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BS: Apostrophe Question???
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 08 - 11:57 AM so..is ho a contraction or a careless pronunciation? Should we write nappy headed 'ho''s to indicate the missing w,r & e?....if not, and if ho is now accepted as designated nomenclature, then hos, like Oreos, is enough and needs no apostrophe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Ebbie Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:02 PM "potato's"? You'll have to convince me of that, Dazbo, unless you are referring to its texture, price or color. The plural of potato has always been potatoes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: PoppaGator Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM As a professional typographer for about twenty years, until there was no such thing any longer, I can attest that the apostrophe can and should be used to form the plural of a letter or number. Normally, of course, it is incorrect to use "apostrophe-s" to form a plural; this is the only exception, to my knowledge, to the general rule. When I began my type-shop career as a proofreader, I was unaware of this exception to the usual rule and marked a usage similar to "two b's in Bobert" as incorrect ~ and subsequently learned that I was wrong. Strunk and whatzizname's "Elements of Style" probably will verify this; that's the main "rulebook" we used. This rule (or, more precisely, this exception to a rule) probably came about a matter of clarity: while we might be able to recognize "bs" as the plural of the letter "b" (especially in context), we would more likely be confused when confronted with "as" or "is" (as opposed to "a's" or "i's"), since those plurals-of-vowels can also be seen as two-letter English words. Of course, all of the above refers to accepted usage of American English. It's an obscure and counterintutive rule, and may not be followed in the UK or elsewhere inthe English-speaking world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: meself Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:35 PM [Ebbie: I believe Dazbo was being witty ... ] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM "hos" would be liable to mislead the reader, whereas "ho's" is clearer. But the normal way to avoid that would be to spell the plural "hoes". That makes for a potential ambiguity, but the context would reduce the likelihood of anyone thinking the word referred to garden implements. Better still, avoid the word entirely. If "ho" seen as an abbreviation for "whore" I think that since the "w" is silent anyway it's possible to justify not giving it an apostrophe, and a single apostrophe is sufficient to cover any number of omitted letters. But maybe the silent "w" is there in any case, and it really ought to be written - if it must be written - as "who' ", plural "who's"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:52 PM It just struck me that there has never been a simple question on Mudcat that didn't go for at least a hundred posts. Gotta love this place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Slag Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:01 PM Ebbie, don't tell that to Dan Quayle! "PotatoEs" cost him an election to the presidency of the United States! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:05 PM Yeah. But what's all this talk about potatoes having i's? There are no i's in potatoes. Not even one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Slag Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:08 PM No, no Peace! There are no is in potatos, es there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:14 PM No, there i's'n't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:46 PM i From: GUEST Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:38 AM To those who think there should be no apostrophe in terms such as b's: read the following. Don't put two many as in "as." [unclear] Don't put two many a's in "as." [clear] How many is are there in "is?" [unclear] How many i's are there in "is?" [clear] Unfortunately - no, fortunately, GUEST omitted another possibility. Don't put too (!!!!!!!) many "a"s in "as." How many "i"s are there in "is"? Ivor PS. As for GUEST's, "Don't put two many......etc", I'll say no more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Ebbie Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:49 PM Sorry, Dazbo- my literal mind blazed again... A pedantical insert here: Slag, strictly speaking, Quayle didn't spell it that way. Instead, someone else had spelt the singular as 'potatoe' and, contrary to the student's rendition, Quayle insisted that it was correct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:53 PM here's looking at you the real thing!....eye think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM But maybe the silent "w" is there in any case, and it really ought to be written - if it must be written - as "who' ", plural "who's"... And then there's "who's" as a contraction of "who has". And, while Dazbo's assertion Only plurals ending in "s" and, for some reason, biblical characters have the possesive [sic] apostrophe at the end of the word may be correct in Dazbo's vicinity, other regions of English (such as Oz, especially in universities) routinely use the possessive apostrophe with no subsequent "s" for any word ending in "s". As PoppaGator intimated. Right on, Peace! Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:35 PM I have several style manuals, but I'm too danged lazy to go get them right now. I've always operated on the principle that, in case of doubt, it's best to go with whatever is the least ambiguous. If others understand what you're trying to communicate, mission accomplished. I have been accused of writing long sentences with no commas, sometimes running for half a page, then loading a double-barreled shotgun with commas, pointing it at the page, and letting fly with both barrels. . . . a vile slander! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: KT Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM not always, ebbie, sometimes the plural is spuds. no apostrophe, Bobert. My source...Mrs. Lynch - 6th grade English. "Grammarians may not like it but their subject includes the grey line of popular advance in which usage defines correctitude." Oh, you mean like, "Amos is like, Grammarians may not like it but their subject includes the grey line of popular advance in which usage defines correctitude." and I'm like, no that's not correct, and everyone else is like..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,meself Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM ' ... the plural "hoes". That makes for a potential ambiguity, but the context would reduce the likelihood of anyone thinking the word referred to garden implements.' Unfortunately, though, it would be the beginning of an endless string of tortured, tedious puns .... How about "hoze" - in keeping with the cavalier spelling habits of thoze gangstaz who graced us with the lovely term in the first plaze? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:43 PM Well, well, well... I guess that I can now say that I was on the side the apostrophe... Two b's, danged it... So I showed this thread to the P-Vine and she pulled out the "Roger Clemen's Defense" in saying that I "mis-remembered" the discussion??? So this is my question. Why is it when a man get lucky enopugh to be right every 10 years or so we get the "Roger Clement's" thing thown on our victory??? Nevernmind... But I still loves the girl madly even if she's "lieing thru her teeth" on this one... (Real good, BOberdz.... Here you are crippled up and dependent on the P-Vine to keep yer useless butt from starving and yer talkin' like that about yer beautiful wife??? Man, geeze of pete...) I'm sorrty I'm right... I really am... I didn't intend to be right... It was an accident and I promise to never, ever be right again... I promise... Sniff... It was an accident... I should have been thinkin' of the consequences... Sho nuff should have... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:55 PM Isn't there something in the Constitution about "domestic tranquility?" Man, never ever make a thing with your lady about being right about something unless you enjoy sleeping on the couch! That's kinda basic. Don Firth P. S. And getting caught looking smug can send you out to sleep in the car. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: KT Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:56 PM But you weren't right. Just ask Mrs. Lynch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM Mrs. Lynch??? Shoot, her sister was my 3rd garde teacher, KayTee and let me tell ya' that them womenz were meaneer than an overflowin' catbox and so ugly that they'd make a freight train jump tracks and take a dirt road... Like, why was her name Mrs. Lynch, KTee??? Well don't hurt yer purdy head on this one... It was becuase she "lynched" the English language, that's why... And that is two ***g's*** in "language"... B;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:45 PM "Bobert" contains a "b". Oh, and then there's another one! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:52 PM Chicken!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:54 PM Bobert, I'm glad you're feeling well enough to joke on the Mudcat after the disastrous massage. I am not teasing. I know a woman (in her mid-thirties) who suffered a stroke when a chiropractor twisted a vein in her neck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM Poppagator had it right when he said: Strunk and whatzizname's "Elements of Style" probably will verify this; that's the main "rulebook" we used. Strunk & White, in The Elements of Style (a/k/a "The LITTLE Book") give a series of succinctly phrased rules. The VERY FIRST rule given is (fairly close to verbatim) as follows: "1. To form the plural of a singular noun, add apostrophe and S, regardless of the final letter. Thus, 'the witch's curse'" (and a few more examples). "Exceptions are such ancient names as "Jesus' teachings" and "Moses' laws." Even with the ancient names, S&W looked with favor on recasting the sentence to refer to "the teachings of Jesus" and "the laws of Moses". E. B. White, by the way, was seriously referred to as "The best writer in the English language." You're entitled to prefer some other writer, of course, but that's still a fast league. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:29 PM Harbrace College Handbook Apostrophe 15b Use an apostrophe to mark omissions in contracted words or numerals. didn't he'll they're there's class of '76 15c Use the apostrophe ans s to form the plural of lower case letters and of abbreviations followed by periods. When needed to prevent confusion, use the apostrophe aans s to form the plural of capital letters, of symbols, of abbreviations not followed by periods, and of words referred to as words. Examples: His a's look like o's (The 's is not italicized or underlined). Over half of the PhD.'s were still looking for desirable positions. Her I's are illegible, and her miss's appear to be mess's. Either 's or s may be used to form such plurals as the following: the 1970's or the 1970s two B's or two Bs her and's or her ands his 7's or his 7s the &'s or the &s the VFW's or the VFWs 15d Do not use the apostrophe with the pronouns his, hers, its, ours, theirs, or whose or with plural nouns not in the possessive case. Some examples from 15a; not too many mistakes made here: Al's and Sue's cars Al and Sue's car the doctor's and the dentist's offices someone else's turn men's clothing children's rights everybody's friend a girls' school Keats's poetry or Keats' poetry Them's the 'merican recommendations. The Chicago, I believe, is the same, but one of my offspring done stole my copy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:22 PM The Chicago Manual of Style is available online, for a fee, but it also has some free things you can look up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: BK Lick Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:13 AM The online CMOS has this to say about the use of apostrophes to form plurals: Plurals almost never take an apostrophe. Chicago style uses an apostrophe for the plural of lowercase single letters (x's and o's), but for little else (for instance, we write "dos and don'ts"). Of course, if you come across a plural that would be misunderstood without an apostrophe, you should use one: for instance, in A's and B's, the first term would be mistaken for "As" without an apostrophe, and the second term uses the apostrophe because it would look inconsistent to style them in different ways. Please see CMOS 7.16 and 7.63–65 for more examples and exceptions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:19 AM I'm skipping straight to the bottom. I can't believe this has gone for 78 (now 79) posts. Which is correct? 1. There are 2 b's in Bobert. or... 2. There are 2 bs is Bobert. Bs. The apostrophe is possessive in that position, it isn't used to show plural. But when in doubt, rewrite the sentence. The letter B appears twice in "Bobert." See how easy that is? SRS (one of many Mudcat English majors) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:47 AM Bobert, the reason is that the woman always has the last word in an argument. If the man says something after that, well that's a new argument. And women are all princesses. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,Dazbo at work Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:53 AM So two or more people called Don Imu made a speach about hos? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,PMB Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:04 AM SRS, I would have expected you to be in the US Army, but I can imagine you now, dining with scarlet majors at the base, and speeding glum heroes up the line to death.... The world would be a much safer place if the possessive apostrophe were abolished completely. It adds no information, and on the rare occasions when context does not completely specify whether possessive or plural, it might give a hint to the author that there is a style problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: TheSnail Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:55 AM I think SRS has cut to the point. Letters are not words so you can't use the normal rules of grammar to make their plurals. You have already broken the rules so what you do after that doesn't really matter. The same applies to numbers but, fortunately, there are words for the numbers so you can write "all at sixes and sevens" instead of "all at 6s and 7s". I don't think there are any agreed words for the letters - Aye, Bee, See, Dee... How would you spell the word for the letter W? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Mr Happy Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:01 AM Doubleyou? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:05 AM Bernard Shaw hated the apostrophe, and used to insist his writing were printed without it. I suspect that in fact he didn't actually care much, but enjoyed teasing people who get passionate about this kind of thing. I suspect that the grocer's apostrophe - "Apple's 50p" - is often intentional. It attracts the attention of pedantic passers by, who may then may possibly make a purchase. "The world would be a much safer place if the possessive apostrophe were abolished completely." Yeah, it's really very dangerous isn't it? It could put your eye out if you aren't careful... "It adds no information," If correctly placed it does in fact provide extra information. For example, "the girl's room" means something different from "the girls' room". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,PMB Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:20 AM If the distinction is worth making, McG, it has to work all the time. In speech as well as in writing. Since "girl's" is pronounced the same as "girls'", any distinction is lost the moment you open your mouth. Unless of course you say "girlses". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Schantieman Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM McG, I'm a pedantic passer-by and I make a point of NOT buying from a shop that can't advertise its wares correctly. In fact I'm part of Lynee Truss's punctuation police: only the other day I had to remove and apostrophe from "Fried egg's" add one to "Ladies Thermals" ! Incidentally, does anyone know who led the Pedants' Revolt? . . . . . Which Tyler. I'll get my thermals.... S |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Schantieman Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:53 AM ...er.... whoops! The "and" got moved accidentally there. Perhaps the typogriffs are working...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:55 AM An English professor of mine told us one day as we struggled with punctuation and tenses that grammar is a form of manners. We can still manage to make ourselves understood without apostrophes and with dangling participles. Unless you're an attorney drafting a legal document, where every word, dot, and line is crucial in its place, it probably doesn't matter. I don't disagree with some of the others; BWL using quotes, or the Chicago manual's recommendation of judicial apostrophe application (when a different word would appear without it, such as As vs. A's.) There is more than one way to do it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM As an aside, did you know that apostrophes are illegal on public signs in Quebec? Strange, but true, it cost this guy $786. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:53 AM Geez. There really are language police . . . er, police de langue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM Only in Quebéc, you say? Pity. Wading through the posts here, it is obvious that language police are needed. Uniformity for all! bobad, go directly to jail for leaving off the acute accent in Quebéc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: BK Lick Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:35 PM Québec |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:35 PM You'll have to join him in the cell, Q. The accent aigu goes over the first 'e' in Quebec. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM OOP'S. S'orry, BK. Cro's's po'sted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:43 PM "If the distinction is worth making, McG, it has to work all the time. In speech as well as in writing. " Why? Speaking and writing are different forms of communication, with all kinds of different conventions. For example you can't ask a written sentence to clarify an ambiguity. ............... Never get tempted to go into the shop and point out the solecism to the shopkeeper, Schantieman. Maybe in the course of making a purchase - that's how it works. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM Confession time: I have a Sharpie in my backpack, and I know how to use it. For example, the drive through windows at various North Texas Wendy's restaurants owned by the same franchise, had signs that said "Checks Not Excepted." Strictly speaking, this means THEY TAKE ALL CHECKS. Of course, you couldn't make that clear to the clerks or the managers if you took the time to mention it (I tried a couple of times). This is a job for Garrison Keillor's Professional Organization of English Majors (POEM). (He did a skit in a drive through window on one program.) So I would open my door in line and do a quick cross out of the "Ex" part and write over it "Ac." After I'd hit a half-dozen Wendy's this way they all finally disappeared. :) Last week's message: Garrison Keillor: ...after this message from the Professional Organization of English Majors. The number of English Majors is in decline in this country. You may have sensed that already. Right now there is only one English major for every 75 people, and by 2015 we face a shortage of sensibility that makes it unlikely that America can keep up its high production of memoirs. Let's not waste our English major resources on technical writing. English is not a good language for technical writing. Urdu is much better. Tim Russell: (URDU) Your chances of comprehension are much greater with Urdu. And let's not waste English majors on copy editing. The best copy editors are graduates of criminal justice programs, retired bounty hunters TR: Look at this. Pathetic. Do you even know what a gerund is? Do you? GK: So what's a good job for an English major? (SIZZLING) (TABLEWARE) TR: You want fries with that? GK: A career in the food services industry gives you time to think. It gets you away from your computer, and best of all it doesn't require you to write so you save your literary fire for your novel or play. TR: (DRAMATIC, TYPING) Her smile was like the moon-bright, but melancholy. If you looked closely at it, you could see a man's face. GK: Let somebody else copy edit this stuff. As an English Major, this is not your job. Your job is to flip burgers, until your book deal comes through. And that's ok. TR (BUSH): As President I have come to regret my decision not to major in English which would have been more useful to me than the type of education that in fact I did get at the time. And I regret my decision to get a job as The Decider. Sometimes, when I drop by the White House kitchen and see someone fixing up a grilled cheese and an order of fries, I think to myself: I coulda been good at that. And I woulda had more time to work on my stories and make em more believable than they are at the present time. ...a message from the Professional Organization of English Majors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:19 PM Oh, well. I guess I should stay out of Québec. They might force me to eat poutine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:29 PM NO. Anything but that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:41 PM Worse than that Q - eat poutine and listen to Céline. |
