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Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?

GUEST,Ptarmigan 18 Apr 08 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,glueman 18 Apr 08 - 04:33 AM
nickp 18 Apr 08 - 04:41 AM
Banjiman 18 Apr 08 - 05:36 AM
GUEST 18 Apr 08 - 07:08 AM
BanjoRay 18 Apr 08 - 07:56 AM
nickp 18 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,DonMeixner 18 Apr 08 - 08:45 AM
BanjoRay 18 Apr 08 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,john f weldon 18 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM
Peace 18 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM
Jim Dixon 18 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM
Peace 18 Apr 08 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 18 Apr 08 - 11:14 AM
meself 18 Apr 08 - 11:19 AM
meself 18 Apr 08 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Songster Bob 18 Apr 08 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Russ 18 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM
Maryrrf 18 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM
Bill D 18 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 08 - 12:36 PM
BanjoRay 18 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM
Lonesome EJ 18 Apr 08 - 01:23 PM
Amos 18 Apr 08 - 02:21 PM
DonMeixner 18 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM
Peace 18 Apr 08 - 03:30 PM
PoppaGator 18 Apr 08 - 03:54 PM
PoppaGator 18 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM
glueman 18 Apr 08 - 04:06 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM
Jim Dixon 18 Apr 08 - 04:30 PM
Jim Dixon 18 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM
open mike 18 Apr 08 - 05:15 PM
Jim Dixon 18 Apr 08 - 06:08 PM
Fortunato 18 Apr 08 - 09:13 PM
Fortunato 18 Apr 08 - 09:21 PM
Art Thieme 18 Apr 08 - 09:59 PM
GUEST 19 Apr 08 - 04:39 AM
glueman 19 Apr 08 - 05:09 AM
CarolC 19 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,meself 19 Apr 08 - 02:32 PM
CarolC 19 Apr 08 - 02:58 PM
GUEST 19 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM
meself 19 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM
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Subject: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,Ptarmigan
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:39 AM

Can anyone tell me from where & when the word "Timey" first appeared, in relation to Old-Time Music?

Maybe it's just me, but the term 'Timey' sounds excruciatingly TWEE, in the extreme & makes me physically squirm, every time I read it! :-(

Does anyone actually use this term seriously?

Or is it, as I suspect, mostly used as a put down, by people who perhaps don't know this music, &/or don't actually like it?

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:33 AM

It's probably just an expression used in the south that spread with the music. Old Time would be an English version but we use it so as not to be confused with music hall.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: nickp
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:41 AM

Hi Dick

Personally I'd use Oldtime... but am never sure about using it as two words, with or without a hyphen or with a capital T.

Many years ago I heard Jeff Warner and Jeff Davi(e)s doing a duo performance at Towesey festival and one of them suggested that they considered the 'Timey' description related to songs and not necessarily the mountain music repertoire. I can't remember their exact description but that is the gist of it.

DOes that help or make it even more confusing-y

Nick


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:36 AM

I always think of Old Time as being just that and Old Timey as being in the style of "Old Time" i.e. might be modern compositions (or others) but done in the Old Time style (e.g. Be Good Tanyas, Crooked Still etc).

Works for me but maybe not for others!

Paul


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:08 AM

Hmmmmm interesting guys.

So, if I read the above correctly, you are saying:

1 - Old Time Music is the Pure Drop, while Old Timey is music that may sound very Old Time, but which has a more modern spin on it, with perhaps a twist of some other musical form in there?

2 - It is in fact the original name for this music.

3 - You think it might be the term used for the Songs related to Old Time Music.

Looks like I'm not the only one who is a little in the dark, regarding this musical term. :-)

Thanks Nick, for the additional question surrounding this term, namely, should it be:

Old-Time?
or
Old Time?
or
Oldtime?

Lucky old Bluegrassers eh, at least they know exactly what to call their music. ;-)

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:56 AM

In the UK magazine The Old Time News available to members of Foaotmad we try and standardise the use of Old Time (two words with capitals) as the name of the music we support. The use of Old Timey (or Oldtimey etc) is loathed and detested (at least by me) but does occasionally slip through the editing process. Some Old Time tunes are new or newish (eg Winder Slide written by Joe LaRose) and some are even newish and British (eg Margaret's Waltz written by Pat Shaw) but you know they're Old Time when you hear them played in the style, though it does take a lot of use to get them established as recognised Old Time tunes.

Ray


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: nickp
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

Winder Slide NOT traditional...?! Well, you learn something new everyday. Googling reveals it was written circa 1980.

Mind you, Rayna Gellert's Swannanoa Waltz is being treated as traditional and there's plenty by the Mid West crowd - Chirps Smith, Dave Landreth & co.

But no 'Y' on the end!

Nick


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:45 AM

Old Time and Old Timey, Old Timey is a type of sound to me, not necessarily old. Gillian Welch has an Old Timey sound at times.

The first time I heard this term was 35 years ago on a radio show where Grandpa Jones was defining his music as opposed to Bluegrass. Then I read in on the cover of a Bradley Kincaid Song Book from the 30's.

Now what does TWEE mean?

Don


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:05 AM

From the Merriom-Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: twee
Pronunciation: \ˈtwç\
Function: adjective
Etymology: baby-talk alteration of sweet
Date: 1905
chiefly British : affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint

Ray


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,john f weldon
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM

Frankly the word TWEE is very TWEE.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM

"Maybe it's just me, but the term 'Timey' sounds excruciatingly TWEE, in the extreme & makes me physically squirm, every time I read it!"

Some terms do that to me, too.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM

"Twee" is a British term that means deliberately and falsely contrived to seem old, old-fashioned or quaint—like when a new fish-and-chips shop is named "Ye Olde Fysshe & Chippes Shoppe."

It's not easy to sort out what deserves to be called twee and what doesn't. I suppose from some people's perspective, the whole concept of folk music is twee.

Here's my attempt:

Some things are authentically old. Those are not twee. (Assuming they were not trying to look old when they were new.) An antique wooden boat is not twee.

Some things are new but are deliberately made in an old style in the sincere belief that the old ways were best, or at least interesting enough to preserve. Those things aren't twee either, in my opinion. A new, handmade wooden boat isn't twee.

Some things are new, made by modern methods, and have some superficial features that are designed to look old. A fiberglass boat painted to look as if it were made of wood—now that's twee.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM

I don't see "twee" as implying particularly old-fashioned style. More a matter of being sickly sweet, and that can come in an ultra-modern context just as often.

"Old timey" seems to me to be analogous with the similar folksiness of "Grand Ole Opry". Maybe a phoney folksiness, but not necessarinily.

I wouldn't call those birchbark canoes "twee". Phoney, fake, ersatz, but not twee. But I'd not mind having one!


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:05 AM

I dislike it when people use the term 'trad'. The word is traditional. I cringe when people use the word 'veggies' instead of vegetables. But there's nothing I can do about either except not use the terms myself. I hate buzz words or buzz terms: "Celebrate the challenges". That one died a natural death--not soon enough for me.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:14 AM

I have always considered that the term "old timey" was probably used by a few older musicians from the south when describing the music from way back.
The problem in the UK with telling people you play old time music is that they tend to think of Old Time Music Hall (Vaudeville to you folks across the pond).
Personally I have no problem with the term "old timey" any more than when a southern musician will tell me that he "kindly plays it like this". It's purely a use of language and that changes all the time. I can no longer tell people that I like folk music, jazz or old time music without having to clarify what it is and not what they think it is.
As for clarifying "twee" I think that the Plastic Deer and birds that decorate the lawns in front of houses in the Appalachians for instance would be prime candidates for that description.

Hoot


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: meself
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:19 AM

"Old timey" is one of those terms that takes on a kind of "twee-ness" when it's removed from its original context, put into print, and read by those who have not heard it used in natural speech. If you were sitting around with some rural American musicians, and one said, "Here's kind of an old-timey tune", I don't think that would strike you as "twee" - or at least it wouldn't have before you had encountered the term in other contexts. I suspect that those who first put the term into print were used to HEARing it from old-timers and from their own contemporaries, and so would read it differently from the way those of us some distance from the original context read it.

My fellow Canuckian John Weldon draws a noteworthy analogy, in a flippant way. For us, the word "twee" is indeed "twee" - I can't even use it without quotation marks - however, if we were to spend some time in England, and hear it being used in speech, our feelings about it might well change. (Somehow I doubt it, though!)


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: meself
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:33 AM

(Cross-posted with Hootenany - we were "kindly" saying the same thing) ...


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:47 AM

Gaddammit! It's called "Hillbilly Music," and that's that!

Seriously, as the author of "The Old-Timey Banjo Book," I use the term as has been mentioned above, to mean "like unto the traditional hillbilly style, but produced by younger folks who don't live in the mountains." It means "old-time-ish" or "hillbilly-like" or something like that. In some contexts, it could be tweedy, (i.e., twee-like), but if it refers to music in the hillbilly/old-time style, played by or created by people who didn't record it in 1938, then it's a legitimate term.

And bluegrassers had to go through a period, back in the 1950s, when Bill Monroe was actively complaining about use of the term, because to him, it meant that his band's music was being copied. He eventually came to terms with the fact that his band's name had been adopted to describe a whole genre of music, but at first he saw it as a problem.

Next, let's try figuring out what "roots music" means! Now there's a term for all you "No Depression" readers!


Bob


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

For what it is worth....

The story as I heard it is that "old time music" was a category invented by the record companies in the 20s. Both the terms "old time" and "old timey" were used interchangeably.

They discovered a target market and needed a general label to put on a new bin in the record stores. There were already bins for "opera," "classical," "tin-pan alley," etc.

The music was aimed at rural southererns, former rural southerners, and rural southern wannabes.

The epicenter of the "big bang" would be Ralph Peer's Bristol Sessions.

If you listen to the old 78s they are remarkably diverse. About all they have in common is the label "old time."

Russ (Permanent GUEST and old time musician)


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM

There are a lot of folks around here (Virginia) who play Old Time/Old Timey music and many refer to it as "Old Timey". And a lot of these people are old timers themselves - in that context I think it seems perfectly natural.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM

Well...*I* think "old timey" should refer only to music from before about 1650 ☺......

but at least most people understand HOW it is used today, and leave the term alone! I just wish they would leave either 'folk' or 'traditional' alone so I could simply say "I listen mostly to 'folk' without having "The Kingston Trio" played for me.

(I think I'll just agree with Songster Bob.)

(and with Peace...I HATE it when someone says 'shrooms to refer to edible fungus!)


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

If you heard the term being used in the Appalachian milieu (which is where I first heard it), it would sound exactly right and not "twee" at all.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM

BTW, while living in Appalachia (more than twenty years), I never heard it being called "old time" music. Only "old timey".


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:36 PM

"tweedy" is just about the polar opposite of "twee". Mind, it might qualify as a kind of "old-timey"...

I find it intriguing the same some people develop a hostility to words that seem quite inoffensive. (My wife can't stand the word "supper" for example.)


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM

Songster Bob - Many people in the Appalachians have nearly as much hatred of being referred to as Hillbillies as African Americans hate being referred to as the N word. You wouldn't call the blues N music, would you?
Ray


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:23 PM

Yes, I have some relatives back in Kentucky that have been disparagingly called "Hillbillies". The preferred term would Rural Nouveau-Celtic Agronomists.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:21 PM

Old-timey is the adjective based on the other adjective "old-time" as in "old-time religion", but generally applied to music. One would not speak of "old-timey religion" -- it would evoke a picture of angels in a jugband. Not a bad way to pass eternity, I guess. With all eternity to jam, you wouldn't have to worry about the banjo player being off time.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM

So....I usually will type Trad rather than Traditional because everyone seems to know what it means and it is less time on task.

Richard Simmons would be Twee but not necessarily would Graham Chapman.

and regarding names and items... Twee means things that are just too, too, nifty.

Now that I know I would be Twee I'll never call those mountain dwelling Nimrods Hillbillies again.

Thanks.

Don


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:30 PM

Ma fellah Uhmurikans


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:54 PM

As someone who has spent no more than a few short weeks of his sixty-plus years outside the boundaries of the continental US, it never occurred to me that the phrase "old-timey" would be considered silly or overly cute or whatever else one might mean by "twee." Only Brits would have that reaction.

Many aspects of culture differ on either side of the ocean. As noted earlier, "old time music" in the UK might mean music-hall/vaudeville, while in the US ~ even outside the "folk" subculture ~ the term is widely understood to define an entirely different genre of rural string music.

It seems, also, that in the UK, subsituting the word "timey" for "time" in this phrase is seen as unnecessarily cutesy or juvenile.

In the US, "old timey" is simply the native pronunciation of this term; the urbanized or more academically-correct phrase "old time" is more likely to be heard as an affectation than would be the good old traditional term "old timey."


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM

Oh, and one more thing: I've always understood the contraction "shrooms" to mean not simply edible fungi, but specifically psychedelic edible fungi.

I've never heard anyone use this term in the produce aisle, after all ~ only in much more "recreational" contexts...


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:06 PM

"In the US, "old timey" is simply the native pronunciation"

S'what I said first post down and I've never been to the States. Old Timey has one great advantage over Bluegrass - no solos. It's the reason I could never love jazz, especially when the audience applaud. It's showing off plain and simple. Mind you, I live in the north of England and pretty much everything is showing off.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

I don't think I would specifically characterize it as "southern", though. I don't really think of the parts of Appalachia in western Pennsylvania, western Maryland, and even parts of West Virginia as being particularly "southern". But they are important sources of the mountain culture that has contributed a lot to the music that is called "old timey" by the people who live in that region and the rest of Appalachia. I know that parts of the south have contributed as well, such as the piedmont region of North Carolina, but it's not specifically "southern".


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:30 PM

Google Book Search finds 228 occurrences of "old-timey" (with or without the hyphen) when you limit your search to "full view" books only—that means mostly books old enough to be out of copyright, by American law. I didn't look at all of them, but these are some of the oldest ones I found:

1777: They had worked hard and long in the old-timey drawing-room, for only the very last rehearsals were to be held upon the stage with the full company. – Lectures on the catechism of the Church of England, by Thomas Secker.

1781: "Kind of old-timey stuff down below here," he explained. "Just common folks used these rooms, I judge likely." – Philological Inquiries: In Three Parts, by James Harris.

1831: I felt as if the dust of ages had settled on me when I came out of Prague, all is so quaint and "old-timey" there. – Encyclopædia Americana: A Popular Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Literature ... , by Thomas Gamaliel Bradford, Francis Lieber, Edward Wigglesworth.

1849: There were lots of curious things everywhere,—things that were apparently so "old timey," as my wife remarked, that David Dutton did not care to take them. – Graham's American Monthly Magazine of Literature, Art, and Fashion, by Ann Sophia Stephens, Rufus Wilmot Griswold.

1858: But Don Quixote reaches all our hearts; Your Milton's satans well deserve to fall, For fighting Heaven with such old-timey darts; Heigh ho ! – Rural Essays, by Andrew Jackson Downing.

1869: The 'Doll's House' glanced right off this blessed old-timey country. You wouldn't know where it had been hit." – Paris by Sunlight and Gaslight, by James Dabney McCabe.

1872: Just across the way were two more old timey darkies, gossiping across a fence. – Americanisms: The English of the New World, by Maximilian Schele De Vere.

1876: ... more that preference was to be given in the kitchen to a cook of the plantation type, — the type that we have come to call here the "old-timey" negro. – Florida.

1876: The bride made a sweet, old-timey picture in her black satin gown, with "mutton-leg" sleeves and pointed bodice, trimmed with pipings of black silk; – Florida, by Sidney Lanier.

1880: Of late his self-assurance had seemed to be fraying and frazzling away, along with those old-timey, full-bosomed shirts of which he had in times gone by – Louisiana, by Frances Hodgson Burnett.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM

OOPS! I think some of the dates and attributions in the previous post are screwed up--that is, mismatched to the quotes. I will work on getting that corrected.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: open mike
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:15 PM

"Hillbillies"..."Rural Nouveau-Celtic Agronomists"..."Mountain Williams"


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:08 PM

That list of citations I posted earlier is so wrong, it's worthless. Here's a better one:

1849: "…we had laid out to buy two or three pieces of furniture, to set off our parlors — a pyanna, for one — ours, that the girls learnt on, that is Jane Louyza, being rather old-timey — (it was left to me by my Aunt Easter, in her will;)…" – Graham's American Monthly Magazine of Literature, Art, and Fashion, by Ann Sophia Stephens, Rufus Wilmot Griswold.

1858: The terraced garden, too, is quaint and "old-timey." – Rural Essays, by Andrew Jackson Downing.

1872: Hence, J. E. Lowell describes an inefficient "old-timey" place as having "Many social priviledge, but a one-hoss starnwheel chaplin." (Bigelow Papers, II, p. 20.) – Americanisms: The English of the New World, by Maximilian Schele De Vere.

1879: There were lots of curious things everywhere, — things that were apparently so "old timey," as my wife remarked, that David Dutton did not care to take them ... – Rudder Grange, by Frank Richard Stockton.

1880: The rooms, now, they're low—whar they're not to say small, they're low an'—an' old-timey. Thar aint no style to 'em. Them rooms to the Springs, now ... – Louisiana, by Frances Hodgson Burnett.

1885: She hasn't a bit of style, and her clothes are so queer and old-timey; and she's always lived up on that horrid farm, and hasn't an idea beyond it. ... – A Little Country Girl, by Susan Coolidge.

1887: There is one room furnished old fashioned — cherry bedstead and drawers — "old timey" chairs, a spinning wheel, and other things, of a like character. ... – American Court Gossip; Or, Life at the National Capitol, by E. N. Chapin.

1887: Don't it look old-timey though? I s'pose ye keep that t'remind Zury haow humble he started aout! Wai, it's all turned aout fer th' best, thank the Lord! ... – Zury: the Meanest Man in Spring County: A Novel of Western Life, by Joseph Kirkland.

1888: ... females who can't talk English, peeping out over balconies that offer to drop down on you, and then don't keep their word; every thing old-timey, and Frenchy, and Spanishy; unprogressive — you wouldn't like it. – Bonaventure: A Prose Pastoral of Acadian Louisiana, by George Washington Cable.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Fortunato
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:13 PM

Jim, thanks for those references.
I think you've, by implication, summed it up. For my family, in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, the phrase 'old-timey' was a descriptor that could be applied to almost anything. It meant, and means, an object or action from another, older, time, with the occasional addition of implying that it is quintessentially that. Examples of this would be an 'old-timey' clock, an 'old-timey' recipe for pie, or an 'old-timey' wood stove. The 'old-timey' Hamiliton Railroad Special pocket watch was 'the' railroad watch.
I don't dispute that some folks may have used Old Timey in place of Old Time as a musical genre, but 'Old-Timey' for us has always been a general adjective.
Less often, and not by Valley folks, have I heard someone speak of an 'Old Time' car, clock, but I have heard it.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Fortunato
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:21 PM

Oh, I forgot the TWEE part. My dad who immigrated from South Alabama,from an Applachian Culture that reached the sand hills nearly intact, to the Shenadoah Valley in 1935, revered 'old-timey' objects and activities.

When my dad said 'old-timey' there was nothing TWEE about it.

all the best
chance


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:59 PM

From Bascom Lamar Lunsford at his festivals in North Carolina circa 1930.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 04:39 AM

Hey thanks guys.

Isn't it fascinating how a word or expression can be in such common use & yet so many people who use it, don't know a whole lot about it, or even whether or not it is the correct expression to use.

I enjoyed getting the lowdown on the word Hillbillies too. I just assumed it was a nickname that the folks in that area were quite proud of. I know that here in Ulster, in certain Protestant circles, people are proud to think that possibly the term might be traced back to followers of King Billy who emmigrated from here to the mountain regions over there.

Perhaps some of you learned folks here might know if that idea has any basis in fact?

Anyway, thanks Jim, looks like the Old Timey mystery has finally been cleared up.

So the African American spiritualists & Charles D. Tillman got it wrong when they wrote the song: OLD-TIME RELIGION!
Or maybe Charlie just didn't hear them right? :-)

Refrain

"'Tis the old time religion,
[or Give me that old time religion]
'Tis the old time religion,
'Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me."

< http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/l/oldtimer.htm >

I guess it should be - Give me that Old Timey Religion!

So, am I right in thinking the phrase simply means 'Old Fashioned', in which case, perhaps to be perfectly correct, we should read & write 'Old Timey Old Time Music', otherwise the term Old Timey could be referring to absolutely any form of old fashioned music?

I suppose the term is used a little like we use 'Traditional' over here, as with music, antique furniture etc etc.

Hey glueman, I know what you mean about the "showing off" thing.
It's the same thing north of the border too, of course.
Mind you, over here in Ulster, the Catholics have it all wrong.
Despite locking up children's swing parks on a Sunday etc etc Protestants are in fact allowed to do pretty much anything they like ....... just so long as they don't actually ENJOY doing it! :-)

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: glueman
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 05:09 AM

Interesting Dick. The mother of a friend of mine was holidaying in the western isles (she's a Scot) and her children, age 3, 5 and 7 were paddling in the sea on the sabbath. She was roundly abused by the locals and accused of indecency because her girls were in swimsuits.
The nuns and priests who taught/knocked the living daylights out of us certainly weren't going to let Protestants corner the gloom franchise. Everything was showing off in our popish corner and punished accordingly. It left me with a schizophrenic liking of Rome's bells and smells but a desire to live in self denial and austerity thinking the reformation was a jolly good thing. My wife's lot are orange but even they think I'm a hard line ascetic.
You're right, it's enjoyment that does the damage; Irish dancing is the perfect example - lower body, an orgy of thrashing limbs, upper body, stillness and misery.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM

So the African American spiritualists & Charles D. Tillman got it wrong when they wrote the song: OLD-TIME RELIGION!

I wouldn't make any assumptions about that, although it would be an interesting question to explore. I know that African Americans did contribute to the musical culture that spawned what is now known as "old timey", but while African American spirituals came essentially from African Americans, old timey music came from European Americans as well as African Americans. So there may be some differences in word usage. Also I don't know if African Americans used the term "old timey" to describe that kind of music (prior to the Carolina Chocolate Drops using it), or if the term is/was used only by European Americans. Unfortunately, in the part of Appalachia where I have lived, there weren't very many African Americans, so I have no direct experience myself.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:32 PM

"So, am I right in thinking the phrase simply means 'Old Fashioned', in which case, perhaps to be perfectly correct, we should read & write 'Old Timey Old Time Music', otherwise the term Old Timey could be referring to absolutely any form of old fashioned music?"

No - because "old timey" apparently is a general expression that can apply to virtually anything suggestive of bygone days, but "Old Timey", capitalized, refers to a specific genre of music.

..................................

"the phrase 'old-timey' was a descriptor that could be applied to almost anything. It meant, and means, an object or action from another, older, time, with the occasional addition of implying that it is quintessentially that."

An interesting observation - my mother uses the term "old-fashion(ed)" in that way, with the added implication that the thing or action thus characterized is somehow possessed of greater validity than its pale, faded, modern, ersatz equivalent. So, for instance, once ever two or three winters, we would be blessed with a "real, old-fashion snowstorm". Some young relative might be a "real, old-fashion farmboy". Etc.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:58 PM

So, am I right in thinking the phrase simply means 'Old Fashioned', in which case, perhaps to be perfectly correct, we should read & write 'Old Timey Old Time Music', otherwise the term Old Timey could be referring to absolutely any form of old fashioned music?

You could do that, but you might be laughed at if you tried it at the porch picking down at the corner store in a lot of parts of Appalachia. The term "old timey" is spoken in that context, rather than written, and everybody knows what you mean when you say it.


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM

Don't worry Carol, my tongue was firmly in my cheek! :-)

OK "meself", I must try to remember, to talk in Capitals! :-)

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Old-Timey ... TWEE or what?
From: meself
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

Hmmm - who was it that said "we should read & write 'Old Timey Old Time Music'" ...

(Gotcha there, didn't I!)


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