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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:44 PM Somewhat related, after viewing an episode of Love Thy Neighbour on youtube a couple of weeks ago, me and the mrs agreed some of it was still fairly funny, whilst having a good serious debate on the obvious issues related to this well out dated sit com... Some quick research did turn up a fact that the term "n1gn0g" [look it up if you want..] is actually much older in English colloquial usage, predating it's popular adoption by racists... Though anyone stubbornly insisting on still saying it in public supposedly in it's origional intended meaning, is just asking for trouble... That's the sort of thing a sneaky covert racist would do... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Dec 18 - 09:24 PM We always believed at school that you could tell a homosexual by the fact that he smoked tipped fags. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Helen Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:45 AM Confession: I skimmed the news article that I linked to fairly quickly and I assumed that the f-word referred to was the swear word, but then thinking throughout the day I couldn't remember if the swear word was in the song. When I read the article I thought the journalist started writing about the swear word and changed course slightly to write about the word "faggot" but now I realise that that was what the main intent of the article. It was early. I hadn't had my first caffeine fix. Apologies. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: r.padgett Date: 16 Dec 18 - 06:25 AM Recently seen the making of "Fairytale of New York" ~ documentary with a tear in me eye ~ UK stores (food) are playing this over and over (on loop I assume!!) and certainly Shane must be laughing all the way to the bank (Christmas 2018) The "f" word is faggot ~ which in UK had a number of meanings ~ but banned for its US meaning (I assume) of homosexual ~ other old meanings were sticks for firewood (or kindling) and a sort of sausage (German?) and old faggott) derisory term for an old woman! Anyway the documentary is very good and the 2yrs it took in the making and source or inspiration for this undoubted masterpiece and cash cow ~ really upset that Kirsty MacColl is no longer with us in such a tragic accident Brilliant Ray |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:05 AM I find the idea of this song being played in stores really depressing. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:10 PM Somebody decides that a word is associated with homosexuality and the world must not use it????????????????????????????????????????? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:19 PM They do so with gay abandon, Bonzo. Now I am just nipping out to roll a fag... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:05 PM This post was started Over 10 years ago,The song has been sung in its entirety with no censorship- by the B.B.C for Many years !!! |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM Perhaps the beeb faggot to censor it...??? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Helen Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:30 PM r.padgett, I can't listen to Kirsty McColl without lamenting her loss. I bought a multi-CD set of The Pogues and there are different versions of Fairytale of NY from the earliest tentative demo tape through to the last version. I haven't seen the doco but I think it would be interesting. The first female singer was not Kirsty McColl, and the change of singer changed the feeling of the song for me. She nailed it - of course. I reopened the thread just because I read the article that I linked to on the Oz ABC news site. If you haven't read that article yet, it was a worthwhile opinion piece. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: r.padgett Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:07 PM Yes Helen ~ first singer per documentary was Pogues own female singer ~ the documentary really is enlightening and the remaking of the song a revelation too Ray |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:55 PM Yes I watched the documentary on BBC4 a couple of days ago. It was very good. So if you have not seen it I imagine it will be on iplayer at the moment. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:55 PM While the use in the song is clearly meant as a casual pejorative (and I presume in it's modern American sense), historically it didn't have that meaning in British English. Patridge gives =baggage, a pejorative applied to a woman (ca1600); faggot/little faggot=applied to a child(ca 1859). (other uses too: as the meaty delicacy, also butchers' oddments (ca 1850), also a man mustered but not yet enrolled (C17-19) and later a man hired to appear on a muster/muster roll(C18-19)) Mick |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 16 Dec 18 - 04:37 PM Now, I have no idea what Shane was thinking - but generally in North America, "faggot" is not a term a woman would throw at a man without having some reason to imply that he is not entirely heterosexual. It's just not a pejorative that women use casually - in my limited, sheltered, protected, bubble-wrapped experience. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 16 Dec 18 - 07:10 PM In the context of the song I don't think there's any implication of him being not entirely heterosexual. A dysfunctional, disillusioned couple, whose early romantic dreams didn't turn out the way they were intending, trading insults. That's how I hear it in the UK. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 16 Dec 18 - 07:49 PM As I say, I don't know what Shane had in mind; I'm just talking about general usage of the word itself - it's just not a word a North American woman would be likely to direct to a man without something behind it. Having said that - I don't know anything about New York Irish immigrant women in their cups .... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:25 PM Maybe not a term a North American woman would use without that implication, meself, but this isn't a North American woman using it. Or a North American man writing it. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:27 PM Which is why I say, "I don't know what Shane had in mind; I'm just talking about general usage of the word itself - it's just not a word a North American woman would be likely to direct to a man without something behind it. Having said that - I don't know anything about New York Irish immigrant women in their cups .... " |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 17 Dec 18 - 11:34 AM When I was young in the 70s 80s it was pretty common for folks to just call someone a poof or homo etc just as a general insult. You didn't really hear the word faggot in that context as it is US usage. But this song is supposedly someone from Ireland who's moved to the US so maybe has picked up the word there. To me though in the song she isn't suggesting he is a homosexual. She is simply insulting him. Just as she calls him an arse and a scumbag. Not PC in the least and terrible I know - but implying someone was homosexual was a common insult. So seems pretty realistic lyric to me. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 17 Dec 18 - 11:59 AM In context of the song, she is so contemptuous of what she angrily regards as such a weak useless man that she is hurling the the word faggot at him to insult his masculinity...????? When I was 14 or 15 my maths teacher hurled the blackboard duster at me, and followed up by calling me a long haired poof in front of my class mates... As if that would stop me mucking about in class... I thought it was hilarious that he'd got so angry... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 17 Dec 18 - 12:12 PM 'Fairytale of New York' must be the most depressing and miserable 'Christmas' song ever. And poor substance-abusing Shane badly needed a dentist (I read that eventually he did get his teeth seen to!) The video is always in black and white, and while the words are, "The boys of the NYPD choir were singing Galway Bay" they're not, they're playing bagpipes. However, I can't resist it. I grab the remote and turn the sound right up, and sing along. Must be because I'm half Irish. As a child, the word 'faggot' meant an unsavoury woman, not a gay man. In Norwich, Lollards were burned at the stake, and had to carry a 'faggot' or 'fardel' to the place where the burnings took place. It's said that the ghost of a young woman carrying her faggot can sometimes be seen at night creeping along near Lollards Pit. Brr! |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 17 Dec 18 - 01:02 PM People seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, so I guess I'm not making myself clear: I'm NOT commenting on the meaning of the song, or whether the term "faggot" is being misused or used correctly in the song - all I'm saying is that for a North American, it is unusual in the extreme to hear a woman use that loathsome term in any context, so if you do hear a woman use it, you assume that she has some particular reason for choosing it. Some discussion of the term had developed; that's how I got onto this. I am aware, btw, that the woman in the song is meaning to insult her partner. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,keberoxu Date: 17 Dec 18 - 01:55 PM Senoufou/Eliza, that the lyrics convey misery is something I cannot deny. The impact of the song for me, however, is not depressing. Just as some of the other gritty Shane Mac (Mac or Mc? I can never remember) Gowan songs, however tough-minded the lyrics, end up making me feel better, not worse. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:09 PM Apart from a reference to the NYPD Choir singing an old standard Irish Music Hall song there is nothing "Irish" about the song at all so God knows where this comes from: "this song is supposedly someone from Ireland who's moved to the US so maybe has picked up the word there." As for the song itself down cliched and depressing. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:36 PM It's odd isn't it keberoxu? The words 'drunk tank' and 'slut on junk' repulse me, as I absolutely hate what alcohol and drugs do to people. And the musicians playing on the video are smoking themselves to death; the air is thick with it. Yet it must rank as one of my all-time favourite Crimbo songs. I do think there's a real Irish flavour to the tune and the words though. I think the 'boys of the NYPD' are mostly Irish aren't they? I also love 'Stop The Cavalry', which is about War and its horrors. But such a catchy tune. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:22 PM Well Durex means sellotape in Australia. The song is sublime both in execution and conception. One of Shane's finest (yes I know he had a collaborator). Up there with Pair Of Brown Eyes, Rainy Night in Soho, Sally McLennane, Old Main Drag, Summer In Siam, Fiesta. Almería once again! I know and love Almería (amazing fish market and a lovely little coffee bar just outside the entrance where we pig out on churros for breakfast)! Come on, where's your soul! Oh my God, Rainy Night In Soho... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:23 PM By the way, there is no NYPD choir. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 17 Dec 18 - 04:11 PM No NYPD Choir? - WOW - There you go, a classic example of why you should never take anything mentioned in a "folk song" as accurately reflecting anything in real life. So we can lump the NYPD Choir in along with those mythical "Glega Nyaff Gaffers" - pure invention. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:35 AM "Apart from a reference to the NYPD Choir singing an old standard Irish Music Hall song there is nothing "Irish" about the song at all so God knows where this comes from:" Nothing Irish about it apart from it was written by an Irishman!! Yes I know he was brought up in London but an Irish immigrant family all the same. It is not the only Irish song (or at least song associated with Ireland) referenced in the lyric either. There is also the reference in the first verse about turning his face away and dreaming about her when he heard someone singing "The Rare Old Mountain Dew". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-vig8GxBA It was always pretty clear, at least it was to me, that the song is supposed to be about Irish immigrants in NYC. Then again I didn't first hear it in isolation. On the album it is in situ with other Irish and Irish themed songs and even with the likes of "Thousands Are Sailing" with other songs about Irish emigration to the US in the same time period. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSYkKpii1kc |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 18 Dec 18 - 04:23 AM Exactly Guest. It's Irish through and through. And thank you for that clicky, I really enjoyed 'Rare Old Mountain Dew'. (And Shane has his new teeth in that video!) |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Terray Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:51 AM Shane's lyric "The Boys of the NYPD Choir" might be somewhat explained here The Unofficial NYPD Choir at the third or fourth paragraph. It reminds me of a scene from The Wire, with Baltimore cops at a wake for a fallen officer singing "Body of an American" along with the Pogues on the juke box. Note a verse of Galway Bay is incorporated into BoaA and afterwards the cops are sobering up out in the street with Sally McLennane playing in the background. Body of An American As for "faggot", the term was commonly used during my grade school years in Maryland (50's-60's) as a favorite epithet hurled by both girls and boys and usually preceded with "You fucking". |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:02 AM And I wonder why Christy changed it to "the boys of the New York po-lice choir..." But I only ever want to hear Kirsty and Shane singing this! |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Rob Naylor Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:25 AM Guest: Nothing Irish about it apart from it was written by an Irishman!! Yes I know he was brought up in London but an Irish immigrant family all the same. Not only "brought up" in England, but born in England, in a suburb of Royal Tunbridge Wells, of all places. Attended the prestigious private Holmewood House Preparatory School, just down the road from my house, from where he went up to Westminster School, another bastion of the English Establishment! If he hadn't been expelled for drug use, he might well have been a Cabinet Minister by now :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:43 AM 'As for "faggot", the term was commonly used during my grade school years in Maryland (50's-60's) as a favorite epithet hurled by both girls and boys and usually preceded with "You fucking".' Well, that surprises me, but I suppose I must stand corrected - and I should have known better than to make sweeping generalizations. I would be curious to hear from other Americans on whether they ever knew this term to used commonly by girls/women ... ? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:08 AM So let's get this right. Just because the lyrics of a song that appears to be set about Christmas Eve in New York makes two references to Irish songs being sang by: a) The occupants of the drunk tank, with the exception of the main male character of the song who according to the song "I turned my face away and dreamed about you". Either didn't like or know the song? b) A non-existent NYPD Choir There is no mention of any detail regarding the man or the woman the story is about yet for some daft and obscure reason it's: Irish through and through I suppose people will read whatever they want into anything as long as they leave common sense, reason and logic at the door. One question though - There is a band mentioned and also Sinatra so why using the same logic is this not: "Italian through and through"? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:10 AM Shall I just state the bleedin obvious in this lengthy heated critical and culural analysis.... There aint much of a choice of suitable words that rhyme with "maggot"... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: r.padgett Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:12 AM Still played a lot at Christmas and makes a lot of PRS money!! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:27 AM Also... it's quite a 'cinematic' recording and performance about specific characters.. and the song is being sung in context of the bleak world these abject dysfunctional characters inhabit, from their perspective, using their colloquial language... A litle mini drama in song. Getting so upset about this one particular use of the word is so narrow minded and petty, verging on pathetic..... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Terray Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:37 AM I wasn't trying to correct you, meself, just relating my experience. I should have added that it was mostly the older kids that used that vulgar phrase. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:14 PM pfr: I do hope that's not me you're thinking is getting "upset" - personally, I'm not bothered in the least - other than by, as I say, the idea of this song being piped into stores to somehow encourage people to spend more money. I just happen to be interested in words and language - I do find that that in itself seems to upset people who don't share that interest. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:19 PM Sorry the Guest post was me. People will read what they want into lyrics that is true. It is just as true for deciding to conclude the song isn't about Irish immigrants as it is deciding it is about Irish immigrants. Yes it doesn't say "I'm Patrick from Dublin in the lyric" and come out and say 100% it is about an Irish immigrant - but there is enough in the lyric to come to the conclusion that it is plus like I said add to that who wrote it and what other songs it is with on the album. In my opinion anyway. Others may disagree which is fair enough! People will read what they want in to a lyric so sorry for me the narrator is not turning his head away and dreaming about his girl because he does not like the song being sung - he's turning his head away and dreaming about his girl because the Irish song reminds him of her! That is certainly how I read the lyric anyway. Incidentally the original first line was according to Cait O' Riordan "It was a wild Christmas Eve on the west coast of Clare - I looked 'cross the ocean and asked what's over there" Likewise the title was borrowed from a book about emigres returning to Ireland from the US. MacGowan himself said the song could also be about any couple anywhere. Which is pretty much a point to. As to the bleeps he said he is fine with people bleeping the word if they feel they must - but the use of the word was not meant for any other reason than being realistic and showing the female character was not a nice wholesome person. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:46 PM "pfr: I do hope that's not me you're thinking is getting "upset"" meself - I'm referring broadly to the internet enabled culture of folks being too easily offended by trivia, then expecting the majority rest of society to pander to their over sensitivities... I'm completely fed up hearing about all the latest 'controversies' being stirred up.. and lazy bandwagon jumping media journalists who can't find anything more significant to write about... ..and I say that as a life-long lefty liberal progressive... They detract from far more important issues, and give alt right more 'evidence' to complain and propagandise about leftwing 'snowflakery'.. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:52 PM pfr: I'm with you there. I wasn't sure if you were referring to the original premise of the thread or the most recent posts. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:59 PM MacGowan himself said the song could also be about any couple anywhere. Precisely the point I made. So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Neil D Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:29 AM There is some discussion here of different usages/meanings of the word faggot. I remember hearing another use of the word that I've wondered about for many years. In the movie "Tom Brown's Schooldays", filmed in 1951 but set in the 1830's, whenever an upperclassman wanted a young newbie to do a chore for him, he would shout the word faggot and a young boy would come running. At the time I saw the movie, some 50 years ago, I only knew the word as meaning a chunk of firewood. I wondered if because fetching firewood was one of the most common chores that the word had become a catchall for any service required of lowerclassmen. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Dave Hanson Date: 19 Dec 18 - 02:05 AM Someone doing chores for a senior public schoolboy was called a fag, not a faggot. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: r.padgett Date: 19 Dec 18 - 03:48 AM yes a fag not faggot doing chores at Public school (for the fee paying privileged Private schooling) in Upper class schools like Eton and Harrow and of course fag common usage for a cigarette still in use in England!! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:33 AM 'So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? ' Mountain Dew meant poteen before it meant Kentucky Moonshine, I suspect. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: keberoxu Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM Illegitimi nun carborundum, Shane. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:21 PM Don't think I'd worry myself too much about ol' Shane ... ! |
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