BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:44 PM

The way to test a cup of coffee is to place a couple of electrodes, one on each side of the cup, then shoot about 60,000 volts through the coffee. If nothing happens, throw it out. If the coffee bubbles and precipitates a bit, it's not bad. But it it leaps out of the cup and chases the current back up the wires, you've got a pretty good cuppa coffee there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

Well its not good coffee unless you can eat it with a fork....

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 01:56 PM

Maybe Starbuck's coffee comes out differently in different places, but I've always found it to be pretty good. I don't drink that much of it. Barbara gets various kinds of coffee beans from Gevalia or from Trader Joe's and grinds it fresh. I've drunk a fair amount of Starbuck's coffee, but I don't think I've ever actually bought any.

A few years ago, a friend who had written a novel wanted me to offer my opinions and suggestions on possible revision and editing. He would come to our apartment a couple of days a week, read a chapter, and then we'd discuss it. On his way, he'd stop at the Starbuck's a few blocks from where I live and picked up a couple of lattés, and as he read, we'd sip away at it. Then, a couple of times, people have given me Starbuck's gift cards, which I have used.

I've drunk one helluva lot of coffee in my life, from my first cup at the age of fifteen, brewed in a large pot over a campfire, to gallons of slop served in various restaurants and coffee shops, to instant coffee that I gulped as a morning eye-opener on my way to work, to a whole, wide variety of coffees, from espresso that would take the enamel off your teeth, to a good, strong Swedish coffee, to all kinds of coffee mixed with other stuff (Turkish coffee, caffé mocha, and Lord knows what all) while singing in coffeehouses. The Café Encore and The Place Next Door in particular took pride in the quality and variety of their coffees.

I know it's fashionable to trash the chain stores and the big guys, but the truth of the matter is that Starbuck's coffee ain't that bad. Pricey, but not that bad.

But then, living here in the Pacific Northwest (logging country), early on, I learned the secret of a good cup of coffee:

Stir it with your thumb.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM

Some day a chapter will be added to "The Civilizing of North America," and it will be about the spread of Starbuck's across the land.
The generic, mostly field grown Brazilian brands are still popular because they are cheap- brands that have gone through several hands such as Maxwell House and Edwards but still pop-up on those big cans.
Which reminds me, I haven't see Stewart's, once the sole coffee used on the Santa Fe railroad, in many years. It was pretty good.

Tim Horton's has been relegated to where they belong, the low-cost strip malls on the periphery; not even Wendys, which owned them for a short period, could stomach them and spun them off.
That 'little cafe' now won't serve coffee without an order for food- but the coffee was always tasteless and remains so. And they charge the same or more than Starbucks.

MacDonald's is another success story, but their coffee that I have had is just passable- something warm on a cold day.

Starbucks represents the best in American entrepreneurship. Like Home Depot, they have what one wants in a convenient location.
When I visit Chapters bookstores, in the Starbucks outlet there, I can sit in a comfortable chair and read (might even buy the book although it will be cheaper from Amazon). Already mentioned was the presence of Starbucks in the supermarket, making grocery shopping less of a chore. Another civilizing influence.

I don't have the hassle and expense of mail-ordering Ethiopian Sidamo, my favorite, but can buy the beans from Starbuck's selections.

Espresso types crept around the Mediterranean, and perhaps reached their apogee in Portugal. It always amazed me how the locals could add four lumps of sugar to the small, filled-to-the-brim espresso cup and not a drop spills over. The Italians also make good espresso.
Starbuck's tries, but the espresso is only fair. Some of the Italian restaurants here do a good job, but serve only with food.

Mellita (a German company) is just one of those supermarket shelf items here in western Canada. I think they may have better choices in the States.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:52 PM

Long live the Costa Coffees in UK!!!

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:26 PM

There are four Starbucks in town; two years ago there weren't any. Two of them are inside markets, one is a stand-alone, and one is inside the Student Union at the University.

If I want drive-through coffee I generally go to Snake River Roasters -- they're on my way to work and closer than McDonalds (which, let it be noted, sell's "Seattle's Best" coffee).

I've got some Arbuckle's in the coffee drawer here at my desk....

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:16 PM

Starbucks is the worst coffee I've ever tasted. And that includes the time I was on a long road journey and stopped at a gas station at around two in the morning. I filled up a coffee cup and went to pay. The woman said "I won't charge you for the coffee it has been stewing for too long".

The one and only time I bought a coffee from Starbucks it tasted as though it had been brewed from old cigarette butts.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: bankley
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 11:14 AM

I used to go to a small 'cafe' in Masset B.C., (Queen Charlotte Islands/Haida Gwaii) it was owned and operated by local natives who called it 'Haida Bucks'.... they were sued by Starbucks for copyright infringement...when this David and Goliath story started getting traction in the non-local media... The BigBucks HQ in Seattle
decided to drop the case.... the Masset natives kept the name 'Haida Bucks' stating that 1) they were, in fact, Haida, and 2) some of their workers were male...


and as Carlin once said "Starbucks is opening a shop in my shorts"

so... Roll Up this Rim....

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 11:06 AM

Along a 6-7 mile stretch of one major road in the Los Angeles area there are six...yes, six...Starbucks. Two are inside supermarkets, the other four are stand alone. Still, it's a bit of overkill.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:55 AM

My Bro-in-Law, who lives in Oakville, Ontario, is a huge Tim Horton's fan. He refers to Costa Coffee as 'Costa Fortune'. Not far from the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:53 AM

Having said all that, my coffee consumption's greatly reduced now they've chopped half my pancreas off and I've succumbed to diabetes. Hence the preference for tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:52 AM

I confess I used to like Starbuck's, but that was until they started opening 'Costa Coffee' and 'Caffe Nero' outlets over here. Hugely superior in the quality of the surroundings, the service and the product, they seem aimed at the European palate rather than the American - richer, stronger coffee and much more palatable (not to mention much healthier) food choices.

And yes Mick, I got it! (Laughing again!).

You've clearly worked out who I used to be, as well! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:37 AM

Good points Mick. I've always been pro-union, my grandparents were involved with union organizing of Pennsylvania coalmines around the turn of the 20th century, and I do try to buy union made whenver possible.   I just throw that out because of the earlier comment as it stands with Starbucks. As you say, debating the current need for unions is probably fodder for another thread.

I always make Starbucks my first stop whenever I need paint thinner.

There is a person who I would like to mention. His name is Ahrre Mahos and he runs a concert series here in NJ called "Coffee With Conscious". It grew out of his business Ahrre's Coffee Roasters which sells great fair trade coffee. Local guys like Ahrre exist all over the country, and Starbucks - good or bad - becomes a tough competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:29 AM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:29 AM

Shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:26 AM

One question: What or who is Starbucks?

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: jeffp
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:26 AM

When I was doing (American) Civil War Reenactments, the Lieutenant would make the coffee so strong that he didn't have to pour it. You just set your mug down next to the pot and it would climb out the spout and dive into the mug.

BTW, he would sprinkle eggshells into the pot and swing it by the bail to settle the grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:09 AM

Your observation actually covers several issues, Ron.

First, if a company is providing decent benefits, a safe workplance, and the workers have voice in the workplace (the #1 reason workers organize, btw), then there likely won't be a union organizing drive.

Second, which deals with necessity, my opinion is that workers are always better off with a collectively bargained contract which guarantees the voice, the conditions, the wages and benefits.

Third deals with consumers. If one believes that the mission that unions serve is important and supports it philosophically, then when there is a choice to shop union or non union, they will shop union.

But......... let's not turn this into a debate on unions (not that you are,btw, but others might), rather let it remain with Starbucks and coffee. We can start another thread if we need to.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:54 AM

Tim Hortons?   Are you kidding me? Some of the worst donuts and coffee that I've ever experienced!!! Blecch!   Give me Dunkin Donuts anytime of the day or night!!!

:On the other hand they've resisted mightily the efforts of the IWW to unionize them."
Well, if Starbucks can offer the same benefits to their employees without the need for a union, doesn't that serve the same purpose? The idea of unions were to better the working conditions. If the conditions meet the employees need, is the union necessary?   Just food for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:48 AM

Well, maybe I just like well roasted beans. I like Starbucks; I can take my 18 ounce traveling cup in there and get it filled up for $1.60 - the usual price of a "tall". And I can (and sometimes do) sit in their overstuffed chairs for an hour or so and read. They do charge for their WiFi connection, though.

I once knew (to speak to) the guy who started Starbucks. He worked in a bean shop - maybe he was a partner - just off of First Avenue in Seattle, about a half block from the Federal Building where I worked, and I bought coffee there to take home. He took some beans up the hill to the Pike Place Market and talked a cafe owner there into letting him sell fresh ground and roasted coffee rather than the Maxwell House (or whatever) that came in the 50 pound bags. The lattes and other crap - and the "entrepreneur" that took Starbucks national and then international - came later, in the mid-1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:33 AM

Well, Mick, if the Brits want to make C-rat coffee I ain't gonna stop 'em. I ain't gonna drink any more of it either.

Had a 2LT once who had never really experienced C rations. So for a breakfast in the field he chose -- scrambled eggs! He filled his canteen cup with hot water so he could make hot chocolate, and of course that didn't dissolve. He opened the can of eggs and...well, he couldn't take the grayish-yellow so he tossed them. The crackers in the can were crushed to crumbs, the jam was moldy, and even the chocolate bar was too hard to bite into. He took a cigarette from the little pack and all the tobacco fell out the end.

His breakfast consisted of hot water with cocoa powder floating on top and two small pieces of gum, all flavored by the laughter of those around him.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:24 AM

No, it's a pagan custom usurped by expansionist Romans. ;~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:09 AM

Shit, Rap, I wasn't goin' to tell them perzackly how to brew it up.....next thing you know, them there Brits will be tellin' us how this recipe was originally from an old English tune and it was usurped by us Yanks...

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:03 AM

******ROFLMAO******

Glad you got it, SJ.....

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:02 AM

Right on, Mick. But I'd use cold water in a clean pot, boil it up over the coals of a campfire made from either oak or hickory, and toss in a handfull of grounds. Move it to a warm spot and let it brew for a while. When you just can't wait any longer, move it off the warm and put in a tiny pinch of salt to settle the grounds. Pour a cup and enjoy it. No milk, no sugar -- if you want a candy bar, buy a candy bar.

Or just open the c-rats accessories pack, pull out the packet of instant coffee and dissolve it in a canteen cup of water you heated over a pinch of C-4.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:01 AM

But I do like a good leg-pull! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:01 AM

Mick, the name came from a sequence of insults hurled at me, and others from Lincolnshire, on the 'Cat by a very unpleasant British lady. I used to be someone else, but decided that if she thought Lincolnshire was the backwoods, that's good enough for me.

I'm no more a Backwoodsman than you're an Oirishman! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Becca72
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:55 AM

I couldn't give less of a shit if every Starbuck's on the planet closed for good. They most definitely over-roast the beans. Give me a cuppa Green Mountain Coffee Roasters from the bakery on the 1st floor of my apartment building any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:49 AM

First off........Starbucks is overpriced and inferior qualithy. Second off, a great American coffee is anything produced by Melitta USA .... in Cherry Hill, NJ. They pay fair wages, have a pension plan, excellent conditions, a great benefit plan, and are covered by a union contract. And the product is wonderful. I also have one of their pod coffee makers which makes a very respectable cuppa.

I have tried McDonald's latte, not bad. But overpriced.

'Spaw...... hand me my shotgun....... I need to put a load of no. 6 chill in the arse end of the guy from England who thinks he's a backwoodsman. That one that's tryin' to make a getaway. After I drop 'im I need to find out if he has ever enjoyed the wonder of a pot of Eight O'Clock coffee made by shovelling the grounds into a pot, filling it with water and boiling it over a fire? Then pouring it slow to leave the grounds in the pot. Backwoodsman, my arse.

hhhhaaaaaaarrrrrruuuuummmmmmpppppphhh.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:49 AM

Well, we have Bettys here in Harrogate and they are simply the best!

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:30 AM

Yo' de man George!
Aaaaaahh, wonderful memories of holidays in Greece.........those guys know how the world should be!
All the best fella,
J

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:16 AM

Agree about Italian coffee, Backwoodsman; they do indeed make the best, just don't know how to enjoy it. Greeks do know: sprawled over three chairs at the seaside, puffing away on your favourite smoke. It's what's known as a Greek worker's breakfast.

The French do indeed come second, not a close one either. Their steaming bidets of far-too-milky coffee are ideal for dunking. But they don't know how to enjoy it. The Greeks do: slouched over the balcony railings, dunking home made bikkies, talking to the neighbours and dripping coffee on passers-by. It's what's known as a Greek housewife's breakfast.

Starbucks - pah! All standardisation achieves in food and drink preparation and delivery, is to guarantee a minimum standard and eliminate the possibility of excellence.

George - living in Chesham, the first town in the UK (that I am aware of) to have caused its local MacDonald's to up sticks and piss off.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM

Come on John, what would an American know about good coffee? The stuff you drink is cold, weak and insipid - what my old mum used to describe as "Water Bewitched" :-)

Now if you want REAL coffee for Real Men, Italy's the place, followed closely by France. Those guys really DO know what coffee's about. :-)

But none of it can compare with a nice cup of Earl Grey with a slice of lemon, or Darjeeling with a drop of skinny milk.

(Exit, ducking and weaving.............) LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 06:14 AM

I think I've explained this to you all before, but one more time perhaps is in order.

The "invention" of Starbucks happened when a broker speculating on "coffee futures" ended up stuck with actually buying an enormous quantity when everyone else realized that it was burnt beyond use for the then existing commercial joe-istas.

Forming an alliance with a down-and-out wannabe entrepreneur, together they realized that if the doctored it up with enough milk/cream/syrup/froth and told people it was something new, and especially if they charged an outrageous price for it, the "yuppie generation" (FKAGB^*) would snatch it up eagerly.

They succeeded far beyond even their own wildest dreams - because people are stupid. (Always a safe bet, but in this enterprise yuppiedom outdid itself.)

Development problems plagued the early days of Starbucks when they found it difficult to convince coffee suppliers that they really did want to buy burnt beans but that hurdle has been (apparently) overcome.

If you happen to be blessed with a loved one who believes that "spending money extravagantly" is a treat, and have given up searching for the unattainable reason why you still love them, and hang around despite not understanding why, you likely will be forced, occasionally, to partake.

As bad as Starslush is, the occasional accidental encounter with "imitators" should quickly convince you that there really is a degree of skill and art in serving it up as they do at Starbucks. (The "coffee tent" at WVA for the past 8 or 9 years is a prime example of the "less comptetent immitator." He tries, but ...)

As the three hour shutdown was advertised as a "training session" it would be nice to assume that the intent was to assure that Starbucks barristas are properly trained in the art of making bad coffee taste less than really bad. Unfortuntately, my assumption would be that the main subject of the lesson plans was

            SALESMANSHIP AND MARKETING.

But then I've been accused of being something of a cynic.

^*FKAGB = "Formerly Known As Greedy Bastards" (a common definition of "yuppie").

John

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 06:07 AM

No I don't care.
Starbucks places are scruffy, the stuff they sell is crap.
TIM HORTON'S - THE TRUE PATH!

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:27 AM

No offence meant to our American friends but I am sick of the way that big American corporations have taken over our British high streets - I boycott them all!

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: GUEST,LTS still pretending
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:14 AM

Bummocks...


"how can there be enough beans (and enough land to grow them) to go around?!" Simple, there isn't - which is why we're losing acres of rain forest and rare animal habitat every week.

I just gave up drinking coffee.... saved a fortune.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:12 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: John J
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 04:07 AM

That must have cost them LOAD$.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 04:04 AM

Couldn't give a tinkler's fart.

Shit-awful coffee. I'd as soon drink instant.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: open mike
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:10 AM

If given the choice of a large chain store or a locally owned coffee place I try to support the local folks. I often hear (when charities are asking for donations) just think of the price you pay for coffee and donate that to us..I guess people pay $5 for a cup ?? I make a pot at home and take a thermos of it with me when I go somewhere, if I think I am going to be needing a drink of coffee. I get beans in bulk 2-5 # bags so usually do not buy it by the cup. with all the cups and pots and gallons of coffee being made in the world every day, how can there be enough beans (and enough land to grow them) to go around?!

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:07 AM

Should we not retitle this thread - did you notice?

I'd be happy never to see another Stealbucks ever again... as a TV advert for a documentary is pointing out at the moment on UK TV, what they charge for one tall latte is what the coffee worker earns in a week.

And just what the f*^k is a 'latte' anyway? Whatever happened to 'milky coffee', 'frothy coffee' and 'rocket fuel' anyway?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:36 AM

They are the MacDonalds of the coffee bars...high prices low quality sameness...I prefer the small locally owned shops myself....better stuff cheaper....and I feel like I can sit there for an hour or two and read and drink coffee or write...Starbucks I always feel rushed. That being sai...I have no idea why them being closed for a few hours tonight was so news worthy....you would think that with everything else going on there would be something more important to inform us about.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:19 AM

Obviously Q wouldn't know good coffee it was poured in his lap and puddled up under is friggin' ass. Tim's food is pretty marginal and the donuts are pathetic even if my Weimaraner is nuts for the fritters. But the coffee is the best.....The Best ....Do you HEAR????    THE BEST!!!!!!

THE BEST GAWDAMMIT,THE BEST.........

...................gotta' layoff the caffeine.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 11:55 PM

I dunno. I can get a good cup of coffee at Starbucks, although it's way too expensive. I have nothing against Starbucks, but I usually opt for a 50-cent senior coffee at McDonald's. Even McDonald's has switched to making pretty good coffee, and I think that's due to the competition from Starbuck's.
Last time I got coffee at Starbuck's, I was so proud of myself for being able to use three words to get what I wanted: "Small latte, please."

I refuse to order tall, vented, and granada, or whatever they call their sizes. How come "tall" means "small"?

But I like their coffee, and their atmosphere is pretty darn nice for a chain store.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:44 PM

IF you ever go to San Jose, stop in at Barefoot Coffee Roasters -- its a whole different experience, kids who really know their beans and plantations and flavor overtones. And expert baristas, too!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:41 PM

Here in Calgary, Starbuck's coffee is the same price as that in any other good place. Second Choice is the same price.

Peerless is good. A great variety of coffee and tea. Used it in California. Don't sell to Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:31 PM

I went into a coffee store here a couple years ago and asked for some Kenya AA in whole bean. The kid at the counter had never heard of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:29 PM

Charlie- living without Starbucks? You poor, deprived man! Maybe a Second Cup will open.

Is Horton's still alive? When Wendy's took over, there was a chance that their terrrible doughnuts and weak coffee would improve, but Wendy's gave up and spun them off. Now it's Canadian again, but with tentacles in Ohio, Michigan, and some other sucker states.

Second Cup is the best Canadian operation. It is growing rapidly and has expanded as far as Istanbul. The only viable alternative to Starbuck's. Good coffee (but very few types for sale), and good sticky buns.

Subject: RE: BS: Starbucks closing: did you care?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:24 PM

Actually, I make my own at work. I buy from Peerless in San Fransisco or Heritage out of Juneau. Right now I have Peerless.