BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:13 PM

Ruth Archer, as you actually mentioned me in your post I thought I might respond to you directly and in reverse order of your comments.

1- I am sorry you and your mother had medical problems; I'm glad you got great care, and just a scare. I hope your mother has had a good recovery, too; you didn't say. BTW, I was not referring to UK.

2- If CarolC did not mean that foreign aid keeps the US from having a good medical care system, then she shouldn't have conflated the two in the first place.

3- I don't approve of folks "deliberately misinterpreting her views" or anybody else's views, however, she has been the queen of that tactic over the years, even unto this thread. I have many times called her on the use of twisting comments and/or deliberate misinterpretation of my comments, even unto this thread. I invite you to do the research.

4- David Brog does not head Christian Zionists (which is like saying he heads Democrats or some other maxi-group). He heads a specific CZ organization, Christians United for Israel, which group claims to not share the more apocalyptic interpretation of Jew/Christian relations as other such groups. He claims he is a normative Jew. Until I learn differently, I will (warily) give him and them the benefit of the doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:54 PM

T.

You forgot to mention the corresponding figures for the Arab nations... (speaking of genocide)


Ignor Saudi Arabia and Jordan, though: Jews have never been allowed to settle there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:39 PM

Hi John on the Sunset Coast,

1 - she has had a long battle, but her recovery has been a good one. Thank you.

2 - I think the point she made is a valid one for the reasons I've said. It isn't a deliberate conflation to say that the government's first priority should be the welfare of its citizens, not financing foreign wars.

3 - that may be - I was only judging by what I've read in this thread.

4 - thanks for the clarification. I was disappointed to find, reading his biography, that David's politics have moved so far right of centre (but I suspect he'd be similarly disappointed that mine have moved so far left). He was a sweet, funny boy and a good friend. And his mother did make a great goat's cheese sandwich (which seemed very cosmopolitan to me at the age of 16!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

(Israel being the European colonialists who are dispossessing the indigenous people, and the Palestinians being the ones who are being dispossessed).

This is from Carol C.--the historian. Let me see, if I understand---no Jews there in biblical times, no Jews there in 18th, 19th or 20th century (until after WW2). I will have to clear any bookshelf I come across with History books on them and replace them with some items that, perhaps, our local historian can recommend because they show the non-habitation by Jews in the area.

Shame about that wrong turn in the desert---some got oil some got rocks--but did make the desert finally bloom.

As to misunderstanding--as another writer states---of the same "historian" not really directly linking medical care (isnurance) with U S spending on foreign interests---read her words. She made those statements---not I.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM

Colonialists are people who colonize other peoples land. So to those whose land is being colonized by others, the ones doing the colonizing are colonialists.


If I was allowed to respond directly to posters, I would thank someone for accurately summarizing my positions. Unfortunately, I cannot, but I hope that this person knows that I appreciate her efforts.


Moving on...

There were certainly Jews in the area that is now Israel and occupied Palestine prior to the arrival of the European Jews there. Which is why I am careful to frame the situation as indegenous people versus EUROPEAN colonialists. Even the indigenous Jews have experienced horrendous treatment from the European Jews who have taken over their area of origin.

As I've been saying for a very long time (and being entirely ignored when I say it), it's not about Jews versus non-Jews. It's about European colonialists versus indigenous people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:45 PM

My whole reason for mentioning the money being sent to Israel and the lack of health care for almost 50 billion people in the US was to voice my opinion about this state of affairs. I don't think its right for my hard earned tax money to be sent to Israel when I don't even have any access to health care.

This is not a conflation of the two. It is saying that I think that money should be spent here at home. It's my tax money, and I should have some say in how it is spent. We're not supposed to have taxation without representation here in this country, but the government of Israel has more say in how my hard earned tax money is spent than I do. This is taxation without representation, and it's not right. I feel the same way about the money being spent on the Iraq war, but the subject of this thread is Israel and not Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM

I need to correct my last post. I said 50 billion people but I meant 50 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:50 PM

"I'll take our system with all its warts" wrote John on the Sunset Coast.

This is drift - but isn't the health care system in Australia, where I believe the Sunset Coast is situated, relatively similar to the kind of health care system in most European countries, rather than to the system in the States?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:54 PM

Our historian, once again presents an interesting perspective. Europeans are now the root of all evil.

Surely, European hands are not clean---think Inquisition, think Crusades, think Empire building. However, we can find fault with all peoples---think Atilla and his hordes, think Japan and the rape of Nan-king (and, have I somehow forgotten Pearl Harbor?), and our dear religious friends of the Middle East who learned to fly planes but completed their ETA in Nirvana by killing over 3,000 innocent "European" and world citizens at the World Trade Center.

The fact is that fault goes to all peoples for following their own golden rule---instead of do unto others as they would do to you---it is --do unto others before they get to do you.   Sad.

Would that man's inhumanity to man was not the coin of the realm because of power hungry people in all nations and the blind following of the sheep-like multitudes with them---and that includes our Dubya.

It still won't get you medical insurance as a direct link to all the above.

As for the fellows who arrived in Nirvana on schedule---I have it on good authority the virgins had been fooling around whilst waiting their arrival and, boy, were they dissapointed. Planning, I hear, to learn to fly a cloud and try for a different Nirvana---one with like minded guys.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the genocide of the indigenous people of North and South America, for the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of Africans, as well as for enslaving many generations of their offspring, they are responsible for apartheid South Africa, for numerous and horrendous acts against the indigenous peoples in all of the other countries that were colonized in Africa as well as many other parts of the world.

On top of that, Europeans are entirely responsible for the Holocaust.

And the European colonialist model is still being used in Israel and occupied Palestine in the ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

This is not to say that Europeans are the only people who have done bad things to other human beings, but they certainly are at the top of the heap when it comes to the amount of aggression they have committed against their fellow human beings, and the amount of enslavement (both de facto as well as de jure) they have imposed on other peoples.


And I am entitled to have an opinion about how my tax money is spent, and nobody has a right to tell me I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:44 PM

Right you are---on how your tax money is spent. Fat lot of good it does you or I. In a perfect world it would work as you describe but, sadly, by your own comments you know it is not a perfect world.

Europeans seem to be your "whipping boy". Europeans and the Holocaust--which killed other Euoropeans. Europeans for all the evils of the world---oh, yes you did mention that there some other miscreants. But why define them.   Are any Middle Eastern people on your list, any Far Eastern ones?   

One of the musical groups I play on my show---Modern Man does a great routine about various ethnic groups--Irish, Jewish, etc; and start with saying---my folks were the Scandinavians---they were a motorcycle gang that used boats. Screwed everything up when the got to Greenland---- burnt and pillaged---they were told you pillage before you burn---damned stupid vikings. Well, they got there and said---..we gonna be real happy here---dark 6 month and colder than shit.

Truly--- a little humor is needed for these commentaries that, frankly, go nowehere except to inflate the ego of the poster. Yes---you can include if you like but, honestly, I am just tired of the pontification of the pompous posters of pap---how is that for alliteration?   Should I submit it to Jon Stewart or just keep doing this for free on my own program?


BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

My tax money is not financing the activities of the other "miscreants" in the Middle East. My tax money is financing the activities of the government of Israel. This not only gives me a right to speak out against what it is doing (with my money), but it gives me a responsibility to speak out about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:29 PM

"Screwed everything up when the got to Greenland---- burnt and pillaged---they were told you pillage before you burn---damned stupid vikings."


                   Looking at it logically, one would think they would rape the women, then pillage, and then burn. But I think it was the mini-ice age that really did them in. They were victims of climate change, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

" They were victims of climate change, it seems to me. "

But...

but...

St. Al told us that it was industrial Western society that causes climate change- how could that possibly have anything to do with the Vikings???


There are NO other causes for climate change- Thus saith the Word.


YOU are apostate and to be shunned!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

It must have been the coal fired plants the Mayans were operating in Central America that nobody knew about at the time!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:12 AM

Or all those auto-de-fes in Spain... Oh, that was later.


Maybe the Cretan Cruiseliners had something to do with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

More drift (opr rather responding to drift).

There are NO other causes for climate change- That's a distortion of anything that Al Gore or others have said.

It's a bit like saying that anyone who warns against the dangers of dropping matches in forests believes that the only cause of forest fires is people dropping matches, and drawing the conclusion that there is therefore no reason to take any notice of such warnings, and that dropping matches in forests doesn't involve any risk of starting a forest fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:05 AM

To claim that nothing EXCEPT reduction of greenhouse gases is required to STOP global warming is just as bed- Given the past ( history) and known flaws in (ever-changing) models, the emphasis should be in the preparation to survive the warming ( or cooling) NOT in trying to keep it steady-state. WE CANNOT CONTROL SOLAR FLUX!

No proponant of limiting greenhouse gases has pushed for ANY changes to adjust populations to global warming - ONLY the attempt to stop it.

Why are we not moving populations out of flood areas?

Why are we not using the warming to develop new areas of food production, as the old ones get warrmer?

Why are we not changing the crops in specific areas to allow for the effects of global warming?


We should be moving our sand-castles, NOT telling the tide to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:20 AM

Still drifting - "To claim that nothing EXCEPT reduction of greenhouse gases is required to STOP global warming". Does anyone ever say that? If they do they are stupid and ill; informed, but I don't think I've ever come across anyone who did say that.

If what we are doing is making things worse it makes sense to stop doing it, even if there are other factors outside our control which are also making things worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

Feel free, but it is being proposed as a SOLUTION to GW. I have yet to see any effort being given to the adjustment of populations/species to GW, JUST to reduction of greenhouse gases.

So, we get rid of all the transportation and food production, and THEN try to move people ( and animals) to new zones, and change the food production after we have reduced it by limiting carbon footptints?

Perhaps we should move people FIRST, THEN try to reduce to carbon footprint by limiting transportation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:54 AM

It's gonna end up being Israel's fault--climate change that is. Just you wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

CarolC - PM
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Now let me see what CarolC has come up with now, by way of denial, in order that she can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with her "Palestinian" brothers and sisters unburdened, in her own mind at least, by the transgressions of her ancestors:

1.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the genocide of the indigenous people of North and South America," – What all of them CarolC? All the indigenous people of North and South America were killed and wiped out by Europeans and people of European origin (euphemism for Americans)? Really? Because that is what genocide is, the murder of a whole group of people, especially a whole nation, race or religious group. The "Holocaust" of the Nazi era was attempted genocide, what happened in Rwanda was attempted genocide, what happened in Cambodia was attempted genocide, what the Government in Sudan and their Janjaweed allies are practicing/attempting in Darfur at the moment is genocide.

2.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of Africans, as well as for enslaving many generations of their offspring" - Well maybe according to Arthur Hailey in his best seller, "Roots", CarolC, but that was the stuff of fiction, not reality. The Slave Trade was extremely well documented by those Europeans and people of European origin (Americans – "A Yankee ship came down the river blow boys blow; Her masts and yards they shone like silver; Blow me bully-boys blow) who took part in it. They kidnapped millions of Africans did they CarolC? Any idea how they managed that? When? Where? In the 350 years of the trade there were only ever two instances where "Europeans and people of European origin" went into the hinterland of the West Coast of Africa to collect slaves, the rest of the time they picked them up from Barracoons on the coast. The greatest slavers in Africa CarolC were the Africans themselves aided and abetted by your pals, the Arabs, "Europeans and people of European origin" came a very poor third.

3.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for apartheid South Africa". Europeans most certainly were not, as apartheid only came to South Africa after 1948 when the Afrikaner National Party won the elections there. So this must be down to those classified by CarolC as "people of European origin", in this case the Afrikaners, formerly the Boers, formerly Dutch Settlers of the Cape Region who had arrived there in the 1650's, and who pre-dated the arrival in the area of the Zulu's by nearly 200 years.

4.        "On top of that, Europeans are entirely responsible for the Holocaust." – Really CarolC? Don't you find that just a little bit too much of a generalization? Europeans in general were responsible for the Holocaust. No, CarolC, one single political party, in one European country was responsible for the Holocaust and in general it was the vast majority of Europeans who rose up to combat it – Now what is the betting that somebody is going to comment that we couldn't have done it without the help of the Americans, which is true, and for which we are all extremely grateful. But note in this context they will be described as Americans who came to our aid, not "people of European origin".

5.         "Europeans and people of European origin", CarolC have admittedly done many bad things as have others, they have certainly made mistakes down through the centuries as have others, but what cannot be denied is that balanced against all of that, they have also brought much good to the lands they traveled to and traded with and to mankind in general.

"Ethnic Cleansing" of Palestinians? When their population has grown at a near equal rate to that of the Israelis since the 1960's. Pretty inefficient and ineffective ethnic cleansing don't you think CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

Genocide is not the murder of a "whole group" of people. At least not according to the people who name mass killings "genocide". Rwanda, for instance, or Darfur, or the Holocaust.

This is from the United Nations' Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide...

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Whether or not some of the people in Africa assisted the slave traders in doing their work, that does not mitigate the crimes that were committed by the slave traders themselves. When the slave traders took possession of human beings, regardless of whether or not they took them from their homes or from other Africans, they were still kidnapping them. They didn't have to take them from the other Africans. They could have set them free. They did not. They took them and placed them in bondage and sold them into slavery.


While the Zulu may have arrived in South Africa after the Europeans, the San and the Khoekhoe predate the Europeans by thousands of years, and non-Zulu Bantu speaking people predate the Europeans by many hundreds of years. Thulamela was occupied by these people in the 13th Century, and Mapungubwe in the 12th century.


There were no people responsible for the Holocaust who were not Europeans.


I notice that every time I make a point to correct someone's distortion of my words, people take that point and distort it as well.    The purpose in saying what I did about Europeans is to point out that the conflict is not between Jews and non-Jews, but between European colonialists and indigenous people. I'm really not interested in having a debate on who is the biggest bad guy.


Whether the ethnic cleansing is effective or not, it is still ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;


So, Hamas ( the present Palestinian government of Gaza) is engaged in Genocide, by this definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Hamas is intent on destroying a political entity, not a people. Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world. That's not genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:56 PM

I need some of that for the roses . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

According to the UN what is happening in Darfur is not "Genocide" CarolC - that's official, because if it was official the UN would have to act forcefully to punish and prevent wouldn't they?

Now if what is happening in darfur is not "Genocide", then what is happening in Gaza or the West Bank is definitely not "Genocide".

"Whether the ethnic cleansing is effective or not, it is still ethnic cleansing." - CarolC

Population Statistics:
1950 – 1,203,000 Jews – 1,172,100 Arabs
2005 - 5,275,700 Jews – 5,139,100 Arabs

"Ethnic cleansing" according to those figures CarolC is non-existent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

On the other hand, if the term "genocide" can be used in that way to describe what Hamas has in mind for Israel, then it can also be used to describe what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:00 PM

"Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world."

So, Israel is NOT engaged in genocide, since it does not attack Palestinians in other parts of the world.

Thank you for the clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

Ethnic cleansing is when people of a particular ethnic group are either killed or forced to leave their homes and areas of origin because of belonging to that ethnic group. All of the Palestinians who ended up in refugee camps were ethnically cleansed from their areas of origin. All of the Palestinians whose homes have been bulldozed to make room for Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have been ethnically cleansed. All of the Arab Israelis who have been forced out of their homes and whose land has been confiscated have been ethnically cleansed.

All of the Jewish-only settlements are being built on land that was ethnically cleansed of its indigenous population. These settlement are still expanding, which means that the ethnic cleansing is still ongoing. Eventually, when the settlements have expanded to include all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the ethnic cleansing in that area will be complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM

I have not said that Israel is engaged in genocide. I have said that is has engaged in cultural genocide, but that is a different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

. . . or the petunias.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

When people who are trying to defend the indefensible want to silence opposition, they almost always resort to the use of ridicule. It's all they've got to work with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

Correction: I meant to say ridicule and smear tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

All of the Jews who ended up immigrating to Israel from Arab nations were ethnically cleansed from their areas of origin. All of the Jews whose homes have been taken from them by the Arab League in 1948 ( on the West Bank) to make room for Moslim-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have been ethnically cleansed.

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, (Stated purpose of Hamas, per it's charter) in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group; ( suicide bombs, rockets, morters)
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(ditto)
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (Mass area bombardment by rockets )

Hamas is attempting genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

"Correction: I meant to say ridicule and smear tactics."

But, you merit ridicule for the rewriting of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM

'Cultural genocide' is more like what Canada is apologizing for to the First Peoples of Canada...trying to erase all traces of their culture whilst turning them into anglicized/francasized Canadians.

CarolC, even you cannot believe that Israel is involved in 'cultural genocide,' even if you believe Israel is involved in an actual genocide. Israel is not trying to make Palestinians into Jewish Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

'Cultural genocide'

From 1948 to 1967 please tell me what access Jews had to the Wailing Wall ( holiest site of Judaism)?


From 1967 to present please tell me what access Moslims ( Palestinians in particular) have had to the Dome of the Rock?


Who was trying to commit cultural genocide?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I hope I'm not disturbing anything too much here by going off-thread a bit, but the mention of the evangelicals etc., who are hoping for an armageddon makes me smile (in wry despair, not amusement) - seems to me these groups hope for an armageddon to come to 'cleanse' the world of all its undesireable elements, which never seems to include themselves of course. It reminds me of something I read once (I think in CS Lewis) about how the average High Church of England service-goer enjoys hearing a good hellfire-and-brimstone sermon as he bleieves it'll do his neighbour a world of good to hear it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

"an armageddon to come to 'cleanse' the world of all its undesireable elements, which never seems to include themselves of course"


Too true. it is never the ones hearing the sermon who are in danger, just the "unwashed masses"

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

BBruce: "So, Israel is NOT engaged in genocide, since it does not attack Palestinians in other parts of the world"

Come on, now, you know better than that. Hitler expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from Germany and occupied territories BEFORE the Nazi regime starting murdering thousands of them. You could hardly use that as an argument that he wasn't engaging in genocide, just because he let some go and had no beef with them once they weren't living in the Third Reich.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

Read CarolC's comment- that is what I am replying to. This is her definition:

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Hamas is intent on destroying a political entity, not a people. Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world. That's not genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

By HER standard, Israel is not engaged in genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

I forgot one tribe who were also in South Africa before the Europeans arived - the Lemba, who are Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

Israeli and Zionist leaders have actively suppressed the history of the Palestinian people, many of them even denying their existence altogether. That is a form of cultural genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/lemba.htm


Also...


Approximately 2,500 years ago, a group of Jews left Judea and settled in Yemen. The tribe was led by the house of Buba and we are told that this move was to facilitate trade. In Yemen they settled in a place and built a city called Senna 1. They were then known as the BaSenna (the people from Senna)

When conditions became unfavorable, and not being a historian, I can not give you exact details of what went wrong; but lets just say they could no longer call Yemen home.
The House of Hamisi took over the leadership and led the people across into Africa.
Once in Africa, the tribe split into 2 sections: One group settled in Ethiopia and the other group went further south along the East Coast. They settled in what today is known as Tanzania/ Kenya and built Senna 2. Here they prospered and increased in numbers.
I'm afraid the travel bug bit once again and they were on the move. A small group went and settled in Malawi and Kenya. Their descendants are still residing in these countries up to today and are generally known as Ba Mwenye (lords of the land)
The remaining group, under the leadership of the house of Bakali, moved on and settled in Mozambique. Here they built Senna 3. Even today, the BaSenna are found in Mozambique.

After many years, part of the tribe, now under the leadership of Seremane (which is the house I belong to); moved further south to settle in Chiramba in what is known today as Zimbabwe. They were known as the Ba-Lemba. Our people still live there up to today. Some of the tribe moved south again and eventually settled in South Africa ( Venda, Louis Trichadt, Pietersburg and Tzaneen). This story has been told to all Lemba children from the time they are able to comprehend. It is told so that we know where we come from, who we are and how we live. It is told and shall continue to be told/written so that future generations are not lost never to be found again.
Do I believe this: Oh Yeah! My father told me and, now there is scientific proof for the non believers: The lemba males posses the Priestly Cohanim gene on their Y chromosome (from work done by Jenkins and Spurgle -Wits University)

Old maps of the Holy Land have now revealed that there was a place called Lemba way back BCE

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

If Hamas is committing genocide by the criteria I posted, then by those criteria, so is the government of Israel.


Ridicule isn't necessary if one has a legitimate argument. It is only necessary when one hasn't got a legitimate argument. It is a substitute for a legitimate argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM

If Israel is committing genocide by the criteria I posted, then by those criteria, so is Hamas.


So, either Hamas is commiting genocide, or Israel is NOT.

Both sides have committed "ethnic cleansing" at various times. So did the Hindus and Moslims in Pakistan/India. Blame the British- they are the ones who set the situation up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

It still hasn't struck you that you rewrite history. Look up the word 'monomaniac'. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

BUT rememeber that

1. the Moslims did NOT accept the UN partition that the Jews did

2. The Jews invited the Moslims to stay- the Moslims ordered the Jews to leave.

3. The Palestinains are now asking for about what they would have had in 1948 if they had accepted the Partition.

4. The ARAB MOSLIM Homeland of Transjordan is to the Mandate Palestinian Moslims as Israel is to the Mandate Palestinian Jews- any "right of return is to THAT homeland, NOT to the Jewish Homeland of Israel.