BS: How to destroy America

Subject: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:01 PM

"Make the money worthless" (Osama Bin Laden)

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:23 PM

Oh, that would do it, all right. But who needs Osama? America can do it without any outside help, just by teaching its entire population to live according to the "buy now, pay later" philosophy, and giving them all lots of easy credit to financially hang themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:16 AM

"The great money trick"...From "The ragged trousered philanthropists" by Robert Tressel......................Ake

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:56 AM

Kendall's proposed candidate - doesn't work - money merely gets replaced in some other form.

Little Hawk's contribution while it may hold good for the simple-minded and the feckless would make no real impression - what Little Hawk and apparently quite a few posters on this forum make a mistake in doing is underestimating people in general - they largely consist of people with more than enough commonsense and a sense of responsibility and prudence - they're not as easily parted from their money, nor as easily led, as you all seem to think.

By the bye the "buy now, pay later" philosophy enabled the birth of the Netherlands as it caused the defeat of their Spanish rulers (THE Super Power in Europe at that time) and also brought into being the British Empire after William of Orange and his advisers introduced the concept to England in 1688.

Akenaton's referenced book advocates a socialist society in which work is performed to satisfy the needs of all rather than to generate profit for a few. "The Great Money Trick", in which Owen (character in the book) organises a mock-up of capitalism with his workmates, using slices of bread as raw materials and knives as machinery. Owen 'employs' his workmates cutting up the bread to illustrate that the employer - who does not work - generates personal wealth whilst the workers effectively remain no better off than when they began, endlessly swapping coins back and forth for food and wages. This is Tressell's practical way of illustrating the Marxist theory of surplus value, which in the capitalist system is generated by labour.

Seriously flawed of course as Owen's start point had everything already in place, which in real life would not occur and would never occur under a "socialist" system/society based on the principle of satisfying the needs of all.

My question to you Kendall is with the title - Why would anybody want to "destroy America"??

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 04:14 AM

Why indeed? Who is proposing that we should?

Supposing Kendall had started a thread called:

How to destroy the ozone layer

or

How to destroy the oceans


Would you have made the same kind of defensive assumption that this meant he wanted to see the ozone layer or the oceans destroyed? ;-)

Or would a more sensible reaction be that he was pointing out a possible danger to America, the ozone layer, or the oceans? Kendall lives in America, so I think he's probably a bit worried about possible dangers to his society such as a financial collapse.

The present financial crisis is happening precisely because a great many people used credit foolishly and bought things they couldn't afford, and because collosal amounts of American money have been wasted on efforts that produce no useful return: two foreign wars.

China, in the meantime has been doing business. So has India. They've been doing things that do produce a useful return.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:24 AM

Title of Thread Little Hawk - "How to destroy America" - Yes?

Thread opened by kendall - Yes?

Content of kendall's opening post - what he think's is a credible way in which that end (i.e. America's destruction) can be achieved.

Where are kendall's counter arguements to dismiss OBL's contention? Not to be seen

Where are kendall's suggested counter-measures to prevent such an occurrance from destroying America? - None in evidence - True?

Title of Thread + suggested means. Note all following responses apart from mine followed kendall's lead.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:09 AM

"My question to you Kendall is with the title - Why would anybody want to "destroy America"?? "

No Teribus,

Kendall merely reminded us of an Osama Bin Laden quote.

Osama Bin Laden has vowed to destroy America.

America is going through an economic crisis.

The quote shows that Bin Laden considers undermining the US economy to be an essential factor in destroying America.

Kendall is clearly, and concisely, making an interesting observation.

It is of course of negligable likelihood, but it is an amusing possibility.

Akenaton and Little Hawk clearly have the imagination to enjoy it in a lighthearted fun way, as it was intended.

I bet you never get invited to parties.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM

My question stands Guest lox, Kendall et all - Why would anybody want to "destroy America"?? That has after all been raised? but as yet has remained unanswered.

One point though, it is not OBL or any action of his that is supposedly undermining the US economy is it Guest lox? So why would anybody else wish to destroy America?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 07:45 AM

"Why would anybody want to "destroy America""

Much the same question would have been asked about The Roman Empire. But in spite of whether anybody at the time had any opinions about the matter at the time, it still fell...

You are privileged to be living in special times, as The US Empire begins to crumble: take notes for your memoirs, and your grandchildren, if you will be lucky enough to have any survive...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:16 AM

Teribus, I never thought I'd have to explain this to you. I was quoting Osama Bin Laden. That's what he told his followers. He knows he can never beat us on the battle field. Ok, Now,

He wants to destroy us because we have invaded his part of the world. We pose a serious threat to his way of life. We are the great Satan to the radical Muslims.We have stationed infidel troops on their holy ground.We support his mortal enemy, Israel.
He told us some time ago why they hate us, but do we listen? Hell no! we listen to the chief Moron who tries to tell us that they hate us because we are free! Why do we listen to Bush when the real reason is coming straight from the mouth of the man himself?

Now, another idiot is speaking. McWar says O'Bama hasn't had enough experience with only 2 years in the Senate, yet his latest crock of shit says this financial crisis is all Obama's fault! Why would anyone with an IQ over 60 listen to him either?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:26 AM

Teribus wants to argue. He doesn't like most of the people at Mudcat so he comes over here to get himself worked up on the various threads he can characterise is "liberal" or that are started by the individuals he doesn't like or respect. If anyone else says "yes" it is programmed into his brain to respond "no!" and start swinging.

He deserves no response whatsoever, in my opinion. Carry on with the discussion as if he hadn't butted in and tried to turn the whole thing into a slug fest.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

I've never been one to back away from a fight. I've never started one, but I've finished a few.

Also, I've never learned anything from someone with whom I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:48 AM

Kendall says that - "I was quoting Osama Bin Laden. That's what he told his followers. He knows he can never beat us on the battle field. Ok, Now,"

Simple question on that kendall. If OBL, "...knows he can never beat us on the battle field.", why the hell is he trying to do it and why is he encouraging others to sacrifice themselves in this cause that he knows is lost, while he sits back fat dumb and happy in his cave somewhere along the Afghan/Pakistan border??

OBL's reasons for hatred of the USA as detailed by kendall:

1. "He wants to destroy us because we have invaded his part of the world."

Now when exactly was this? Could it possibly have been when the UN moved to eject Saddam Hussein's forces from Kuwait? Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that having taken Kuwait, Saddam Hussein also threatened Saudi Arabia if it supported any move to liberate Kuwait? Could it have anything to do with the Saudi's unwillingness to put their security and that of Kuwait's in the hands of the Quartermaster-General of the by then defunct Mujahadeen and his rag-tag army of part-timers who could only offer guerilla warfare at the end of which the saviours would take over the Kingdom of Saud? Fortunately for the world in general the Saudi's relied on the UN and the US led coalition in 1990 and not in OBL - That is why OBL is ticked off - Nothing else, they all drift in and out as convenience dictates.

2. "We pose a serious threat to his way of life."

Now what is OBL's "way of life" kendall? You mean radical islam and it's promotion of ignorance and intolerance? If so then every right thinking person on this planet irrespective of race, colour or creed should pose a serious threat to "his way of life", which, oddly enough, is completely abhorrent to the majority of Muslims living peacefully throughout the world.

3. "We are the great Satan to the radical Muslims."

And this somehow is a bad thing?? So we damn well should be, if radical islam supports some of the instances reported. Anyone who has any respect whatsoever for human life and rights cannot have any common ground at all with these hypocritical hate-mongers.

4. "We have stationed infidel troops on their holy ground."

At the request of the Guardians of the holiest places in Islam and as authorised by United nations Security Council Mandate

5. "We support his mortal enemy, Israel."

Care to tell us how Israel is OBL's mortal enemy kendall? The UN supports Israel kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

' I've never learned anything from someone with whom I agree.'

that can't be right. can it?

Doc Watson might say, I'm a pretty good guitar picker. And even though you agree with him - you don't learn anything from him, you never learn anything from someone you agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

Kendall,

I dragged myself upstairs to write some thoughts this morning only to find that you and others are keenly aware of the irony of the war on terrorism and the financial target of the original attack 7 years ago. Ossama's insight into the american greed machines that are deeply intrenched in a political system that panders to religion and propoganda to sanctify every possible theft and fraud, rings true louder everyday.

Spending into a hole was a standard means of having one less dollar for the democratic party to spend on families rather than only business. Combine that wasteful spending with war of unbelievable unecessary cost and the bin Laden strategy is victorious.

7 years ago I started a thread titled 'US loses the war' because of my fear that the republican mindset would fall into the very hole Ossama pointed to.

We are in that hole.

We are now digging deeper.

Mega social engineering with the use of financial weapons aside, I had hoped we would be smarter than that but as evidenced by my loyal republican neighbors they would rather hurt Americans than ever suspect they could be wrong about their loyalties to politics that is so sickenly twisted around their religion and misplace urge for vengence.



FOX asks is it patriotic for the wealthy to pay taxes?
I would ask was it patriotic for the wealthy to steal from the last sanctuary of American's hope for the future, which was their homes.

They could have stopped all the forclosures simply by saying we will not double and triple the ARM / mortgage payments, but they were too greedy to do that. They knew the idea of being too big to fail would give them one last sky high wind fall.


Wall Street neo accountents who were actually called Rocket Scientists for their ability to make opaque investment schemes that were impenetrable to investors was the high technology of Wall Street. But I digress,,,

They have one, bin Laden has partly won and the middle class of America is set back for THIRTY YEARS which is enough time to sideline the next two generations to the whims of capitalized wealthy to do with us as they want.


game over...for about 25 to 30 years.


Even if Barack wins, all his agendas are subserviant to building a ladder to just climb out of the crater created by
the wealthy who understand the benefits of think tanks and mediocre politicians whose silence is cheaply bought.

Even if you tried to revilt or demonstrate, the new laws would make you a terrorist or worse, an enemy combatent.

Nothing less than your enslavement was the goal and it has been masterfuly carried out with all the stupid fall guys in place to take the blame in the eyes of the "average american"

PS I believe that 9 out of 10 people on this forum are not the average americans in the sense of the blind loyalists I refer to.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM

2004 Bin Laden said t"he way to destroy America is to bankrupt their country", appealing to their greed and need to spend instead of understanding will be their fatal flaw.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:08 AM

Yes Donuel I agree.

How would it be if Bin Laden was the second coming of Christ?
Would we reject him?...Would we become his disciples?
Are there any similarities?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

"They don't hate us because of our freedom; they hate us because of our air strikes"
(Maher)

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:22 AM

Fortunately, having practiced 6 of the relgions of this planet I have determined that their claims are completly without merit with the exception of those whose strong and ongoing saftey net for the people who suffer the oppression of natural and man made
disasters.

Ossama is no more a messiah than Rush Limgaugh, Bill O'Reilly, John Stewart, Bill Mahre or George Bush.

Hero worship or messiah worship can lead to very expensive membership dues and eventual betrayal of your inate talents and values.

Best to think for yourself and obey the golden rule ake.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:25 AM

The one EVIL REGULATION
that Wall Street Bank owners find most repugnant, disgusting, destructive, horrendous, vile and unfair is
the golden rule.


(cartoon preview)

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

Anyone with eyes that are connected to a brain knows and understands what I wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

Are we being told by a certain person in this thread that there is nobody in the world who wants to destroy America?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:19 PM

The way to do this is to continue to devalue education, intelligence, compassion based on social understanding, the principles of the Enlightenment by calling all of the people who subscribe to these ideas as "elitist" and create the office of a dumbed-down redneck president who doesn't have to know anything but you can have a beer with him.

You can invite him to your next Bah-bee-quew and he'll show up if not in the flesh but
in spirit.

You want to destroy what the Founding Fathers had in mind for this country? Ban books.
Teach Creationism in Science classes. Deny Global Warming by setting up a cadre of phony scientists. Defund public education. Let education only be made available for wealthy people to propagate their misinformation in private schools and universities and politicize teaching so that it conforms to a standard of right-wing extremism and biblically accepted information.

osama doesn't have a clue about this. He belongs to the above.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

"My question to you Kendall is with the title - Why would anybody want to "destroy America"??

The answer is simple. Ignorance of the principles of America and the Constitution.
the deification of something of which these right-wing politicians have no knowledge.

Who was it that said that "Hell is paved with good intentions?"

"Destroy America?" In what regard Charlie?

Answer: Not knowing what America and the political Enlightment of the Founding Fathers
really was.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

The point is clear. Osama represents the repression of free-thought in society. In this, he is a mirror image of Bush/McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:36 PM

Well I gotta say, I couldn't resist posting above in the way I did despite feeling that I "knew better", and I don't retract the substance of my point (what little there was), but I didn't get the vitriol I thought I might in response and I don't believe in Kicking a man when he's down.

So in the absence of the fighting attitude I'd expected, (and to some extent actually respect) I'll allow myself to admit that I agree with the point that the desire to destroy America is a crazy thing.

As all you Americans here know, ordinary American folk don't deserve to die and the twin towers tragedy was not justifiable in any way.

We can observe how things get so twisted and we can criticize our goverments and our "friends" and "enemies", but in answer to the question "why destroy america?" - well - in all fairness - none of us would want that.

And kendalls observation is also fair and didn't need to be hijacked, having less to do with any actual interest in destroying america but posing an interesting if unlikely reason why the US economy might be in trouble.

Its a thought provoking idea for a thread and didn't deserve such harsh treatment.

Pax

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM

A big part of the way the "War on Terror" is being sold to those of us in the US is the idea that there is a coordinated effort on the part of Islamic extremist (Al Qaeda being in the forefront of that effort) to destroy America.

A big part of the way the missile defense shield is being sold to those of us in the US is the idea that there are a lot of people in the world (rogue states and terrorist organizations) that want to destroy America.

If nobody is trying to destroy America, I think the taxpayers in this country would be a lot more circumspect about being willing to pay for those two programs. Which is why they're trying to convince us that there are a lot of people in the world who are trying to destroy this country.

But we have been assured here in this thread that nobody is trying to destroy America, so we can now inform the US electorate so that they (we) can prioritize how our tax dollars are being spent.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

Bin Laden said "the way to destroy America is to bankrupt their country".

Mission accomplished, I'd say, with the aid and abettance of Bush and the neocons. Despicable scum, all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

And of course it follows that it would be crazy fro an American President to want to destroy their own country.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:39 PM

Any large and aggressive empire has a way of producing a good many enemies who would wish to see it destroyed as time goes by...simply because they regard it as a threat to their existence and their way of life.

This was true of the Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, the Persian Empire, the Egyptian Empire, the Assyrian Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Japanese Empire, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, the Soviet Empire, the Napoleonic Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire, the British Empire, the Aztec Empire, and every other empire.

It is also true of the American Empire.

Empires end up being destroyed for one of two reasons, generally speaking:

1. Their military foes outfight them.
2. They become decadent and collapse from within.

In America's case, I think the latter danger is by far the greater one. In other words, the real enemy is within.

All things on this Earth are temporary, empires included.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,skarpi at work
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM

hee hee vote for McCain

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:47 PM

"We want to make the US government small enough to drown it in the bath tub." (Grover Norquist, anti tax whacko)

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Alice
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:00 PM

and now for....

How To NOT Answer The Question

did we just have 8 years of Republican administration or not?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Arkie
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM

I am a bit surprised at Teribus question about "who would want to destroy America?"   I seem to remember someone suggesting Saddam wanted to destroy America and was saving up to do just that so that the country is now engaged in stopping that destruction. Then there is rhetoric about Iran's intentions. I would have thought Osama's intentions would have been taken more seriously. I suspect that Osama considers it a victory of sorts to keep the USA engaged in Iraq for as long as he can since it is an expensive war in lives and dollars and since Osama is financed in part by oil proceeds he has an endless supply of funds again thanks to an administration and party that has catered to the oil industry and stonewalled alternative energy efforts for three decades.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Bert
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM

How to destroy America - vote Republican again.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:53 PM

I just read an unsubstantiated rumour that the Dems are seeking, for anyone who is upside down on their mortgage(s), a no-cost right to re-fi at a lower rate and at fair market value. Fire up your equity lines fast!

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:10 AM

What does that mean, fire up your equity lines?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:12 AM

Kendall, you surprise me. Teribus is right. Why would any rational person WANT to destroy America? An awful lot of people are taking terrible risks to get into the country. There must be some reason they prefer America to where they live now.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:57 AM

Doug, my friend, the key word here is "Rational". These extremists are not rational. Old saying, If you can't see the other guy's point of view, you would make a good lawyer."

Here again, Osama Bin Laden has told us in plain English why they hate us, and you still don't get it.You still prefer to believe that we are Mr. Clean and have done nothing but good around the world, and they are just jealous. HORSE SHIT!! Study some real history.

It's true that there are many people who want to come here, but there are many more who DON'T! You see? that's an example of why even our friends don't like us; arrogance.

We have shat on so many countries over the past 100 years, I'm surprised they haven't rebelled long ago. They have had enough, and they are fighting back any way they can.

Teribus is not wrong, just clueless.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:12 AM

Maybe the people in this thread who are saying that nobody wants to destroy America are right, though. Maybe nobody does want to destroy America, and our government and corporate media have been lying to us all this time when they have been going on and on about people wanting to destroy this country.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:48 AM

Armies need enemies to justify their existence. President Eisenhower warned us about the Military Industrial Complex. Did we listen?

From all I've gathered, it is my belief that we could defuse this whole problem by simply getting our infidel asses out of Muslim countries.If they are telling us the truth about their hatred for us, that would remove that reason to hit us.

What we have been doing for the last 8 years hasn't worked, so why not try it?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stu
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:14 AM

" Maybe nobody does want to destroy America, and our government and corporate media have been lying to us all this time when they have been going on and on about people wanting to destroy this country."

Well, it's worked for Bush and by selecting PanzerMom as his running mate the old warhorse McCain is making sure the tried and trusted formula of 'scare the living shit out of the population' approach to foreign policy and Homeland Security is staying current.

A doubtful, cowed and reticent population is easy to control (and sell stuff to).

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:01 AM

Pity that Mr T - the self alleged military expert says "If OBL, "...knows he can never beat us on the battle field.", why the hell is he trying to do it and why is he encouraging others to sacrifice themselves in this cause that he knows is lost, while he sits back fat dumb and happy in his cave somewhere along the Afghan/Pakistan border??".

It seems that he does not understand one of the basic principles of war - attrition.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:14 AM

Attrition? With a loss ratio of 20:1 OBL and Mullah Omar would appear not to understand it either, eh? Foolestroupe.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:52 AM

Fire up the equity lines means get your home mortgages and lines of credit up as much s possible, so that the taxpayers can eat it for you with that reduction (especially get it off the credit cards). But the rumour was probably wrong:

"Democrats may want to revisit their proposal of earlier this year to give bankruptcy judges power to lower the principal and interest rate of a home mortgage. At the moment, bankruptcy judges only have this power over vacation homes. The mortgage industry is firmly opposed to this measure."

Now THOSE are some choosey beggars!!

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM

"The only limitation would be that purchases couldn't exceed $700 billion *outstanding at any one time.*"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122191819568460053.html

Their task is to buy the worst of the worst, and negotiate with bankers on the price. The worst of the worst would be worth approximately zero, right? But we'll pay anyway. I can only assume that we don't get to mark them down further or write them off, then rush in for more.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 12:30 PM

Destroy America? No problem!

Vote Republican- works a treat!

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

Teribus, the answer to your question is so obvious, If you listen, and read) they believe that if you die in defense of Islam, you are a martyr and you go directly to paradise.That's why they continue this unwinable fight.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

Well as George S Patton once said:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM

Actually, anyone will continue an unwinnable fight as long as they are angry or bitter or proud enough not to want to stop fighting...or if their honour code demands "no surrender"...or if they feel morally justified in doing so...or for a variety of other reasons, depending on the situation. (And some do so simply because they have no other choice.)

Some examples of various of the above:

Jewish zealots at Masada.
Spartan Hoplites at Thermopylae.
The Apaches fighting the US Army.
Most Japanese troops during WWII.
The defenders of the Alamo.
The North Vietnamese troops who fought to the death in Hue and other locations during the Tet offensive.

To continue an unwinnable fight is seen as "noble" in some cases, it's seen as futile or foolish in others. This all depends on whether YOU identify with the people engaging in the unwinnable fight or not.

If you do, then they're seen as heroes. If you don't, then they're more likely seen as fools or even "villains"...although there are times when even a sworn foe is seen as noble for fighting an unwinnable fight against overwhelming odds.

Those who perished fighting unwinnable battles are celebrated in virtually every culture, and they are awarded the highest approbation by their people.

Thus, it is NOT necessary to be seen as "a martyr who is going directly to paradise" if you want sufficient motivation to engage in an unwinnable fight. No. It is only necessary to feel that your cause is just, and the Muslim fighters clearly believe that their cause is just, don't they?

This constant reiteration in the media of their religious motivations is a form of western propaganda that seeks to sidestep and discount other and much larger issues...since there are real, practical issues entirely aside from religious matters which are behind their grim resolve to fight. Religion plays a key part in motivating them, yes...but if they were all atheists they would still have plenty of reason to be angry at America, and plenty of motivation to fight.

People have always been willing to die for whatever they believed in. It doesn't have to be something religious. Their "paradise" is merely this: the absolute assurance, in their own minds, that they are right and that those they are fighting against are wrong.

That is what people really die for.

(It's what keeps the people here eternally arguing with each other too.)