BS: How to destroy America

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM

>>>Well as George S Patton once said:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."<<

Lots of such sacrifices have contributed more to wars than clearer victories. The Viet Nam war being the best example.

But if you want one where your side won...
What about the Alamo?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

first, do like Bush,....trash the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:10 PM

A great many "bastards" have won wars by dying for their country. Patton was just saying the kind of thing he enjoyed saying to people to show what a rugged, no-nonsense, "hands-on" type of guy he was. ;-) A lot of Patton's men died winning that war.

Here's another interesting example of a hero who died fighting a hopeless battle against absolutely unbeatable odds, and who refused to surrender:

Lord Grenville, commander of the English galleon "Revenge". He has been celebrated for centuries for fighting an incredible but hopeless battle against a much larger number of Spanish galleons. It ended, inevitably, with the death of Lord Grenville and most of his men, and the loss of the Revenge and several Spanish vessels...but it has given generations of British schoolboys something to be inspired by.

And rightly so, I would say. He helped win a lengthy naval campaign by dying for his country.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:22 PM

Our own revolution is a good example of fighting the good fight. The colonials under Washington lost almost every battle except Trenton and Yorktown, yet, they continued for 7 long years against the most powerful country in the world.

If not for the help of Baron Stuben and LaFayette they would not have won at all. We would have ended up speaking English. Oh, wait... what happened there?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:24 PM

Old Irish saying, "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees." You don't have to be Irish to think like that.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

"I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."

How did the old man in Catch 22 counter that one?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:42 PM

Carol C: I don't know to whom you are referring when you express surprise that someone on this forum might question who would want to destroy America. In my post I opined that no RATIONAL person would want to. I don't consider the terrorists rational. I wouldn't think anyone on this forum would.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

The "Tay-Rists" are about as rational as the lunatic religious fundagelicals the Republicans are pandering to with Palin- ANOTHER good way to destroy the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

No rational person wants to destroy any nation, Doug, but rational people often want to destroy various ruling political regimes...for a great variety of quite rational reasons. The USA itself is fond of engineering "regime change" where and when it wants to, for example. Why should it be surprising that others might want to engineer regime change in the USA if they could figure out a way to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM

"Sink me the ship, Master Gunner - sink her, split her in twain!
Fall into the hands of God, not into the hands of Spain!"

By the bye it was Sir Richard Grenville, not Lord Grenville, the decision to fight was forced upon him because the number of crew he had ashore when the Spaniards were sighted.

As for, "He helped win a lengthy naval campaign by dying for his country." Sir Richard Grenville's actions didn't affect the outcome one jot by dying for his country, what he did do was lose one of Elizabeths best warships. Lord Thomas Howard of Effingham did more to ensure English naval supremacy over the Spanish by fleeing, thus saving his ships which enabled them to fight another day.

While allied soldiers died LH, more Germans died perfectly illustrating and lending weight to what General George S Patton said.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM

"Attrition? With a loss ratio of 20:1 OBL and Mullah Omar would appear not to understand it either, eh? Foolestroupe."

I never said the guy was playing with a full deck, T.... :-) But then the 'attrition rate' was pretty high in Vietnam too - if you have no 'advanced military technology', the only way to 'even things up' is with huge numbers of human lives. The Afghans did that against Russia too... The North Koreans tried that too... was a damn close thing at times, according to those who were there....



"there are times when even a sworn foe is seen as noble for fighting an unwinnable fight against overwhelming odds."

Turkey & Australia have a long lasting closeness after Gallipoli a resounding win for the Turks, and a nasty defeat for the British/Aussies - the Aussies still consider Gallipoli one of out most 'glorious combats'.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:58 PM

I was mostly responding to the points made by the original person in this thread who has asserted that nobody wants to destroy America. That person is not the one who is asking me if I was referring to them.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

He has been termed "Lord Grenville" in some accounts I've read, Teribus, and we are clearly talking about the same man, Sir Richard Grenville, so spare me your tendentious nitpicking.

He helped the English win that war by:

1. doing the Spanish considerable material damage in the battle and damaging their morale as well.

and much more than that by:

2. giving the English a gloriously heroic and tragic incident to inspire their fighting men on to further efforts and sacrifices.

You know as well as I do that the English nation loves an account of a valorous fight against overwhelming odds as well as any nation does, thrills to it, and has used such accounts to inspire further generations of young men to go out and fight for England.

That is just stating the painfully obvious. It's normal for nations to be inspired by such incidents.

You, sir, would probably argue all day with a dog if it barked at you or a tree that you drove into while admiring yourself in your rearview mirror, just because your overweaning bloody ego can't resist the impulse to do so. You're a fecking bore with a really bad attitude. Since you so clearly detest the politics and the beliefs of most of the people who inhabit this forum, why don't you go to some other forum that suits you better? Or are you just here for the aggravation?

****

By the way, the Germans in the overall course of WWII succeeded in killing considerably more Allied soldiers than their own losses suffered in personnel. They did not lose the war because of a poor differential in the inflicted body count, they lost the war because they were very heavily outnumbered in men, munitions, and industrial capacity, and because they were being led by an extremely unstable man and a criminal administration which had a talent for making enemies of most of the other nations in the world, and because their overall objectives were unrealistic. Given those liabilities, anyone else would have lost too.

Their chances of winning after 1942 were absolutely nil, because they had bitten off way more than they could chew. Germany does not and never had the industrial capacity to simultaneously fight Britain, Russia, and the USA. It could only end in a German defeat.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:17 PM

Estimated A; Qaeda in Afghanistan: 9000
Estimated US troops: 19000
"if you have no 'advanced military technology', the only way to 'even things up' is with huge numbers of human lives. The Afghans did that against Russia too.."

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: meself
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM

Quarrel? Why, you, sir, would quarrel with a man for cracking nuts, simply because your eyes are hazel! If we had two such jacks, there would soon be none, for each would slay the other! And yet you would tutor me for quarrelling!


(Or words to that effect).

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 10:31 PM

We sure don't need any damn foreigners to make our currency worthless. The process was started by the economic geniuses who moved into Washington with that superannuated movie star in 1981. Their discovery -- that you can combine low inflation with low unemployment by borrowing money from foreigners -- has been exploited by administrations of both parties ever since. It has made Ponzi schemers of us all.

With a little luck, in a couple of years we'll have a superannuated *beauty queen* for president. Perhaps her economic advisers will get us all hooked on chain letters.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:33 PM

How has America been destroyed?

First you use the courts. The Supreme Court is best.
The Constitution and judicial decisions were always found on the presumption of liberty. Liberty was the guiding light for court decisions.
For the last 30 years the concept of liberty as the foundation of decisions has given way to a foundation of the fight of government to complete and total authority!! (read the book (the dirty dozen) about 12 cases that subverted the Constituion toward Government power and away from Liberty.

Then you rig the economy and get rid of anti trust laws , unions, and banking regulations.


Establish new police powers and new police agencies.

Make Congress acessable only to big money lobbyists.

Let the Lobbyists right the laws.

AND   POOOOF    here we are.


PS owning the media and think tanks to dream up new rip off schemes speeds things up

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:51 AM

Nonsense LH, during the reign of Elizabeth I, "naval" operations against the Spanish amounted to little more than licensed piracy. What damaged the Spanish more than any vain glorious action on the part of Sir Richard Grenville or the English, was the contribution of the Dutch who both on land (They won their independence and kicked the Spanish out of the Netherlands) and at sea completely mastered their enemy. While the English tried to capture one of the Spanish convoys from the New World and always failed, the Dutch actually succeeded.

Your statement about allied losses only holds true if you take into account the Russian front, where Russian losses were attributable to their tactics and Stalin's disregard for human life. In the west Allied losses were a fraction of those suffered by the Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:14 AM

well Drake captured Cacafuego - wasnt a convoy but carried enough gold to enrich the treasury and his investors many times over (along with the spices/tea etc) he brought from his spectacularly successful round the world voyage. So I wouldnt say thay always failed.

as far as the comment about attrition: even with a 20:1 loss ratio
the ratio doesnt matter so much as how willing a nation is to take that loss..

20to1 sounds a bit like vietnam? A million or so vietnamese, 56,000 Americans. who won that one. I actually think this 'empire' term that is tossed about is an overestimation, considering they cant really win in small third world countries such as Iraq, Afghanistan ..

never mind Vietnam and Korea.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:18 AM

My grandfather fought in WW1.
Occasionally he would tell of comrades being hounded over the top by their officers......in most cases to certain death.

War has no regard for human life.
Those who make war have no regard for either the "humans" or the "sub humans"
Those who defend war and the political systems which produce "global war", have no regard for those who are forced to prosecute their wars, or the innocents who will fall victim....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM

"as far as the comment about attrition: even with a 20:1 loss ratio
the ratio doesnt matter so much as how willing a nation is to take that loss.."

Now that I sort of like, I also liked the reference to Vietnam. Things depend on "how willing a nation is to take that loss.." - The US were comprehensively defeated in Vietnam because of the following:

- The folks back home did not have the will
- The war was being fought with completely disinterested conscripts, who were being poorly led.
- No appreciation of culture and people or application of "Hearts and Minds".

Now as far as Afghanistan goes:

- Within the current Administration and in either prospective administration come January 2009 I believe that the will is there. In the case of Obama if he follows his plans for a precipitate withdrawal from Iraq he'd better concentrate on Afghanistan because whoever finds themselves there after the US quits Iraq "a-la-Obama" plan is going to face a storm.

- The war is being fought by highly trained thoroughly motivated professionals who are inflicting serious losses on their enemies and have been doing so for the last seven years. This is unlike the Russian incursion, they like the US in Vietnam used a conscript army that was poorly equipped, lacked any motivation at all and who were appallingly poorly led - It completely exploded the myth of the invincibility of the "Red Army".

- Massive aid and reconstruction will improve the lot of the Afghan people, right now they are a damn sight better off than they have been at any time in the last 30 years and things are only going to improve for them.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

NASCAR for professionals http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/raceday.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

O'Bama said he would send more troops to Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

" The US were comprehensively defeated in Vietnam because of the following:

- The folks back home did not have the will

They knew the war was immoral and wrong.


- The war was being fought with completely disinterested conscripts, who were being poorly led.


- No appreciation of culture and people or application of "Hearts and Minds".

If they had any appreciation of culture at all there would have been no invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

"- Within the current Administration and in either prospective administration come January 2009 I believe that the will is there. In the case of Obama if he follows his plans for a precipitate withdrawal from Iraq he'd better concentrate on Afghanistan because whoever finds themselves there after the US quits Iraq "a-la-Obama" plan is going to face a storm."

The storm has already occurred as innocent people have been bombed. Regardless,
the poppies are still being grown for a large percentage of the world's narcotics.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM

The war in Vietnam was lost the day it started. Inasmusch as there was no defined event or point that could be ccalled "winning", it started as a commitment to a non-existent ruling power and wentdownhill from there.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM

in the later part of the Afghan war the Soviet conscript army in Afghanistan was gradually replaced by the Spetznaz - not that it made any difference. The use of US stinger missiles helped too.

but the attrition is having its desired effect on the wills of the western nations.
see the french are talking about pulling out after the recent loss of about 9 or 10 soldiers,
germany is likewise having a difficult time convincing the public - and in Canada which has had about a hundred killed prime minister Stephen Harper publicly admitted that by 2011 Canada will not be in a combat role in Afghanistan. (the Taliban know theres an election coming up in Canada and have stepped up their attacks)

I actually agree with you here Teribus that the West should stabilize and rebuild Afghanistan, however Im doubtful that there really is the will for the long term..
In a recent frontline documentary about the Canadians in some distant Kandahar outpost.. it struck me just how inept the whole thing was. To build good will the Canadians promised to repair the local villagers generators - but turns out they didnt have the parts. So they went out to purchase some needed parts - but hey theres no Canadian Tire anywhere in sight and the local towns didnt have anything - and on their excursion they ended up shooting up some locals who got to close to them. Later they convinced the nearby villages to come to the base for free medical care and when many of them did (at great risk of Taliban reprisal) hundreds were turned away when the Canadian Doctors ran out of supplies. ?!   (Geez why not just buy new generators and plan a bit better with the supplies)..

Later that base was shut down.. You can imagine how the Taliban dealt with those who had been friendly with the Canadians..

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM

The goal isn't to stabilize and rebuild Afghanistan (if it was, it would have been done already). The goal is to create a pretext for the US and some other Western countries to build and maintain permanent bases in Afghanistan (and Iraq). That's why they haven't made a credible effort to win hearts and minds, and they've done everything they possibly could to piss off the local populace.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:32 PM

The Opium trade my dear is a gift that keeps on giving.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:21 PM

"How to destroy America"


                   Elect Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

Here is another way to look at it...

Henry the bank teller looks at his pocket watch, a talisman of his that reminds him of his great grandfather who supposedly worked at a bank in Nebraska during the Wild West.
"11:11 AM" he mutters and checks the time against the big Congressional Bank lobby clock.
Just then two men staunchly swagger straight for his window without stopping at the receipt counter. One was average height and walked loosely the other one was stout and menacing. The gangly guy spoke in a near Texan accent that mimicked an authoritarian tone but sounded just palin silly. "Gimme all yer cash, I gotta start a war and I'm ina hurry". "We're all dead if you don't" grumbled the little fat guy.

Henry pressed the silent alarm with his right big toe, sending a signal to the media and the bank manager. "How much do you need sir?"
"Quit yer stallin and give me the cash!" Henry could see Mr. Rockefeller, the manager, approach. "Hiya George, I'm Mr. R, we were expecting you, but these things are usually done in the board room…Henry? its OK Mr. G and Mr. D are with big oil and what ever they need is fully approved. how much to start George"
"Gimme all ya got". Mr. R chuckles and motions for Henry to go to the vault for the large parcel.

Henry gets Ken and Rudy to get the        forklift loaded with wrapped money on the way to the loading dock. "What was that all about Henry? said Ken, "I don't know, I've never seen anything like it, and Mr. R said not to put it on the books!"

This goes on for years while Henry's boss brags about buying super sub prime machine gunned loans with a front end loader and bundled security package. With all the mondy going out the back door without any records of it Henry thinks about what his Grandfather would do. This had all the ear marks of a heist.

Its September and sure enough Henry sees George furtively heading for his teller window. This time his partner is tall thin and bald.
"Gimme everthin an this time I really mean everything , make it quick, I got Dick waitin in the car.!" Henry braces himself and for only the second time in 7 years he presses the alarm. This time the alarm is also connected to police agencies.

Henry timidly asks "What is it for?"
"I don't have time to tell you what for, the world will end if ya don't hurry up, now git goin". 'BLAM' Everyone turns toward the sound and sees Dick with a rifle standing over a man in his nineties laying on the sidewalk .
"SHeeit, not agin" snarled George.

Two police were now headed into the bank, one tall and black with a Sheriff badge and the other a white haired detective.
"Whats going on here?" asked the Sheriff. George chimes in impatiently but without confidence, "I need $700 Billion dollars in a hurry and that's just fer starters!"

The Sheriff asks both Henry and George "Is this a planned withdrawal?
"YES" "NO" said George and Henry. The Detective waves his hand in dismissal and says, "There are no laws being broken here, this here is a deregulated bank, let him carry out his plan."
George barks "Comon already I'm inna huury I got Dick out there and he jus might shoot someone else if this takes any longer!"

The Black Sheriff asks quietly "What is your plan, man to man?"
"We don't have time for plans, we gotta take this money right now before we close the banks" Henry springs into action, "You're nothing but a filthy lying crook you..#@#*#:
Detective McCain breaks up the scuffle with just one powerful forearm .

"He's right we don't have time to discuss this money what its for where it s going and who we are going to give it to"
The Black Sheriff looks at the Detective and raises one eyebrow like Spock "..and who WE are going to give it too? ..You are in on this too?"
"No well I mean uh the plan is fundamentally sound I mean the people are fundamentalists and they need…aw shit''' RUN FOR IT BOYS"
The Detective races for the door in his walker while George and the bald guy head for Dick's getaway car….

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:03 PM

Did all of this come about because the people elected a black sheriff?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 02:00 AM

Guest petr - the French Parliament actually voted to INCREASE the number of troops serving in Afghanistan. The UK will also increase troop levels as will the US.

CarolC I can remeber those on this forum banging on without one shred of justification about:

- CPA is here to stay: Not true was it?
- US wants permanent bases in Iraq: UN Mandate ends December this year and all foreign troops out by 2011? The permanent bases are where CarolC?
- US only in Iraq to "steal" Iraq's Oil: Not one barrel has been stolen has it CarolC? And the Iraqi Government is completely free to deal with whoever they want - True?

Internationally, Frank, in "Cold War" terms Vietnam was a success if the "domino theory" was ever to be believed. Because although the US lost militarily because of lack of political will at home, it showed "communist" Russia that "capitalist" America could afford to pay for the war, while they plainly could not. In short the game was not worth the candle, so the Russians gave up - The Chinese backed attempt at the same game had already been defeated in Malaya and in Borneo.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM

Time will tell on all of those points. None of them have been resolved yet.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:36 AM

...and none of them will be resolved while the current administration is in office (nor even during a McCain administration if he gets elected), which tends to support what I said about the Bush administration's goals.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Lox
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:58 AM

Reminds me of blazing saddles.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

if the "domino theory" was ever to be believed

Oh, yeah- the Domino Theory. Along with the tooth fairy & intelligent design.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:22 AM

Teribus misunderstands the unspeakable greed that is merely the extreme representation of that that is present in all human nature. The majority can exhibit restraint, given the mores to follow. But put a few grabbers in the pack and the trickle down effect is swift. If there is little reward in being used as fodder - you might as well be holding the cannon. And society then assumes a new norm.
Look at litter (ignore the disease laden vermin), look at borrowing (ref Credit crunch), look at the standard of driving (in the UK anyway) and "community" is no longer based on geography - where it exists now.

Until it hits their pockets, little will change.

And water is a far more serious commodity in short supply. How full is Lake Mead?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:22 AM

The domino effects works very well in markets but when it was propogandized that South East Asia was going to "fall to Communism it is a failed propoganda tool.

The Tooth fairy and intelligent design are at least a manmade constructs that comfort children. Its when adults belive it too that things get dicey

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

"We don't have time to wait!" says John McCant
We have to pass the Bush Paulson Plan NOW

Have you seen the Bush Paulson plan?

It is 2 pages long.

"give us the money - and no one gets hurt!"

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

On those points that according to CarolC that haven't been resolved yet:

1. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA)

"Citing UN Security Council Resolution 1483 (2003), and the laws of war, the CPA vested itself with executive, legislative, and judicial authority over the Iraqi government from the period of the CPA's inception on April 21, 2003, until its dissolution on June 28, 2004."

I'd say that for something that was predicted by the chattering left as never going to be disbanded and was going to be used by the "evil US Administration of George W. Bush" to make Iraq into some sort of US colony it's pretty much resolved CarolC. It ceased to exist four and a quarter years ago!!!!

2. US - Permanent Bases in Iraq

Current and final UN Security Council Mandate for MNF troops expires on 31st December, 2008 - That's about 100 days away CarolC - I ask again where are these permanent US bases in Iraq?? The Governments of the USA and Iraq (Note CarolC Government of Iraq not the CPA) are negotiating conditions for continued presence of US troops in Iraq until 2011 at the latest by which time ALL foreign troops must be out of Iraq (Express wish of the Iraqi Government) - There are no permanent US bases in Iraq are there CarolC?? So I'd count that as being pretty much resolved as well.

3. All about Oil - US in Iraq to "steal" Iraq's Oil

This used to be quite a popular notion here on mudcat. No-ones so vocal about it know as the first deals appear to have been struck with people the Iraqi's did business with before, namely French, Russians and Chinese. Oh dear not so much as a single barrel of oil "stolen" by those "big-bad-Americans", Dianavan must be mortified. Until such time as someone can prove that this has happened I'd say that this particular issue, always in practical terms a non-starter, is resolved as well.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM

Maybe the most disturbing thing is, when Paulson and those other guys get up there to talk, they all act like this is breaking news to them. Where have they been the last several years?

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM

US troops are still in Iraq. The US government thinks it has a right to dictate policy to the Iraqi government. The US government is working very hard to try to persuade the Iraqi government to sign an agreement to let US forces remain in that country indefinitely. The US is still trying to persuade the Iraqi legislature to sign away Iraq's rights to its oil, and to agree that US forces and private contractors will not be accountable to Iraqi law. There are US bases in Iraq now, and they were built as permanent bases, not as temporary bases.

The goal was not to stabilize and rebuild Iraq. The goal was to create a pretext for maintaining permanent bases in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 10:26 PM

And why not? We have to station unemployed Americans somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:03 PM

We like a good government but all governments are corrupt in some way. Just like the Mafia we enjoy a good mafia to do the protection work and find stuff that falls off trucks around the world. When our mafia has a stupid godfather and every caper gets screwed up we get upset. When someone in the Mafia does business that ends up costing the whole family, you know what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

My recipe.

1. Fail to discourage teenagers especially, but any single women from having children out of wedlock.

2. Teach only academic subjects in high school, with a sink or swim attitude. Do not under any circumstances teach classes that would actually teach them work skills and get them jobs.

3. Encourage teenagers to really express themselves, in as public a manner and as foul a language as they want.

4. Build crummy buildings and strip malls on your best agricultural lands.

5. Discharge sewage into your drinking water.

6. Build out of very flimsy materials in the path of floods, hurricanes, fires etc. When something happens, rebuild with the same materials.

7. Subsidize "art" that is obscene and profane simultaneously if possible.

8. Pay farmers to grow tobacco and too much corn.

9. Overprescribe medication to too many people and spend no more than 15 minutes with any one patient.

10. Expect that teens will make good choices if merely exposed to them.

11. well, more later. mg

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

Sounds normal to me.

but #7 put me out of business.

Subject: RE: BS: How to destroy America
From: kendall
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:09 PM

Put more republicans in Washington. They have done a great job of it so far, let them finish us off.