700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'

Subject: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:07 AM

At

http://www.aco.org/daily/soundslides/1/

and at

http://lambethdaily.blogspot.com/2008/07/day-nine-smileand-sing.html

are recordings of the Anglican bishops, (and some others) at their recently-concluded Lambeth meeting, singing New Britain ("Amazing grace") as they wait for their large group to be organized for a group photograph.   They aren't bad.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:22 AM

Not bad at all. Thank you for posting that.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:44 AM

Such a shame they weren't in such harmonious accord during the actual conference and the previous meetings in Jerusalem, where so many are plotting to drag the Anglican Church kicking and screaming back into the 15th Century.

LTS

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM

in recent months there have been lots of comments on radio here (no doubt on TV, too but I don't have a TV) on the actions of Sydney's Archbishop Phillip Jenson, leading light of the Jerusalem conference.

My favourite comment was that he wouldn't leave the Anglican church that he complains so much about, cos he'd lose his title & power base, St Andrew's Cathedral, as it belongs to said Anglican church.

sandra

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:20 AM

"The Bishop of Europe, the Rt Rev Geoffrey Rowell, said he would attend but could not take part in a Eucharist service held by the female head of the Episcopal Church of the USA, the Most Rev Katharine Jefferts Schori"

...Katherine's our bishop! So, there are folks holding the line.

So, there are high-profile defections to the Catholic Church, but plenty like me raised Catholic, who ended up on Episcopal doorsteps because there are women on the altar, as well as men. To say nothing of the sanity of both sexes being allowed to marry and love, if that's what God intended for them to do, as well as serve in the church.

Dani

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:40 AM

Sorry, that was me : )

Dani

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 09:42 AM

'.. singing New Britain ("Amazing grace") as they wait for their large group to be organized for a group photograph.'

I had to have a listen, to see what the bishops of this very musical church would accomplish.

It is quite good for such a large group, although I believe it would have been better in a slightly higher key. The low notes are rather gravelly.

You can hear traces of harmony. Somebody knows something about singing, that's clear.

I wonder how they knew all the words. How many people know all those verses by heart?

Finally, I'm a people-watcher, and I enjoyed studying all those faces while listening.

Thanks for posting, T in Oklahoma.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM

It would make a lot of sense for the conservative antifeminist/homophobe faction of the Anglican Church to defect to Rome. Pope Benedict et al would be glad to welcome them, I'm sure, and it would be nothing more thsn a fair exchange for the significant numbers of former Roman Catholics who have become Anglican/Episcopal for various reasons.

There's at least one huge roadblock, however: this could only happen if and when Rome allows heterosexual male priests to marry.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: the button
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

PoppaGator -- if a minister of another church is already married when he goes over to Rome, he can still become a catholic priest. The catholic parish priest in Beverley is (or was, last time I visited)an ex-methodist minister, married & with 2 kids.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

I should have known that, the button.

I suppose that being "conservative" in any sense would make a person reluctant to change religions, for whatever reason.

By the way, it should be no surprise that those bishops are able to sing. Priests have to learn to sing as part of the liturgy, whether they're much good at it or not; those with little talent and no previous experience become at least tolerably competant, and those who start off as decent singers become pretty good. And bishops, of course, are priests for quite a while before ascending to higher office.

That's true in the Catholic church as well as for "high church" or "Anglo-Catholic" Anglicans, which is the extent of my personal experience. I realize that there are other variants of Anglical/Episcopal liturgical style which probably require less vocalizing; I don't really known much about them. But at least a little bit of singing must be required, no?

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

Oh! So do you think that in addition to requiring young men to be devout, celibate, obedient, poor and straight, they are required to be able to carry a tune?!

With all due respect to the many, many fine priests and Catholics of the world, that sounds to me like a shrinking population, for sure : )

If I'm not mistaken, in the group photo that's Katharine Jefferts Schori front and center. I would LOVE to know whose idea it was to put her there!

Dani (truly NOT a bitter ex-Catholic, or indeed a feminist, but I do like a level playing field)

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

Yeah, the Powers That Be in Rome have welcomed Protestants who want to leave their liberalizing denominations, and defecting Protestant ministers are often ordained Catholic priests - even if they're married. These newcomers are typically far more conservative, antifeminist, and homophobic than mainstream Catholics.

There's even talk of an Anglican Rite within the Roman Church.

---

But back to singing: I was in a Catholic seminary in Milwaukee for eight years, and we sang all the time, in and out of church. We sang menus, folk songs, rock'n'roll songs, and Englebert Humperdinck. And at Mass, everybody sang - and the music was always wonderful.

My Irish pastor insists he isn't much of a singer, but I often catch him singing Irish rebel songs. When I bought a car from him, we sang as we drove home from the DMV.

So, yeah, singing is a thing the clergy pick up in the seminary, and it stays with them all their lives. Oh, and the "devout" seminarians were usually thought to be a bit weird. The ones who were respected by their classmates had a lot more humor and earthiness, and tended to be just a bit irreverent.

-Joe, who knows all the verses and several harmonies and parody verses for "Amazing Grace"-

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:52 PM

The Catholic Church gave "refuge" to many priests who felt unable to continue in the Anglican Church when women priests were sanctioned in the early 1990s. These priests, if married, could remain so, and be given altars in Catholic churches. If an unmarried priest wished to take up the offer, they had to remain unmarried. However, a divorced priest could no longer remain in Holy Orders as a Catholic. Gay priests appear to have been accepted as long as they remain celibate.

Many parishes across Britain chose to exclude women priests from their staff and became known as 'Forward in Faith' parishes. They refuse to acknowledge women priests and will not celebrate with a bishop who ordains women. They knowingly and apparently quite happily accepted gay priests in their number.

The next logical step would be to ordain women priests as bishops - something that happened in New Zealand at least 15 years ago - but an 'Ecclesiastical Glass Ceiling' is preventing this from happening.

To raise such a rumpus over the ordination of gay men seems to be a treacherous double standard that will have the Catholic and Anglican Churches dragged back into the Inquisition.

LTS

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

The requirement for priests to sing is nothing new, Dani. And it is necessary not only to carry a tune, but I think you're also even expected to have "perfect pitch." i.e., to sing the right note with no reference (without hearing an accompanying intrument or even a pitchpipe).

When I was a fourth- and fifth grader in Catholic elementary school, I sang in what was called the "chancel choir." We sat semi-hidden behind the altar and sang/chanted the prescribed Latin phrases in response to the priest's part.

There were four, and even sometimes five, priests working at our parish. (Times have sure changed!) Some were more musically talented than others, but even the best among them couldn't avoid being shown up by our choir director, Sister Anne Eucharia.

The poor priest would have to pull a note out of the air to start singing, for example "Dominus vobiscum" (six syllables, all on the same note). The appropriate reposnse would be for us choristers to hit the same note to sing the response, "Et cum spiritu tuo." But Sr. Anne would put her pitchpipe to her lips and blow the note that was supposed to be sung, and we'd be required to sing on that note, so we'd wind up singing our responses in a different key from the priest.

This was especially noticeable and embarrassing at the Preface and maybe another part or two of the Mass where a sequence of short phrases would go back and forth multiple times. The more musically savvy priests would adjust and quickly get themselves into Sister's key, but one guy in particular wasn't able to do so and just got more and more flustered and off-key with each back-and-forth sequence.

I never understood why she wouldn't just let us sing the same note as the priest, which would have been easy enough for me. I've since learned that not everyone understands music, and sings, the same way. Some folks can pull an "A," for example, out of thin air and sing it perfectly on-pitch, but can't do any kind of singing that requires the least bit of improvisation or imagination. Maybe some of the other boys would not have been able to find the right note to sing along with the priests ~ or maybe Sister herself lacked that kind of ability. Who knows...

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 06:11 PM

I dcon't think any church, however conservative, has ever had a problem ordaining gay men as long as they profess to remain celibate. If you're not having any sex at all, it shouldn't make any difference what kind of sex you're not having, right?

As far as I know, it has always been unspoken, but I believe that there's a long Catholic tradition that, if a young man is not attracted to women, it's a sign that he "has a vocation," i.e., is marked for the religious life. Also, especially in earlier times when sexuality was generally more restricted than in today's society, a devout person who felt "inappropiate" urges and desires would want to squelch them (if only to avoid burning in hell at some later time), and would see the priesthood as a way of life that would support him is his effort to avoid sin.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 09:28 PM

I'm sure you're absolutely right, PoppaGator. Even at a very tender age those 'unspoken' things were pretty clear if you were perceptive.

How very sad.

Dani

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 09:49 PM

one of my ex-Catholic friends used to tell us about his First Communion - being 7 he couldn't think of any sins to confess, but had to say something, & all he could think of was that strange phrase that the Priest harped on, "impure thoughts" so without knowing what impure thoughts were, he confessed to this sin.

Naturally in later years he certainly knew 'em! And often acted on 'em, too.

sandra

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:10 AM

Why is it that 700 priests don't inspire me, yet one little old lady did?

The 'Real' Amazing Grace


Maybe it was because she didn't need fancy outfits, didn't go for pomp and circumstance, didn't need fancy churches, filled with riches and regulations. Maybe it was because she just went out there and made a difference, in her own quiet way. Maybe it was because she battled so painfully with her faith, yet never gave up helping those who needed her so very badly.

I suppose there are two types of 'socialising'.....

One is done over a glass of wine and canapes in some designated 'important place'...and the other is done in the streets of Calcutta, holding the dying in your arms, where a very different form of 'meeting and coming together' takes place.

I think those 700 'priests' should be singing the song the little old lady left behind for us all. But to be able to sing that, they need to see the world through her eyes, and feel it with her heart.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:56 AM

"...there are women on the altar, as well as men." Dani

Thanks for a new thought for me, Dani. I don't know if "on" the altar was a typo or if it is meant metaphorically as "lain on the altar as a sacrifice" but as a person not reared in a mainstream way, "altar" had never had that connotation to me.

Subject: RE: 700 bishops sing 'Amazing grace'
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM

: ) Ebbie!

I meant AT the altar, celebrating Mass. Definitely NOT Catholic, but more and more common in the Episcopal Church.

Dani