'5000 Morris Dancers'

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

On another thread (arguably misplaced above the line), TheSnail wrote:

I will do everything I can (and as I reported above, already have) to keep English nationalism out of English folk music.

I'll sign up to that.

I actually have a certain amount of time for English nationalism, when that's understood as the democratic and inclusive nationalism of a polyglot multi-ethnic nation with a long and glorious history of cultural mongrelisation. Needless to say, this means that I have no time whatsoever for David's reactionary fantasies of racial and cultural purity. But, more importantly, I believe that English folk music deserves to thrive for its own sake: singing, playing and passing along the music of the traditions of these islands is a worthy goal in its own right, as well as being some of the best fun you can have with your clothes on. Yoking the music to any political agenda not only does it a disservice here and now but makes it less likely that it'll survive - all the more so when the agenda in question stinks as badly as David's.

So, let it be said. I will do everything I can to keep English nationalism out of English folk music.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

IB - I was aware of what you just posted...I did a lot of reading, during my first year of folk, before the recorder/English flute became my main instrument of choice (keys also).
Pip - I obviousy get quite a lot of criticism here, but at least most don't put words in my mouth the way you do, and just did again:
I have NEVER said "racial purity"; and, on nationalism, I've repeatedly said this - "nationalism with conquest IS bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via the UN) is good for humanity" (here, e.g.).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

"I did a lot of reading, during my first year of folk,"

Given the skewed conclusions you've leapt to, I'd be very interested to know which books you ploughed through. Bibliography?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM

Not me this time WAV

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

It "doesn't scan" with the rest of it left out, Ruth/Joan, but I meant reading on instruments, before choosing the recorder/English flute: several websites, "The Guinness Book of Music"; the chapter on music in a Webster's encyclopedia, another encyclopedia of instruments from Newcastle library, etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

most don't put words in my mouth the way you do, and just did again:

No, I didn't. I'm perfectly well aware that you've never said "I believe in racial and cultural purity", and I didn't suggest that you have. However, it's obvious that you do believe in racial and cultural purity - how else can you explain your references to England being 'more English' fifty years ago (before all that 'mass immigration') or your comments about the problems of having more than one culture under one state law?

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with music, and long may the two remain separate. Speaking for myself, I will do everything I can to keep English nationalism out of English folk music.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

Not me either, Waveydavey.

So, did you actually read any books on folk music? On the folk revival? On anything to do with your chosen topic? There are thousands about, and many are easily accessible through things like inter-library loan.

I presume that when you wrote essays for your BA in humanities, you would have chosen texts specific to your topic, and not used generalist encyclopedias as your only references. So where's all your folk-based study, given that this was an "intensive 4-year period"?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

It "doesn't scan" with the rest of it left out, Ruth/Joan, but I meant reading on instruments, before choosing the recorder/English flute: several websites, "The Guinness Book of Music"; the chapter on music in a Webster's encyclopedia, another encyclopedia of instruments from Newcastle library, etc.

Incredibly SHALLOW sources. Wav, I don't have any formal education yet, but if I were your professor, I would flunk you for poor academic skills. Mind you, we all know your aversion to in-depth studies, makes it harder to make vague, sweeping anouncements. Details do so get in the way.

Here's a question, does imperialism for you mean imposing one's culture and set of ideas on someone else?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

We could get the EFDSS to set an exam for us both to sit, Ruth..? Even with your home-town advantage, you may get a surprise. Either way, I do hope to visit CSH one day.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

Oh the pompousness, oh the pretenstiousness, poor tempores and mores.
Are you seriously suggesting that you know more about folk music because you have read some general music encyclopedias, watched some beeb and listened to 'Voices' that you know more than someone who has been part of the scene for years and works at THE largest center in Britain for the study and promotion of folk music?

Here's a question, does imperialism for you mean imposing one's culture and set of ideas on someone else?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:35 PM

"...that particular English flute doesn't really cut-through hte sic ensemble."

It's not supposed to "cut-through," David, it's supposed to blend. Essentially, it is a duet between the tenor recorder and the viola da gamba, backed by the other instruments.

It is not supposed to dominatel the ensemble. Despite it's being an "English flute."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:38 PM

"dominate," that is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:57 PM

Honestly, Volgadon, I know hardly anything compared to somebody like Don Firth, or Insane Beard, or my partner, who has, as I've said before, forgotten more than I'll ever know about English folk music. I don't actually work at CSH, I'm on the national council (which is the governing body) because I thought I had some practical skills and experience to offer.

The difference between me and the Wavey One is that I'm well aware of my limitations, and of how lucky I am to have such knowledgeable people around me. But I do have a nice collection of books (which I've actually read) that are specific to the history of English folk music and dance (and some on American folk, too), and I have my partner's vast folk library at my disposal, which I make use of regularly. Not to mention a substantial CD collection which includes the entire Voice of the People series.

So in short, Wavey, I'd wipe the floor with you in such a competition. But that's not because I'm particularly knowledgeable, it's because of the staggering depth of your ignorance, which you demonstrate here with every post.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Guys, why are you feeding the ego of this ludicrous poseur? Surely one glance at his poetry should tell you that he's got Van Gogh's ear for scansion, while his postings reveal a narrow-mindedness that is breathtaking. Almosst as breathtaking as his thick skin.
So stop supporting his onanism and stop posting.
Remember, every time you post, WAV loses another rod or cone from his retina and another hair grows on his palm...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

I think Ruth that I share your regard for the skills and knowledge of so many on this forum. More than anything else it is WAV's ignorance of the level of education and expertise that he dismisses out of hand that is so bloody rude

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:42 AM

IB - I was aware of what you just posted...I did a lot of reading, during my first year of folk

Bollocks, WAV - if you were aware of it, you wouldn't hold such ludicrous opinions, let alone demonstrate so consistently just how little you're aware of anything. So how much reading did actually you do in your first year of folk? How much have you done since? Not a fat lot evidently since you're still blogging the same tired old conclusions you reached in you folk year zero, viz:

(ORIGINAL) MESSAGE EMAILED-OUT DURING 2005

To many online folkies:

Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national. Our forebears were loyal to this when they formed the English Folk Dance and Song Society, as have been contemporary Scots by forming a Degree in Scottish Traditional Music. Furthermore, I'm told several of our earliest folk-clubs strongly encouraged participants to select from their own culture.

My usual and only complaint with our present English-folk scene is the lack of loyalty to our own good tradition. There are more than enough good English songs, tunes and dances (plus instruments) for anyone's lifetime – let's appreciate others but perform our own!

More broadly: nationalism with conquest is bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via the U.N.) is good for humanity.

Yours Faithfully,

David Franks

This from your latest myspace blog update. No new insights, no fresh appraisals, no evidence of any learning, just the same old rhetoric, year in, year out, stuck in the rut of your relentless ignorance on every last fucking thing you claim to hold sacred.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:09 AM

Back to the 5000 Morris Dancers - I hear the Morris Federation and the Ring are stock piling bells. Are they trying to corner the market before the Olympic organisers realise they need bells for their 5000 dancers? Or do they know that Gordon Brown is to declare that bells instead of pounds sterling is to be our new currency in a last ditch attempt to resolve the current financial crisis?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

Are we going to have Morris Dancers of different types, or all of one type? I cant join in if it becomes processional I'm afraid. Maybe we should divide the country into independent socio-economical entities based on local dance tradition.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:29 PM

Waltzing Matilda is a classic example of cultural cross-pollination

Off-thread, but apparently Banjo Patterson was staying with one of my (English) partner's (Australian) ancestors when he wrote Waltzing Matilda. She gave him the (probably English) tune he set the words to.

At least that's the family legend...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

Hate to perhaps whizz on the family legend but Click Here for a wonderful old thread on "Waltzing Matilda".......Also check the other threads at the top of it for additional info and also be sure to view the page linked by Joe Offer in about the third or fourth post.

On the 'Cat there is no such thing as off post since most threads go off the main topic right away!

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:11 PM

Thanks for the link 'Spaw - which confirms the family legend, as it is indeed Christina Macpherson who is referred to when the tale is told....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:20 PM

WOW!!! Now that's great. I wish I had a dime for every "Famous relative/historical relative" type thing that I've heard over the years which have turned out to be pure hogwash. So its good when one comes in right.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM

IB - that was info. on the recorder that I DID know of, from the reading I did before finally making it my instrument of choice.
And on that myspace blog, I do indeed keep that original message there, and vary the "MONTHLY MESSAGE".
"Back to the 5000 Morris Dancers - I hear the Morris Federation and the Ring are stock piling bells. Are they trying to corner the market before the Olympic organisers realise they need bells for their 5000 dancers? Or do they know that Gordon Brown is to declare that bells instead of pounds sterling is to be our new currency in a last ditch attempt to resolve the current financial crisis?" (Neova)...well, one thing from IB that WAS new to me, Neova, is that, according to Wiki., England's National Musical Instrumnet is the bell (see thread above, of same name).
Joseph - I heard, and mentioned above, that different ceremonial venues around London are planned for: so hopefully that will give a guernsey to more than one form of Morris.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:18 AM

The bell is is not a national instrument, but ringing changes on tuned Church bells emerged in England, although you can now hear change ringing around the world. A trip to Whitechapel Bell Foundry is worth it to anyone interested in bells and that sort of thing. I wouldnt want to dance with a church bell strapped round my ankle though, and I dont think the church bell would make a very good accompaniament to folk songs, would it?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

Oh I dunno' about that Joseph......Have you heard Wavy sing? A church bell might just drown out the bellering and off-key sound of his voice.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:28 AM

"Back to the 5000 Morris Dancers - I hear the Morris Federation and the Ring are stock piling bells. Are they trying to corner the market before the Olympic organisers realise they need bells for their 5000 dancers? Or do they know that Gordon Brown is to declare that bells instead of pounds sterling is to be our new currency in a last ditch attempt to resolve the current financial crisis?"

As the values of stocks, shares and most other investments are likely to fall considerably over the next year or so, MoneyMan recommends moving a substantial part of your portfolio into bells. Their price has stabilised and the ongoing requirement for them by Morris dancers indicates strong future demand without the likelihood of major fluctuations as seen in the gold market.

Please be aware that the value of your investment in bells can go down as well as up and you may end up with insufficient quantities for your Morris side.

For further guidance, refer to the latest MoneyMan investment guide: "How to make a Killing in Bells". Available from all good bookstores, £25. (Part exchange with a playable pokerwork box considered).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

That's a ringing endorsement there melodeonboy, if you don't mind my chiming in.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

Joseph P and Spaw - I've thought about the bell lyre...but it does seem a tad angelic for folk songs.
...And boy O boy, spare bells attached to melodeons may even appeel to some!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

"No new insights, no fresh appraisals, no evidence of any learning, just the same old rhetoric, year in, year out, stuck in the rut of your relentless ignorance on every last fucking thing you claim to hold sacred."

You know, IB, I'm reminded of a story I once heard:

A man sits in his music room playing the cello. That is, he presses a string down on the fingerboard and holds it there, then saws back and forth with the bow. His left hand never moves. He keeps playing the same note. For hours. In fact, he has been playing this one note now for years. Needless to say, as he does this, for many hours every day, his wife busies herself in other parts of the house (lest she just plain loses it and brains him with a piece of heavy crockery!).

One day, a friend invites them to a symphony concert. He declines, saying that he has to stay home and play the cello. She, having never been to such a concert, accepts.

Later that night, she returns home and goes to her husband's studio, where he is still sawing away relentlessly on his one note.

"David," she said (calling him David because that was his name), "you should have come to the concert! They played a lot of music, but the featured artist was the famous cello virtuoso, Yo Yo Ma! They did a Haydn cello concerto, and he was moving his left hand all over the neck of the cello! His fingers were flying! He was playing all kinds of differnt notes! It was beautiful! Why don't you play like that? Like Yo Yo Ma? Why do you just keep playing that—one [grits teeth to avoid using the obscene adjective she has in mind] note—over and over . . . and over . . . [struggles to regain control as she verges on hysteria] . . . all the time!??"

Still sawing away on his one note, David looks up at his wife and says, "He's looking for it. I've found it!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

On that note, Don, probably D, I'm off to bed...where I won't be counting sheep or visualizing and sequence of noteS!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

D. Good note. I use it myself.

Among others.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:29 PM

Odd....I thought Walkydilly sang in H flat..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

H for Haha - and, for what is's worth, I got enough ZZZs last night.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 11:49 AM

Why do you keep capitalising the 's' on notes?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM

Volgadon - did you get enough ZZZs?...Don's comical story was about someone who only played the one note.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

You see, Wav, were you to write 'where I won't be counting sheep or visualizing a sequence of note!' then I would assume that there was something special about the sequence.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM

Where has all the great poetry gone?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM

Young girls picked them everyone.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

"You see, Wav, were you to write 'where I won't be counting sheep or visualizing a sequence of note!' then I would assume that there was something special about the sequence" (Volgadon)...I won't be visualizing the sequence of notes that form the Morris tune "English Country Gardens" - I just remember the first note C', and the key C, and hope for the best.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

I was not talking about English Country Gardens, I was talking about grammar, thankee.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

...eeek!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:33 AM

Having done 'Bedes World' you could try here http://www.ukrides.info/gw.htm next!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM

No - not my glass of Lindisfarne mead, Mr Happy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Master Baiter
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:19 PM

I found the following article, a letter to a parliamentary official, about "Sir Alf R." who I assume to be ?????? Perhaps catspaw49 wasn't kidding about the dog molesting as you see. Locations and date make it probable. Surprises me that more wasn't made of it at the time.







Dear Lord Richland:

        I am a board certified criminal prosecutor In Ipswich with over 12 years experience and approximately 150 trials to my credit. I write in support of Rule of Law #744 and in order to advocate for the necessity of this new law, I will start briefly by explaining one such case I have handled recently in this jurisdiction.



        In late 1964, I prosecuted the case of QB v. Sir Alf R., Circuit Case Number 2005-CF-3027. Sir R. had been charged by law enforcement with Felony Animal Cruelty, though the charge if available should have been Bestiality or Sexual Activity Involving an Animal. I will not go into the disgusting facts of the case other than to say Sir Alf R. was having sexual relations with his male dog, an English Cocker Spaniel. The complainant in the case called the police when she observed Sir R. fondling the dog. I will leave off further discussion by simply stating that in subsequent discussions with law enforcement, Sir Alf R. spoke freely about his regular sexual activities with his dog and said he would take the dog for a walk prior to sex to "prevent fecal impact." I have attached a copy of the probable cause (with the complainant's name omitted) so the facts can speak for themselves. As you can see, law enforcement incorrectly advised Sir Alf R. that they were investigating bestiality and that "it was a felony crime."



        We did our best to pursue the case on the charge of Animal Cruelty but this charge was not the best vehicle to properly address the crimes of nature committed by this Defendant. On the charge of Felony Animal Cruelty, the prosecution is required to prove a defendant intentionally committed an act against an animal which resulted in the cruel death or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering. For Misdemeanor Animal Cruelty, the prosecution must show the person has caused the animal to be overworked, deprived of sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, kills or carries any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner. I can easily envision such a case of Bestiality being charged as Animal Cruelty before the trier of fact, be it a judge or a jury, and the Defense expert veterinarian testifying that although he finds "the Defendant's behavior shocking and disgusting, the animal was unharmed and otherwise well cared for." If such a case ever made it to trial, the resulting acquittal would be an easy lesson for the prosecutor to learn.



        Other than the tenuous charge of Animal Cruelty, the only other means of addressing this crime of nature would be as a questionable misdemeanor offense under Stat. Section 755.01 which adopts the Common Law of England. Like most civilized nations, our legal forbearers understandably saw fit to address bestiality in the criminal courts. If this theory of the law were pursued, prosecutors would be left to attempt to utilize ancient English Law to address this criminal conduct. Such a prosecutor would clearly have an uphill battle. Although case law provides for application of the Common Law of England in some situations, I can envision much mention of our Declaration of Independence and the fact that "we make our own laws here" during pretrial motion arguments. A resulting dismissal of the charges would be understandable under this scenario.



        What we often hear in the legal realm is that "if the Parliament wanted something to be a crime then they would have passed a law against it." Litigants can rarely argue that the failure to pass a law was merely a timing or funding issue or that it would have been passed if we did not have financial troubles. If the Parliament does anything, it should use a small portion of its time to pass one of the most unanimously uncontested laws in recent history. There cannot possibly be any rational opponent of this bill.



        It is unseemly that a person can knowingly sexually violate any animal of their choice and this does not, by itself, seem to be against the law without some type of creative and possibly tenuous prosecution. The most important consideration for the Committee to address, however, is the impact this crime of nature could have on humans.



        The clear status of our law at this point is that Parliament has not prohibited bestiality. Bestiality is currently legal. As shocking as this is for the public to learn when such cases come to light, it would be even more shocking for the public to discover that a proposed bill was actually before this PArliamentary Justice Committee and the Committee failed to take any action to move this forward.   Acting on such an uncontested issue should use minimal time and resources compared to the many other issues that remain contested or debatable before you.



                                                                Respectfully,

                                                                Michael J. Bauer

       Ipswich Solicitor

       December, 1966

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

Don't understand it but it would make a fine poem

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM

LMAO MB.....I don't know where you got that but I may have been more right than I knew when I was joking about Ramsey.


Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM

Don't know what he thinks of Morris dancing, but Clive Woodward, who gave our Olympic athletes, as well as our WC winning rugby players, motivational talks, admires Alf Ramsey.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

800

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:44 PM

800.
And what a pile of bollocks to stroke the ego of an imbecile.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

Bugger - too late!
Never mind, I'm sure WAV can keep wanking on long enough for me to bag the 1000.