in a tutu.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:36 PM

that's Oscar Levant? I thought it was Orsen Wells.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

God is Orson Welles playing Oscar Levant in a tutu?!?!?

Hm, that actually works...

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

Hi LH,

I admire (and respect!) your eloquence and your passion - but it sounds a bit like faith to me ... But that's a bit churlish - sorry that I'm such a grumpy old materialist.

And thanks for that review, 'Amos' ... what can I say but "Amen" to that?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:48 PM

Well, of course, shimrod. ;-) Everyone has faith...only in what(?) is the question? And by their faith are their actions steered as long as this life endures...and perhaps beyond it as well. But we'll have to wait and see about that, right?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM

The thought of either Orson Welles or Oscar Levant in a tutu is a little more than I can handle.

Pass the Rolaids, please!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:53 PM

Click the link, LH. It is a nude Winona.